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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball => Topic started by: stunted on February 09, 2019, 07:07:04 PM

Title: underappreciated.
Post by: stunted on February 09, 2019, 07:07:04 PM
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Pwo3oHxPkJA2ARNLDLg4Drpy61o=/0x0:3206x4809/1200x800/filters:focal(1257x832:1769x1344)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/54448399/usa_today_9943224.0.jpg)
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: Chingon on February 09, 2019, 07:16:34 PM
Very much so.  The KSOdors (tee hee) hate the dude for shooting so much.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: michigancat on February 09, 2019, 07:24:21 PM
Very much so.  The KSOdors (tee hee) hate the dude for shooting so much.

there's a whole lotta dumb over there
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: stunted on February 09, 2019, 07:24:57 PM
lol, he's like our 2nd best shooter.

he has his faults, and he's been the same player for 4 years. but he hustles hard and has been big in times other guys were struggling. will be nice to see him be the man in the postgame water celebration thing.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: brandochav on February 09, 2019, 07:25:29 PM
I don't have the stats but seems to be much better at his shot select over this run, and with his D has no doubt been a major influence in the turn around. He's always good for a few key assists, too.

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Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: michigancat on February 09, 2019, 07:26:49 PM
I don't have the stats but seems to be much better at his shot select over this run, and with his D has no doubt been a major influence in the turn around. He's always good for a few key assists, too.

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yeah you don't have the stats

the only problem with the shot selection on this team is when they hesitate when they're wide the eff open
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: brandochav on February 09, 2019, 07:31:17 PM
I don't have the stats but seems to be much better at his shot select over this run, and with his D has no doubt been a major influence in the turn around. He's always good for a few key assists, too.

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yeah you don't have the stats

the only problem with the shot selection on this team is when they hesitate when they're wide the eff open
Come on, you cant say that and not provide them. Hypocritical.

In what stretch has not taking the shot from perimeter passing been the issue? Off the dribble drive we have a pretty great selection, and not doing it more was our issue up against zone. Took plenty of outside shots...out of rthym and forced.

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Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 09, 2019, 07:56:25 PM
Half this board is still banking on Frank. Can’t admit defeat. Oh well, go cats!
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: steve dave on February 09, 2019, 08:05:18 PM
I, a solid human, love him


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Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: michigancat on February 09, 2019, 08:20:43 PM
I don't have the stats but seems to be much better at his shot select over this run, and with his D has no doubt been a major influence in the turn around. He's always good for a few key assists, too.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk



yeah you don't have the stats

the only problem with the shot selection on this team is when they hesitate when they're wide the eff open
Come on, you cant say that and not provide them. Hypocritical.

In what stretch has not taking the shot from perimeter passing been the issue? Off the dribble drive we have a pretty great selection, and not doing it more was our issue up against zone. Took plenty of outside shots...out of rthym and forced.

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I'm just speaking about general team shot selection in the past - the team looks best on offense when they don't hesitate.

honestly the offense looked great today. they got like a billion wide open corner threes when they didn't turn it over. there were maybe 1 or 2 "bad" shots? I think in general lots of people, especially KSOdors and possibly you, have dumb outdated ideas of what constitutes poor shot selection.

Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: stunted on February 09, 2019, 08:48:57 PM
haven't seen barry shoot a long 2 in a long time which is nice. even though he's relatively good at it, still not a great shot.

wade should be shooting 15 3s a game
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: MakeItRain on February 09, 2019, 08:50:43 PM
haven't seen barry shoot a long 2 in a long time which is nice. even though he's relatively good at it, still not a great shot.

wade should be shooting 15 3s a game

That matters a lot less in college basketball
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: stunted on February 09, 2019, 08:51:25 PM
how so?
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: cat97 on February 09, 2019, 08:52:10 PM
Some believe Kam is not better as a senior than he was as a freshman. There are some major differences we have seen in Big 12 play from his freshman year.
1.   Decision making on offense this year has been at a high level.  Shot selection, pushing the break or pulling it back out, etc. 
2.  His turnovers are way donw and particularly the bad pass turnover from trying to force something that is'nt there.  Or throwing a kickout pass that misses his target. 
3.  Passing has really been good.  Very crisp and strong.  He is doing a lot to get the ball to Dean in the right position. 
4.  His defense including on the ball, help and forcing turnovers is really strong this year. 
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: stunted on February 09, 2019, 08:56:06 PM
true. even though his stats are pretty similar 4 years, it does feel like he's way more solid out there.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: MakeItRain on February 09, 2019, 08:58:44 PM
how so?

