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General Discussion => The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit => Topic started by: Kat Kid on October 29, 2021, 11:24:14 AM
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This is a cool story I just read:
https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-denmark/ (https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-denmark/)
McDonalds decided not to follow the union agreement and thus set up its own pay levels and work rules instead. This was a departure, not just from what Danish companies did, but even from what other similar foreign companies did. For example, Burger King, which is identical to McDonalds in all relevant respects, decided to follow the union agreement when it came to Denmark a few years earlier.
.......
Dockworkers refused to unload containers that had McDonalds equipment in them. Printers refused to supply printed materials to the stores, such as menus and cups. Construction workers refused to build McDonalds stores and even stopped construction on a store that was already in progress but not yet complete. The typographers union refused to place McDonalds advertisements in publications, which eliminated the company’s print advertisement presence. Truckers refused to deliver food and beer to McDonalds. Food and beverage workers that worked at facilities that prepared food for the stores refused to work on McDonalds products.
In addition to wreaking havoc on McDonalds supply chains, the unions engaged in picketing and leaflet campaigns in front of McDonalds locations, urging consumers to boycott the company.
Once the sympathy strikes got going, McDonalds folded pretty quickly and decided to start following the hotel and restaurant agreement in 1989.
This is why McDonalds workers in Denmark are paid $22 per hour.
(https://mattbruenig.com/wp-content/uploads/1983-1220-landogfolk-finn-svensson-001-600.jpeg)
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Power to the people
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Very cool. Solidarity is an awesome thing.
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why do people get so mad at unions? Like I get why CEO's hate them, but why do so many like average working folks hate them so much?
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A lot of people are dumb.
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I also think some people are just envious of the idea/promise of a union and use that misplaced anger to criticize union workers.
And don't get me wrong there are tons of corrupt unions/union bosses out there but the corruption is usually the opposite of what you hear right wingers talk about, like the UAW president that got kickbacks for negotiating a bad contract for his union with Chrysler/Fiat.
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Unions protect lazy/bad workers like 420seriouscat69 protects the unvaxxed.
I support unions, although selfishly I don't want to be in one.
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I'd say the people who get mad about unions are the same one who'd get mad about taxing rich people more and poor people less. And for similar reasons.
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IT'S NOT FAIR
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Unions protect lazy/bad workers like 420seriouscat69 protects the unvaxxed.
I support unions, although selfishly I don't want to be in one.
This can be true, but in my experience good workers get protected as much as bad because good people insist on following the contract and bad workers generally are not rule followers and try to leverage personal relationships with management to avoid accountability. The contract is two ways, if workers aren't following it they get held accountable too. Report times, "duties", those things matter.
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why do people get so mad at unions? Like I get why CEO's hate them, but why do so many like average working folks hate them so much?
You know that thinking is really stupid. CEOs' are unions of one like most executives as they have a law firm negotiate their labor contract.
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Very cool. Solidarity is an awesome thing.
You said it. The lengths that people have gone to in the past to support each other during strikes to achieve a common goal is awe-inspiring. The civil rights movement and the labor movement are two of the best things America has ever achieved.
If anyone here has not watched it, Harlan County, USA is one of my favorite films of all time about a coal miner's strike in Kentucky. Just checked and it is on Criterion, will definitely watch this weekend.
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why do people get so mad at unions? Like I get why CEO's hate them, but why do so many like average working folks hate them so much?
well, they're trying to take my job away from me is the main thing.
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why do people get so mad at unions? Like I get why CEO's hate them, but why do so many like average working folks hate them so much?
well, they're trying to take my job away from me is the main thing.
hmm is that the case for most folks?
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why do people get so mad at unions? Like I get why CEO's hate them, but why do so many like average working folks hate them so much?
Because fire fighters, police, etc. make too much money and my tax dollars pay them! :shakesfist:
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hmm is that the case for most folks?
probably not, but people should be more aware that unions represent their members, and no one else. sometimes the interests of their members overlaps with the common good, but often it doesn't.
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Police unions are the worst. I would be in favor of getting rid of all unions just to get rid of police unions.
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Police unions are bad, but that’s because police are bad not because unions are bad.
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Very cool. Solidarity is an awesome thing.
You said it. The lengths that people have gone to in the past to support each other during strikes to achieve a common goal is awe-inspiring. The civil rights movement and the labor movement are two of the best things America has ever achieved.
If anyone here has not watched it, Harlan County, USA is one of my favorite films of all time about a coal miner's strike in Kentucky. Just checked and it is on Criterion, will definitely watch this weekend.
I haven’t seen that movie, but I do love the long form documentary series about Harlan County: Justified
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Unions protect lazy/bad workers like 420seriouscat69 protects the unvaxxed.
I support unions, although selfishly I don't want to be in one.
This can be true, but in my experience good workers get protected as much as bad because good people insist on following the contract and bad workers generally are not rule followers and try to leverage personal relationships with management to avoid accountability. The contract is two ways, if workers aren't following it they get held accountable too. Report times, "duties", those things matter.
Yeah, you’re not biased or anything
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My whole thread about unions being good might've tipped you off that I am pro-union.
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I was thinking about it, and it seems like there's a lot of hate on unions based on anecdotes about one of them not moving a box in a factory because it wasn't their job or something. Is that still a thing people hate about unions?
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I have mixed feelings about unions but not for that reason michigancat
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I was thinking about it, and it seems like there's a lot of hate on unions based on anecdotes about one of them not moving a box in a factory because it wasn't their job or something. Is that still a thing people hate about unions?
I have absolutely ran into this sort of thing in construction. It seems more an bad person problem than a union problem though.
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unions give assholes the ability to openly be assholes with no fear of repercussions. they also give underrepresented a voice. I think they are important but extremely flawed and my opinion on their levels of importance/good run the gamut based on which union you are talking about.
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also I'm not knowledgeable enough about them to propose a better solution so I should probably just stfu
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The upside is that they truly help people (including people not in one) earn enough not to live in poverty and have a decent life. I'm not aware of any downsides that outweigh that.
I'd say the people who get mad about unions are the same one who'd get mad about taxing rich people more and poor people less. And for similar reasons.
Add the people who get mad about raising the minimum wage and/or certain types of workers (e.g. fast food) making too much money.
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Surprised wacky hasn't weighed in yet. He hates these things.
Edit: nvm, thought the thread was about onions.
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I was thinking about it, and it seems like there's a lot of hate on unions based on anecdotes about one of them not moving a box in a factory because it wasn't their job or something. Is that still a thing people hate about unions?
I have absolutely ran into this sort of thing in construction. It seems more an bad person problem than a union problem though.
i've seen it a fair bit too, but it's usually sort of a higher-level discussion (like managers or union reps trying to sort out if a task is a laborer task or an operator task, not a guy in the field). and it's almost always in the opposite direction. like not some guy saying, hey, i'm not doing that. it's someone saying, hey, these other people need to stop doing that, that's our job.
another union thing i see is that people want to fire someone but they can't just fire him because he's bad at his job or whatever, so they have someone watch him for like a week or whatever until they catch him committing a fireable offense (like not wearing safety equipment or something).
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https://twitter.com/jonahfurman/status/1454880585600675845?s=21
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I think scabs are underrepresented. There should be a union for them.
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I think scabs are underrepresented. There should be a union for them.
I know that are the shits to peel or pick. :curse: I would tend to let them alone, so things can heal naturally. :D
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there are so many of these stories. not great.
https://twitter.com/ByIanJames/status/1458924460132560908
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I don't think it's been discussed here but John Deere are forcing their salaried workers to manufacture parts. Could you imagine getting a job at John Deere out of college in the marketing department only to be placed on an assembly line?
I used to host about a hundred John Deere employees each year you the United Way Day of Caring. It's a day of volunteering, we got a mix of hourly and salaried employees and generally, while nice people, those salaried employees were relatively inept with their hands when compared to the works employees.
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I don't think it's been discussed here but John Deere are forcing their salaried workers to manufacture parts. Could you imagine getting a job at John Deere out of college in the marketing department only to be placed on an assembly line?
I used to host about a hundred John Deere employees each year you the United Way Day of Caring. It's a day of volunteering, we got a mix of hourly and salaried employees and generally, while nice people, those salaried employees were relatively inept with their hands when compared to the works employees.
Keep your eye on the lemon list for these built JDs'.
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I don't think it's been discussed here but John Deere are forcing their salaried workers to manufacture parts. Could you imagine getting a job at John Deere out of college in the marketing department only to be placed on an assembly line?
I used to host about a hundred John Deere employees each year you the United Way Day of Caring. It's a day of volunteering, we got a mix of hourly and salaried employees and generally, while nice people, those salaried employees were relatively inept with their hands when compared to the works employees.
I don't remember where I saw it but one office employee wrote a letter to an outlet that was basically "lol at them thinking we can do this. Realizing how inept we are is going to be a huge boost to the strikers"
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I don't think it's been discussed here but John Deere are forcing their salaried workers to manufacture parts. Could you imagine getting a job at John Deere out of college in the marketing department only to be placed on an assembly line?
I used to host about a hundred John Deere employees each year you the United Way Day of Caring. It's a day of volunteering, we got a mix of hourly and salaried employees and generally, while nice people, those salaried employees were relatively inept with their hands when compared to the works employees.
I don't remember where I saw it but one office employee wrote a letter to an outlet that was basically "lol at them thinking we can do this. Realizing how inept we are is going to be a huge boost to the strikers"
Might I ask what kind of difficult stuff do you think they’ll be doing?
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https://theintercept.com/2021/10/26/john-deere-strike-accident/
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I was thinking about it, and it seems like there's a lot of hate on unions based on anecdotes about one of them not moving a box in a factory because it wasn't their job or something. Is that still a thing people hate about unions?
I have absolutely ran into this sort of thing in construction. It seems more an bad person problem than a union problem though.
i've seen it a fair bit too, but it's usually sort of a higher-level discussion (like managers or union reps trying to sort out if a task is a laborer task or an operator task, not a guy in the field). and it's almost always in the opposite direction. like not some guy saying, hey, i'm not doing that. it's someone saying, hey, these other people need to stop doing that, that's our job.
another union thing i see is that people want to fire someone but they can't just fire him because he's bad at his job or whatever, so they have someone watch him for like a week or whatever until they catch him committing a fireable offense (like not wearing safety equipment or something).
I worked for a contractor who ran a BNSF facility for a couple of years. The train crews were still BNSF union people so I interacted with them daily and told them what to do, 95% of them were perfectly fine but the 5% could make your life a living hell. All they had to say was "I dont feel safe" and then spend 1 hr manually checking all the brake lines on the train/etc which could totally throw off your whole day.
The "Thats not my job" is a very real thing. We had our own switch crew who would move rail cars around in our yard and during a slow time one of them told me one of the engines had leaked some oil and asked if he had enough time to clean it up before the next train arrived. The BNSF manager next to me was flabbergasted and explained that if that happened at a yard the BNSF union ran a completely different employee would have to handle the minor oil spill because it was "their job" and the switchman wouldn't be allowed to do it.
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The "Thats not my job" is a very real thing. We had our own switch crew who would move rail cars around in our yard and during a slow time one of them told me one of the engines had leaked some oil and asked if he had enough time to clean it up before the next train arrived. The BNSF manager next to me was flabbergasted and explained that if that happened at a yard the BNSF union ran a completely different employee would have to handle the minor oil spill because it was "their job" and the switchman wouldn't be allowed to do it.
