Just read the box score . . .

[kso_FAN]

Would agree with that, but Dennis and Jake are forced to do everything right now... I mean it seems like everyone stands around and is waiting for both of them to go off. The post guys get doubled and the oppo post just chills low and doesn't move to the high post or middle of the paint so our iso post game is now dogshit. If Fred Brown was around at least there would be more driving lanes and he could make some shots to lessen the pressure on Jake and Denny.... Speaking of Denny  everytime he made a hoop it was like he had to be a hero and started jacking up ridc. shots. 

True, but IMO this team has always been one that will go as far as Jake and Denis takes them.

And this is where McGruder needs to step up, and of course be given the opportunity.  He is a better shooter (IMO) than Fred ever was, and can do other things well like rebounding and getting to the rim. 

And I'm fine with how Denis plays, but it was pretty clear that Denis was pressing last night.

[ZmoneyKSU]

Would agree with that, but Dennis and Jake are forced to do everything right now... I mean it seems like everyone stands around and is waiting for both of them to go off. The post guys get doubled and the oppo post just chills low and doesn't move to the high post or middle of the paint so our iso post game is now dogshit. If Fred Brown was around at least there would be more driving lanes and he could make some shots to lessen the pressure on Jake and Denny.... Speaking of Denny  everytime he made a hoop it was like he had to be a hero and started jacking up ridc. shots. 

True, but IMO this team has always been one that will go as far as Jake and Denis takes them.

And this is where McGruder needs to step up, and of course be given the opportunity.  He is a better shooter (IMO) than Fred ever was, and can do other things well like rebounding and getting to the rim. 

And I'm fine with how Denis plays, but it was pretty clear that Denis was pressing last night.

Thank you Momma Clemente, lol

[westcoast_emawer]

I know this  :powerespect:,but how much better are going to be next season? I mean clemente is either feast or famine, colon has no business being on the court and merriweather...well is energy which is not much...Looks like a bunch of additon by subtraction to me...Plus If we can find some perimiter guys that can get to goal and finish and/or dish we should be fine.

Does anyone know anything about southwell's game? Much like a Cartier Martin? idk... spradling could 'shirt and I could really see JHR shirting which really wouldn't hurt him.  Asprilla as long as he isn't named colon should be alright... pretty sure I saw him at the game on saturday...wearing a celtics warm-up top.

[Kat Kid]

like _fan and kk said on the podcast, spradling has an opportunity to get a ton of minutes next year.  i don't think anyone here has an idea if he is an advanced enough player to take advantage of that opportunity, but there are minutes available.

I agree, sprads will have a ton of opportunity.  I still think the logjam at the 4/5 pushes us to go bigger across the board at some point and if we've learned anything this year it is that Frank will bench his freshman guards at the first sign on bad things.  Plus he has two dudes with 1 year experience that should be hungry for minutes ahead of him.  Unless Russell is just a complete stiff, he's going to get some minutes just because of his size.  Irving as well?  I'm not holding my breath on the great white hope.

I'm no expert, but if he plays more than irving this year, it will be a really troubling (like 9-7 conf bubble watch troubling)

[westcoast_emawer]

Does anyone think Frank would think about 'shirting JHR? Think about it... Kelley, jamsams, asprilla, and judge...is a lot. If he 'shirts he, gets 3 years to play instead of wasting next year, plus maybe by jamsams sr year he could potentially move to the 3 successfully, and JHR, Judge and Asprilla would be a good rotation inisde....JHR could definitley turn out to be better than that NBA big at Tulsa, don't know his name, but we cannot let him get away!

Think about not 2011 but 2012 if JHR 'shirts... could be 2 guards.....southwell(so), mcgruder(jr),spradling(so), irving(jr), russell(jr) and jamsams(sr) --3/4 Judge(jr)--4, and JHR(so)/Asprilla (sr) at 5.

[sys]

I'm no expert, but if he plays more than irving this year, it will be a really troubling (like 9-7 conf bubble watch troubling)

i'd go the opposite way.  if he gets minutes, it's because he's more ready than is commonly thought, which is good.



re. the big discussion, kelly was unstoppable last night.  unstoppable.