1. Often in zone offenses the open shots are frequently between the elbows and the 3 point line.
2.A lot fewer possessions.
3. College basketball players aren't good enough to eschew taking the open shot. You get an open 19 footer you're not as likely to get something better before the shot clock expires.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: Kat Kid on February 09, 2019, 08:59:37 PM
his defense is a lot better
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: stunted on February 09, 2019, 09:28:55 PM
how so?

1. Often in zone offenses the open shots are frequently between the elbows and the 3 point line.
2.A lot fewer possessions.
3. College basketball players aren't good enough to eschew taking the open shot. You get an open 19 footer you're not as likely to get something better before the shot clock expires.

i think you have a point, it's completely fine to take some when the shot clocks under 10. but he and others were taking a lot of them, and pretty early in the shot clock. often contested too. they're about 35% shots so at .7 points per shot, a few of them can be costly.

i like to make a fuss about it but it's kind of interesting it does affect the college game a lot less when i think about it. for example turning the ball over is losing a point, so that's equal to say 5 bad shots (for whatever reason 5 bad shots feels worse than turning it over once to me). so a turnover is huge when college games have way less possessions, must be a big reason for oscar weber's success. when the nba shoots a bazillion times a game, losing .1-.2 points on a shot adds up way faster than in college.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: nicname on February 10, 2019, 01:19:53 AM
Kam has as much dog in him as anyone on this team. He is doing a masterful job of playing within himself and maximizing his talent -- probably better than anyone on this team.

He is definitely a plus player as a senior.

Code: [Select]
                                                                                                                                                   
Season          School   Conf   G GS   MP  PER  TS% eFG% 3PAr  FTr PProd ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV%  USG% OWS DWS  WS   WS/40 OBPM DBPM BPM
2015-16   Kansas State Big 12  21 20  563 12.0 .506 .468 .606 .318   196  2.6  9.7  6.0 20.7  2.1  0.0 18.4  21.1 0.5 0.7 1.3    .090  2.2  1.2 3.3
2016-17   Kansas State Big 12  35 35 1165 12.0 .509 .451 .522 .415   437  1.6  7.6  4.7 24.1  1.9  0.0 19.9  22.5 1.0 1.3 2.3    .079  1.8  0.3 2.1
2017-18   Kansas State Big 12  30 20  809 14.0 .505 .457 .563 .333   294  1.9  9.6  5.8 24.2  2.6  0.2 17.3  21.4 0.8 1.1 1.9    .092  1.6  1.3 2.9
2018-19   Kansas State Big 12  21 20  662 12.7 .494 .462 .597 .253   214  1.6  8.9  5.2 22.8  2.5  0.4 16.1  19.8 0.6 1.5 2.1    .126  1.6  3.0 4.6
Career           Kansas State 107 95 3199 12.6 .505 .458 .563 .344  1142  1.9  8.8  5.3 23.3  2.3  0.1 18.3  21.4 2.9 4.6 7.5    .094  1.8  1.3 3.0

Provided by CBB at Sports Reference (https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): View Original Table (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kamau-stokes-1.html?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#players_advanced)
Generated 2/10/2019.

Code: [Select]
                                                                                                                                                   
Season          School   Conf  G GS   MP  PER  TS% eFG% 3PAr  FTr PProd ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV%  USG% OWS DWS  WS    WS/40 OBPM DBPM BPM
2015-16   Kansas State Big 12  8  7  230 12.7 .534 .507 .620 .310    81  1.5  8.1  4.7 18.8  1.6  0.0 15.6  21.2 0.3 0.2 0.5                   .084
2016-17   Kansas State Big 12 18 18  624 11.4 .498 .418 .513 .466   246  2.0  8.0  4.9 25.9  2.0  0.0 20.9  24.1 0.4 0.3 0.7                   .044
2018-19   Kansas State Big 12  8  7  235 13.8 .460 .431 .677 .185    74  3.8  7.2  5.5 26.2  3.0  0.6 13.5  19.3 0.3 0.4 0.7                   .115
Career           Kansas State 34 32 1089 12.2 .499 .440 .569 .375   401  2.3  7.9  5.0 24.4  2.1  0.1 18.5  22.5 1.0 0.9 1.9                   .068

Provided by CBB at Sports Reference (https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): View Original Table (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kamau-stokes-1.html?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#players_advanced_conf)
Generated 2/10/2019.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: nicname on February 10, 2019, 01:20:39 AM
Top table is all games. Bottom is conference only. Kam's jump in WS/40 this season is remarkable. It's pushed to the far right in the bottom table.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: cas4ksu on February 11, 2019, 09:32:11 AM
He's been good this season. I'd have still preferred him coming off the bench and starting Diarra but it's not a hill for me to die on.

I wonder if Diarra's slow/inconsistent start to the season had something to do with readjusting to his role with Kam starting. He looks to have settled in a lot better here these last few weeks.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: Shooter Jones on February 11, 2019, 09:43:32 AM
He's been good this season. I'd have still preferred him coming off the bench and starting Diarra but it's not a hill for me to die on.

I wonder if Diarra's slow/inconsistent start to the season had something to do with readjusting to his role with Kam starting. He looks to have settled in a lot better here these last few weeks.

I'm very pro CD. But with this team and how solid the seniors have been, I think I actually like starting Kam, and using Carti as the spark plug energy/athleticism off the bench.

Only issue with that is, it seems more often than not, Carti does not have that much energy off the bench. When he does (obviously lately), though, he's perfect in that role.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: kso_FAN on February 11, 2019, 01:42:25 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/MVht6cL/League-Per-100s.png)

Very much so.  The KSOdors (tee hee) hate the dude for shooting so much.

Very true. A strong contingent of anti-Kam-ers over there.

Also (somehow) good offensive efficiency can be fool's gold..
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 11, 2019, 02:37:09 PM
Dean needs to shoot more 3's.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on February 25, 2019, 10:35:25 PM
If it wasn't for you we'd have lost by 25.  Thank you Mr. Stokes... (and i'm not a huge fan   :ohno: (ftp://:ohno:))
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on March 22, 2019, 03:34:54 PM
Thank you for being the only senior to show up.   :buh-bye: (ftp://:buh-bye:)
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: waks on March 22, 2019, 03:38:20 PM
Hard to blame Brown for Weber being an idiot.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on March 22, 2019, 03:43:37 PM
Hard to blame Brown for Weber being an idiot.

I will agree with you.  I also will blame Weber for playing Wade so much in that final game of the season. 
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 23, 2019, 01:34:41 AM
Hard to blame Brown for Weber being an idiot.

I will agree with you.  I also will blame Weber for playing Wade so much in that final game of the season.

LOL, you have to be a special kind of dumb to think that made a damn bit of difference.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: Winters on March 23, 2019, 04:52:59 AM
Stokes is easily the most underrated / most under appreciated cat of this millennium in my opinion and it's honestly not close. This will only become more true as time flies. Who is second? Jamar?
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: LibDerp7BubbleBoy on March 23, 2019, 10:08:31 AM
DJamer
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: Trim on March 23, 2019, 10:31:32 AM
Stokes is easily the most underrated / most under appreciated cat of this millennium in my opinion and it's honestly not close. This will only become more true as time flies. Who is second? Jamar?

Most of Frank's 'cats should have statues outside the fOOD already, so all of them ahead of whichever 'bite Stokes was.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: Kat Kid on March 23, 2019, 10:44:53 AM
DJamer

yep
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 23, 2019, 11:41:00 AM
Stokes is easily the most underrated / most under appreciated cat of this millennium in my opinion and it's honestly not close. This will only become more true as time flies. Who is second? Jamar?

Most of Frank's 'cats should have statues outside the fOOD already, so all of them ahead of whichever 'bite Stokes was.

You sound like a washed, bitter old man whining about back in the day.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: Trim on March 23, 2019, 12:18:24 PM
Stokes is easily the most underrated / most under appreciated cat of this millennium in my opinion and it's honestly not close. This will only become more true as time flies. Who is second? Jamar?

Most of Frank's 'cats should have statues outside the fOOD already, so all of them ahead of whichever 'bite Stokes was.

You sound like a washed, bitter old man whining about back in the day.

I'm whining about the present day lack of statues.
Title: Re: underappreciated.
Post by: stunted on March 23, 2019, 01:34:38 PM
Stokes is easily the most underrated / most under appreciated cat of this millennium in my opinion and it's honestly not close. This will only become more true as time flies. Who is second? Jamar?

Most of Frank's 'cats should have statues outside the fOOD already, so all of them ahead of whichever 'bite Stokes was.

You sound like a washed, bitter old man whining about back in the day.



so good. present > past 100% of the time