Without knowing the details I can see that also being a safety issue
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Side note that was probably my favorite job of all time, think about an air traffic controller but for trains. I would sit in the office with like 6 screens, camera's that could zoom in on every area of the yard, a radio with like 6 channels on it where I could talk to trains/our switch crew/our yard crew/train repair people/etc. You would move these little colored boxes from the stacks to empty train cars on the computer screen and the yard workers would follow your instructions, it was like playing a video game but if I mumped up someone might die.
But it was also 12 hr shifts 5am-5pm, every other weekend including holidays which kind of got old after a while.
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The "Thats not my job" is a very real thing. We had our own switch crew who would move rail cars around in our yard and during a slow time one of them told me one of the engines had leaked some oil and asked if he had enough time to clean it up before the next train arrived. The BNSF manager next to me was flabbergasted and explained that if that happened at a yard the BNSF union ran a completely different employee would have to handle the minor oil spill because it was "their job" and the switchman wouldn't be allowed to do it.
Without knowing the details I can see that also being a safety issue
It was basically throwing some kitty litter on some oil then scooping it up and disposing of it.
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The "Thats not my job" is a very real thing. We had our own switch crew who would move rail cars around in our yard and during a slow time one of them told me one of the engines had leaked some oil and asked if he had enough time to clean it up before the next train arrived. The BNSF manager next to me was flabbergasted and explained that if that happened at a yard the BNSF union ran a completely different employee would have to handle the minor oil spill because it was "their job" and the switchman wouldn't be allowed to do it.
Without knowing the details I can see that also being a safety issue
It was basically throwing some kitty litter on some oil then scooping it up and disposing of it.
So a chemical spill in an active rail yard? Surely the logic of the quirky job division is SOMEWHAT rooted in safety...
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I don't think it's been discussed here but John Deere are forcing their salaried workers to manufacture parts. Could you imagine getting a job at John Deere out of college in the marketing department only to be placed on an assembly line?
I used to host about a hundred John Deere employees each year you the United Way Day of Caring. It's a day of volunteering, we got a mix of hourly and salaried employees and generally, while nice people, those salaried employees were relatively inept with their hands when compared to the works employees.
I don't remember where I saw it but one office employee wrote a letter to an outlet that was basically "lol at them thinking we can do this. Realizing how inept we are is going to be a huge boost to the strikers"
Might I ask what kind of difficult stuff do you think they’ll be doing?
There's a reason it's considered skilled labor. They're assembling parts, if automation could easily handle that the workers would have been gone long ago.
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There are tons of things that are probably “good enough” and don’t require following a rule/contract but the reason the procedures in the contract that people find annoying are put there are usually to ensure competency/reduce liability. People act like OSHAA is basically a terrorist organization but it is there for a reason.
It isn’t likely that cleaning up a body spill is going to get someone hep or HIV abut not following those procedures is a pretty good way to get written up. Same is true for an oil spill. As you said, the small chance of a catastrophe means you mitigate the risk, that has eff all to do with the union other than it ensures procedures and contract language is followed and isn’t just some manager playing fast and loose with peoples lives in cases large and small.
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oh no.
https://twitter.com/beardedcrank/status/1200597087278096384
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https://twitter.com/Noahpinion/status/1526235034432090112
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Are unions the reason you can't pump your own gas in New Jersey? Always found that curious.
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Are unions the reason you can't pump your own gas in New Jersey? Always found that curious.
Nope, it's a safety regulation passed back in the day when people couldn't be bothered to take the damn cigarette outta their mouth even when pumping flammable gas into their car:
https://jalopnik.com/heres-why-some-places-in-the-u-s-still-wont-let-you-pu-1846694716
When I lived in Massachusetts, the gas stations there were required by law (and as far as I know still are) to remove the little tab that keeps the pump handle open without holding it so you had to stand there and hold the pump handle when filling up with gas like a peasant. Really annoying, especially on a day when it's 0 degrees out and snowing.
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https://twitter.com/julie_goats/status/1526022252701143040?s=21&t=kj4czcq2RdbDZIYmxJ02iQ
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https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1526940083563405312
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That is a dumb headline. Might as well say “some people” or “some unions” instead of unions.
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oh crap. he does have dementia.
https://twitter.com/FreeBeacon/status/1536735452039987206
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I just talked with a guy who is trying to organize teachers and help ensure students do not get kicked out of schools in rural Zimbabwe for not being able to afford their student fees.
His thanks for organizing? Getting beat up and intimidated by the government. You will cheer the first rounds of union busting when trump or Desantis just completely dismantle the NLRB (and the rest of the regulatory agencies) but you probably wouldn’t like a world without unions and you definitely wouldn’t like a world where labor never organized.
Dont be a smug crap poster.
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How would a union have spared that person from the government in that scenario? (Serious question. I may just not understand what unions do.)
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How would a union have spared that person from the government in that scenario? (Serious question. I may just not understand what unions do.)
The union organizing he is doing is the reason for him being harassed and beaten up by the government. But his union brothers and sisters are also the people that help protect him and help him get lawyers to bail him out and also are working to change things.
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But how does not being a union prevent them from doing that? Or are you saying they need the push because they don’t necessarily want to help him on their own?
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But how does not being a union prevent them from doing that? Or are you saying they need the push because they don’t necessarily want to help him on their own?
He is in the union to try to change his working conditions, the education system in Zimbabwe, and organize to improve Zimbabwe in general through democratic means. I don’t know what you mean.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220819/b47423dba22db2257af8156645d74d17.jpg)
Yes, shocking how that works morons.
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Rusty, add this to my republican list if you are keeping a tally.
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bust their asses, yuppie food service franchises.
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It is a cruel irony to see the old lessons of the labor movement be buried under a few decades of the crushed dreams of previous brothers and sisters in the struggle and these individual stores can’t see that it is all about
SOLIDARITY!(https://media0.giphy.com/media/L45ndNMUWekpfIbhUU/giphy.gif)
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/RGekv386nyok1Bjcus/giphy.gif)
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/L45ndNMUWekpfIbhUU/giphy.gif)
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Rusty, add this to my republican list if you are keeping a tally.
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Serious question, why do you care if baristas unionize? (I have given it no thought)
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Rusty, add this to my republican list if you are keeping a tally.
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Serious question, why do you care if baristas unionize? (I have given it no thought)
They can unionize at will. I support their efforts. I also support their employer closing up shop if they think it’s no longer in their best interest. Capitalism rules.
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Rusty, add this to my republican list if you are keeping a tally.
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Serious question, why do you care if baristas unionize? (I have given it no thought)
They can unionize at will. I support their efforts. I also support their employer closing up shop if they think it’s no longer in their best interest. Capitalism rules.
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I'm pretty sure that's a mainline Dem position!
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Closing stores because people want a union is a bitch move :th_twocents:
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Welcome to capitalism mother fuckers. These colors don’t run.
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Rusty, add this to my republican list if you are keeping a tally.
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Serious question, why do you care if baristas unionize? (I have given it no thought)
They can unionize at will. I support their efforts. I also support their employer closing up shop if they think it’s no longer in their best interest. Capitalism rules.
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I'm pretty sure that's a mainline Dem position!
I’ve got some shocking news for you about who it is irl a mainline position for…..
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I’ve got some shocking news for you about who it is irl a mainline position for…..
yeah, lol.
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Which party favors employer friendly legislation and which favors worker friendly legislation? Pretty obvious, really.
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Closing stores because people want a union is a bitch move :th_twocents:
Not near as big of a bitch move as accepting a job that’s non-union and then trying to unionize it
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There’s nothing wrong with trying (as you see fit) to best improve the working conditions of your place of employment. But if the employer flat out rejects the attempts, then the breakup should be mutual.
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Rusty, add this to my republican list if you are keeping a tally.
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Serious question, why do you care if baristas unionize? (I have given it no thought)
They can unionize at will. I support their efforts. I also support their employer closing up shop if they think it%u2019s no longer in their best interest. Capitalism rules.
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I'm pretty sure that's a mainline Dem position!
I%u2019ve got some shocking news for you about who it is irl a mainline position for%u2026..
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I mean is Joe Biden or Chuck Schumer gonna come out in support of the workers here or comment in any way? no. Neither party is going to do anything, you are a IRL dem
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Being enthusiastic about unionizing your job feels connected to a intention to being at that job for a while. I’d feel a little down inside rallying with my fellow chipotle cohorts to unionize.
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Yes, Steve Dave is an establishment Democrat and he hates it
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Yes, Steve Dave is an establishment Democrat and he hates it
He doesn't realize that while he was sitting still, the line of demarcation passed him by unawares.
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Closing stores because people want a union is a bitch move :th_twocents:
Not near as big of a bitch move as accepting a job that’s non-union and then trying to unionize it
That is the opposite of a bitch move.
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Yes successfully unionizing a non union job is about as boss as it gets. That crap is hard.
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Closing stores because people want a union is a bitch move :th_twocents:
Not near as big of a bitch move as accepting a job that’s non-union and then trying to unionize it
That is the opposite of a bitch move.
Then closing stores is also the opposite of a bitch move kk
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Rusty, add this to my republican list if you are keeping a tally.
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Serious question, why do you care if baristas unionize? (I have given it no thought)
They can unionize at will. I support their efforts. I also support their employer closing up shop if they think it%u2019s no longer in their best interest. Capitalism rules.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm pretty sure that's a mainline Dem position!
I%u2019ve got some shocking news for you about who it is irl a mainline position for%u2026..
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I mean is Joe Biden or Chuck Schumer gonna come out in support of the workers here or comment in any way? no. Neither party is going to do anything, you are a IRL dem
What? Biden constantly honks off to unions. It’s one of his favorite things to honk off to!
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Yes, Steve Dave is an establishment Democrat and he hates it
He doesn't realize that while he was sitting still, the line of demarcation passed him by unawares.
Oh I realize it, but I’ve got some things still on the other side. It’s probably a matter of time if stuff doesn’t stop being stupid.
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Closing stores because people want a union is a bitch move :th_twocents:
Not near as big of a bitch move as accepting a job that’s non-union and then trying to unionize it
Uh buddy, all jobs are non unionized until someone makes a decision to unionize them.
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Rusty, add this to my republican list if you are keeping a tally.
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Serious question, why do you care if baristas unionize? (I have given it no thought)
They can unionize at will. I support their efforts. I also support their employer closing up shop if they think it%u2019s no longer in their best interest. Capitalism rules.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm pretty sure that's a mainline Dem position!
I%u2019ve got some shocking news for you about who it is irl a mainline position for%u2026..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I mean is Joe Biden or Chuck Schumer gonna come out in support of the workers here or comment in any way? no. Neither party is going to do anything, you are a IRL dem
What? Biden constantly honks off to unions. It’s one of his favorite things to honk off to!
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Oh come on he likes unions that get their white Midwestern hands dirty in factories not fancy pants baristas. And he's not gonna do anything for either given how fast he caved on the electric vehicle thing
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i saw a genuine blue collar union social event today (international brotherhood of electrical workers annual picnic in a park) and i thought about how much kat kid would have liked it.
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i saw a genuine blue collar union social event today (international brotherhood of electrical workers annual picnic in a park) and i thought about how much kat kid would have liked it.
Thank you sys. Beautiful.
