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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Football => Topic started by: DQ12 on December 12, 2018, 02:33:49 PM
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Ned Seaton (a complete OG) wrote an article in the Mercury today:
K-State will pay LHC Bill Snyder $3 million over the next three years, an amount equal to the buyout he would have been entitled to had he been fired, athletics director Gene Taylor told The Mercury Wednesday.
Taylor said Snyder was not fired, and that the payout was instead “for all he has done for our football team, our program and our community… it was something that we felt was important to do for him.”
http://themercury.com/news/local/bi...cle_0766941d-6397-557e-ad47-86135e11c59c.html (http://themercury.com/news/local/bi...cle_0766941d-6397-557e-ad47-86135e11c59c.html)
A couple of really strange things here:
(1) Gene's position is that K-State was under no obligation to pay Snyder $3m, but did so anyway. That's an odd position for an AD to take.
(2) Gene's obviously lying. And telling very obvious lies is a pretty gutsy/stupid move to make when he also just hired his friend (who was a very unpopular candidate) to be head coach. Why tell obvious lies when there are already questions about the integrity of the search?
(3) If Snyder actually was effectively fired (which one can assume based on the $3m payment), then why did it take so long? He stayed on like, 10 days after the season or something "thinking it over." What was there to think over? The delay doesn't make any sense to me.
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the mustang wanted him to make the decision on his own and retire, took him 10 days to realize he wasn't going to do it :dunno:
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Fired
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Meh
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I would think this is meant to insulate the AD from a future lawsuit if Snyder goes rogue.
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Mods please merge
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Also odd that when Snyder's contract was extended four months ago, it included a 50% raise to his buyout.
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He may have been fired, but they worked out a deal so that everyone won. Bill and Sean would not have been at the presser today if a deal was not worked out behind closed doors.
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Like, if a court deems he was fired, rather than retired, either way the contract wasn't breached.
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Mustang trying his dangdest (dangnest?) to let Bill save some face when he had to fire his stubborn 10 day waiting ass.
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#1 is the strangest. It seems like borderline incompetence/breach of fiduciary duty to spend $3 million without any real justification. Had it been paid as part of a consulting agreement it could at least be justified.
The rest, yeah we all know what’s going on. GT wanted Snyder to leave but he wouldn’t. When it was clear they were at an impasse he basically fired Snyder but did it in a way you couldn’t really say he was actually fired. Everyone knows what actually happened now, but when looking back 20 years from now people will just assume it really was a voluntary decision.
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Mods please merge
How dare you.
I would think this is meant to insulate the AD from a future lawsuit if Snyder goes rogue.
What scenario are you envisioning in which Snyder would have a claim?
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He may have been fired, but they worked out a deal so that everyone won. Bill and Sean would not have been at the presser today if a deal was not worked out behind closed doors.
Yeah, except everyone didn't win. K-State is still out $3 million bucks and it delayed our official search by over a week. And we ended up with a coach we didn't want.
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Mods please merge
How dare you.
I would think this is meant to insulate the AD from a future lawsuit if Snyder goes rogue.
What scenario are you envisioning in which Snyder would have a claim?
Without having all the information at my disposal, I can't really say for sure. But in ordinary employment situations, I could see the argument that an employee resigned under duress so that the employer could avoid paying a higher price for his termination. But Idk. Depends on what all docs Snyd signed.
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i mean, obviously dollar LHC Bill Snyder wasn't going to quit if it would cost him 3 million. so you give him 3 million to agree to quit. this is a pretty rough ridin' easy mystery.
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Not the least bit surprising, but still LOL at all those who ate up Ol' Bill being worried about those poor professors and putting on the ol Grandpa Snyder act in regards to them fancy facilities and big raises.
"Pay me" . . . LHC Bill Snyder
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CUT THE HEAD OFF
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Canned his ass
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i mean, obviously dollar LHC Bill Snyder wasn't going to quit if it would cost him 3 million. so you give him 3 million to agree to quit. this is a pretty rough ridin' easy mystery.
Exactly. Let's call it a "negotiated retirement." But you're missing my point.
Gene was straight up asked about the character of the $3 million payment. His response “for all he has done for our football team, our program and our community… it was something that we felt was important to do for him.”
