Author Topic: credit rating  (Read 9210 times)

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Offline michigancat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2011, 08:27:32 AM »

From April, when the S&P told the World that if the U.S. didn't get its spending under control it would downgrade the credit rating.  Obama's response, plead with the S&P not to do it.  Wonderful example of leadership


The S&P report also said that we needed to raise revenues as well.  They criticized the notion that the debt could be tackled solely by cuts.

No it didn't.  You guys need to stop lying to yourselves.

Quote
“Notably, there was no call in the S&P note for closing the deficit with tax increases … We hope this neutrality reflects some recognition of the way countries like Greece, pressed to cut spending while raising taxes, descend into an endless downward growth spiral. That's how a nation's outlook becomes truly ‘negative.’

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704004004576270970186305348.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop#printMode


The report from Friday recommended an increase in revenues by raising taxes on high earners (aka letting bush tax cuts on high earners expire).

Quote
On the other hand, as our upside scenario highlights, if the recommendations of the Congressional Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction--independently or coupled with other initiatives, such as the lapsing of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts for high earners--lead to fiscal consolidation measures beyond the minimum mandated, and we believe they are likely to slow the deterioration of the government's debt dynamics, the long-term rating could stabilize at 'AA+'.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/sp-downgrades-us-aa-outlook-negative-full-text

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2011, 08:37:51 PM »

From April, when the S&P told the World that if the U.S. didn't get its spending under control it would downgrade the credit rating.  Obama's response, plead with the S&P not to do it.  Wonderful example of leadership


The S&P report also said that we needed to raise revenues as well.  They criticized the notion that the debt could be tackled solely by cuts.

No it didn't.  You guys need to stop lying to yourselves.

Quote
“Notably, there was no call in the S&P note for closing the deficit with tax increases … We hope this neutrality reflects some recognition of the way countries like Greece, pressed to cut spending while raising taxes, descend into an endless downward growth spiral. That's how a nation's outlook becomes truly ‘negative.’

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704004004576270970186305348.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop#printMode


The report from Friday recommended an increase in revenues by raising taxes on high earners (aka letting bush tax cuts on high earners expire).

Quote
On the other hand, as our upside scenario highlights, if the recommendations of the Congressional Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction--independently or coupled with other initiatives, such as the lapsing of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts for high earners--lead to fiscal consolidation measures beyond the minimum mandated, and we believe they are likely to slow the deterioration of the government's debt dynamics, the long-term rating could stabilize at 'AA+'.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/sp-downgrades-us-aa-outlook-negative-full-text

I assume you're just hoping nobody actually clicks on the link?
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Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2011, 09:36:17 PM »

From April, when the S&P told the World that if the U.S. didn't get its spending under control it would downgrade the credit rating.  Obama's response, plead with the S&P not to do it.  Wonderful example of leadership


The S&P report also said that we needed to raise revenues as well.  They criticized the notion that the debt could be tackled solely by cuts.

No it didn't.  You guys need to stop lying to yourselves.

Quote
“Notably, there was no call in the S&P note for closing the deficit with tax increases … We hope this neutrality reflects some recognition of the way countries like Greece, pressed to cut spending while raising taxes, descend into an endless downward growth spiral. That's how a nation's outlook becomes truly ‘negative.’

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704004004576270970186305348.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop#printMode


The report from Friday recommended an increase in revenues by raising taxes on high earners (aka letting bush tax cuts on high earners expire).

Quote
On the other hand, as our upside scenario highlights, if the recommendations of the Congressional Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction--independently or coupled with other initiatives, such as the lapsing of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts for high earners--lead to fiscal consolidation measures beyond the minimum mandated, and we believe they are likely to slow the deterioration of the government's debt dynamics, the long-term rating could stabilize at 'AA+'.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/sp-downgrades-us-aa-outlook-negative-full-text

I assume you're just hoping nobody actually clicks on the link?