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Closing stores because people want a union is a bitch move :th_twocents:
Not near as big of a bitch move as accepting a job that’s non-union and then trying to unionize it
Uh buddy, all jobs are non unionized until someone makes a decision to unionize them.
Was thinking this too. We know whether it’s the chicken or the egg in this case.
I “get” both sides tho. Starbucks and Trader Joe’s seem to be overall a much more fair employer over the years than their competitors…doesn’t seem like they “deserve” this compared with others. Tho I completely agree that one of the reasons this country has a middle class is because of unions, and they deserve my support. IDK, maybe it’s just my defect of character of “going against authority” itching.
In my job I watch management eff labor all the time. Kinda wears on me.
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Closing stores because people want a union is a bitch move :th_twocents:
Not near as big of a bitch move as accepting a job that’s non-union and then trying to unionize it
Uh buddy, all jobs are non unionized until someone makes a decision to unionize them.
Was thinking this too. We know whether it’s the chicken or the egg in this case.
I “get” both sides tho. Starbucks and Trader Joe’s seem to be overall a much more fair employer over the years than their competitors…doesn’t seem like they “deserve” this compared with others. Tho I completely agree that one of the reasons this country has a middle class is because of unions, and they deserve my support. IDK, maybe it’s just my defect of character of “going against authority” itching.
In my job I watch management eff labor all the time. Kinda wears on me.
I think people lash out against union workers who aren't tradesmen because we were all taught that unions were created to protect the safety of workers and the safety of someone working at Trader Joe's seems laughable to nearly everyone.
As far as these two cases go. Starbucks is definitely notorious for overworking employees. I think any business with franchisees run the risk of the franchisee not adhering to company standards and ideals. Specific to Starbucks, and frankly most franchises, the corporate structure is too far removed from the rank and file, and are either slow to respond or simply ignore issues in their stores.
I don't know what the issue, if there is one, with Trader Joe's. There have been unions for grocery workers for generations. TJs has a lot more to lose with trying to bust unions than they stand to gain. I can't imagine, outside of their main rival, Whole Foods, a business with a more liberal customer base. And like I said every other major grocery chain in the country employ union workers.
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This proliferation of union workers in places we haven't seen before is like everything else. The workers are more aware of the profits of their employers, because they want to make more money by becoming publicly traded. With each passing generation there's less of an appetite for just accepting authority, and that's a good thing. Join these things with the fact that the internet and social media has really shrunk the world and gives everyone access to an audience. It's easy to tell your story to the masses and find people to rally to your cause.
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I wish I could find a graph of food service industry jobs over time. I don’t know what the Department of Labor’s definition of food service is, but I’d include grocery stores in that. It just seems like there’s so many more of these jobs than there were 30 years ago when they were considered “McJobs”. That would lead me to believe there’s more people relying on them for primary income. I get the sentiment from their employees that if companies like Starbucks/Trader Joes are going to make money & operate like more “traditional” businesses did 30 years ago where they wanted their employees to think of their jobs in terms of a career, then employees now should demand their employers treat them as long-term employees & not just people working McJobs.
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The employee has never had more power than they do right now. And that’s a great thing imo. It’s already fading though. Supply and demand is undefeated.
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I think you are seeing a tug of war between labor and capital and for the first time in my life labor has been winning some real victories (albeit small and hard fought).
Some of this is down to some really unique circumstances of the labor market giving workers more leverage but other labor victories have been in areas that don’t have much history of labor militancy like the various labor actions by teachers across several states in 2018-19.
The Amazon organizers in jersey city Chris Smalls and Derrick Palmer are great examples of organizers combining old school and new school tactics and they successfully organized a warehouse basically without any traditional union support, an incredible achievement.
The big challenge is that classic American combination no solidarity of any kind, class or otherwise, with the belief that being self-employed as an independent contractor by a major corporation sets you apart and is an opportunity to grow your business instead of an excuse for capital to vacuum up profits and not even invest in the tools of the trade but rather making their workforce do it themselves.
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You will just see the speed of automation increase as labor becomes more expensive. I don’t blame people for attempting to unionize but in these industries especially it will be a fleeting victory.
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You will just see the speed of automation increase as labor becomes more expensive. I don’t blame people for attempting to unionize but in these industries especially it will be a fleeting victory.
Of course, but this is a constant.
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You will just see the speed of automation increase as labor becomes more expensive. I don’t blame people for attempting to unionize but in these industries especially it will be a fleeting victory.
Of course, but this is a constant.
And it's been happening long enough where we've seen the shift to the labor not disappearing but being used to manage the automation. There are studies that have shown that automation has led to fewer jobs lost than what was though the case would be when we started in this trend 30 years ago. Manufacturing has incorporated automation long before that. Until machines have the capability to think, program, and fix themselves, you still need people to do those things.
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CATHIE WOOD HAS ENTERED THE CHAT
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Good thread guys.
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You will just see the speed of automation increase as labor becomes more expensive. I don’t blame people for attempting to unionize but in these industries especially it will be a fleeting victory.
Of course, but this is a constant.
And it's been happening long enough where we've seen the shift to the labor not disappearing but being used to manage the automation. There are studies that have shown that automation has led to fewer jobs lost than what was though the case would be when we started in this trend 30 years ago. Manufacturing has incorporated automation long before that. Until machines have the capability to think, program, and fix themselves, you still need people to do those things.
I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
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You will just see the speed of automation increase as labor becomes more expensive. I don’t blame people for attempting to unionize but in these industries especially it will be a fleeting victory.
Of course, but this is a constant.
And it's been happening long enough where we've seen the shift to the labor not disappearing but being used to manage the automation. There are studies that have shown that automation has led to fewer jobs lost than what was though the case would be when we started in this trend 30 years ago. Manufacturing has incorporated automation long before that. Until machines have the capability to think, program, and fix themselves, you still need people to do those things.
I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
https://hbr.org/2021/11/automation-doesnt-just-create-or-destroy-jobs-it-transforms-them
The World Economic Forum estimates that by 2025, technology will create at least 12 million more jobs than it destroys, a sign that in the long run, automation will be a net positive for society.
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I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
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I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
It’s really more the shifting of labor mentioned I was interested in. I went down the trail of the article and the study it referenced and it was pretty much as I expected. The type of jobs automation creates won’t be filled by the people it displaces.
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I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
Link?
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You will just see the speed of automation increase as labor becomes more expensive. I don’t blame people for attempting to unionize but in these industries especially it will be a fleeting victory.
Of course, but this is a constant.
And it's been happening long enough where we've seen the shift to the labor not disappearing but being used to manage the automation. There are studies that have shown that automation has led to fewer jobs lost than what was though the case would be when we started in this trend 30 years ago. Manufacturing has incorporated automation long before that. Until machines have the capability to think, program, and fix themselves, you still need people to do those things.
I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
https://hbr.org/2021/11/automation-doesnt-just-create-or-destroy-jobs-it-transforms-them
The World Economic Forum estimates that by 2025, technology will create at least 12 million more jobs than it destroys, a sign that in the long run, automation will be a net positive for society.
This will transform jobs. However, it may exacerbate an already existing split in workers. The jobs that automation creates will most likely require more technical know how. Isn't this a replay of the coal miners being told to learn to code?
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I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
It’s really more the shifting of labor mentioned I was interested in. I went down the trail of the article and the study it referenced and it was pretty much as I expected. The type of jobs automation creates won’t be filled by the people it displaces.
Are you just talking about the natural evolution of labor? Model Ts were manufactured very differently than '55 Thunderbirds were even though both were made on assembly lines by Ford. The way we make and sell hamburgers has changed several times the last 70 years, same as how we stock grocery shelves. Chalking up the inevitable change to how products are manufactured and distributed to automation displacing jobs seems naive.
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I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
Link?
Do you have a link that says otherwise? It's pretty clear that most humans use productivity gains and the ability to produce more per hour to consume more. They do not use those gains to decrease the amount they work. There are exceptions of course, but I would say this is generally true.
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I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn%u2019t really make sense to me.
pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
Link?
Do you have a link that says otherwise? It's pretty clear that most humans use productivity gains and the ability to produce more per hour to consume more. They do not use those gains to decrease the amount they work. There are exceptions of course, but I would say this is generally true.
I mean that is clearly not the truth everywhere even in modern western cultures. Unless if you count all of Europe taking all of August off as consumption? Do people work as much as they did in early industrial revolution factories?
But like yeah human history has a wide variety of work/consumption balances. I happen to be reading this right now which makes me an expert!
https://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Everything-New-History-Humanity-ebook/dp/B08R2KL3VY/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=dawn+of+everything&qid=1661270720&sr=8-1
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I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn%u2019t really make sense to me.
pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
Link?
Do you have a link that says otherwise? It's pretty clear that most humans use productivity gains and the ability to produce more per hour to consume more. They do not use those gains to decrease the amount they work. There are exceptions of course, but I would say this is generally true.
I mean that is clearly not the truth everywhere even in modern western cultures. Unless if you count all of Europe taking all of August off as consumption? Do people work as much as they did in early industrial revolution factories?
But like yeah human history has a wide variety of work/consumption balances. I happen to be reading this right now which makes me an expert!
https://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Everything-New-History-Humanity-ebook/dp/B08R2KL3VY/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=dawn+of+everything&qid=1661270720&sr=8-1
GDP per hour worked in Germany and France is 7x what is was in 1950. Do you think workers in those countries are working 1/7 what they did in 1950? It's a similar story in other Western European countries.
GDP per hour worked in the US is 3-4x what it was in 1950. I don't think US workers are working 1/3 to 1/4 as much as they did in 1950.
We may work less than we did in Industrial Revolution factories, but I don't know if that is the case, especially if you look at the per capita amount of work across all people in a country (workers and non-workers). However, I am quite confident that the amount we work today has not been reduced proportionally to productivity gains. Moreover, I am confident that the vast majority of productivity gains have been devoted to increased consumption. Just because some productivity gains have been devoted to working less does not mean workers prefer using productivity gains to work less than using those gains to consume more. The preference is to use the gains to consume more.
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are all consumption increases made by choice?
Is 1950-2022 the best representation of the history of mankind?
Does the EU consume as much as the US?
If not, are their hours worked increasing relative to the US?
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I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
It’s really more the shifting of labor mentioned I was interested in. I went down the trail of the article and the study it referenced and it was pretty much as I expected. The type of jobs automation creates won’t be filled by the people it displaces.
Are you just talking about the natural evolution of labor? Model Ts were manufactured very differently than '55 Thunderbirds were even though both were made on assembly lines by Ford. The way we make and sell hamburgers has changed several times the last 70 years, same as how we stock grocery shelves. Chalking up the inevitable change to how products are manufactured and distributed to automation displacing jobs seems naive.
CNS summed up my thoughts a few posts up pretty well, a widening gap between jobs available to unskilled vs skilled workers.
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I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
It’s really more the shifting of labor mentioned I was interested in. I went down the trail of the article and the study it referenced and it was pretty much as I expected. The type of jobs automation creates won’t be filled by the people it displaces.
Are you just talking about the natural evolution of labor? Model Ts were manufactured very differently than '55 Thunderbirds were even though both were made on assembly lines by Ford. The way we make and sell hamburgers has changed several times the last 70 years, same as how we stock grocery shelves. Chalking up the inevitable change to how products are manufactured and distributed to automation displacing jobs seems naive.
CNS summed up my thoughts a few posts up pretty well, a widening gap between jobs available to unskilled vs skilled workers.