[westcoast_emawer]

I'm no expert, but if he plays more than irving this year, it will be a really troubling (like 9-7 conf bubble watch troubling)

i'd go the opposite way.  if he gets minutes, it's because he's more ready than is commonly thought, which is good.



re. the big discussion, kelly was unstoppable last night.  unstoppable.

Ya when they didn't double him... does anyone else wonder why our opposite big only stays low and doesn't move to the open spot in the lane?  Or why we don't use diagonal passes more often out of the double?

[kso_FAN]

Ya when they didn't double him... does anyone else wonder why our opposite big only stays low and doesn't move to the open spot in the lane?  Or why we don't use diagonal passes more often out of the double?

Our gameplan from doubling the big in the short corner has been to have the dribble out of the trap, and then try to swing the ball to the weakside either for a jumpshot, or for the other big posting.  In theory it should give us a major advantage, but usually it takes too long for the big to get the ball out and then for the swing to happen to take advantage of the defense.

[MakeItRain]

I'm no expert, but if he plays more than irving this year, it will be a really troubling (like 9-7 conf bubble watch troubling)

i'd go the opposite way.  if he gets minutes, it's because he's more ready than is commonly thought, which is good.



re. the big discussion, kelly was unstoppable last night.  unstoppable.

Ya when they didn't double him... does anyone else wonder why our opposite big only stays low and doesn't move to the open spot in the lane?  Or why we don't use diagonal passes more often out of the double?

Not sure what you have been watching, you can make a very compelling argument that this is the greatest strength of the big men.  It isn't as easy as you make it out to be, but the post-to-post pass is a staple of this team.  Most of Jamar's and Curtis' dunks this season are from post-to-post passes.  I counted 3 of those passes that Jamar dropped in the Mizzou game, it was pissing me off.

[Kat Kid]

Ya when they didn't double him... does anyone else wonder why our opposite big only stays low and doesn't move to the open spot in the lane?  Or why we don't use diagonal passes more often out of the double?

Our gameplan from doubling the big in the short corner has been to have the dribble out of the trap, and then try to swing the ball to the weakside either for a jumpshot, or for the other big posting.  In theory it should give us a major advantage, but usually it takes too long for the big to get the ball out and then for the swing to happen to take advantage of the defense.

especially when Lou is involved.

[Dugout DickStone]

I'm no expert, but if he plays more than irving this year, it will be a really troubling (like 9-7 conf bubble watch troubling)

i'd go the opposite way.  if he gets minutes, it's because he's more ready than is commonly thought, which is good.



re. the big discussion, kelly was unstoppable last night.  unstoppable.

Ya when they didn't double him... does anyone else wonder why our opposite big only stays low and doesn't move to the open spot in the lane?  Or why we don't use diagonal passes more often out of the double?

Not sure what you have been watching, you can make a very compelling argument that this is the greatest strength of the big men.  It isn't as easy as you make it out to be, but the post-to-post pass is a staple of this team.  Most of Jamar's and Curtis' dunks this season are from post-to-post passes.  I counted 3 of those passes that Jamar dropped in the Mizzou game, it was pissing me off.

Jam, Sut and ck always fumble those short passes.  Starting to think the guys down low have below average hands.  Like criminally below average.

[westcoast_emawer]

I'm no expert, but if he plays more than irving this year, it will be a really troubling (like 9-7 conf bubble watch troubling)

i'd go the opposite way.  if he gets minutes, it's because he's more ready than is commonly thought, which is good.



re. the big discussion, kelly was unstoppable last night.  unstoppable.

Ya when they didn't double him... does anyone else wonder why our opposite big only stays low and doesn't move to the open spot in the lane?  Or why we don't use diagonal passes more often out of the double?

Not sure what you have been watching, you can make a very compelling argument that this is the greatest strength of the big men.  It isn't as easy as you make it out to be, but the post-to-post pass is a staple of this team.  Most of Jamar's and Curtis' dunks this season are from post-to-post passes.  I counted 3 of those passes that Jamar dropped in the Mizzou game, it was pissing me off.

ya but it is when no one rotates down on the other big is the only time we get those buckets... when teams do double now, they are rotating much quicker from the high post area. Thus not allowing us to make that easy pass.  Also it doesn't help when sutton, colon, merrieweather are on the court their man can just sag off or sit in the lane.  It is literally killing us having to play 4 on 5 or at times 3 or 2 on 5.