This sounds similar to what Paul Ryan proposed:

Quote
Our opinion is that elected officials remain wary of tackling the structural issues required to effectively address the rising U.S. public debt burden in a manner consistent with a 'AAA' rating and with 'AAA' rated sovereign peers

Offline AzCat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2011, 10:52:42 PM »
The euro is going to have to die for Europe to get it's fiscal house in order. Until that happens, France really doesn't have much say in how much longer it will be carrying PIGS

Also huge lol at calling Japan's outlook merely bleak. This is a country that has a debt of 225 percent of GDP. So that balanced budget by 2020 must really be easing investors' fears of only having 250 or 300 percent debt to GDP.

The U.S. government could literally borrow the money to give every citizen $5,000 tomorrow and still have less debt to GDP than Japan.

And it's a spending an revenue problem, stupid. I know it's hard to fathom that in socialist America we have certain safety nets, and in times of recession those safety nets are used much more heavily than in the boom times so government expenditures grow while revenues decrease leading to massive deficits.

This is why "Reagan proved deficits don't matter," is a load of bullcrap. This relies on the same mentality that bankers had in lending to anyone with a pulse. I would entirely agree with the statement if there was some magical way to guarantee 4 percent growth a year, then there's no problem borrowing an extra 3-3.5 percent.

To solve this problem taxes have to be raised, spending must be cut and both must be done in a responsible manner.

Seems far more likely that weaker economies will flee or be shown the door by the Eurozone rather than the rest allowing the Euro to die.  Europe can repair its problems with something far less than the death of the Euro.

Interesting point on Japan's debt:GDP ratio.  We're presently sitting at around 105% of GDP (including the most recent borrowing) with Obama having added around 16% of GDP per year to our outstanding debt (the US debt:GDP ratio was around ~65% when he entered office).  Should he be reelected, choose to double down on his failed policies and see debt accrue at a similar rate, the US national debt would be just under 195% of GDP when he leaves in 2016.  If that happens there's be a very real chance that by 2020 our national debt could look an awful lot like that of Japan.  The most significant difference being that Japan is on a glide path towards a balanced budget by 2020 while Obama projects trillion+ dollar annual deficits for the US indefinitely.  Thus in the mid-term Japan seems to be a better bet than the US since they're at least on track to arrive at 250% of GDP with a balanced budget while we're on track to arrive at a similar level while still adding massively to our debt on an annual basis forever.  Thanks for bringing that up.

I've no problem with "safety nets" for, say, the poorest 1% of the population.  But when 50,000,000+ are on food stamps it's no longer a "safety net", it's middle class welfare.  Ditto Obamacare's subsidy of health insurance for those up to 400% of the poverty line.  Ditto SS & Medicare that are unsustainable in their present forms.  Ditton an awful lot more of what the federal government does.  The entitlements need to be curtailed & modified structurally, if the US can't do that economic collapse is inevitible no matter the tax rate or whatever other reforms might be attempted.

On the tax side I'd like to see the lefties put their money where their mouths are: propose a wealth tax that confiscates a percentage of net worth beyond certain levels.  It'll be heinously destructive but probably less so than making even more progressive what is already one of the world's most progressive income tax systems (or adding a VAT which kills the middle class) and it has the added benefit of taxing wealth rather than productivity or consumption so we don't punish the productive for their productivity or consumers who support our economy, just those who already have "too much".  Why aren't lefties talking about taxing the already-rich rather than the trying-to-get-rich?  Never really understood that.

The third leg, and probably the most powerful one in the short term, is economic growth.  Pro-growth policies that don't touch taxes or spending (much) might include eliminating the most economically destructive federal agencies and all of the rules & laws they enforce.  The EPA is certainly the worst offender probably followed closely by the Dept. of Labor.  Kill those and a few more like them and we can probably kick the tax/spending can down the road quite a ways further.  Heck, even Jimmy Carter, moron that he is, understood the power of deregulation. 

