Author Topic: Jury Duty  (Read 37691 times)

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Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #75 on: April 11, 2014, 01:50:36 PM »
Do defense lawyers not realize that while your average Joe Jury Member MAY be swayed by a prosecuting attorney making your client look nervous, your average Joe Jury Member DEFINITELY will think it is odd that the defendant does not even attempt to defend him/herself?

Criminal defense lawyers realize that there may be some mocats on the jury (especially if the defense lawyer didn't eliminate all the mocats in voir dire) that will put weight into the defendant not testifying, but also realize that if the defendant does testify that mocats and non-mocats on the jury will get to watch their guilty client get destroyed on the stand and undoubtedly be found guilty.

And as was alluded to earlier, that's all because prosecutors generally only take the absolutely guilty ones to trial.  And not only the just the absolutely guilty ones, but the absolutely guilty ones where there's nothing weird with the case that the prosecutor can't overcome to get a conviction.

Notwithstanding all that, 12 Angry Men is a great movie.

Ironically, so is Jury Duty

Offline DQ12

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #76 on: April 11, 2014, 01:51:48 PM »
Not Pauly Shore's best work, but still good.


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Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #77 on: April 11, 2014, 01:56:16 PM »
He did not even testify in his defense.
Defendants rarely testify.

It's been more often than not in my experience that they do.  Maybe not much over half, but the majority even if ever so slightly.  It is often against the advice of counsel though.  I have never had it happen where I wasn't delighted that they did.
Well you'd certainly know better than I would.

the eff would chingon know about people testifying

Offline mocat

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2014, 02:01:18 PM »
Do defense lawyers not realize that while your average Joe Jury Member MAY be swayed by a prosecuting attorney making your client look nervous, your average Joe Jury Member DEFINITELY will think it is odd that the defendant does not even attempt to defend him/herself?

Criminal defense lawyers realize that there may be some mocats on the jury (especially if the defense lawyer didn't eliminate all the mocats in voir dire) that will put weight into the defendant not testifying, but also realize that if the defendant does testify that mocats and non-mocats on the jury will get to watch their guilty client get destroyed on the stand and undoubtedly be found guilty.

And as was alluded to earlier, that's all because prosecutors generally only take the absolutely guilty ones to trial.  And not only the just the absolutely guilty ones, but the absolutely guilty ones where there's nothing weird with the case that the prosecutor can't overcome to get a conviction.

Notwithstanding all that, 12 Angry Men is a great movie.

that makes sense, thanks trim. judging by the 10 minutes of deliberating, there were 12 "mocats" on the jury, fwiw

Offline Trim

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2014, 02:17:47 PM »
Do defense lawyers not realize that while your average Joe Jury Member MAY be swayed by a prosecuting attorney making your client look nervous, your average Joe Jury Member DEFINITELY will think it is odd that the defendant does not even attempt to defend him/herself?

Criminal defense lawyers realize that there may be some mocats on the jury (especially if the defense lawyer didn't eliminate all the mocats in voir dire) that will put weight into the defendant not testifying, but also realize that if the defendant does testify that mocats and non-mocats on the jury will get to watch their guilty client get destroyed on the stand and undoubtedly be found guilty.

And as was alluded to earlier, that's all because prosecutors generally only take the absolutely guilty ones to trial.  And not only the just the absolutely guilty ones, but the absolutely guilty ones where there's nothing weird with the case that the prosecutor can't overcome to get a conviction.

Notwithstanding all that, 12 Angry Men is a great movie.

that makes sense, thanks trim. judging by the 10 minutes of deliberating, there were 12 "mocats" on the jury, fwiw

I'd guess that it could've been 5 minutes if the defendant had testified, assuming you all wouldn't have spent some time lol'n and/or wtf'n at his testimony.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #80 on: April 11, 2014, 05:12:01 PM »
Can we put bad lawyers on blast in this thread (pics and such)?  The plaintiff's lawyer in the case I sat on absolutely killed any chance the lady had.

Offline EMAWesome

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #81 on: April 11, 2014, 06:16:10 PM »
This is going to be long, so if you aren't into that sort of thing, go get your DNR GIF's & post away...this is still the Cliffs Notes version to this thing...lots more issues were discussed, but this is the nuts & bolts of the case I just sat through for 5 days

Civil Case...events happened all the way back in 2004.

