Frank in the valley of decision

[Acceleration Man]

OK, FTR I have always loved Frank as a coach and have supported him up to very recently. However, it's reached a point where I can't reasonably just blame the players on this team for "not trying hard enough", or "buying in". Besides this, Frank's rhetoric in comparison to team morale/performance has become increasingly troubling lately.

Frank has talked about leadership all year long. First it was, "our team needs some leaders". Fair enough, but so is the point that for whatever reason he has not chosen/been able to keep a number of solid role player, 4-year type kids in the program to provide some of that leadership he's wanting. Plus he hasn't replaced those kids with others that are measurably better. Then it turned into "I wasn't leading well enough, but I'm changing that now". OK, so you're man enough to talk the talk, but there's little evidence of a real change of coaching methods or team morale. In fact, just the opposite.

It seems pretty obvious to me that a lot of players cannot deal with Martin's coaching style, and understandably so. It's one thing when you have upperclassmen who have "bought in" and you run off an underclassman who you perceive to be "not measuring up". But this pattern cannot continue if we hope to have any lasting stability in the program. And yes, when this becomes a pattern, you'd better believe it affects recruiting.

To solve this, Martin has to 1.) Recruit good players who can handle his style  2.) Ease up just a bit with the drill sergeant routine and show a little patience with guys with potential or 3.) Get fired/leave.

Since I don't think #1 is realistic (obviously not working at this point), I'm hoping for #2. The question is, however, is Frank too stubborn/short sighted to do this? I personally think it's time that Currie should think about having a meeting w some of the players to get an accurate feel of what's going on with the program, and warn Frank to be careful with the direction he's taking the program. Really don't want #3, but if it comes to that...

[Rage Against the McKee]

You don't fire a coach one year removed from taking Kansas State to the elite 8, no matter what. If this continues over the next year or two, then firing Frank becomes an option.

[kso_FAN]

You don't fire a coach one year removed from taking Kansas State to the elite 8, no matter what. If this continues over the next year or two, then firing Frank becomes an option.

This, the only reason Frank leaves now, is on his own. Heck, he probably still gets us to postseason this year, even with a disaster season. I'm willing to give him time, I think he's earned that, but I must admit my Frank-ite-ism has waned a bit this season.

[D-FRED-BROWN]

OK, FTR I have always loved Frank as a coach and have supported him up to very recently. However, it's reached a point where I can't reasonably just blame the players on this team for "not trying hard enough", or "buying in". Besides this, Frank's rhetoric in comparison to team morale/performance has become increasingly troubling lately.

Frank has talked about leadership all year long. First it was, "our team needs some leaders". Fair enough, but so is the point that for whatever reason he has not chosen/been able to keep a number of solid role player, 4-year type kids in the program to provide some of that leadership he's wanting. Plus he hasn't replaced those kids with others that are measurably better. Then it turned into "I wasn't leading well enough, but I'm changing that now". OK, so you're man enough to talk the talk, but there's little evidence of a real change of coaching methods or team morale. In fact, just the opposite.

It seems pretty obvious to me that a lot of players cannot deal with Martin's coaching style, and understandably so. It's one thing when you have upperclassmen who have "bought in" and you run off an underclassman who you perceive to be "not measuring up". But this pattern cannot continue if we hope to have any lasting stability in the program. And yes, when this becomes a pattern, you'd better believe it affects recruiting.

To solve this, Martin has to 1.) Recruit good players who can handle his style  2.) Ease up just a bit with the drill sergeant routine and show a little patience with guys with potential or 3.) Get fired/leave.

Since I don't think #1 is realistic (obviously not working at this point), I'm hoping for #2. The question is, however, is Frank too stubborn/short sighted to do this? I personally think it's time that Currie should think about having a meeting w some of the players to get an accurate feel of what's going on with the program, and warn Frank to be careful with the direction he's taking the program. Really don't want #3, but if it comes to that...

[nicname]

goEMAWtards will avoid this thread, but I think AM makes a good point.  IMO, this huge faceplant might allow for a bit of revelation from on Frank's part.  If it hadn't been so severe, the wake-up call properties wouldn't be as strong. 

I think needs to make some pretty big changes with regard to demeanor, and stop the drama-queening and "franking" with the players.  AM is right it will kill out recruiting in the future, DC assault is only one example.  You don't have to me a boar to teach your kids determination and intensity. 

We'll see.

[Pete]

He got us the practice facility, so there's that.  I mean Currie busted his ass to go raise the money, but that phone call isn't returned if we don't make the elite 8.

Christ, you should have seen the KC Catbackers at the banquet...they were GUSHING.

[kso_FAN]

I do agree he's got to do a better job of recruiting "fit" players. Now, this doesn't necessarily just mean "good" players; at this point it doesn't matter to me if they are 3 star, 4 star, whatever; I just don't think its good for a program to have as much turnover as we've had. As Rusty said yesterday, if anything for a program based in 3 stars you have to maintain more continuity, b/c usually you'll find a couple that develop by their JR/SR years. And if you replace 3 stars with 3 stars, you only delay the progression and the odds of that happening over time and make it harder on yourself.