He said today at the press conference: "It was just something where I said, 'You know Coach, you're leaving a lot (of money) on the table. I would like to take care of you.' He said, 'Absolutely,'" Taylor said. "So he's going to get his $3 million, and he deserves every penny of it because of what he did for this program. I'm happy to do it."
As you said, that's all false. It was paid as a condition of his retirement. He doesn't have to say those things. He doesn't have to comment on the terms of Snyder's retirement at all. That's what public figures generally do when they're asked questions they don't want to answer. But when they lie they lose credibility. And when there are doubts about the legitimacy of the coaching search already, Gene should be cognizant of his credibility.
I also think Gene should be cognizant of his word choice. He basically told everyone that he made a voluntary $3 million payment to Snyder out of the Athletic Department's funds. If you're going to lie, you should think of a better lie than "I gifted $3 million of our budget."
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That's bullcrap
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Gene is basically the head of a multi-million dollar business. And just like any other president/CEO in his position, no one GAF about credibility as long as he’s making everyone rich.
I think GT can pay the lip service to make it sound like he’s doing a good thing for Bill even though everyone knows he canned his ass. My only issue is that he needs to have an explanation about how the $3 million he spent benefits the university, not Snyder.
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And let’s be clear, CK was an unpopular hire, but that doesn’t mean it was a bad one. Just think of all the people who thought Steve Jobs was out of his mind until he made everyone rich. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with GT being completely unapologetic at this point for his decision. Obviously if it doesn’t pan out he will face the consequences though.
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Gene is basically the head of a multi-million dollar business. And just like any other president/CEO in his position, no one GAF about credibility as long as he’s making everyone rich.
I think GT can pay the lip service to make it sound like he’s doing a good thing for Bill even though everyone knows he canned his ass. My only issue is that he needs to have an explanation about how the $3 million he spent benefits the university, not Snyder.
I tend to agree with you. Nobody cares about the search process if CK works out to be a great coach. But if CK goes out and loses 8 games next year, people are going to be wondering why/how we ended up with this NDSU head coach that none of us wanted in the first place.
And to your second point, yes. If you're going to lie about something, the lie you tell should at least be rational. Under any circumstance where you're not subject to perjury, telling people you gifted $3 million of athletic department/donor funds is insane.
And let’s be clear, CK was an unpopular hire, but that doesn’t mean it was a bad one.
Yes I agree but we're not talking about that ITT.
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i mean, obviously dollar LHC LHC Bill Snyder wasn't going to quit if it would cost him 3 million. so you give him 3 million to agree to quit. this is a pretty rough ridin' easy mystery.
Exactly. Let's call it a "negotiated retirement." But you're missing my point.
Gene was straight up asked about the character of the $3 million payment. His response “for all he has done for our football team, our program and our community… it was something that we felt was important to do for him.”
He said today at the press conference: "It was just something where I said, 'You know Coach, you're leaving a lot (of money) on the table. I would like to take care of you.' He said, 'Absolutely,'" Taylor said. "So he's going to get his $3 million, and he deserves every penny of it because of what he did for this program. I'm happy to do it."
As you said, that's all false. It was paid as a condition of his retirement. He doesn't have to say those things. He doesn't have to comment on the terms of Snyder's retirement at all. That's what public figures generally do when they're asked questions they don't want to answer. But when they lie they lose credibility. And when there are doubts about the legitimacy of the coaching search already, Gene should be cognizant of his credibility.
I also think Gene should be cognizant of his word choice. He basically told everyone that he made a voluntary $3 million payment to Snyder out of the Athletic Department's funds. If you're going to lie, you should think of a better lie than "I gifted $3 million of our budget."
I get a feeling you really dislike ADGT and really really dislike NHFBCCK
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someone tip off Dennis Dodd!!!!
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The KSO Krew was all in on Seth. They missed their mid-major messiah.
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I get a feeling you really dislike ADGT and really really dislike NHFBCCK
I have no problem with CK actually. He wasn't my first choice but I think he could be really good for us.
I do not trust Gene Taylor at all. I have a lot of doubt about the integrity of this coaching search.
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The KSO Krew was all in on Seth. They missed their mid-major messiah.