Plaintiff is a 50 year old Paraplegic Man that has been paraplegic since 15 years old

Timeline

4-5-04 - While at work, the plaintiff while in his wheelchair, reaches for an item that is too high, and ends up falling backwards out of his wheelchair when the back of the wheelchair breaks. Goes to his GP DR, who refers him to NKCBJ (Bone & Joint) where he has initial shoulder exam, which is negative. Schedules a follow up visit to NKCBJ for 4-22-04 to reassess Shoulder injury if it hasn't improved.

4-14-04 - While transferring from his bed to his wheelchair, his right shoulder gives out and the plaintiff falls to the floor directly on his right knee. He is paraplegic, but still has about 10% of pain sensation of a 'normal' person...says leg feels like a charlie horse that day. Sees some swelling.

4-15-04 - Makes an appointment with and sees his GP Dr, (who later becomes the defendant in this case) RE: Right knee. Examination shows swelling, but intact joint. Hip & Femur X-Rays are taken @ GP office. Defendant states there is "No acute fracture that I am able to elicit" on the X-Rays. Sends plaintiff home with instructions to use Ace Bandage & ice to treat swelling, and gives plaintiff the X-Rays to take with him to the same Orthopedic Dr that the Defendant referred him to RE his shoulder injury...Defendant testifies that he remembers the follow up visit being already scheduled for "Several days" after 4-15. No mention of extra care to plaintiff of injury, only to 'follow up' w/ NKCBJ

4-16 to 4-21-04 - Plaintiff sees increased swelling/bruising to his femur/right knee area. Attempts to call Defendants office 3-4 different days to talk to nurse, Dr, anybody. Finally gets through to Nurse on 4-21. Nurse call notes state plaintiff is concerned about blood clots, advises plaintiff to take aspirin to reduce clotting risk.

4-22-04 - Plaintiff sees NKCBJ...this is the appointment that was originally to have been follow up to shoulder injury, but femur is now main concern. The X-Rays taken on 4-15 @ GP office are shown to Orthopedic Surgeon, who elicits a fracture. Note taken at that time states the plaintiff will be admitted to the hospital for treatment which includes new X-Rays, checking for blood clots, blood work, UA, and bracing of the femur/knee is mentioned. There is NO mention of surgery in the initial Orthopedic Surgeons notes. X-Rays taken on 4-22 show a major, impacted fracture of the femur...basically 2-3 cm of bone impaled down into the knee joint between 4-15 & 4-22. At that time, Orthopedic Surgeons notes state that surgery will be required on this injury.

4-23-04 - approx 9-05
Plaintiff has surgery on 4-23. Bone distender (I believe was the term) is used during surgery to pull the impacted portion of his femur back to correct length. Steel plate and 10 screws are inserted into femur. During healing a brace is used that locks the knee at a specific angle, starting w/ straight, and ending some months later w/ a nearly 90* bend. During his time wearing the brace significant skin wounds appear which warrant the use of a wound vac, which is basically a small vacuum that runs non stop, and vacates these wounds of infection. Fracture is noted as healed on 10-04. Wounds persist until approx 9-05.

Testimony

Defendant
Defendant states that the fracture was not seen on initial X-Rays taken on 4-15, but given the swelling, he suspected there was 'internal derangement' of some sort, be it a sprain, ligament damage, or a hairline fracture. He knew the X-rays would be difficult to read b/c the plaintiff is a paraplegic (pp going forward) that does not have bones that are as dense as a walking person. Has received consult from Radiologists in the past on other cases, did not see a reason to consult on this case. Was afraid to put plaintiff in an immobilization brace b/c pp patients are susceptible to skin breakdown (very bad bed sores basically) b/c of their lack of sensation, esp when no fracture was elicited on the x-ray. States that even if a fracture was elicited on the x-rays he took on 4-15, his course of treatment would have been the same as it was...basically follow up w/ orthopedic surgeon.