Offline theKSU

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2011, 11:13:33 PM »

Offline AzCat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2011, 11:23:20 PM »
Here's some help for you AzCat:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opinion/stop-coddling-the-super-rich.html

Buffett is *exactly* the sort I'm referring to above. I'm fully on board with a 100% wealth tax for billionaires.  At some point you've just made enough money, right?  So let's decide when Americans have made enough money and just take everything the have beyond that point.  We can use all of that excess cash to eliminate the corporate income tax (yay for economic growth!) and the individual income tax (because we want everyone to make their first billion as soon as possible so we can take everything the acquire after that).  And as an added bonus we'd never again have to read an editorial from someone who's got theirs arguing that we should make it much harder for anyone else to get theirs.  Seems like a win all the way around to me!

 :excited:

Offline 06wildcat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2011, 12:20:04 AM »
The euro is going to have to die for Europe to get it's fiscal house in order. Until that happens, France really doesn't have much say in how much longer it will be carrying PIGS

Also huge lol at calling Japan's outlook merely bleak. This is a country that has a debt of 225 percent of GDP. So that balanced budget by 2020 must really be easing investors' fears of only having 250 or 300 percent debt to GDP.

The U.S. government could literally borrow the money to give every citizen $5,000 tomorrow and still have less debt to GDP than Japan.

And it's a spending an revenue problem, stupid. I know it's hard to fathom that in socialist America we have certain safety nets, and in times of recession those safety nets are used much more heavily than in the boom times so government expenditures grow while revenues decrease leading to massive deficits.

This is why "Reagan proved deficits don't matter," is a load of bullcrap. This relies on the same mentality that bankers had in lending to anyone with a pulse. I would entirely agree with the statement if there was some magical way to guarantee 4 percent growth a year, then there's no problem borrowing an extra 3-3.5 percent.

To solve this problem taxes have to be raised, spending must be cut and both must be done in a responsible manner.

I don't understand basic economics. I've been told lower taxes and less regulation will fix everything. Corporations have our best interest at heart, we just need to let them shower us with unicorns and fairy dust.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2011, 12:29:32 AM »
The third leg, and probably the most powerful one in the short term, is economic growth.  Pro-growth policies that don't touch taxes or spending (much) might include eliminating the most economically destructive federal agencies and all of the rules & laws they enforce.  The EPA is certainly the worst offender probably followed closely by the Dept. of Labor.  Kill those and a few more like them and we can probably kick the tax/spending can down the road quite a ways further.  Heck, even Jimmy Carter, moron that he is, understood the power of deregulation.  

Yeah, we should just allow people to use whatever chemicals they want, dispose of their waste however they want, hire whoever they want regardless of legal status, and force their employees to work in unsafe environments. We shouldn't set drinking water standards for cities to meet, either. After all, if their citizens don't like it, they won't buy it. The free market will allow them to find their own source of water and build their own infrastructure. That would be way better.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 12:32:18 AM by Nuts Kicked »

Offline AzCat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2011, 12:39:48 AM »
I don't understand basic economics.

At least you're aware of your limitations.  I suppose that's something.   :ck:

Offline AzCat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2011, 12:45:25 AM »
The third leg, and probably the most powerful one in the short term, is economic growth.  Pro-growth policies that don't touch taxes or spending (much) might include eliminating the most economically destructive federal agencies and all of the rules & laws they enforce.  The EPA is certainly the worst offender probably followed closely by the Dept. of Labor.  Kill those and a few more like them and we can probably kick the tax/spending can down the road quite a ways further.  Heck, even Jimmy Carter, moron that he is, understood the power of deregulation.  

Yeah, we should just allow people to use whatever chemicals they want, dispose of their waste however they want, hire whoever they want regardless of legal status, and force their employees to work in unsafe environments. We shouldn't set drinking water standards for cities to meet, either. After all, if their citizens don't like it, they won't buy it. The free market will allow them to find their own source of water and build their own infrastructure. That would be way better.

Yes, yes - on their own land or where they've contracted to do so, yes, no - no one will force any employee to remain in a job should the employee feel conditions there are unsafe, yes - water filters are cheap, reliable & widely available and a private water quality testing industry would be a fine thing.  There are very few domestic matters that the federal government really needs to involve itself in.