I somehow missed CNS' post until you pointed it out. However, I'd counter with factory jobs and mining jobs aren't unskilled labor, far from it. In fact I can't think of a single union industry that doesn't require training and technical know-how. Are you two referring to the need for higher education for these "new" jobs? Has that been borne out?
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I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
It’s really more the shifting of labor mentioned I was interested in. I went down the trail of the article and the study it referenced and it was pretty much as I expected. The type of jobs automation creates won’t be filled by the people it displaces.
Are you just talking about the natural evolution of labor? Model Ts were manufactured very differently than '55 Thunderbirds were even though both were made on assembly lines by Ford. The way we make and sell hamburgers has changed several times the last 70 years, same as how we stock grocery shelves. Chalking up the inevitable change to how products are manufactured and distributed to automation displacing jobs seems naive.
CNS summed up my thoughts a few posts up pretty well, a widening gap between jobs available to unskilled vs skilled workers.
I somehow missed CNS' post until you pointed it out. However, I'd counter with factory jobs and mining jobs aren't unskilled labor, far from it. In fact I can't think of a single union industry that doesn't require training and technical know-how. Are you two referring to the need for higher education for these "new" jobs? Has that been borne out?
I really was referencing the service industry as the origin of the convo was around Starbucks employees unionizing. I think many major fast food chains are rapidly moving towards having 1 maybe 2 employees in the entire store and letting automation and kiosks do the heavy lifting.
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I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
It’s really more the shifting of labor mentioned I was interested in. I went down the trail of the article and the study it referenced and it was pretty much as I expected. The type of jobs automation creates won’t be filled by the people it displaces.
Are you just talking about the natural evolution of labor? Model Ts were manufactured very differently than '55 Thunderbirds were even though both were made on assembly lines by Ford. The way we make and sell hamburgers has changed several times the last 70 years, same as how we stock grocery shelves. Chalking up the inevitable change to how products are manufactured and distributed to automation displacing jobs seems naive.
CNS summed up my thoughts a few posts up pretty well, a widening gap between jobs available to unskilled vs skilled workers.
I somehow missed CNS' post until you pointed it out. However, I'd counter with factory jobs and mining jobs aren't unskilled labor, far from it. In fact I can't think of a single union industry that doesn't require training and technical know-how. Are you two referring to the need for higher education for these "new" jobs? Has that been borne out?
I really was referencing the service industry as the origin of the convo was around Starbucks employees unionizing. I think many major fast food chains are rapidly moving towards having 1 maybe 2 employees in the entire store and letting automation and kiosks do the heavy lifting.
Agreed. There can only be so many people that used to work as a bank teller, then moved to a call center after RIFs, and now drive uber after their job was outsourced to computers. The learning curve and tribal knowledge is much less steep in the service industries than technology. I.e. it's easier to move "down" than "up", but what happens when all "entry" level jobs start disappearing. With regards to comparing 1950 to 2022 to future, technological change isn't linear.
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are all consumption increases made by choice?
Is 1950-2022 the best representation of the history of mankind?
Does the EU consume as much as the US?
If not, are their hours worked increasing relative to the US?
1) no, obviously not
2) no, but most labor statistics start then so that is where we look
3) no
4) no, we are maniacal about hours worked here and are an outlier in OECD with only countries with even crazier work cultures and/or way more poverty like Korea or Mexico
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I would be interested in seeing these studies because that doesn’t really make sense to me.
pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
It’s really more the shifting of labor mentioned I was interested in. I went down the trail of the article and the study it referenced and it was pretty much as I expected. The type of jobs automation creates won’t be filled by the people it displaces.
Are you just talking about the natural evolution of labor? Model Ts were manufactured very differently than '55 Thunderbirds were even though both were made on assembly lines by Ford. The way we make and sell hamburgers has changed several times the last 70 years, same as how we stock grocery shelves. Chalking up the inevitable change to how products are manufactured and distributed to automation displacing jobs seems naive.
CNS summed up my thoughts a few posts up pretty well, a widening gap between jobs available to unskilled vs skilled workers.
I somehow missed CNS' post until you pointed it out. However, I'd counter with factory jobs and mining jobs aren't unskilled labor, far from it. In fact I can't think of a single union industry that doesn't require training and technical know-how. Are you two referring to the need for higher education for these "new" jobs? Has that been borne out?
I really was referencing the service industry as the origin of the convo was around Starbucks employees unionizing. I think many major fast food chains are rapidly moving towards having 1 maybe 2 employees in the entire store and letting automation and kiosks do the heavy lifting.
Agreed. There can only be so many people that used to work as a bank teller, then moved to a call center after RIFs, and now drive uber after their job was outsourced to computers. The learning curve and tribal knowledge is much less steep in the service industries than technology. I.e. it's easier to move "down" than "up", but what happens when all "entry" level jobs start disappearing. With regards to comparing 1950 to 2022 to future, technological change isn't linear.
It can be true at the same time that capitalism will always seek out efficiencies and eliminate jobs and demand more productivity from every worker and also that most jobs won’t be eliminated. In fact it has been true since the Luddites destroyed the looms.
Marx made the same argument— he said the Luddites were wrong to put an artificial limit on productivity to protect jobs. Marx said let capitalists innovate and create the systems then seize the means of production. So don’t kill Amazon and have a bunch of Ray’s Apple Markets. Instead, let Amazon consolidate then seize it.
I may sound like I am talking out of both sides of my mouth here and Marx kind of was too. because his claim was that as capitalism continued to squeeze more and more out of every worker at some point that system would be untenable for the workers and they would overthrow it. Obviously Marx got plenty wrong as he did not anticipate peasant societies like Russia and China to use Communism to try and industrialize while the rest of industrialized Europe and the US tried to snuff out communism at home before it got too big (or compromised with democratic socialism) but I think his insight here might prove true.
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Hell yeah, seize Amazon, Disney, Facebook, and Google!
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8man must have apple stock
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Hell yeah, seize Amazon, Disney, Facebook, and Google!
That’s right
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Snowden already told us they seized Google and Facebook
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pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
Link?
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-in-the-uk-since-1270
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pretty much the entire history of mankind demonstrates that humans prefer to use productivity gains to consume more rather than to work less.
Link?
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-in-the-uk-since-1270
That is not even close to the entire history of mankind you silly goose
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Hell yeah, seize Amazon, Disney, Facebook, and Google!
That’s right
So we have peaked as a civilization and are done innovating?
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are all consumption increases made by choice?
Is 1950-2022 the best representation of the history of mankind?
Does the EU consume as much as the US?
If not, are their hours worked increasing relative to the US?
Maybe not 100%, but I would say consumption levels are made by choice.
The years 1950-2022 might not be the best representation for mankind, but we have decent data for that time period. Moreover, almost all productivity gains have occurred since 1800, so when looking at how productivity gains are allocated, the relatively recent past is the best time period to look at. How much do you think productivity increased in the US and Western Europe from 1800-1950? I'd bet productivity was at least 10x in 1950 compared to 1800. That means in France and Germany productivity is at least 70x in 2022 compared to 1800 (likely much more). How many hours do you think people are working a week in those countries on average? Let's say it's just 25 hours per week. In order for half of productivity gains to be allocated to leisure, that means people had to be working 875 hours per week in 1800. There are 168 hours in a week.
The EU may or may not consume as much as the US and their hours worked may or may not be increasing relative to the US. That is immaterial to how they have chosen to allocate productivity gains over the last 200-250 years. Anywhere that has seen substantial productivity gains, those places have largely allocated those gains to increasing consumption. The time before 1800 is really pretty unimportant as there were hardly any productivity gains before then.
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are all consumption increases made by choice?
Is 1950-2022 the best representation of the history of mankind?
Does the EU consume as much as the US?
If not, are their hours worked increasing relative to the US?
Maybe not 100%, but I would say consumption levels are made by choice.
The years 1950-2022 might not be the best representation for mankind, but we have decent data for that time period. Moreover, almost all productivity gains have occurred since 1800, so when looking at how productivity gains are allocated, the relatively recent past is the best time period to look at. How much do you think productivity increased in the US and Western Europe from 1800-1950? I'd bet productivity was at least 10x in 1950 compared to 1800. That means in France and Germany productivity is at least 70x in 2022 compared to 1800 (likely much more). How many hours do you think people are working a week in those countries on average? Let's say it's just 25 hours per week. In order for half of productivity gains to be allocated to leisure, that means people had to be working 875 hours per week in 1800. There are 168 hours in a week.
The EU may or may not consume as much as the US and their hours worked may or may not be increasing relative to the US. That is immaterial to how they have chosen to allocate productivity gains over the last 200-250 years. Anywhere that has seen substantial productivity gains, those places have largely allocated those gains to increasing consumption. The time before 1800 is really pretty unimportant as there were hardly any productivity gains before then.
The idea that there weren’t enormous productivity gains before 1800 is insane. I get that available data can skew things but going from hunter gatherers to pyramids seems pretty rough ridin' massive.
How about intercontinental trade?
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Bubonic plague set us back a bit there bubs
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are all consumption increases made by choice?
Is 1950-2022 the best representation of the history of mankind?
Does the EU consume as much as the US?
If not, are their hours worked increasing relative to the US?
Maybe not 100%, but I would say consumption levels are made by choice.
The years 1950-2022 might not be the best representation for mankind, but we have decent data for that time period. Moreover, almost all productivity gains have occurred since 1800, so when looking at how productivity gains are allocated, the relatively recent past is the best time period to look at. How much do you think productivity increased in the US and Western Europe from 1800-1950? I'd bet productivity was at least 10x in 1950 compared to 1800. That means in France and Germany productivity is at least 70x in 2022 compared to 1800 (likely much more). How many hours do you think people are working a week in those countries on average? Let's say it's just 25 hours per week. In order for half of productivity gains to be allocated to leisure, that means people had to be working 875 hours per week in 1800. There are 168 hours in a week.
The EU may or may not consume as much as the US and their hours worked may or may not be increasing relative to the US. That is immaterial to how they have chosen to allocate productivity gains over the last 200-250 years. Anywhere that has seen substantial productivity gains, those places have largely allocated those gains to increasing consumption. The time before 1800 is really pretty unimportant as there were hardly any productivity gains before then.
The idea that there weren’t enormous productivity gains before 1800 is insane. I get that available data can skew things but going from hunter gatherers to pyramids seems pretty rough ridin' massive.
How about intercontinental trade?
What percent of productivity gains do you think occurred before 1800 and what percent do you think occurred after 1800 even allowing for intercontinental trade?
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https://productivityhub.org/2022/06/06/about-200-years-ago-the-world-started-getting-rich-why/
You can crudely tell the story of our species in three stages. In the first, which lasted for the vast majority of our time on Earth, from the emergence of Homo sapiens over 300,000 years ago to about 12,000 years ago, humans lived largely nomadic lifestyles, subsisting through hunting and foraging for food. In the second, lasting from about 10,000 BC to around 1750 AD, humans adopted agriculture, allowing for a more secure supply of food and leading to the establishment of towns, cities, even empires.
The third period, in which we all live, is characterized by an unprecedented phenomenon: sustained economic growth. Quality of life went from improving very gradually if at all for the vast majority of human history to improving very, very quickly. In the United Kingdom, whose Industrial Revolution kicked off this transformation, GDP per capita grew about 40 percent between 1700 and 1800. It more than doubled between 1800 and 1900. And between 1900 and 2000, it grew more than fourfold.