Expert Witness #1
Degree in Orthopedic Medicine + Law School degree + Business degree...has testified in 40 some cases before as an expert witness in this field. Found the X-Rays on 4-15 to show an acute fracture of the femur. Stated that the type of fracture in that x-ray is often fixed w/o surgery by using a Bledsoe brace. Thought that a GP Dr. should be able to elicit a fracture like the one seen, and thought that by missing the fracture, and failing to immobilize the leg on 4-15 he had failed to meet the standard of care. Says the X-Rays taken on 4-22 show a much more severe injury that now almost always requires surgery.

Expert Witness #2
GP doctor for 30 years, now hospital admin. Testified in 33 cases as expert witness, 32 of which were for the defense. Testifies that even though the fracture was missed by the GP, the standard of care was met by giving plaintiff the x-rays and ensuring a follow up visit w/ ortho was made. Also testifies the standard of care in a patient that might have a fracture could include immediate visit to orthopedic specialist or immobilization of the area.

Orthopedic Surgeon that the Defendant was referred to
Deposition only. Was a witness for the defense that was not issued a subpoena. Deposition stated that surgery was imminent from the time of the fracture. In direct contradiction to his notes taken on 4-22 described above. Thought that the Defendant met the standard of care by ensuring that the plaintiff had a visit scheduled to an Ortho for further evaluation.

You must rule for the plaintiff if you find all of the following to be true (I can't remember all the legalese used here, Trim, Limestone, Belvis, BSAC, whoever (eff there are a lot of lawyers here) feel free to modify if you GAF)

1) That the defendant missed the fracture on 4-15 x-rays
     or
that the defendant failed to immobilize the leg on 4-15

2) That the defendant acted negligent by his actions in #1

3) That the negligence by the defendant caused damage to the plaintiff.

If you find for the plaintiff how much $$ do you award him? $145k in medical bills was the # that was thrown out, along w/ $225k in "Non economic injury" which included categories like loss of lust for life, loss of wages, loss of independence, etc...

How do you rule in this case?

 :impatient:

Offline Spracne

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #82 on: April 11, 2014, 06:29:05 PM »
Lock him up and throw away the key. If we hurry, I might be able to make it to the Yanks game before the stretch. My boy is waiting.
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Offline Spracne

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #83 on: April 11, 2014, 06:31:03 PM »
In all seriousness, I would rule for the plaintiff. Damages in the form of medical bills and lost wages.
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Offline raquetcat

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #84 on: April 11, 2014, 08:46:11 PM »
I'm actually in a legal issues in health care class right now so I know all about this stuff :gocho: sounds like the Dr covered his ass by making sure the patient had a follow up scheduled with the orthopedic Dr. I had a some what similar situation happen to my daughter, took her in because we thought she broke her ankle, they took x-rays and didn't find a break, but told us to come back in a day if she wasn't walking on it, we took her back in and they took more x-rays and found a break that they then casted. Probably could have sued the Dr and x-ray person for mis reading the x-rays or not taking x-rays of the right part of her leg, but we didn't.
Raquetcat verdict: NOT GUILTY
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Offline EMAWesome

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #85 on: April 15, 2014, 07:42:33 AM »
I'm actually in a legal issues in health care class right now so I know all about this stuff :gocho: sounds like the Dr covered his ass by making sure the patient had a follow up scheduled with the orthopedic Dr. I had a some what similar situation happen to my daughter, took her in because we thought she broke her ankle, they took x-rays and didn't find a break, but told us to come back in a day if she wasn't walking on it, we took her back in and they took more x-rays and found a break that they then casted. Probably could have sued the Dr and x-ray person for mis reading the x-rays or not taking x-rays of the right part of her leg, but we didn't.
Raquetcat verdict: NOT GUILTY

But in your scenario, there was instructions given by the Dr in case things didn't clear up by saying, "come back in a day if she wasn't walking on it,"

The Dr in my case never said, "If you see increased bruising or swelling, get back in here or go to the ER," or, "Take it easy when transitioning from your wheelchair until you get into your ortho to figure out what is going on w/ that leg,"

I was never of the opinion that missing the fracture ='d Neglect in my case, but his lack of instructions to the patient and not ensuring the Ortho follow up was in a more timely manner did = Neglect