[Panjandrum]

I do agree he's got to do a better job of recruiting "fit" players. Now, this doesn't necessarily just mean "good" players; at this point it doesn't matter to me if they are 3 star, 4 star, whatever; I just don't think its good for a program to have as much turnover as we've had. As Rusty said yesterday, if anything for a program based in 3 stars you have to maintain more continuity, b/c usually you'll find a couple that develop by their JR/SR years. And if you replace 3 stars with 3 stars, you only delay the progression and the odds of that happening over time and make it harder on yourself.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head.

If Frank is going to be Frank, he can't just run kids off all of the time unless there's really some sure-thing bad ass waiting in the wings.

And by sure-thing, I mean top 10-15 player. 

And I'm aware that's what Wally was two years ago, but there were obviously other factors there that hindered his success.  Guys that talented don't flame out just because they get yelled at.  There's something more there.

[catzacker]

I do agree he's got to do a better job of recruiting "fit" players. Now, this doesn't necessarily just mean "good" players; at this point it doesn't matter to me if they are 3 star, 4 star, whatever; I just don't think its good for a program to have as much turnover as we've had. As Rusty said yesterday, if anything for a program based in 3 stars you have to maintain more continuity, b/c usually you'll find a couple that develop by their JR/SR years. And if you replace 3 stars with 3 stars, you only delay the progression and the odds of that happening over time and make it harder on yourself.

this.  top 150 players

07- Sutton (I'm excluding beasley, walker)
08 - Curt
09 - Judge, McGruder, Russell
'10 - Southwell (Nino? - not sure where he ended up)
'11 - Diaz, Gipson

Sutton gone, Judge gone, Russell gone/can't play.  Curt can't play.  I mean, jfc, you can't have this.  Especally when you consider that the '07 class has 1 person left from it, the entire 08 class isn't here, and your '09 class is looking like half might make it to their junior years.  

[Panjandrum]

I do agree he's got to do a better job of recruiting "fit" players. Now, this doesn't necessarily just mean "good" players; at this point it doesn't matter to me if they are 3 star, 4 star, whatever; I just don't think its good for a program to have as much turnover as we've had. As Rusty said yesterday, if anything for a program based in 3 stars you have to maintain more continuity, b/c usually you'll find a couple that develop by their JR/SR years. And if you replace 3 stars with 3 stars, you only delay the progression and the odds of that happening over time and make it harder on yourself.

this.  top 150 players

07- Sutton (I'm excluding beasley, walker)
08 - Curt
09 - Judge, McGruder, Russell
'10 - Southwell (Nino? - not sure where he ended up)
'11 - Diaz, Gipson

Sutton gone, Judge gone, Russell gone/can't play.  Curt can't play.  I mean, jfc, you can't have this.  Especally when you consider that the '07 class has 1 person left from it, the entire 08 class isn't here, and your '09 class is looking like half might make it to their junior years.  

Theory: In an attempt to get the most talent we could, we've relied on some kids that may be head cases and hoped we can turn them around.  In some cases, it worked (Clemente, Kelly...for a while).  In a lot of cases, it didn't.  And, in there, we've actually recruited some decent kids.

Anyway, just a thought.

[nicname]

I do agree he's got to do a better job of recruiting "fit" players. Now, this doesn't necessarily just mean "good" players; at this point it doesn't matter to me if they are 3 star, 4 star, whatever; I just don't think its good for a program to have as much turnover as we've had. As Rusty said yesterday, if anything for a program based in 3 stars you have to maintain more continuity, b/c usually you'll find a couple that develop by their JR/SR years. And if you replace 3 stars with 3 stars, you only delay the progression and the odds of that happening over time and make it harder on yourself.

this.  top 150 players

07- Sutton (I'm excluding beasley, walker)
08 - Curt
09 - Judge, McGruder, Russell
'10 - Southwell (Nino? - not sure where he ended up)
'11 - Diaz, Gipson

Sutton gone, Judge gone, Russell gone/can't play.  Curt can't play.  I mean, jfc, you can't have this.  Especally when you consider that the '07 class has 1 person left from it, the entire 08 class isn't here, and your '09 class is looking like half might make it to their junior years.  

Those guys, for the most part, are all fine players.  Or at least they could have been.  Either Frank & Co. are terrible evaluators of talent or they are terrible developers of talent.  My money is on the latter.

[Geezer]

My unwanted but honest opinion of Frank.
He has a good idea of what good basketball looks like but can't seem to convince his players to believe what he tells them.
Then he decides, I'll run them til they puke. They just aren't well coached. If you listened to what Tyshawn Taylor said about how we attacked your defense, you will learn how easy you are to beat.
I think it's more on Frank's assistants at this point. The skills and scheme don't match the players abilities and it's the staff's responsibility to make it all work. Frank does a good job of representing the program but his approach has certainly failed at this point with this team.

What has 400K Delonte done lately?