Infrastructure, by which I presume you mean things like roads, bridges, airports, canals, etc., is a local / state issue.  No need for federal interference. 

Offline 06wildcat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2011, 01:18:15 AM »
Man I'm going to make a shitload of money with my discount nuclear waste storage business. The vacant lot is near a school, hospital and a large apartment complex. It's my land so I'll just let everything sit out in the open. Of course the deed to the land will be held by a dummy corporation with no other assets. I figure I'll have a good 10-15 years of collecting huge profits before the really nasty cancer clusters start appearing. Of course those profits will be long gone by the time the company is sued into bankruptcy.

AZCat, are you going to run for president, because I think you'd foster a business environment that would make me rich enough to guard against other honest entrepreneurs.

Jesus rough ridin' Christ. We had as close to unfettered capitalism in this country as you can get in the latter 19th and early 20th century. Things weren't all that great.

Offline michigancat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2011, 06:36:03 AM »
LOL, glad AZCat is back at it.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2011, 08:06:14 AM »
The third leg, and probably the most powerful one in the short term, is economic growth.  Pro-growth policies that don't touch taxes or spending (much) might include eliminating the most economically destructive federal agencies and all of the rules & laws they enforce.  The EPA is certainly the worst offender probably followed closely by the Dept. of Labor.  Kill those and a few more like them and we can probably kick the tax/spending can down the road quite a ways further.  Heck, even Jimmy Carter, moron that he is, understood the power of deregulation.  

Yeah, we should just allow people to use whatever chemicals they want, dispose of their waste however they want, hire whoever they want regardless of legal status, and force their employees to work in unsafe environments. We shouldn't set drinking water standards for cities to meet, either. After all, if their citizens don't like it, they won't buy it. The free market will allow them to find their own source of water and build their own infrastructure. That would be way better.

Yes, yes - on their own land or where they've contracted to do so, yes, no - no one will force any employee to remain in a job should the employee feel conditions there are unsafe, yes - water filters are cheap, reliable & widely available and a private water quality testing industry would be a fine thing.  There are very few domestic matters that the federal government really needs to involve itself in.

Infrastructure, by which I presume you mean things like roads, bridges, airports, canals, etc., is a local / state issue.  No need for federal interference. 

LOL. You should move to Mexico. They are set up exactly how you want us to be.

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2011, 06:52:16 PM »
AzCat is right.  The credit downgrade wasn't about the Unites States' ability to repay its debt tomorrow, it was about its ability to repay its debt in "mid-term" presumably 10 or so years down the road.  We are rocketing towards an unsustainable debt load while the euro zone and japan are curtailing theirs.

Pretty simple stuff.  There is a point at which you can't borrow anymore and we are approaching it at an increasing rate.  Other countries recognized and made changes, we recognized and added $2,100,000,000,000 in debt.  Those playing down and misrepresenting what the S&P said are just hearing what they want to hear.
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Re: credit rating
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2011, 06:59:51 PM »
Yeah, we should just allow people to use whatever chemicals they want, dispose of their waste however they want, hire whoever they want regardless of legal status, and force their employees to work in unsafe environments. We shouldn't set drinking water standards for cities to meet, either. After all, if their citizens don't like it, they won't buy it. The free market will allow them to find their own source of water and build their own infrastructure. That would be way better.

Nobody is proposing this. 

It's these kinds of absurd, "Hobson's choices", where it's either "all in" or "all out" that denigrates any real conversation.  This bullshit belongs at a high school debate match, or at a bbq in lawrence, or as far as we can tell in Congress.

It's like the immigration debate, you can either make them all citizens and hand them their welfare benefits or put them all in cattle cars, destination mexico.  It's stupid.
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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2011, 07:06:03 PM »

Nobody is proposing this. 

It's these kinds of absurd, "Hobson's choices", where it's either "all in" or "all out" that denigrates any real conversation.  This bullshit belongs at a high school debate match, or at a bbq in lawrence, or as far as we can tell in Congress.

It's like the immigration debate, you can either make them all citizens and hand them their welfare benefits or put them all in cattle cars, destination mexico.  It's stupid.