Offline Spracne

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #86 on: April 15, 2014, 08:10:46 AM »
I'm actually in a legal issues in health care class right now so I know all about this stuff :gocho: sounds like the Dr covered his ass by making sure the patient had a follow up scheduled with the orthopedic Dr. I had a some what similar situation happen to my daughter, took her in because we thought she broke her ankle, they took x-rays and didn't find a break, but told us to come back in a day if she wasn't walking on it, we took her back in and they took more x-rays and found a break that they then casted. Probably could have sued the Dr and x-ray person for mis reading the x-rays or not taking x-rays of the right part of her leg, but we didn't.
Raquetcat verdict: NOT GUILTY

But in your scenario, there was instructions given by the Dr in case things didn't clear up by saying, "come back in a day if she wasn't walking on it,"

The Dr in my case never said, "If you see increased bruising or swelling, get back in here or go to the ER," or, "Take it easy when transitioning from your wheelchair until you get into your ortho to figure out what is going on w/ that leg,"

I was never of the opinion that missing the fracture ='d Neglect in my case, but his lack of instructions to the patient and not ensuring the Ortho follow up was in a more timely manner did = Neglect

The fact that he seemed to vageuly recall that a visit with an orthopedist was on the horizon and that was good enough for him to wash his hands of it seems lazy, if not neglectful.  I have seen that many physicians who work with the elderly and disabled seem to give less of a crap, so I may be biased in my assessment.
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Offline pissclams

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #87 on: April 15, 2014, 08:16:41 AM »
the standard of care was met.  why don't people understand a very simple concept such as standard of care?  because they're dumb.



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Offline pissclams

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #88 on: April 15, 2014, 08:19:24 AM »
if this dude's leg hurt so bad b/w 4-16 to 4-21-04 i'm guessing he could have gotten someone on the phone before 5 days had gone by.



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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2014, 08:24:37 AM »
I would rule for the plaintiff in the amount of whatever his medical bills are. I don't think I'd give him lost wages.

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2014, 08:26:38 AM »
I would rule in favor of the defendant and immediately put down the plaintiff like a useless quarterhorse.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #91 on: April 15, 2014, 08:36:12 AM »
the standard of care was met.  why don't people understand a very simple concept such as standard of care?  because they're dumb.

Was it? You're right, that is the question.  However, we have two experts - both of whom are exceedingly more qualified than you and me - who disagree on the question.  It is not as cut-and-dry as you say. 
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Offline pissclams

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #92 on: April 15, 2014, 08:44:23 AM »
the standard of care was met.  why don't people understand a very simple concept such as standard of care?  because they're dumb.

Was it? You're right, that is the question.  However, we have two experts - both of whom are exceedingly more qualified than you and me - who disagree on the question.  It is not as cut-and-dry as you say. 

i'm qualified enough to not let a paid med mal expert cloud the issue. this is a very clear case.  the gp acted within reason.  dismissed.


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Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #93 on: April 15, 2014, 08:48:21 AM »
the only thing the gp did wrong was to be so stupid that he couldn't correctly read the scan, which doesn't qualify as negligence or cause standards of care to have not been met. good grief you guys.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 08:59:12 AM by Rick RowdyBoyy Daris »

Offline Bloodfart

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #94 on: April 15, 2014, 08:50:58 AM »
Sounds like Rowdy and lams are in the pocket of big medicine.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #95 on: April 15, 2014, 09:14:23 AM »
The first doctor clearly made a huge mistake and should have to give his patient his money back.

Offline pissclams

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #96 on: April 15, 2014, 09:21:00 AM »
the only thing the gp did wrong was to be so stupid that he couldn't correctly read the scan, which doesn't qualify as negligence or cause standards of care to have not been met. good grief you guys.

this is correct.


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Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #97 on: April 15, 2014, 09:56:49 AM »
also and this is just an opinion, but anyone allowing their gp to do more than school physicals probably deserves whatever this guy got and then some.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #98 on: April 15, 2014, 09:59:10 AM »
also and this is just an opinion, but anyone allowing their gp to do more than school physicals probably deserves whatever this guy got and then some.

What should he have done? Just go to the emergency room?

Offline pissclams

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Re: Jury Duty
« Reply #99 on: April 15, 2014, 10:01:06 AM »
also and this is just an opinion, but anyone allowing their gp to do more than school physicals probably deserves whatever this guy got and then some.

What should he have done? Just go to the emergency room?

i think he should have gone to taco bell and rubbed a bean burrito on his forehead, because that is what makes the most sense.  right?


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