What today we’d characterize as extreme poverty was until a few centuries ago the condition of almost every human on Earth. In 1820, some 94 percent of humans lived on less than $2 a day. Over the next two centuries, extreme poverty fell dramatically; in 2018, the World Bank estimated that 8.6 percent of people lived on less than $1.90 a day. And the gains were not solely economic. Before 1800, average lifespans didn’t exceed 40 years anywhere in the world. Today, the average human life expectancy is more like 73. Deaths in childhood have plunged, and adult heights have surged as malnutrition decreased.
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That is not even close to the entire history of mankind you silly goose
that's not a serious comment.
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are all consumption increases made by choice?
Is 1950-2022 the best representation of the history of mankind?
Does the EU consume as much as the US?
If not, are their hours worked increasing relative to the US?
Maybe not 100%, but I would say consumption levels are made by choice.
The years 1950-2022 might not be the best representation for mankind, but we have decent data for that time period. Moreover, almost all productivity gains have occurred since 1800, so when looking at how productivity gains are allocated, the relatively recent past is the best time period to look at. How much do you think productivity increased in the US and Western Europe from 1800-1950? I'd bet productivity was at least 10x in 1950 compared to 1800. That means in France and Germany productivity is at least 70x in 2022 compared to 1800 (likely much more). How many hours do you think people are working a week in those countries on average? Let's say it's just 25 hours per week. In order for half of productivity gains to be allocated to leisure, that means people had to be working 875 hours per week in 1800. There are 168 hours in a week.
The EU may or may not consume as much as the US and their hours worked may or may not be increasing relative to the US. That is immaterial to how they have chosen to allocate productivity gains over the last 200-250 years. Anywhere that has seen substantial productivity gains, those places have largely allocated those gains to increasing consumption. The time before 1800 is really pretty unimportant as there were hardly any productivity gains before then.
The idea that there weren’t enormous productivity gains before 1800 is insane. I get that available data can skew things but going from hunter gatherers to pyramids seems pretty rough ridin' massive.
How about intercontinental trade?
What percent of productivity gains do you think occurred before 1800 and what percent do you think occurred after 1800 even allowing for intercontinental trade?
I don’t know, i don’t have a huge dispute with the quote you posted, but that post does kind of mix some data points. Life expectancy is pretty different than productivity as is income.
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Life expectancy is pretty different than productivity as is income.
agree that life expectancy is entirely different, but income and productivity are integrally linked (as in, productivity and income are different products of the same data).
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I don't understand free marketers/individual liberty folk being mad at unions/wanting to unionize.
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I don't understand free marketers/individual liberty folk being mad at unions/wanting to unionize.
unions are typically coercive as they generally mandate that someone be a union member as condition of employment at a particular employer (which in some cases means an entire profession).
as i have cause to know, they also sometimes advocate for govt to change the terms of employment for non-union members even when there are no unions active in a given profession.
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I don't understand free marketers/individual liberty folk being mad at unions/wanting to unionize.
unions are typically coercive as they generally mandate that someone be a union member as condition of employment at a particular employer (which in some cases means an entire profession).
as i have cause to know, they also sometimes advocate for govt to change the terms of employment for non-union members even when there are no unions active in a given profession.
There's plenty of right to work. Sounds like the free market at work to me
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Sounds like the free market at work to me
well, it's not.
it can be good or it can be bad, whether done in the interests of businesses, unions or the public, but govt restrictions on private contracts are explicitly not an example of free markets.
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I wonder how much hours worked over the last ~70 years has to do with "full time" work being 40 hours and working fewer hours results in a huge cliff in pay, benefits, and stability compared to purely wanting to consume more
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I wonder how much hours worked over the last ~70 years has to do with "full time" work being 40 hours and working fewer hours results in a huge cliff in pay, benefits, and stability compared to purely wanting to consume more
I think the 40 hour work week probably does more to keep hours down, not up. Especially if you are considering the last 70 years. A whole lot of people would be expected to work more if their employers didn't legally have to pay 1.5x for overtime.
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I wonder how much hours worked over the last ~70 years has to do with "full time" work being 40 hours and working fewer hours results in a huge cliff in pay, benefits, and stability compared to purely wanting to consume more
there are a lot of things to quibble about in comparisons between now and few millennia ago, but when productivity has increased by (at minimum) 40-50x, the observation that consumption has followed this curve far more closely than time working has followed its inverse is blindly obvious and it's frankly pretty bizarre to argue otherwise.
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I wonder how much hours worked over the last ~70 years has to do with "full time" work being 40 hours and working fewer hours results in a huge cliff in pay, benefits, and stability compared to purely wanting to consume more
I think the 40 hour work week probably does more to keep hours down, not up. Especially if you are considering the last 70 years. A whole lot of people would be expected to work more if their employers didn't legally have to pay 1.5x for overtime.
Yeah it does both which is probably a major reason the number of hours worked in the US hasn't changed much since 1950
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This rules. Biden dog walking Howard.
https://twitter.com/moreperfectus/status/1562816860042579969?s=21&t=YesVUCW7VjT2xlHBfalxSg
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I wonder how much hours worked over the last ~70 years has to do with "full time" work being 40 hours and working fewer hours results in a huge cliff in pay, benefits, and stability compared to purely wanting to consume more
If that was the case, then all these people would be saving an incredible amount of money so they can retire sooner and work less.
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are all consumption increases made by choice?
Is 1950-2022 the best representation of the history of mankind?
Does the EU consume as much as the US?
If not, are their hours worked increasing relative to the US?
Maybe not 100%, but I would say consumption levels are made by choice.
The years 1950-2022 might not be the best representation for mankind, but we have decent data for that time period. Moreover, almost all productivity gains have occurred since 1800, so when looking at how productivity gains are allocated, the relatively recent past is the best time period to look at. How much do you think productivity increased in the US and Western Europe from 1800-1950? I'd bet productivity was at least 10x in 1950 compared to 1800. That means in France and Germany productivity is at least 70x in 2022 compared to 1800 (likely much more). How many hours do you think people are working a week in those countries on average? Let's say it's just 25 hours per week. In order for half of productivity gains to be allocated to leisure, that means people had to be working 875 hours per week in 1800. There are 168 hours in a week.
The EU may or may not consume as much as the US and their hours worked may or may not be increasing relative to the US. That is immaterial to how they have chosen to allocate productivity gains over the last 200-250 years. Anywhere that has seen substantial productivity gains, those places have largely allocated those gains to increasing consumption. The time before 1800 is really pretty unimportant as there were hardly any productivity gains before then.
The idea that there weren’t enormous productivity gains before 1800 is insane. I get that available data can skew things but going from hunter gatherers to pyramids seems pretty rough ridin' massive.
How about intercontinental trade?
What percent of productivity gains do you think occurred before 1800 and what percent do you think occurred after 1800 even allowing for intercontinental trade?
I don’t know, i don’t have a huge dispute with the quote you posted, but that post does kind of mix some data points. Life expectancy is pretty different than productivity as is income.
Why do you think we have a longer life expectancy? It's because we consume a lot more. We consume a lot more food and a lot more health care. I get that life expectancy, income, wealth and productivity are not the same. However, life expectancy is strongly linked to income and wealth. If people were using their increased productivity to have more leisure, income (GDP per capita) and wealth would not be increasing much. If that were the case, life expectancy would not rise nearly as much.
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https://twitter.com/JohnAnzo/status/1564558574033977344
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Not shocked that most people realize that their employer would enslave then given half a chance
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https://twitter.com/JohnAnzo/status/1564558574033977344
@sys does shor have a take on this
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@sys does shor have a take on this
looks like he's been discussing voting access and the ctc the last couple days, not unions.
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seems like that'd be bad.
https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1570126427760263168
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The conditions wherein rail workers are expected to be in a permanent state of “on call” is unacceptable. I hope they get some PTO and sick days.
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The conditions wherein rail workers are expected to be in a permanent state of “on call” is unacceptable. I hope they get some PTO and sick days.
In exchange for not being in a permanent state of being "on call," rail workers will accept lower wages, correct?
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The conditions wherein rail workers are expected to be in a permanent state of “on call” is unacceptable. I hope they get some PTO and sick days.
In exchange for not being in a permanent state of being "on call," rail workers will accept lower wages, correct?
Well they basically have the entire economy by the balls, so if it was me I wouldn’t.
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https://twitter.com/moreperfectus/status/1570086413923942407?s=46&t=kO8IHfAHrT7QQ4MFWVXgXg
By the way here is what is being talked about, this isn’t some kind of mystery. The railroads have consistently grinded down their labor costs and they are now putting their workers at the breaking point. The workers top priorities have been getting actual PTO/sick days that aren’t rejected at the threat of losing their livelihood, and having consistent schedules that allow them some semblance of a normal life with their families.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/15/business/economy/railroad-workers-strike.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
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Wow they were looking for UNPAID sick days
https://twitter.com/LaurenKGurley/status/1570364051758227458
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I haven’t seen anything that workers have accepted this, but that is what is being offered.
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Why would anyone work as a rail worker with such terrible conditions?
No unpaid sick days
Always on call
No PTO
No health insurance
No retirement plan
Minimum wage pay
Who would take a job like that?
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Why would anyone work as a rail worker with such terrible conditions?
No unpaid sick days
Always on call
No PTO
No health insurance
No retirement plan
Minimum wage pay
Who would take a job like that?
All the immigrants Texas is bussing to New York
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I know one guy who is a rail worker. Very odd duck, probably on the spectrum, can't imagine him working anywhere else and being successful really.
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Why would anyone work as a rail worker with such terrible conditions?
No unpaid sick days
Always on call
No PTO
No health insurance
No retirement plan
Minimum wage pay
Who would take a job like that?
This all makes me think, wtf has their union been doing exactly during its entire existence??
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One of step-family members is a rail engineer in Canada and is always on call but he still gets like 3 weeks of vacation to not be on call
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Why would anyone work as a rail worker with such terrible conditions?
No unpaid sick days
Always on call
No PTO
No health insurance
No retirement plan
Minimum wage pay
Who would take a job like that?
This all makes me think, wtf has their union been doing exactly during its entire existence??
Ever heard of the Pullman Strike?
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Why would anyone work as a rail worker with such terrible conditions?
No unpaid sick days
Always on call
No PTO
No health insurance
No retirement plan
Minimum wage pay
Who would take a job like that?
They obviously have very good pay and bene's. The thing is, they didn't have these conditions when hired. Approx 3 yrs ago, many of the big rail companies laid off 1/3 of there workforce and loaded up the remaining guys with their work. Since, due to crazy market, they have had insanely busy years. Since they have good bene's and pay, and since many of those guys have already been with the company, they are trying to remedy the issues. The rules around this, evidently take a long time to actually enact a rail strike. This process started almost 3 yrs ago. The notification of strike was given something like 3 months ago.
The idea that a good wage should keep ppl from expecting time off with out repercussions is rough ridin' stupid, if that is what you are getting at.
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Look at the Kroger brand anti-union flyer put out by management.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220917/84dbe94643c54add4f792d957af28afb.jpg)
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220917/84dbe94643c54add4f792d957af28afb.jpg)
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What does "Fully Recommended Tentative Agreement" mean?
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220917/84dbe94643c54add4f792d957af28afb.jpg)
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What does "Fully Recommended Tentative Agreement" mean?