[Acceleration Man]

You don't fire a coach one year removed from taking Kansas State to the elite 8, no matter what. If this continues over the next year or two, then firing Frank becomes an option.

This, the only reason Frank leaves now, is on his own. Heck, he probably still gets us to postseason this year, even with a disaster season. I'm willing to give him time, I think he's earned that, but I must admit my Frank-ite-ism has waned a bit this season.

Yes, I agree, no way Frank gets fired (or would be a good move) this year. Unless he completely goes ballistic (and with the drama of this season, anything is possible). But I think Currie should be sitting up and taking notice of what's going on, be the good cop and slow play it for now.

Those guys, for the most part, are all fine players.  Or at least they could have been.  Either Frank & Co. are terrible evaluators of talent or they are terrible developers of talent.  My money is on the latter.

This is more of what I was referring to with Frank's rhetoric. He said this team is more talented than last year's. This may or may not be true, but it seems like it's comparable, anyway. So in this case, and combined with the # of players that got fed up/forced out -- the developing of talent has been sorely deficient.

[Pete]

What has 400K Delonte done lately?

My theory on this is very similar to Lew's theory with football coaches....just get the word out there that we are willing to pay these kind of crazy numbers to undeserving coaches, and watch them pick up the phone when I call later. (sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, right?)

[Geezer]

Good point.
Delonte has been around a little longer.
We'll see about the 2 million dollar man.

[michigancat]

this board and wabash need to get a rough ridin' room and make out.

[Pete]

Good point.
Delonte has been around a little longer.
We'll see about the 2 million dollar man.

Meh, Dalonte paid his bill....elite 8 and a #2 pick in the draft were worth it...considering where we were coming from.  I'm ready for the next 'Te.

[gatoveintisiete]

this board and wabash need to get a effing room and make out.

[kso_FAN]

And I'm aware that's what Wally was two years ago, but there were obviously other factors there that hindered his success.  Guys that talented don't flame out just because they get yelled at.  There's something more there.

Yeah, I don't blame Frank alone for Wally. I don't blame Frank alone for Asprilla. Or Sutton. Or Brown. Etc.

But collectively there is a problem. I can understand a few, even 1.5 per year on average might be reasonable. But we're getting way over that, and losing multiple players with more than one year in the program now. This is what becomes a concern, and you just can't maintain a program without Top 50 (or better) talent with this much turnover. Some adjustments will have to be made, your staff is supposed to be your good cop here, and if anything, keeping a guy like Wally is something Dalonte should make sure happens. Especially when Dalonte is the main reason he is here.

[CHONGS]

Of most interest to me (at this point in time) is how goEMAW is reacting to this news.  Fascinating study.

[Panjandrum]

And I'm aware that's what Wally was two years ago, but there were obviously other factors there that hindered his success.  Guys that talented don't flame out just because they get yelled at.  There's something more there.

Yeah, I don't blame Frank alone for Wally. I don't blame Frank alone for Asprilla. Or Sutton. Or Brown. Etc.

But collectively there is a problem. I can understand a few, even 1.5 per year on average might be reasonable. But we're getting way over that, and losing multiple players with more than one year in the program now. This is what becomes a concern, and you just can't maintain a program without Top 50 (or better) talent with this much turnover. Some adjustments will have to be made, your staff is supposed to be your good cop here, and if anything, keeping a guy like Wally is something Dalonte should make sure happens. Especially when Dalonte is the main reason he is here.

100% true.

There is something systematically wrong with the program right now with all of the turnover.

He needs to do what Barnes did over the off-season and do some soul searching and wander the country like David Carradine in Kung Fu.  He needs to search for different philosophies and maybe, just maybe, an offense.

[Clevey 2 Times]

I do agree he's got to do a better job of recruiting "fit" players. Now, this doesn't necessarily just mean "good" players; at this point it doesn't matter to me if they are 3 star, 4 star, whatever; I just don't think its good for a program to have as much turnover as we've had. As Rusty said yesterday, if anything for a program based in 3 stars you have to maintain more continuity, b/c usually you'll find a couple that develop by their JR/SR years. And if you replace 3 stars with 3 stars, you only delay the progression and the odds of that happening over time and make it harder on yourself.

this.  top 150 players

07- Sutton (I'm excluding beasley, walker)
08 - Curt
09 - Judge, McGruder, Russell
'10 - Southwell (Nino? - not sure where he ended up)
'11 - Diaz, Gipson

Sutton gone, Judge gone, Russell gone/can't play.  Curt can't play.  I mean, jfc, you can't have this.  Especally when you consider that the '07 class has 1 person left from it, the entire 08 class isn't here, and your '09 class is looking like half might make it to their junior years.  

Those guys, for the most part, are all fine players.  Or at least they could have been.  Either Frank & Co. are terrible evaluators of talent or they are terrible developers of talent.  My money is on the latter.

Really, with all those players listed, only 2 left the program. I think you can criticize the staff on player development to a certain extent, but I'd be curious to see just how much stability there is at comparable programs to ours?