[CatsFan_58]

OK C . . . the same talking point remains because we continue to lose home games because we don't have any Fred Brown guys on our team to possibly give us a shot of instant offense.   You can pull yourself off of Frank's nutsack anytime now . . . he's getting paid.

i like this point. we could really use freddy. you're wrong on this one okc, at least imo.

[OK_Cat]

Ahh, I love revisionist history.

In what planet was Fred Brown ever "instant offense?"

dax, this isn't about "defending frank"....it's about calling you an idiot (you're an idiot)

[OK_Cat]

More instant offense than 2 open scholarships . . .  this isn't hard.

You guys must live a very monolithic life where nothing can change, roles can't be created etc. etc. 

Situational basketball . . . it's not rocket surgery.

So your argument is that "maybe fred brown changed his horrible shot and would be a big role player" ???

Just admit that you're bitching for the sake of bitching, at least.

[westcoast_emawer]

nearly 50% behind the arc is instant offense...lethal shooters win games, look with Freddy we maybe only lose or two games and possible is the difference in the first KU game... if shooting was so easy everyone would score, but it is not. Like in baseball you can have all the athetes you want but you can't steal first base... difference is in bball your athletes can score, but usually not shoot. Shooters not only sell tickets, but win games as well.

[DeezMeister]

like _fan and kk said on the podcast, spradling has an opportunity to get a ton of minutes next year.  i don't think anyone here has an idea if he is an advanced enough player to take advantage of that opportunity, but there are minutes available.

I don't know nothing bout no podcast, but this is what I thought of Sprad's:  1) Real fast, 2) good ball handler (couldn't tell anything about passing cuz his team is so sh*tty)

Looking at our roster next year we seem to have a dearth of:  good ball handler's
We also will be noticeably short one really fast guy

take it for what it's worth, but that seems like a formula for Sprads PT

[MakeItRain]

I'm no expert, but if he plays more than irving this year, it will be a really troubling (like 9-7 conf bubble watch troubling)

i'd go the opposite way.  if he gets minutes, it's because he's more ready than is commonly thought, which is good.



re. the big discussion, kelly was unstoppable last night.  unstoppable.

Ya when they didn't double him... does anyone else wonder why our opposite big only stays low and doesn't move to the open spot in the lane?  Or why we don't use diagonal passes more often out of the double?

Not sure what you have been watching, you can make a very compelling argument that this is the greatest strength of the big men.  It isn't as easy as you make it out to be, but the post-to-post pass is a staple of this team.  Most of Jamar's and Curtis' dunks this season are from post-to-post passes.  I counted 3 of those passes that Jamar dropped in the Mizzou game, it was pissing me off.

ya but it is when no one rotates down on the other big is the only time we get those buckets... when teams do double now, they are rotating much quicker from the high post area. Thus not allowing us to make that easy pass. 

Again I have no idea what you are talking about.  You are pissed that a post can't make a post-to-post pass while doubled and the man he is trying to pass to is defended?  Are you high?  And again, making that pass while double teamed is never easy.

[westcoast_emawer]

No you dumbass, pissed our opposite big doesn't move instead of standing and watching a post guy get doubled. I think the other post should move towards the ball or the high post or how bout this... the middle of the lane which is wide rough ridin' open. Or the doubled go should throw a diagonal pass which is known as a skip pass. Or maybe our perimeter players move without the ball that is a hell of a concept.

GTFOOMF with this high crap bro... you don't know high if you aint from the west coast

I'm no expert, but if he plays more than irving this year, it will be a really troubling (like 9-7 conf bubble watch troubling)

i'd go the opposite way.  if he gets minutes, it's because he's more ready than is commonly thought, which is good.



re. the big discussion, kelly was unstoppable last night.  unstoppable.

Ya when they didn't double him... does anyone else wonder why our opposite big only stays low and doesn't move to the open spot in the lane?  Or why we don't use diagonal passes more often out of the double?