I don’t honestly know in this context. But in bargaining a contract the bargaining team must get the bargaining unit to have 50% +1 of the bargaining unit vote to approve a “tentative agreement” before it becomes the contract. The bargaining unit must vote to strike too. The “fully recommended agreement” is probably the management contract that they unilaterally issued.
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Are Carl and Mary Ice involved in this?
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Are Carl and Mary Ice involved in this?
He sold to buffet.
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Why would anyone work as a rail worker with such terrible conditions?
No unpaid sick days
Always on call
No PTO
No health insurance
No retirement plan
Minimum wage pay
Who would take a job like that?
The idea that a good wage should keep ppl from expecting time off with out repercussions is rough ridin' stupid, if that is what you are getting at.
Thank you. I was reading his posts bugging out, thinking there is no way this dude thinks getting money is a substitute for even getting unpaid medical leave.
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Why would anyone work as a rail worker with such terrible conditions?
No unpaid sick days
Always on call
No PTO
No health insurance
No retirement plan
Minimum wage pay
Who would take a job like that?
The idea that a good wage should keep ppl from expecting time off with out repercussions is rough ridin' stupid, if that is what you are getting at.
Thank you. I was reading his posts bugging out, thinking there is no way this dude thinks getting money is a substitute for even getting unpaid medical leave.
I don't think they should face repercussions if they get sick, but they were out there complaining about how they couldn't schedule medical appointments. They have a minimum of 25 paid days off a year and some of them have 39 paid days off. Just schedule your medical appointments on one of those days. They got their unpaid sick days, so good for them.
You always face a trade off when it comes to wages and benefits. If you want more benefits, you're going to get less wages.
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Why would anyone work as a rail worker with such terrible conditions?
No unpaid sick days
Always on call
No PTO
No health insurance
No retirement plan
Minimum wage pay
Who would take a job like that?
The idea that a good wage should keep ppl from expecting time off with out repercussions is rough ridin' stupid, if that is what you are getting at.
Thank you. I was reading his posts bugging out, thinking there is no way this dude thinks getting money is a substitute for even getting unpaid medical leave.
I don't think they should face repercussions if they get sick, but they were out there complaining about how they couldn't schedule medical appointments. They have a minimum of 25 paid days off a year and some of them have 39 paid days off. Just schedule your medical appointments on one of those days. They got their unpaid sick days, so good for them.
You always face a trade off when it comes to wages and benefits. If you want more benefits, you're going to get less wages.
That's 39 days off of a 7 day work week, correct? That's abhorrent. I don't understand how some people don't get that an overworked labor force is the worst way to ensure maximum productivity.
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Why would anyone work as a rail worker with such terrible conditions?
No unpaid sick days
Always on call
No PTO
No health insurance
No retirement plan
Minimum wage pay
Who would take a job like that?
The idea that a good wage should keep ppl from expecting time off with out repercussions is rough ridin' stupid, if that is what you are getting at.
Thank you. I was reading his posts bugging out, thinking there is no way this dude thinks getting money is a substitute for even getting unpaid medical leave.
I don't think they should face repercussions if they get sick, but they were out there complaining about how they couldn't schedule medical appointments. They have a minimum of 25 paid days off a year and some of them have 39 paid days off. Just schedule your medical appointments on one of those days. They got their unpaid sick days, so good for them.
You always face a trade off when it comes to wages and benefits. If you want more benefits, you're going to get less wages.
That's 39 days off of a 7 day work week, correct? That's abhorrent. I don't understand how some people don't get that an overworked labor force is the worst way to ensure maximum productivity.
If it's based on a 7 day work week, it would be 49 paid days off. There are a lot more days off through the year that are not paid, obviously.
And by some people, do you mean Warren Buffett? If there's one person that knows nothing about running a business, it is him.
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Why would anyone work as a rail worker with such terrible conditions?
No unpaid sick days
Always on call
No PTO
No health insurance
No retirement plan
Minimum wage pay
Who would take a job like that?
The idea that a good wage should keep ppl from expecting time off with out repercussions is rough ridin' stupid, if that is what you are getting at.
Thank you. I was reading his posts bugging out, thinking there is no way this dude thinks getting money is a substitute for even getting unpaid medical leave.
I don't think they should face repercussions if they get sick, but they were out there complaining about how they couldn't schedule medical appointments. They have a minimum of 25 paid days off a year and some of them have 39 paid days off. Just schedule your medical appointments on one of those days. They got their unpaid sick days, so good for them.
You always face a trade off when it comes to wages and benefits. If you want more benefits, you're going to get less wages.
That's 39 days off of a 7 day work week, correct? That's abhorrent. I don't understand how some people don't get that an overworked labor force is the worst way to ensure maximum productivity.
If it's based on a 7 day work week, it would be 49 paid days off. There are a lot more days off through the year that are not paid, obviously.
And by some people, do you mean Warren Buffett? If there's one person that knows nothing about running a business, it is him.
Tthe articles are pretty clear that the current situation is due to a decrease in the work force, and the current situation wasn't always the standard.
I'm certain that Warren Buffett knows that more work, in a vacuum, doesn't increase productivity, it's a pretty basic concept that everyone gets other than inexperienced lower level management.
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Most people that know me know that I am a union man and that I love organized labor. One thing I get asked a fair amount is—“but what about this union, isn’t this bad?” Or “look at this guy, isn’t it mumped up that the union defended him?”
In reverse order, no I pretty much look at unions like lawyers everyone deserves due process, even murderers or whatever but the union can also make choices about what they say or if they say anything.
The answer to the first is related to my last point which is police unions are almost all bad from what I can tell by their spokespeople and they basically have zero solidarity with other unions so they can eff off.
UPS wont cross picket lines to deliver packages, but cops will arrest people to back up capital for fun just because they are cops.
So it is with not a single qualm that I come here to denounce the latest unionization drive that I have come across, RA’s.
https://twitter.com/laurenkgurley/status/1576985969634725888?s=46&t=DZpz_eoUqKjU-0uglHAEwQ
That’s right, the student cops from your dorm floor are unionizing. I am absolutely against it. Any right minded student should view RA’s with the disgust they deserve as cops and class traitors and rats.
No solidarity for RAs!
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I’d further add that Barnard grads representing themselves as Columbia grads is also quite sus.
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I already shared this with kat kid but it also belongs here
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221003/fed6faba834d1bcf6014e647a07e4558.jpg)
One time I was having lunch in a downtown park and sat close to an elevator union meetup and it seemed great and awkward
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I think I've mentioned it on this blog before but elevator dudes is like the top field construction trade. It's extremely difficult to get in to, I think I read somewhere they haven't even opened the books for new apprentices in like 7 years.
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I think I've mentioned it on this blog before but elevator dudes is like the top field construction trade. It's extremely difficult to get in to, I think I read somewhere they haven't even opened the books for new apprentices in like 7 years.
Once you get to the top, you don't want to leave.
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I think I've mentioned it on this blog before but elevator dudes is like the top field construction trade. It's extremely difficult to get in to, I think I read somewhere they haven't even opened the books for new apprentices in like 7 years.
Been a long time since I managed a job with an elevator, but their benefits are bonkers. They are probably the highest paid person on any jobsite they are on at any given time. They hit double time very early and hit triple time very fast too.
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great lesson in how unions can facilitate rent-seeking. good job, everybody.
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https://twitter.com/thehousered/status/1576975188071043079?s=46&t=lMCXE4hTpA3F-ba9lOfo2Q
If this goes I’m not sure if organized labor really has the strength to carry on. It appears Supreme Court is really going to try to burn it all down.
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Most people that know me know that I am a union man and that I love organized labor. One thing I get asked a fair amount is—“but what about this union, isn’t this bad?” Or “look at this guy, isn’t it mumped up that the union defended him?”
In reverse order, no I pretty much look at unions like lawyers everyone deserves due process, even murderers or whatever but the union can also make choices about what they say or if they say anything.
The answer to the first is related to my last point which is police unions are almost all bad from what I can tell by their spokespeople and they basically have zero solidarity with other unions so they can eff off.
UPS wont cross picket lines to deliver packages, but cops will arrest people to back up capital for fun just because they are cops.
So it is with not a single qualm that I come here to denounce the latest unionization drive that I have come across, RA’s.
https://twitter.com/laurenkgurley/status/1576985969634725888?s=46&t=DZpz_eoUqKjU-0uglHAEwQ
That’s right, the student cops from your dorm floor are unionizing. I am absolutely against it. Any right minded student should view RA’s with the disgust they deserve as cops and class traitors and rats.
No solidarity for RAs!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
When trying to unionize, doesn't it help to have a discernable skill? RAs might be the most replaceable people on the planet. I'd also be interested to know what what perceived gap in workers rights there are with RAs at Barnard College.
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Most people that know me know that I am a union man and that I love organized labor. One thing I get asked a fair amount is—“but what about this union, isn’t this bad?” Or “look at this guy, isn’t it mumped up that the union defended him?”
In reverse order, no I pretty much look at unions like lawyers everyone deserves due process, even murderers or whatever but the union can also make choices about what they say or if they say anything.
The answer to the first is related to my last point which is police unions are almost all bad from what I can tell by their spokespeople and they basically have zero solidarity with other unions so they can eff off.
UPS wont cross picket lines to deliver packages, but cops will arrest people to back up capital for fun just because they are cops.
So it is with not a single qualm that I come here to denounce the latest unionization drive that I have come across, RA’s.
https://twitter.com/laurenkgurley/status/1576985969634725888?s=46&t=DZpz_eoUqKjU-0uglHAEwQ
That’s right, the student cops from your dorm floor are unionizing. I am absolutely against it. Any right minded student should view RA’s with the disgust they deserve as cops and class traitors and rats.
No solidarity for RAs!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
When trying to unionize, doesn't it help to have a discernable skill? RAs might be the most replaceable people on the planet. I'd also be interested to know what what perceived gap in workers rights there are with RAs at Barnard College.
A discernable skill like workers at Amazon warehouses?
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Most people that know me know that I am a union man and that I love organized labor. One thing I get asked a fair amount is—“but what about this union, isn’t this bad?” Or “look at this guy, isn’t it mumped up that the union defended him?”
In reverse order, no I pretty much look at unions like lawyers everyone deserves due process, even murderers or whatever but the union can also make choices about what they say or if they say anything.
The answer to the first is related to my last point which is police unions are almost all bad from what I can tell by their spokespeople and they basically have zero solidarity with other unions so they can eff off.
UPS wont cross picket lines to deliver packages, but cops will arrest people to back up capital for fun just because they are cops.
So it is with not a single qualm that I come here to denounce the latest unionization drive that I have come across, RA’s.
https://twitter.com/laurenkgurley/status/1576985969634725888?s=46&t=DZpz_eoUqKjU-0uglHAEwQ
That’s right, the student cops from your dorm floor are unionizing. I am absolutely against it. Any right minded student should view RA’s with the disgust they deserve as cops and class traitors and rats.
No solidarity for RAs!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
When trying to unionize, doesn't it help to have a discernable skill? RAs might be the most replaceable people on the planet. I'd also be interested to know what what perceived gap in workers rights there are with RAs at Barnard College.
A discernable skill like workers at Amazon warehouses?
I was waiting for this. There are a lot more people more capable of being an RA than there are people who can work in an Amazon warehouse. Shocking that you don't know that some warehouse jobs require certifications. I also notice you skipped right over that gap in workers rights piece. RAs don't have to wear diapers to ensure they are meeting mandated efficiency quotas.