The third leg, and probably the most powerful one in the short term, is economic growth.  Pro-growth policies that don't touch taxes or spending (much) might include eliminating the most economically destructive federal agencies and all of the rules & laws they enforce.  The EPA is certainly the worst offender probably followed closely by the Dept. of Labor.  Kill those and a few more like them and we can probably kick the tax/spending can down the road quite a ways further.  Heck, even Jimmy Carter, moron that he is, understood the power of deregulation. 

Yeah, we should just allow people to use whatever chemicals they want, dispose of their waste however they want, hire whoever they want regardless of legal status, and force their employees to work in unsafe environments. We shouldn't set drinking water standards for cities to meet, either. After all, if their citizens don't like it, they won't buy it. The free market will allow them to find their own source of water and build their own infrastructure. That would be way better.

Yes, yes - on their own land or where they've contracted to do so, yes, no - no one will force any employee to remain in a job should the employee feel conditions there are unsafe, yes - water filters are cheap, reliable & widely available and a private water quality testing industry would be a fine thing.  There are very few domestic matters that the federal government really needs to involve itself in.

Infrastructure, by which I presume you mean things like roads, bridges, airports, canals, etc., is a local / state issue.  No need for federal interference. 

AzCat just confirmed that he, in fact, is proposing this.

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2011, 08:03:30 PM »

I don't think you understand what he's saying.
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Offline AzCat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2011, 08:41:33 PM »
I don't think you understand what he's saying.

None of them do.  

For the benefit of our resident lefties / 'tards (but I repeat myself): It may surprise you to discover that there exist multiple overlapping levels of government within the United States (and that both within and between each level there exists extreme redundancy but that's a topic best left for a master class in civics).  

What I'm suggesting is that since our federal government has proven incompetent, unsustainably expensive and irresponsible in the extreme that we delegate most of its functions back to lower levels of government from whence they were originally taken because: a) it will reduce the regulatory bloat that's presently strangling the private sector; b) it will significantly reduce the cost of our federal government thus greatly easing the present federal debt / deficit issues; and c) it will make government more responsible to citizens since things of import will be done closer to home where individuals and small groups can have more impact.

The only real down side is that coastal lefties, who will be free to run absolutely wild with their satanist / socialist dreams ... within the borders of whichever states they can manage to control, won't be able to impose their vision on the entire nation from one single choke point.  Of course this implies that they'll have to compete for capital, business & labor with their non-socialist neighbors which is the one thing they simply cannot allow to happen.  But that's a feature rather than a bug since the competition among states & localities will undoubtedly produce both something like the most proper and the most efficient levels of government.  

« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 08:48:15 PM by AzCat »

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2011, 08:52:56 PM »

You didn't even get to the Environuts favorite wet dream, nuisance laws, where they have standing to sue on behalf of anyone they pay to become a member.
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Offline AzCat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2011, 08:54:36 PM »
The environuts can have the sorts of actions they presently drag into federal courts in whichever states are stupid / gullible enough to grant them third party standing as the US government does now.  The problem will quickly self-correct. 

Offline 06wildcat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2011, 09:48:54 PM »
AzCat, you get pollution to agree to the arbitrary lines of individual states and I'll agree with your plan.

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2011, 09:57:21 PM »
AzCat, you get pollution to agree to the arbitrary lines of individual states and I'll agree with your plan.

I always forget pollution is captive within the arbitrary lines of the united states.    :facepalm:

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Offline AzCat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2011, 09:59:29 PM »
AzCat, you get pollution to agree to the arbitrary lines of individual states and I'll agree with your plan.

I always forget pollution is captive within the arbitrary lines of the united states.    :facepalm:


Zing!   :lol:

Offline 06wildcat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2011, 10:01:57 PM »
Thanks for making my point SugarDick.

You do know you guys are free to leave the country if it's so repressive right? I hear Somalia is lovely this time of year.

Offline AzCat

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Re: credit rating
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2011, 03:40:48 PM »
Behold the splendor of the regulatory state!   :comeatme: