Author Topic: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone  (Read 15744 times)

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Online Dugout DickStone

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2012, 09:45:40 PM »

Second, what on earth is the federal government doing blocking this at all? More ad hoc anti business bullshit rationalized with post hoc bullshit excuses.


I agree with this. The pipeline should have been killed when Nebraska killed it. The federal government shouldn't have been given the opportunity to intervene.

San legitimate Health, Safety and Welfare concerns, which there were none, the State has no right to interfere with private property rights and the ability of private parties to contract. 


We agree that the state has no right to interfere with private property rights of those who refuse to contract with Trans by taking through eminent domain. 



Now, it just seems we disagree about the role this pipeline will play in gas prices in the midwest.  Surely, you would accept Trans statistics or forecasts on this issue?

I think you are coming around to being a real conservative!


Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2012, 10:14:40 PM »
We agree that the state has no right to interfere with private property rights of those who refuse to contract with Trans by taking through eminent domain. 

Now, it just seems we disagree about the role this pipeline will play in gas prices in the midwest.  Surely, you would accept Trans statistics or forecasts on this issue?

First, I agree that the state should not interfere with personal property rights, however based on the New London interp of the 5th Amendment, the state does have that right.  Like it or not, you cannot disagree with this FACT.

Second, please tell me you aren't relying on the hatchet piece on Trans pasted below in concluding gas prices will go up in the MW due to the pipeline.  If so,  :facepalm:.  Even the "studies", performed by left leaning think tanks, revealed an immaterial effect on gas prices.  Furthermore, even if WTI were to actually skip on by the MW and go overseas for refining, that gas ultimately ends up right back here in the US.  Increasing the supply of fuel refined with lower input costs isn't going to make it more expensive.  If anything, it would further force OPEC to increase Brent Crude production, which also would reduce the cost of gas.  The left is basically arguing that the Bakken and Canadian WTI is going to be pumped off the face of the earth.

from TransCanada Studies:

It would cost Midwesterners more in fuel prices if Keystones went through! 

“Rather than providing the US with more Canadian oil, Keystone XL will simply shift oil from the Midwest to the Gulf Coast, where much of it can be exported to international buyers – decreasing US energy supply and increasing the cost of oil in the American Midwest,” concludes a new study by the Natural Resources Defense Council, a New York-based environmental advocacy non-profit group, citing numerous TransCanada studies and the transcripts of Canadian federal hearings.

But that is not merely Verleger’s opinion. It’s based on findings of the economic consultants hired by TransCanada – contained in their analyses of the pipeline’s impact on Canadian oil producers and in official testimony before Canada's National Energy Board.
“Existing markets for Canadian heavy crude, principally [the US Midwest], are currently oversupplied, resulting in price discounting for Canadian heavy crude oil,” concludes a 2009 analysis on behalf of TransCanada by Purvin & Gertz, Inc., an oil economics firm based in Houston. “Access to the [US Gulf Coast] via the Keystone XL Pipeline is expected to strengthen Canadian crude oil pricing in [the Midwest market] by removing this oversupply. This is expected to increase the price of heavy crude to the equivalent cost of imported crude.”


http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/46689167/ns/us_news-christian_science_monitor/#.T1rd0fFmLl8

Regardless, the gas prices argument (up, down or the same), remains a red herring in what should be an argument regarding the role of government in our economy.  Let markets decide these battles, not some neerdowell parading around as Commander in Chief who owes manbearpig a political favor.

To date, I have yet to read a coherent and legitimate argument justifying the irrational decision to bureaucratically stonewall this project.  It's politics, end of story.

I don't give a crap if you call yourself conservative, liberal, blue, red or green, the conclusions you've drawn regarding this issue are idiotic and uninformed, and can't possibly be based on any known set of economic principles.

How building something as simple as a pipe, the likes of which have been built and buried in this country for decades, can create a whole new brand of science and economics, is an giant red flag as to the motives and truthfulness of the claims of its opponents.  Anyone who is even remotely interested in engaging in cognitive discourse regarding this issue can see that. 
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Offline 06wildcat

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2012, 10:15:33 PM »

1.  I personally know a someone that sold an easement already.  I assume you can look at the public land records where the easements are recorded if you don't believe me.  As with everything else said in opposition of this pipe, the eminent domain argument appears completely made up and yet another post-hoc rationalization (remember, this started as an "environmental" argument and only later evolved into all this other crap).  I haven't seen that anywhere.  Regardless, it certainly passes Constitutional muster as set forth in City of New London, and a fair price would be paid for the inconvenience of not being able to use an 80 foot swath of land for 1 growing season.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-texas-pipeline-20120217,0,35763.story?page=1&track=rss

 :users:

Online Dugout DickStone

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2012, 10:23:00 PM »

1.  I personally know a someone that sold an easement already.  I assume you can look at the public land records where the easements are recorded if you don't believe me.  As with everything else said in opposition of this pipe, the eminent domain argument appears completely made up and yet another post-hoc rationalization (remember, this started as an "environmental" argument and only later evolved into all this other crap).  I haven't seen that anywhere.  Regardless, it certainly passes Constitutional muster as set forth in City of New London, and a fair price would be paid for the inconvenience of not being able to use an 80 foot swath of land for 1 growing season.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-texas-pipeline-20120217,0,35763.story?page=1&track=rss

 :users:

FSD thinks it is awesome that a large foreign corporation can use American courts to take property rights from private citizens.

read that again, than laugh.

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2012, 10:24:35 PM »

1.  I personally know a someone that sold an easement already.  I assume you can look at the public land records where the easements are recorded if you don't believe me.  As with everything else said in opposition of this pipe, the eminent domain argument appears completely made up and yet another post-hoc rationalization (remember, this started as an "environmental" argument and only later evolved into all this other crap).  I haven't seen that anywhere.  Regardless, it certainly passes Constitutional muster as set forth in City of New London, and a fair price would be paid for the inconvenience of not being able to use an 80 foot swath of land for 1 growing season.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-texas-pipeline-20120217,0,35763.story?page=1&track=rss

 :users:

Those people are called "hold-outs" you twit.   :facepalm:  Operating under the age old premise, the last one to sell gets the most money.  Were you people raised in a closet?  None of this is new.  This type of thing has been going on for decades.

The article does offer some evidence re: private easement negs which Limestone requested
Quote
In Texas, the company already has easement agreements with 99% of the landowners along the pipeline route

Goodness gracious, the Pit is in full force tonight.
 
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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2012, 10:29:21 PM »

1.  I personally know a someone that sold an easement already.  I assume you can look at the public land records where the easements are recorded if you don't believe me.  As with everything else said in opposition of this pipe, the eminent domain argument appears completely made up and yet another post-hoc rationalization (remember, this started as an "environmental" argument and only later evolved into all this other crap).  I haven't seen that anywhere.  Regardless, it certainly passes Constitutional muster as set forth in City of New London, and a fair price would be paid for the inconvenience of not being able to use an 80 foot swath of land for 1 growing season.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-texas-pipeline-20120217,0,35763.story?page=1&track=rss

 :users:

FSD thinks it is awesome that a large foreign corporation can use American courts to take property rights from private citizens.

read that again, than laugh.

No road, pipes, utility lines, rail, cable television, internet could ever be planned and delivered if it weren't for eminent domain.  The law provides economic certainty to these types of providers when embarking on a project that one schmuck can't attempt to hold out forever in an attempt to gouge the "evil corporation". 

Use your brain.  The policy behind the law is one of free markets, you just can't comprehend it yet.
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Online Dugout DickStone

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2012, 10:31:21 PM »

1.  I personally know a someone that sold an easement already.  I assume you can look at the public land records where the easements are recorded if you don't believe me.  As with everything else said in opposition of this pipe, the eminent domain argument appears completely made up and yet another post-hoc rationalization (remember, this started as an "environmental" argument and only later evolved into all this other crap).  I haven't seen that anywhere.  Regardless, it certainly passes Constitutional muster as set forth in City of New London, and a fair price would be paid for the inconvenience of not being able to use an 80 foot swath of land for 1 growing season.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-texas-pipeline-20120217,0,35763.story?page=1&track=rss

 :users:

Those people are called "hold-outs" you twit.   :facepalm:  Operating under the age old premise, the last one to sell gets the most money.  Were you people raised in a closet?  None of this is new.  This type of thing has been going on for decades.

The article does offer some evidence re: private easement negs which Limestone requested
Quote
In Texas, the company already has easement agreements with 99% of the landowners along the pipeline route

Goodness gracious, the Pit is in full force tonight.

And tough crap to the 1%.  HOME OF THE FREE!

Don't be a fake conservative.  Because advocating for eminent domain is just that.

Online Dugout DickStone

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2012, 10:33:47 PM »

1.  I personally know a someone that sold an easement already.  I assume you can look at the public land records where the easements are recorded if you don't believe me.  As with everything else said in opposition of this pipe, the eminent domain argument appears completely made up and yet another post-hoc rationalization (remember, this started as an "environmental" argument and only later evolved into all this other crap).  I haven't seen that anywhere.  Regardless, it certainly passes Constitutional muster as set forth in City of New London, and a fair price would be paid for the inconvenience of not being able to use an 80 foot swath of land for 1 growing season.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-texas-pipeline-20120217,0,35763.story?page=1&track=rss

 :users:

FSD thinks it is awesome that a large foreign corporation can use American courts to take property rights from private citizens.

read that again, than laugh.

No road, pipes, utility lines, rail, cable television, internet could ever be planned and delivered if it weren't for eminent domain.  The law provides economic certainty to these types of providers when embarking on a project that one schmuck can't attempt to hold out forever in an attempt to gouge the "evil corporation". 

Use your brain.  The policy behind the law is one of free markets, you just can't comprehend it yet.


mods, change screename to "fake conservative dick not to be confused with someone who actually advocates a free market"


Offline 06wildcat

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2012, 11:09:21 PM »
Quote
No road, pipes, utility lines, rail, cable television, internet could ever be planned and delivered if it weren't for eminent domain.  The law provides economic certainty to these types of providers when embarking on a project that one schmuck can't attempt to hold out forever in an attempt to gouge the "evil corporation".

So you agree with Kelo then.

Offline ednksu

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2012, 11:48:07 PM »
I love that every legitimate argument opposing FSD's type of tyrant is a "red herring", symptomatic of hold outs, or a bastardization of legitimate political discourse.  Dunning it to the max.
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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2012, 09:46:30 PM »
I love that every legitimate argument opposing FSD's type of tyrant is a "red herring", symptomatic of hold outs, or a bastardization of legitimate political discourse.  Dunning it to the max.

There are three arguments "opposing SD", each with their own blatant fallacy.

You should try incorporating reason and logic in your life.  Start by using your brain.
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Offline ednksu

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2012, 11:04:01 AM »
I love that every legitimate argument opposing FSD's type of tyrant is a "red herring", symptomatic of hold outs, or a bastardization of legitimate political discourse.  Dunning it to the max.

There are three arguments "opposing SD", each with their own blatant fallacy.

You should try incorporating reason and logic in your life.  Start by using your brain.

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Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2012, 12:39:16 PM »
Bump:

Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline kstatefreak42

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2012, 02:35:19 PM »
Keystone Pipeline should be the last thing on your mind. We have bigger issues as a nation than a rough ridin' pipeline. Who gives a eff. Ride a bike.
EMAW

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2012, 02:56:42 PM »
Keystone Pipeline should be the last thing on your mind. We have bigger issues as a nation than a rough ridin' pipeline. Who gives a eff. Ride a bike.

If all of your posts were like this, you would be a much better poster. :cheers:

Offline Stupid Fitz

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2012, 05:28:43 PM »
Can't wait until repub is pres so the media will get pissed about high gas prices again.

Offline HeinBallz

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Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2012, 07:38:38 PM »
Keystone Pipeline should be the last thing on your mind. We have bigger issues as a nation than a rough ridin' pipeline. Who gives a eff. Ride a bike.

Maybe I'll get Ron Paul or Gary Johnson to narrate for you so you'll listen to the arguments and understand what it's about.


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Offline sys

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2012, 08:08:28 PM »
Maybe I'll get Ron Paul or Gary Johnson to narrate for you so you'll listen to the arguments and understand what it's about.

i'd like to think that johnson is smarter than to indulge in the goldbuggery with which paul has infected the libertarians.  i trust that his equivocations on the issue are merely to avoid alienating the weirdos, rather than out of any true belief in the utility of a gold standard.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline p1k3

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2012, 08:32:13 PM »
Maybe I'll get Ron Paul or Gary Johnson to narrate for you so you'll listen to the arguments and understand what it's about.

i'd like to think that johnson is smarter than to indulge in the goldbuggery with which paul has infected the libertarians.  i trust that his equivocations on the issue are merely to avoid alienating the weirdos, rather than out of any true belief in the utility of a gold standard.

Remember, we are 16 trillion dollars in debt. Paul just uses the gold standard to troll the establishment.

Offline HeinBallz

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Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2012, 08:32:38 PM »
This video isn't advocating for the gold standard near as much as it is against the fiat dollar.


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Offline p1k3

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #70 on: July 20, 2012, 08:36:55 PM »
This video isn't advocating for the gold standard near as much as it is against the fiat dollar.


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exactly. Just trying to educate people about the lolness of our system.

Offline sys

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2012, 11:20:35 PM »
This video isn't advocating for the gold standard near as much as it is against the fiat dollar.

the fiat dollar has been a huge success.  lol @ people that want to hide currency in their mattress for 50 years.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline sys

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Re: Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #72 on: July 20, 2012, 11:21:25 PM »
Remember, we are 16 trillion dollars in debt.

oh, well then.  now's a great time to change to a deflationary monetary policy.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline HeinBallz

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Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2012, 08:38:02 AM »
This video isn't advocating for the gold standard near as much as it is against the fiat dollar.

the fiat dollar has been a huge success.  lol @ people that want to hide currency in their mattress for 50 years.
If you consider a huge success creating an unstoppable  inflation, growing a bubble so large that it will inevitably pop; then well...  you must be a banker if you think that's success.   If you're attributing the fiat dollar to the  quality of life among all of society, you are horribly wrong. Innovation and technology has been the huge success and has nothing to do with a currency that isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  I would say the fiat dollar has had great consequence to the quality of life - because of its declining buying power - which is why I felt that video was relevant.


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Offline HeinBallz

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Gas prices up, and Obama is still fighting Keystone
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2012, 08:41:20 AM »
Sys, (or anyone really) please humor me.  In our system, how does the government introduce currency into the economy?


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