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I’d like to see a dumbass RA from Barnard operate a forklift or a reach truck. I wish a [redacted] would.
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Most people that know me know that I am a union man and that I love organized labor. One thing I get asked a fair amount is—“but what about this union, isn’t this bad?” Or “look at this guy, isn’t it mumped up that the union defended him?”
In reverse order, no I pretty much look at unions like lawyers everyone deserves due process, even murderers or whatever but the union can also make choices about what they say or if they say anything.
The answer to the first is related to my last point which is police unions are almost all bad from what I can tell by their spokespeople and they basically have zero solidarity with other unions so they can eff off.
UPS wont cross picket lines to deliver packages, but cops will arrest people to back up capital for fun just because they are cops.
So it is with not a single qualm that I come here to denounce the latest unionization drive that I have come across, RA’s.
https://twitter.com/laurenkgurley/status/1576985969634725888?s=46&t=DZpz_eoUqKjU-0uglHAEwQ
That’s right, the student cops from your dorm floor are unionizing. I am absolutely against it. Any right minded student should view RA’s with the disgust they deserve as cops and class traitors and rats.
No solidarity for RAs!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
When trying to unionize, doesn't it help to have a discernable skill? RAs might be the most replaceable people on the planet. I'd also be interested to know what what perceived gap in workers rights there are with RAs at Barnard College.
A discernable skill like workers at Amazon warehouses?
I was waiting for this. There are a lot more people more capable of being an RA than there are people who can work in an Amazon warehouse. Shocking that you don't know that some warehouse jobs require certifications. I also notice you skipped right over that gap in workers rights piece. RAs don't have to wear diapers to ensure they are meeting mandated efficiency quotas.
I think if you don't have a "redeemable skill" it helps to do particularly taxing/stressful/dangerous work.
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Most people that know me know that I am a union man and that I love organized labor. One thing I get asked a fair amount is—“but what about this union, isn’t this bad?” Or “look at this guy, isn’t it mumped up that the union defended him?”
In reverse order, no I pretty much look at unions like lawyers everyone deserves due process, even murderers or whatever but the union can also make choices about what they say or if they say anything.
The answer to the first is related to my last point which is police unions are almost all bad from what I can tell by their spokespeople and they basically have zero solidarity with other unions so they can eff off.
UPS wont cross picket lines to deliver packages, but cops will arrest people to back up capital for fun just because they are cops.
So it is with not a single qualm that I come here to denounce the latest unionization drive that I have come across, RA’s.
https://twitter.com/laurenkgurley/status/1576985969634725888?s=46&t=DZpz_eoUqKjU-0uglHAEwQ
That’s right, the student cops from your dorm floor are unionizing. I am absolutely against it. Any right minded student should view RA’s with the disgust they deserve as cops and class traitors and rats.
No solidarity for RAs!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
When trying to unionize, doesn't it help to have a discernable skill? RAs might be the most replaceable people on the planet. I'd also be interested to know what what perceived gap in workers rights there are with RAs at Barnard College.
A discernable skill like workers at Amazon warehouses?
The ability to reliably perform hard, manual work is a skill.
But yeah also go watch those YouTube’s of forklift drivers lighting lighters.
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i don't understand the claimed connection between work requiring a scarce skill and that work being suitable to be performed by union labor.
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Forklifts really aren't that hard to operate, I assume some ra dorm nerd has played video games and driven a car before. The skills translate.
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You son of a bitch
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lopakman tried, failed.
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i don't understand the claimed connection between work requiring a scarce skill and that work being suitable to be performed by union labor.
:dunno: no idea, you tell me. Is it a coincidence that industries with organized labor tend to be those with either a defined skill set and or professions that generally have more jobs than an available workforce?
I legit don't know enough about the history of labor to be able to provide an answer, it was an observation, not a statement of fact.
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i don't understand the claimed connection between work requiring a scarce skill and that work being suitable to be performed by union labor.
:dunno: no idea, you tell me. Is it a coincidence that industries with organized labor tend to be those with either a defined skill set and or professions that generally have more jobs than an available workforce?
I legit don't know enough about the history of labor to be able to provide an answer, it was an observation, not a statement of fact.
Unions and guilds used to be the ones passing that knowledge down. People joined them to learn those skills. Still to this day, many if not most, labor unions have defined and required training it's members have to complete to become full members.
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i don't understand the claimed connection between work requiring a scarce skill and that work being suitable to be performed by union labor.
:dunno: no idea, you tell me. Is it a coincidence that industries with organized labor tend to be those with either a defined skill set and or professions that generally have more jobs than an available workforce?
I legit don't know enough about the history of labor to be able to provide an answer, it was an observation, not a statement of fact.
Unions and guilds used to be the ones passing that knowledge down. People joined them to learn those skills. Still to this day, many if not most, labor unions have defined and required training it's members have to complete to become full members.
I would agree that many unions today function very much as guilds. The story above about no new apprenticeships for elevator workers is pretty ridiculous, in my opinion. That union is functioning to keep people out of a trade as much as it is working to negotiate with employers.
Workers like Amazon warehouse workers, who I would still argue are pretty low-skilled, are the ones that would benefit from union representation more. They have a more inelastic supply of labor and are more easily exploited and mistreated by employers.
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Yeah I’m sure unions have a pretty non-linear history but I always think of the industrial revolution when it was a way to prevent exploitation of cheap labor, which was “unskilled” in the sense that they typically didn’t have other job opportunities.
In that sense, Amazon workers unionizing seems like a much clearer parallel than some of the other unions currently in existence.
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Most people that know me know that I am a union man and that I love organized labor. One thing I get asked a fair amount is—“but what about this union, isn’t this bad?” Or “look at this guy, isn’t it mumped up that the union defended him?”
In reverse order, no I pretty much look at unions like lawyers everyone deserves due process, even murderers or whatever but the union can also make choices about what they say or if they say anything.
The answer to the first is related to my last point which is police unions are almost all bad from what I can tell by their spokespeople and they basically have zero solidarity with other unions so they can eff off.
UPS wont cross picket lines to deliver packages, but cops will arrest people to back up capital for fun just because they are cops.
So it is with not a single qualm that I come here to denounce the latest unionization drive that I have come across, RA’s.
https://twitter.com/laurenkgurley/status/1576985969634725888?s=46&t=DZpz_eoUqKjU-0uglHAEwQ
That’s right, the student cops from your dorm floor are unionizing. I am absolutely against it. Any right minded student should view RA’s with the disgust they deserve as cops and class traitors and rats.
No solidarity for RAs!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
my wife brought up a point, do these motherfuckers even draw a salary?
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https://twitter.com/byheatherlong/status/1578367926687891456?s=46&t=WcdYtz6g7lwGOE6XINMngQ
Anyone going to make a case blaming teachers unions for this?
One thing I will say is I think all of this gets much worse before it gets better as the right is looking at COVID, gays and ESSSR funds and smelling blood. Like the orc guy in LOTR- Education is back on the menu boys!
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Teachers numbers just got right sized, no need to fill the 300k open positions
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Assuming this is the forklift thread
https://twitter.com/LauraKellyKS/status/1580966800644542465
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Assuming this is the forklift thread
https://twitter.com/LauraKellyKS/status/1580966800644542465
not in Kansas lol
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Assuming this is the forklift thread
https://twitter.com/LauraKellyKS/status/1580966800644542465
not in Kansas lol
it is in Kansas but that is not a forklift
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Assuming this is the forklift thread
https://twitter.com/LauraKellyKS/status/1580966800644542465
not in Kansas lol
it is in Kansas but that is not a forklift
Embarrassingly low skid steer iq (lssiq) from skipper here lmao
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Assuming this is the forklift thread
https://twitter.com/LauraKellyKS/status/1580966800644542465
not in Kansas lol
it is in Kansas but that is not a forklift
Embarrassingly low skid steer iq (lssiq) from skipper here lmao
ssl =/= flt
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Assuming this is the forklift thread
https://twitter.com/LauraKellyKS/status/1580966800644542465
not in Kansas lol
it is in Kansas but that is not a forklift
I wasn't clear, I was trying to say it wouldn't belong in the union thread because she was in Kansas
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Dipshit dems, the supposed party of labor, made these people end their strike without giving them a single day of sick pay. Not only did they force these people to take a deal that they didn't want, but they also allowed six prominent republicans to vote yes on the provision while one of their supposed their own, voted no.
Total crap show and they let Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz, Little Marco, and Fancy Lindsay mush their faces.
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https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1598383401647898625
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Dipshit dems, the supposed party of labor, made these people end their strike without giving them a single day of sick pay. Not only did they force these people to take a deal that they didn't want, but they also allowed six prominent republicans to vote yes on the provision while one of their supposed their own, voted no.
Total crap show and they let Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz, Little Marco, and Fancy Lindsay mush their faces.
Did they not know the job has no sick days when they accepted it? Did someone lie to them? Are they not free to leave their jobs and find another one in a tight labor market? What exactly is your issue…
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As someone who worked with RR unions for a couple of years a while back and has a buddy in BIG RR here is my both sides take
ANTI UNION - These RR union workers are making 100k+ (this was like 6 years ago) without a college degree with a sweet sweet RR pension that is better than social security. They know what they signed up for and they did it because it was by far the best option after they got out of the military or their dad/uncle/cousin got them job.
PRO UNION - RR's are basically a Duopoly (BNSF/UP west of the Mississippi, NS/CSX east) and are printing money left and right because they have no competition besides OTR trucking. RR's are trying to reduce the minimum crew count on trains from 2 to 1 via (ATC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_control) to make even more money for their Duopoly while cutting out the people who actually run the trains.
After deregulation in the 80's BIG RR consolidated and was content to rake in their guaranteed profits due to their duopoly and share some of that with labor. Over the last couple of years BIG RR has been turning the screws HARD on both unions and their management to make more money even though they are making record profits. My buddy was a non union Regional Manager for BIG RR and even he left because it was getting so ridiculous....he went to a RR contractor for a year but recently went back to BIG RR because the money was too good.
What is the answer here? Dunno, its not like you can decide to create a new RR to compete with the big guys that got trackage rights in 1880. RR's are the most efficient way to transport goods between major transit hubs besides boats.
The only thing that will knock off RR's dominant Duopoly position is OTR trucks without a driver which has been 5 years away for about 10 years now.
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the rr people i sometimes work with make a lot of money for pretty much not doing anything.
no idea how representative that is of rr workers overall or across all the diff unions.
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the rr people i sometimes work with make a lot of money for pretty much not doing anything.
no idea how representative that is of rr workers overall or across all the diff unions.
Yeah, there are some good gigs out there if you don't need mental stimulation and are fine just moving around all the time.
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It seems like one side of this argument is "People should be treated like people" and the other side disagrees.
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Well played cns
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As a man, I can tell u that I don’t need sick days
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It seems like one side of this argument is "People should be treated like people" and the other side disagrees.
i'm actually pretty unclear on what sort of compensated time off they are allowed or not allowed and also what sort of uncompensated time off they can or cannot take.
https://twitter.com/RyanRadia/status/1598696578046369792
but i'm also pretty comfortable with the idea of people trading benefits for higher pay. i've more or less done that myself.
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the rr people i sometimes work with make a lot of money for pretty much not doing anything.
no idea how representative that is of rr workers overall or across all the diff unions.
Yeah, there are some good gigs out there if you don't need mental stimulation and are fine just moving around all the time.
these people don't have to/aren't allowed to move around much, but yeah, there are a surprising amount of jobs where you really just have to show up.
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Anyone that’s unhappy could leave the profession and I’m guessing be very easily replaced by a long line of applicants
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It seems like one side of this argument is "People should be treated like people" and the other side disagrees.
i'm actually pretty unclear on what sort of compensated time off they are allowed or not allowed and also what sort of uncompensated time off they can or cannot take.
https://twitter.com/RyanRadia/status/1598696578046369792
but i'm also pretty comfortable with the idea of people trading benefits for higher pay. i've more or less done that myself.
They have time off but it’s got to be scheduled in advance. Can’t call in sick
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Right… which is why their pay is as high as it is. It’s called reality you guys.
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They have time off but it’s got to be scheduled in advance. Can’t call in sick
the "mark off" policy seems pretty close to a sick leave, although it isn't clear from the bullet point if the marking off can only be done some set time in advance.
presumably not day of, but if it can be done the night before, that's basically the same, imo.
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Some railroad dudes on ags were saying that it's basically impossible to get pto approved because corporate has cut staff so thin. If it is approved you're only given 12 hours notice.
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Heard a podcast describing PTO as having to be submitted 30days ahead.
Also, the RR goal is to get mandatory personnel down to 1 guy per train. You miss, the entire train doesn’t train that day without shuffling around. To shuffle around, a company that is very focused on cutting staff would have to hold on call guys getting paid to do nothing unless someone misses their shift.
All this is stupid considering railroads paid out to their shareholders something like $146billion dollars in dividends last year. The idea that people should have an opportunity to be sick when sick isnt insane. It’s also unsafe. If trains are run by one person, how much flu meds or painkillers can that person be medicated with before we all should be concerned for the safety of their coworkers, etc?
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Late stage capitalism
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:emawkid:
https://twitter.com/MarcGoldwein/status/1651929256203526145
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The unorganized solidarity of Gen Z
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The idea that union members started voting more for Trump over Democratic nominees never made much sense to me.
https://twitter.com/billscher/status/1704330760285479270
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The idea that union members started voting more for Trump over Democratic nominees never made much sense to me.
https://twitter.com/billscher/status/1704330760285479270
But I saw a union member trashing Biden and supporting Trump on Fox News?
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The idea that union members started voting more for Trump over Democratic nominees never made much sense to me.
https://twitter.com/billscher/status/1704330760285479270
Well considering union membership is half of what it was in 1988, it matters more that democrats have basically given up on trying to win over working class voters. They should have moved heaven and earth when Biden had a mandate to have better designed and funded the CTC and free school lunch and made those programs the center piece of the campaign. Instead they mumped around with the “problem solvers caucus” and let them hold kids hostage over salt.
The dems are very happy to pick up egg head republicans like sys in the suburbs and just count on the increasing share of white (and with Trump non-white) non-college grad voters.
Biden should have his moment of old labor dem glory and go to a Ford factory gate in KC, mo and get in there and give a speech on the floor disrupting work and then announce they are going on strike and take a crap on managements desk in front of cameras. crowd goes wild.
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Do it Biden, you pussy
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Biden has the sleeves rolled up and the jacket off and does a stone cold stunner entrance smashing two BUD LIGHTS together and then strolls up to some SUIT WEARING BOSS and gives him a stunner. Catches another bud light then takes the stage and tells a long winded story makes 2 questionable jokes turns around a couple times, stutters then lands it with “we’re going on strike!”
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The idea that union members started voting more for Trump over Democratic nominees never made much sense to me.
https://twitter.com/billscher/status/1704330760285479270
Well considering union membership is half of what it was in 1988, it matters more that democrats have basically given up on trying to win over working class voters. They should have moved heaven and earth when Biden had a mandate to have better designed and funded the CTC and free school lunch and made those programs the center piece of the campaign. Instead they mumped around with the “problem solvers caucus” and let them hold kids hostage over salt.
The dems are very happy to pick up egg head republicans like sys in the suburbs and just count on the increasing share of white (and with Trump non-white) non-college grad voters.
Biden should have his moment of old labor dem glory and go to a Ford factory gate in KC, mo and get in there and give a speech on the floor disrupting work and then announce they are going on strike and take a crap on managements desk in front of cameras. crowd goes wild.
:clap:
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Hey kk, let’s hear you defend unions now. You are sick.
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Keep thinking we have a hot thread about Onions
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Keep thinking we have a hot thread about Onions
I think that every time I see this thread pop up.
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Hey kk, let’s hear you defend unions now. You are sick.
I just did, wym?
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you really are sick
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Completely disregarding that UAW members aren't federal employees, apparently something this dumb [redacted] doesn't understand, he really needs a dirt nap. He's so rough ridin' stupid
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1704133189483000158
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I will never understand how ppl can listen to politicians like that, while not being the head of a large corporation, and think that this is what they want.
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Completely disregarding that UAW members aren't federal employees, apparently something this dumb [redacted] doesn't understand, he really needs a dirt nap. He's so rough ridin' stupid
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1704133189483000158
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/22/uaw-strike-tim-scott-faces-labor-complaint-over-firing-comments.html
NLRB violation incoming
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Ford Fiesta Base- MSRP $72,457 with dealer additions - $81,658
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Ford Fiesta Base- MSRP $72,457 with dealer additions - $81,658
they still make fiestas?
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Apparently
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I'm not really up to speed on auto manufacturing, are these cars not mostly assembled by robotics?
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Ford does not make the Fiesta for the US market and a base Fiesta is nowhere near $72,000 in USD.
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Ford does not make the Fiesta for the US market and a base Fiesta is nowhere near $72,000 in USD.
dang and that's good to hear.
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I think dax was doing one of those things like the guy that tweeted about the 78$ burger at the airport the other day
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I'll add additional notes on the next post
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https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1705219526529257555
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Completely disregarding that UAW members aren't federal employees, apparently something this dumb [redacted] doesn't understand, he really needs a dirt nap. He's so rough ridin' stupid
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1704133189483000158
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/22/uaw-strike-tim-scott-faces-labor-complaint-over-firing-comments.html
NLRB violation incoming
I don’t think a guy who has nothing to do with firing them can commit a violation lmao
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Completely disregarding that UAW members aren't federal employees, apparently something this dumb [redacted] doesn't understand, he really needs a dirt nap. He's so rough ridin' stupid
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1704133189483000158
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/22/uaw-strike-tim-scott-faces-labor-complaint-over-firing-comments.html
NLRB violation incoming
I don’t think a guy who has nothing to do with firing them can commit a violation lmao
He is an employer, so this is a threat against his employees. You don't have to be an employee to file a complaint.
The NLRB ruled against Ben Domenech who tweeted that if employees of The Federalist were to unionize he would "send them to the salt mines." The 3rd circuit court apparently overturned that, but this seems like more straight forward on the contextual case because Tim Scott isn't joking.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/federalist-publishers-salt-mine-tweet-did-not-violate-labor-law-3rd-circ-2022-05-20/
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if a lawmaker can't discuss what changes to the law he would like to see enacted, or if a candidate for president can't discuss what executive actions he would take if elected, that seems like a pretty insane abuse of power (and that power should correspondingly be reduced or removed).
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https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1705314501413814775
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Let’s rough ridin' go!
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Joe reads gE
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Either that or the FBI since dax is certainly on one of their lists
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if a lawmaker can't discuss what changes to the law he would like to see enacted, or if a candidate for president can't discuss what executive actions he would take if elected, that seems like a pretty insane abuse of power (and that power should correspondingly be reduced or removed).
Of course they can discuss changes to the law as long as they don’t threaten to fire workers for trying to unionize. You can advocate a change to the law without threatening to violate it.
And if you want to violate it to try and challenge it through the courts or as a means of civil disobedience, then this is step one.
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maybe i'm missing some context or should listen to what scott actually said, but he said something about how he thought striking workers should be fired, as reagan famously did with traffic controllers, right?
so that's not a threat to fire the striking autoworkers, because scott isn't an automaker. he doesn't currently have the ability to fire anyone, he's just laying out his views, which strikes me as an appropriate thing for a person running for the presidency to do. maybe he should be asked to clarify whether he means firing federal workers if some went on strike or if he's offering advice to the automakers or whatever but i don't see any way it can be credibly viewed as a threat to the autoworkers currently on strike.
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maybe i'm missing some context or should listen to what scott actually said, but he said something about how he thought striking workers should be fired, as reagan famously did with traffic controllers, right?
so that's not a threat to fire the striking autoworkers, because scott isn't an automaker. he doesn't currently have the ability to fire anyone, he's just laying out his views, which strikes me as an appropriate thing for a person running for the presidency to do. maybe he should be asked to clarify whether he means firing federal workers if some went on strike or if he's offering advice to the automakers or whatever but i don't see any way it can be credibly viewed as a threat to the autoworkers currently on strike.
Tim Scott is an employer.
Here is the relevant info:
“The complaint was filed against Scott in his capacity as a representative for Tim Scott for America. In addition to being a senator representing the state of South Carolina, Scott is running for president, making him an employer as well. The premise of the complaint is that Scott’s comments could be construed as a direct threat against his campaign staffers, whose right to strike is enshrined in federal law.
Scott’s comments appear to violate those laws, said Benjamin Sachs, a professor of labor law at Harvard University. “A statement as direct as ‘if you strike, you’re fired’ is textbook unfair labor practice language because workers can’t be fired for striking,” Sachs told The Intercept. “If a reasonable employee could interpret the statement as ‘if I strike, I’m fired,’ then it is without a doubt an unfair labor practice violation.”
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that's clearly a law that should be changed.
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that's clearly a law that should be changed.
Maybe you should run for office and put your money where your mouth is?
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that's clearly a law that should be changed.
Careful, uncle Joe will lock your ass up.
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Being a peon who supports management over fellow peons will never make sense to me ever in my life
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Being a peon who supports management over fellow peons will never make sense to me ever in my life
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Unless it's a ploy to get in tight with upper management, they are very stupid people with no idea of what they're saying.
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Being a peon who supports management over fellow peons will never make sense to me ever in my life
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American’s empathy towards money causes the lack of empathy towards many other things.
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I saw video of a guy doing an in car rant. He was basically like, "I don't blame the owners; they're taking all the risk. I blame the MIDDLE MEN!" Rich people in this country have a hell of a con going.
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I think most americans are just thinking they'd like to have a new car someday and not pay 6 figures for a explorer
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Being a peon who supports management over fellow peons will never make sense to me ever in my life
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American’s empathy towards money causes the lack of empathy towards many other things.
perfectly said
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Being a peon who supports management over fellow peons will never make sense to me ever in my life
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
American’s empathy towards money causes the lack of empathy towards many other things.
Powerful statements indeed. I don’t think either one of you have the slightest idea of what is going on with the uaw situ though.
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They’re clueless
Move on and don’t bother.
Did GM ever restructure that crushing pension plan that even had Federal executive pool retirees awash with jealousy?
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230927/1ca9115063433a99fb096cc2609a6489.jpg)
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230927/1ca9115063433a99fb096cc2609a6489.jpg)
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:)
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Ol Pedo Pete: Given the union guy the ol what for - now tryin to be their BFF and launder money through the UkroGrifters
#onbrand