Author Topic: Sideline play calling  (Read 3394 times)

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Offline Lefty

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Sideline play calling
« on: September 05, 2011, 10:01:35 AM »
HFBIQ only right here. Can someone explain what was going on with our playcalling? It wasn't Snyder's normal audible system that wore out the fans during the DOD. This seemed different.

-Why did we huddle up and then use the sideline check with me? Seems redundant.
-If Klein is so smart and HIQ QB type, why couldn't he audible himself?
-If I remember, we didn't do the check with me at all last year? GG's year we did it the entire year, but not so much last year.

There had to be a reason why Snyder used it so much? Was it strategy or necessity?


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Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 10:05:24 AM »
HFBIQ only right here. Can someone explain what was going on with our playcalling? It wasn't Snyder's normal audible system that wore out the fans during the DOD. This seemed different.

-Why did we huddle up and then use the sideline check with me? Seems redundant.
-If Klein is so smart and HIQ QB type, why couldn't he audible himself?
-If I remember, we didn't do the check with me at all last year? GG's year we did it the entire year, but not so much last year.

There had to be a reason why Snyder used it so much? Was it strategy or necessity?

We used check with me some last year when Klein played. I don't believe we did with Coffman.

Huddle then check with me is a good way to use time and control TOP.

Check with me also could show a distrust in the QB making his own checks at the LOS, but that can't be known for sure.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 10:11:29 AM »
Huddle + check with me is pretty much the most controlling and least efficient way to do things, so I guess it makes sense.  Thanks for the report from inside the walls of Mordor bros.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2011, 10:23:43 AM »
HFBIQ only right here. Can someone explain what was going on with our playcalling? It wasn't Snyder's normal audible system that wore out the fans during the DOD. This seemed different.

-Why did we huddle up and then use the sideline check with me? Seems redundant.
-If Klein is so smart and HIQ QB type, why couldn't he audible himself?
-If I remember, we didn't do the check with me at all last year? GG's year we did it the entire year, but not so much last year.

There had to be a reason why Snyder used it so much? Was it strategy or necessity?

We used check with me some last year when Klein played. I don't believe we did with Coffman.

Huddle then check with me is a good way to use time and control TOP.

Check with me also could show a distrust in the QB making his own checks at the LOS, but that can't be known for sure.

It's also a fantastic way to ensure that your offense has no timing or rhythm whatsoever.  Also a good way to not score points at halftime when you get the ball with 1:30 left and only 65 yards to the endzone.  Also an amazing way to use nearly 7 minutes of game clock on a drive with 7 minutes left in a game that you hadn't yet scored a touchdown.  If that fade weren't called and executed we would have simply ran out of time, a la Marshall '03 and a few other times.

Offline puniraptor

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 10:54:27 AM »
CHECK WITH ME  :comeatme:

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 11:22:20 AM »
I understand the criticisms of using a check with me system; I really don't care for it myself. However, I think many of the critiques in this thread simply stem from not liking it and being frustrated with an inept offensive performance, and much less from what actually happened in this game.

First, we didn't use it much on the first few drives and by the time we started to we had already established that we had very little offensive rhythm or momentum anyway. I think our lack of offensive rhythm came from poor execution of blocking assignments and just a real lack of physical play from our offensive line than any other part of the offensive scheme we used.

Second, I think there are sound reasons to use it, especially in this game the way EKU was shifting their front. If you use your play clock right, get out of the huddle with plenty of time to get the check, you can allow the defense to shift and give your players (particularly your young offensive line) time to adjust blocking schemes. Unfortunately it didn't work.

Third, the offense came together and finally sustained a drive to win the game. I don't see any sound logic in saying that check with me hurt us here because if something good had not happened (the fade to Harper) then something bad would have (running out of time, similar to Marshall, etc.). To me those things are mutually exclusive; the way it worked out an offense that had sputtered all day finally put together a really nice drive; never putting themselves in a situation longer than 3rd and 3 and overcaming a false start. All by mixing some QB run game, nice passing, and finally a well excuted pass over the top of the EKU defense. 86 yards in 11 plays, and the score came with 1:39 on the clock, hardly in danger at that point of running out of clock, even 33 yards from the endzone.

To me none of that successful drive had anything to do with using check with me or not during the rest of the game, but much more about the offense making plays they were capable of making the entire game.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2011, 11:34:24 AM »
Is there a very good reason to use huddle + check with me?  It seems there are more advantages to lining up quickly and trying to head off defensive substitutions.

Are we not giving Snyds enough credit and you think they will begin calling two consecutive plays in the huddle and doing 2nd down quick snaps ala Oklahoma with Bradford?

I just don't see what is gained by huddling up to start with.  Is it not training wheels upon training wheels?

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2011, 11:49:08 AM »
Is there a very good reason to use huddle + check with me?  It seems there are more advantages to lining up quickly and trying to head off defensive substitutions.

Are we not giving Snyds enough credit and you think they will begin calling two consecutive plays in the huddle and doing 2nd down quick snaps ala Oklahoma with Bradford?

I just don't see what is gained by huddling up to start with.  Is it not training wheels upon training wheels?

Either of those are sound ways to do things, but they go against Snyder's TOP control offense. I am surprised that in his 2nd tenure Snyder has gone the huddle/check with me route, perhaps that came from Dimel, but it does fit TOP control in the same way his audible/fake audible system did.

I don't think huddle/check with me is bad or unsound though, especially if you practice it and your players are comfortable doing it. I think its just another way to do things. If anything it seems that Snyder is trying to things similar to how he used to, but is showing a distrust in QBs making decisions at the LOS OR he was influenced by his staff to use huddle/check with me instead of the QB audible system (which we still use some as well).

As far as why to use the huddle; it still allows you to have a play call and all players on the same page, and the check allows you to do the same thing as an audible at the LOS does, just in a different way. In theory the check with me should allow all the players to be on the same page for the check, because they all have to check for the signal and not just rely on hearing the audible. You do have to get in and out of the huddle a little quicker, but I don't see a big difference overall.

Again, I'm not a big fan of check with me either, but not because its been proven not to work, I think lots of teams use it effectively. I just think its horrible to watch.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2011, 11:52:26 AM »
Is there a very good reason to use huddle + check with me?  It seems there are more advantages to lining up quickly and trying to head off defensive substitutions.

Are we not giving Snyds enough credit and you think they will begin calling two consecutive plays in the huddle and doing 2nd down quick snaps ala Oklahoma with Bradford?

I just don't see what is gained by huddling up to start with.  Is it not training wheels upon training wheels?

Either of those are sound ways to do things, but they go against Snyder's TOP control offense. I am surprised that in his 2nd tenure Snyder has gone the huddle/check with me route, perhaps that came from Dimel, but it does fit TOP control in the same way his audible/fake audible system did.

I don't think huddle/check with me is bad or unsound though, especially if you practice it and your players are comfortable doing it. I think its just another way to do things. If anything it seems that Snyder is trying to things similar to how he used to, but is showing a distrust in QBs making decisions at the LOS OR he was influenced by his staff to use huddle/check with me instead of the QB audible system (which we still use some as well).

As far as why to use the huddle; it still allows you to have a play call and all players on the same page, and the check allows you to do the same thing as an audible at the LOS does, just in a different way. In theory the check with me should allow all the players to be on the same page for the check, because they all have to check for the signal and not just rely on hearing the audible. You do have to get in and out of the huddle a little quicker, but I don't see a big difference overall.

Again, I'm not a big fan of check with me either, but not because its been proven not to work, I think lots of teams use it effectively. I just think its horrible to watch.

I guess if ultimately there is going to a be a check with me, why not just go no huddle and have all the plays called with the qb being responsible for reiterating the call along the line?  The huddle seems redundant and that time could be better spent at the line forcing the defense to line up.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2011, 12:01:32 PM »
I guess if ultimately there is going to a be a check with me, why not just go no huddle and have all the plays called with the qb being responsible for reiterating the call along the line?  The huddle seems redundant and that time could be better spent at the line forcing the defense to line up.

I would guess in our case it is because no huddle would utlimately use less time. You'd probably end up snapping with 6-8 seconds on the play clock most of the time, and not with 2-4 seconds as Snyder has always prefered. Plus I'm sure Snyder believes a call in the huddle gets the original formation and play call conveyed to all 11 players better than a no huddle/check with me system. Also, we use tons of different personnel groupings on offense (3WR-2RB, 2WR-1TE-2RB, 3WR-1TE-1RB, 1WR-2TE-2 RB, 2WR-2TE-1RB, etc.) often varying 3 to 4 different personnel groups during the course of a series. Having a huddle makes it easier to get those personnel groupings in and out without mistakes than a no huddle system.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2011, 12:05:40 PM »
I guess if ultimately there is going to a be a check with me, why not just go no huddle and have all the plays called with the qb being responsible for reiterating the call along the line?  The huddle seems redundant and that time could be better spent at the line forcing the defense to line up.

I would guess in our case it is because no huddle would utlimately use less time. You'd probably end up snapping with 6-8 seconds on the play clock most of the time, and not with 2-4 seconds as Snyder has always prefered. Plus I'm sure Snyder believes a call in the huddle gets the original formation and play call conveyed to all 11 players better than a no huddle/check with me system. Also, we use tons of different personnel groupings on offense (3WR-2RB, 2WR-1TE-2RB, 3WR-1TE-1RB, 1WR-2TE-2 RB, 2WR-2TE-1RB, etc.) often varying 3 to 4 different personnel groups during the course of a series. Having a huddle makes it easier to get those personnel groupings in and out without mistakes than a no huddle system.

Ok.  Can I still complain about it though?

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2011, 12:08:48 PM »
I know Snyder loves waiting until there's under 5 seconds on the play clock to get the play off. But he needs to sit in the crowd for one game and listen to all of the respects yell "GET THE PLAY OFF!!! C'MON GUYS!!!! HURRY UP!!!" every single play before he decides that that is what's best for the team. It's pretty much the sole reason I watched the 2nd half from the parking lot. It's not worth it for non-respected fans to be put through that the entire game.

Offline DQ12

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2011, 12:13:27 PM »
I know Snyder loves waiting until there's under 5 seconds on the play clock to get the play off. But he needs to sit in the crowd for one game and listen to all of the respects yell "GET THE PLAY OFF!!! C'MON GUYS!!!! HURRY UP!!!" every single play before he decides that that is what's best for the team. It's pretty much the sole reason I watched the 2nd half from the parking lot. It's not worth it for non-respected fans to be put through that the entire game.
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Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2011, 12:18:43 PM »
I guess if ultimately there is going to a be a check with me, why not just go no huddle and have all the plays called with the qb being responsible for reiterating the call along the line?  The huddle seems redundant and that time could be better spent at the line forcing the defense to line up.

I would guess in our case it is because no huddle would utlimately use less time. You'd probably end up snapping with 6-8 seconds on the play clock most of the time, and not with 2-4 seconds as Snyder has always prefered. Plus I'm sure Snyder believes a call in the huddle gets the original formation and play call conveyed to all 11 players better than a no huddle/check with me system. Also, we use tons of different personnel groupings on offense (3WR-2RB, 2WR-1TE-2RB, 3WR-1TE-1RB, 1WR-2TE-2 RB, 2WR-2TE-1RB, etc.) often varying 3 to 4 different personnel groups during the course of a series. Having a huddle makes it easier to get those personnel groupings in and out without mistakes than a no huddle system.

Ok.  Can I still complain about it though?

Of course you can.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2011, 03:27:49 PM »
I understand the criticisms of using a check with me system; I really don't care for it myself. However, I think many of the critiques in this thread simply stem from not liking it and being frustrated with an inept offensive performance, and much less from what actually happened in this game.

First, we didn't use it much on the first few drives and by the time we started to we had already established that we had very little offensive rhythm or momentum anyway. I think our lack of offensive rhythm came from poor execution of blocking assignments and just a real lack of physical play from our offensive line than any other part of the offensive scheme we used.

Second, I think there are sound reasons to use it, especially in this game the way EKU was shifting their front. If you use your play clock right, get out of the huddle with plenty of time to get the check, you can allow the defense to shift and give your players (particularly your young offensive line) time to adjust blocking schemes. Unfortunately it didn't work.

Third, the offense came together and finally sustained a drive to win the game. I don't see any sound logic in saying that check with me hurt us here because if something good had not happened (the fade to Harper) then something bad would have (running out of time, similar to Marshall, etc.). To me those things are mutually exclusive; the way it worked out an offense that had sputtered all day finally put together a really nice drive; never putting themselves in a situation longer than 3rd and 3 and overcaming a false start. All by mixing some QB run game, nice passing, and finally a well excuted pass over the top of the EKU defense. 86 yards in 11 plays, and the score came with 1:39 on the clock, hardly in danger at that point of running out of clock, even 33 yards from the endzone.

To me none of that successful drive had anything to do with using check with me or not during the rest of the game, but much more about the offense making plays they were capable of making the entire game.

I don't have an issue with a check with me system.  I have a problem with our check with me system.  And how the game ended on Saturday and how the Marshall game ended are not mutually exclusive.  The issue is that our two minute offense is just like the 58 minute offense.  When we got the ball with seven minutes left, that should have been played like we had two possessions left.  The pace he had them playing at was that of a team up 45 points in the fourth quarter.  You can have a check with me and not use the entire 40 on every snap.  Part of Klein's issue is that he didn't look comfortable and how could he when he's setting up his blockers with 4 seconds left on the play clock?  This isn't a new problem for Snyder, it was a hallmark of those 04 & 05 teams, it looked like keystone kops with DOGs, fumbled snaps, etc.  I'm not familiar enough with how they call their plays to know how they can get better, but I do know that of every college football team I've seen, we routinely look the most lost at the LOS and at the time of snap.

Offline Lefty

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2011, 04:35:29 PM »
HFBIQ only right here. Can someone explain what was going on with our playcalling? It wasn't Snyder's normal audible system that wore out the fans during the DOD. This seemed different.

-Why did we huddle up and then use the sideline check with me? Seems redundant.
-If Klein is so smart and HIQ QB type, why couldn't he audible himself?
-If I remember, we didn't do the check with me at all last year? GG's year we did it the entire year, but not so much last year.

There had to be a reason why Snyder used it so much? Was it strategy or necessity?

We used check with me some last year when Klein played. I don't believe we did with Coffman.

Huddle then check with me is a good way to use time and control TOP.

Check with me also could show a distrust in the QB making his own checks at the LOS, but that can't be known for sure.

There's more to the check with me system that happened on Saturday and I'm bound to get to the bottom of it. After I get done with my family walk around Cico Park, I'll dissect this more. Great input _Fan, MIR and all else involved. It's a deep issue and somethings weird.....Klein is supposed to be a super smart dude, but he can't make an audible? That's only part of it.
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Offline wes mantooth

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2011, 04:59:55 PM »
What a lame thread.   yuck.

Offline mcmwcat

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2011, 05:08:47 PM »
ku's offense crushed people w/ check with me system.  they also had a lot of talent on offense which might have had something to do with their success.

Offline wes mantooth

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2011, 05:25:21 PM »
ku's offense crushed people w/ check with me system.  they also didn't play anyone that year which might have had something to do with their success.

fyp

Offline Cire

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2011, 05:53:30 PM »
it's in the playbook.  certain d fronts are check with me.  

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2011, 09:31:21 PM »
ku's offense crushed people w/ check with me system.  they also had a lot of talent on offense which might have had something to do with their success.

They also didn't huddle for 25 seconds of the 40 second play clock before checking either.

Offline pissclams

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Re: Sideline play calling
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2011, 08:01:44 AM »
i like teh check with me, but only when the play that they're checking on is a long bomb.  i love long bombs.


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