Not sure what you have been watching, you can make a very compelling argument that this is the greatest strength of the big men.  It isn't as easy as you make it out to be, but the post-to-post pass is a staple of this team.  Most of Jamar's and Curtis' dunks this season are from post-to-post passes.  I counted 3 of those passes that Jamar dropped in the Mizzou game, it was pissing me off.

ya but it is when no one rotates down on the other big is the only time we get those buckets... when teams do double now, they are rotating much quicker from the high post area. Thus not allowing us to make that easy pass. 

Again I have no idea what you are talking about.  You are pissed that a post can't make a post-to-post pass while doubled and the man he is trying to pass to is defended?  Are you high?  And again, making that pass while double teamed is never easy.

[MakeItRain]

No you dumbass, pissed our opposite big doesn't move instead of standing and watching a post guy get doubled. I think the other post should move towards the ball or the high post or how bout this... the middle of the lane which is wide fracking open. Or the doubled go should throw a diagonal pass which is known as a skip pass. Or maybe our perimeter players move without the ball that is a hell of a concept.

GTFOOMF with this high crap bro... you don't know high if you aint from the west coast

I'm no expert, but if he plays more than irving this year, it will be a really troubling (like 9-7 conf bubble watch troubling)

i'd go the opposite way.  if he gets minutes, it's because he's more ready than is commonly thought, which is good.



re. the big discussion, kelly was unstoppable last night.  unstoppable.

Ya when they didn't double him... does anyone else wonder why our opposite big only stays low and doesn't move to the open spot in the lane?  Or why we don't use diagonal passes more often out of the double?

Not sure what you have been watching, you can make a very compelling argument that this is the greatest strength of the big men.  It isn't as easy as you make it out to be, but the post-to-post pass is a staple of this team.  Most of Jamar's and Curtis' dunks this season are from post-to-post passes.  I counted 3 of those passes that Jamar dropped in the Mizzou game, it was pissing me off.

ya but it is when no one rotates down on the other big is the only time we get those buckets... when teams do double now, they are rotating much quicker from the high post area. Thus not allowing us to make that easy pass. 

Again I have no idea what you are talking about.  You are pissed that a post can't make a post-to-post pass while doubled and the man he is trying to pass to is defended?  Are you high?  And again, making that pass while double teamed is never easy.

Quote function is a bitch.

It's clear the closest to a post to post pass you have ever made is on x-box.  When a post man is doubled the things you are proposing are damn near impossible.  If you are on the block you really have to make that pass BEFORE the second defender arrives.  The best post passers recognize where the double is coming from and pass there while the defender is on the way.  If you wait it will likely be too late, bear in mind you are dealing with 2 defenders, a baseline, and possible 3 seconds.  Having to make that pass with 2 guys 6'7"+ is a whole hell of a lot different from seeing it on television.  Also bear in mind where the open spot is in this case is almost always where the arms of the defenders of the double is shading.

Alright the skip passes or passes to the perimeter is another story.  If the ball can get back out then you have something, but it will certainly not be on the first pass out but on the second or third since the defense is passing so much.

All this being said, you are missing the obvious, I have said it twice and I'll say it again since you are having a problem with the concept.  That post pass when doubled is not easy, like you think it is.  If it were easy no big man would ever be doubled. 

[westcoast_emawer]

Wow... I think I'm done posting here, gonna find some people that understand the game, thought goEMAW had some elite posters... that pass is not that hard... no one gets 3 seconds in college ball not named lou colon and again this idea/concept is used at high levels(ask KU's bigs they all can do it kick it to the high post or middle of the lane). I'm sure you've played an extremely high level and understand length and size since our posts guys can't handle it, are you at practice or do you play? Oh and I hope you like the quotes... just for you kanye 

No you dumbass, pissed our opposite big doesn't move instead of standing and watching a post guy get doubled. I think the other post should move towards the ball or the high post or how bout this... the middle of the lane which is wide fracking open. Or the doubled go should throw a diagonal pass which is known as a skip pass. Or maybe our perimeter players move without the ball that is a hell of a concept.

GTFOOMF with this high crap bro... you don't know high if you aint from the west coast

I'm no expert, but if he plays more than irving this year, it will be a really troubling (like 9-7 conf bubble watch troubling)

i'd go the opposite way.  if he gets minutes, it's because he's more ready than is commonly thought, which is good.



re. the big discussion, kelly was unstoppable last night.  unstoppable.

Ya when they didn't double him... does anyone else wonder why our opposite big only stays low and doesn't move to the open spot in the lane?  Or why we don't use diagonal passes more often out of the double?

Not sure what you have been watching, you can make a very compelling argument that this is the greatest strength of the big men.  It isn't as easy as you make it out to be, but the post-to-post pass is a staple of this team.  Most of Jamar's and Curtis' dunks this season are from post-to-post passes.  I counted 3 of those passes that Jamar dropped in the Mizzou game, it was pissing me off.

ya but it is when no one rotates down on the other big is the only time we get those buckets... when teams do double now, they are rotating much quicker from the high post area. Thus not allowing us to make that easy pass. 

Again I have no idea what you are talking about.  You are pissed that a post can't make a post-to-post pass while doubled and the man he is trying to pass to is defended?  Are you high?  And again, making that pass while double teamed is never easy.

Quote function is a bitch.

It's clear the closest to a post to post pass you have ever made is on x-box.  When a post man is doubled the things you are proposing are damn near impossible.  If you are on the block you really have to make that pass BEFORE the second defender arrives.  The best post passers recognize where the double is coming from and pass there while the defender is on the way.  If you wait it will likely be too late, bear in mind you are dealing with 2 defenders, a baseline, and possible 3 seconds.  Having to make that pass with 2 guys 6'7"+ is a whole hell of a lot different from seeing it on television.  Also bear in mind where the open spot is in this case is almost always where the arms of the defenders of the double is shading.

Alright the skip passes or passes to the perimeter is another story.  If the ball can get back out then you have something, but it will certainly not be on the first pass out but on the second or third since the defense is passing so much.

All this being said, you are missing the obvious, I have said it twice and I'll say it again since you are having a problem with the concept.  That post pass when doubled is not easy, like you think it is.  If it were easy no big man would ever be doubled. 

[swish1]

OK_c . . . I know this is hard for you, but Fred was 41% from behind the arc last year, that's better than anyone on the current team that's taken over 50 3's.   

Why do you insist on making this so hard??

those 8 points per game sure have been hard to replace...  hey, where were we ranked last year?

[michigancat]

why is this thread pinned?

And despite our lofty ranking, I would still happily trade Irving or Russell for Brown.

[Cire]

why is this thread pinned?

And despite our lofty ranking, I would still happily trade Irving or Russell for Brown.

this.  It's become painfully obvious that we are still in need of a 3 point shooter.  This was masked much of the year by pullen's numbers but he's under 40 right now.

[Andy]

K-State wins that game last night with Fred Brown... it is become very evident that our relying on our 2 guards is killing us.  Brown would atleast make ISU respect his ability to shoot....plus how nice would it be if Anderson was still here and taking all of Colon's minutes? I mean if you must get better year by year in Franks system why not sandbag as a frosh to look good later? Seriously? Maybe that is what Russell is doing, he is just ahead of the curve and will be like Burcs next year.

Its not like ISU was exerting some ridiculous pressure defense on Jake and Denis, I'd say at least 75% of the 3s they missed were good, open shots.  If we have a night like Saturday where both can't hit shots, the other guys we have on the roster really don't matter.

Yea, Denis took some pretty open shots just couldn't hit jack.  Then our post continued to not show up for another game, they're getting pretty good at that.

I don't know.  Kelly had a nice game offensively.  Jamar had his moments.

I think collectively we just didn't play with the type of effort we have been all year.  I understand that there are some games you are going to have less than perfect effort, and our guys have shown a propensity to do that against lower level competition, CU, NU, and ISU at home especially and it finally bit them.  Clearly when we don't play with that kind of effort and then combine that with an off night offensively, we can get beat by about anyone.

I also think part of this is a learning experience for Frank.  Last Saturday against MU was "the biggest game of the year", etc.  Then KU was "the biggest game of the year", etc.  Then you have ISU at home for SR night.  Baylor won earlier in the day, so you know you are #2 in the league no matter what.  What's left?

Granted, there is no real excuse for last night's performance, and there is reason for concern. 

i think if we attacked the rim in the first half like we did in the 2nd half we win with no real issue.  but its admittedly hard for this team to give up the 3 ball early, and generally with good reason.