The KSO Krew has almost entirely come to heel, just as Gene Taylor knew they would.
FWIW, I also came to heel with regard to CK.
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The KSO Krew was all in on Seth. They missed their mid-major messiah.
The KSO Krew has almost entirely come to heel, just as Gene Taylor knew they would.
Yes we have.
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I get a feeling you really dislike ADGT and really really dislike NHFBCCK
I have no problem with CK actually. He wasn't my first choice but I think he could be really good for us.
I do not trust Gene Taylor at all. I have a lot of doubt about the integrity of this coaching search.
Well... to say there is no reasonable doubt would be a lie. So I think you have some leg to stand on.
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I get a feeling you really dislike ADGT and really really dislike NHFBCCK
I have no problem with CK actually. He wasn't my first choice but I think he could be really good for us.
I do not trust Gene Taylor at all. I have a lot of doubt about the integrity of this coaching search.
Well... to say there is no reasonable doubt would be a lie. So I think you have some leg to stand on.
I don't even have much of a problem with him hiring his friend, in a vacuum. But with Gene showing that he's willing to lie about stupid stuff, along with the 11th hour failure of the SL negotiations and all the misinformation that's come out with that, something really stinks with Gene.
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And to your second point, yes. If you're going to lie about something, the lie you tell should at least be rational. Under any circumstance where you're not subject to perjury, telling people you gifted $3 million of athletic department/donor funds is insane.
My thought is that if he hasn’t already privately told them, GT is just assuming any major donor can read between the lines to understand the $3 million was severance instead of a gift. I mean, the fact it is the exact same amount as the buyout is itself the equivalent of a wink while he says “Bill wasn’t fired.”
Of course it would have been smarter to avoid saying something obviously untrue, but I don’t think he can get in trouble for it since the AD doesn’t really have shareholders and does not receive taxpayer dollars.
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dlew.
IDEA:
turn your podcast in to a Serial like true crime mystery and uncover the true depths of this story.
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The KSO Krew was all in on Seth. They missed their mid-major messiah.
The KSO Krew has almost entirely come to heel, just as Gene Taylor knew they would.
Yes we have.
I mean of course most of them did, that was never in doubt. But not everyone.
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And to your second point, yes. If you're going to lie about something, the lie you tell should at least be rational. Under any circumstance where you're not subject to perjury, telling people you gifted $3 million of athletic department/donor funds is insane.
My thought is that if he hasn’t already privately told them, GT is just assuming any major donor can read between the lines to understand the $3 million was severance instead of a gift. I mean, the fact it is the exact same amount as the buyout is itself the equivalent of a wink while he says “Bill wasn’t fired.”
Of course it would have been smarter to avoid saying something obviously untrue, but I don’t think he can get in trouble for it since the AD doesn’t really have shareholders and does not receive taxpayer dollars.
Practically speaking though, he's in a position of trust. A big part of his job is asking people for money.
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dlew.
IDEA:
turn your podcast in to a Serial like true crime mystery and uncover the true depths of this story.
Set up a Patreon and I'm in.
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Gene was straight up asked about the character of the $3 million payment. His response “for all he has done for our football team, our program and our community… it was something that we felt was important to do for him.”
He said today at the press conference: "It was just something where I said, 'You know Coach, you're leaving a lot (of money) on the table. I would like to take care of you.' He said, 'Absolutely,'" Taylor said. "So he's going to get his $3 million, and he deserves every penny of it because of what he did for this program. I'm happy to do it."
I'm not sure why you call this a lie. It pretty much lines up with "hey coach we want you to retire, don't worry we'll pay the buyout, but we're prepared to fire you if you want to go that route"
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I like this part:
K-State officials Wednesday told The Mercury there were no written records documenting Snyder’s retirement or the terms of any arrangement, beyond the employment contract he signed in August.
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"It was just something where I said, 'You know Coach, you're leaving a lot (of money) on the table. I would like to take care of you.' He said, 'Absolutely."
I'm not sure why you call this a lie. It pretty much lines up with "hey coach we want you to retire, don't worry we'll pay the buyout, but we're prepared to fire you if you want to go that route"
I disagree.
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dlew.
IDEA:
turn your podcast in to a Serial like true crime mystery and uncover the true depths of this story.
Set up a Patreon and I'm in.
I want to. I find this whole thing extremely captivating.
The brazenness with which Taylor is doing this!
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I like this part:
K-State officials Wednesday told The Mercury there were no written records documenting Snyder’s retirement or the terms of any arrangement, beyond the employment contract he signed in August.
Ayup
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Snyder's ass being canned for eff head is pretty simple. The mysterious part is what went down as the contract to pay OBz was expiring in January 2018 and on through the new contract in August 2018 that got him an extra $1m of severance and had all the severance money paid out in just 3 years instead of 7.
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dlew.
IDEA:
turn your podcast in to a Serial like true crime mystery and uncover the true depths of this story.
Set up a Patreon and I'm in.
I want to. I find this whole thing extremely captivating.
The brazenness with which Taylor is doing this!
He's rubbing your face in it.
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Snyder's ass being canned for eff head is pretty simple. The mysterious part is what went down as the contract to pay OBz was expiring in January 2018 and on through the new contract in August 2018 that got him an extra $1m of severance and had all the severance money paid out in just 3 years instead of 7.
Exactly. We upped Snyder's buyout by 50% when he was 78 years old and he retired 4 months later?!?! What!
But I think most people are operating under the assumption that the coaching search was a legitimate, bonafide search carried out in good faith. I don't know about that!
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dlew.
IDEA:
turn your podcast in to a Serial like true crime mystery and uncover the true depths of this story.
Set up a Patreon and I'm in.
I want to. I find this whole thing extremely captivating.
The brazenness with which Taylor is doing this!
Bring LSOC and I on the adventure. We held Squawkstin and Fanbeck's hands through their dive into the RP-Broiler debacle.
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And to your second point, yes. If you're going to lie about something, the lie you tell should at least be rational. Under any circumstance where you're not subject to perjury, telling people you gifted $3 million of athletic department/donor funds is insane.
My thought is that if he hasn’t already privately told them, GT is just assuming any major donor can read between the lines to understand the $3 million was severance instead of a gift. I mean, the fact it is the exact same amount as the buyout is itself the equivalent of a wink while he says “Bill wasn’t fired.”
Of course it would have been smarter to avoid saying something obviously untrue, but I don’t think he can get in trouble for it since the AD doesn’t really have shareholders and does not receive taxpayer dollars.
Practically speaking though, he's in a position of trust. A big part of his job is asking people for money.
Yes, true. But like I said, it seems very obvious to me what happened here, and I personally don’t mind him saying the opposite because it’s a polite lie, not a deceptive one. Kind of like, “yes I loved the meatloaf but I just realized I’m not hungry after that bite I took.”
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This has all the makings of a shell corporation payout and a life insurance beneficiary
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Snyder's ass being canned for eff head is pretty simple. The mysterious part is what went down as the contract to pay OBz was expiring in January 2018 and on through the new contract in August 2018 that got him an extra $1m of severance and had all the severance money paid out in just 3 years instead of 7.
Exactly. We upped Snyder's buyout by 50% when he was 78 years old and he retired 4 months later?!?! What!
But I think most people are operating under the assumption that the coaching search was a legitimate, bonafide search carried out in good faith. I don't know about that!
I think the first part is going to be that Gene was in over his head at dealing with the Snyders and the support they had at that time. Knowing that eff head was eventually going to be the guy, and if he truly believed in him, he should've canned OBz's ass at the beginning of 2018.
And yeah, lol at the "search."
https://twitter.com/HEROSportsHerd/status/1072300511171411970
https://twitter.com/VenturaPartners/status/1072505152408612865
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The KSO Krew was all in on Seth. They missed their mid-major messiah.
:sdeek:
:pray:
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Snyder's ass being canned for eff head is pretty simple. The mysterious part is what went down as the contract to pay OBz was expiring in January 2018 and on through the new contract in August 2018 that got him an extra $1m of severance and had all the severance money paid out in just 3 years instead of 7.
Exactly. We upped Snyder's buyout by 50% when he was 78 years old and he retired 4 months later?!?! What!
But I think most people are operating under the assumption that the coaching search was a legitimate, bonafide search carried out in good faith. I don't know about that!
There is no chance in hell that a bonifide search was done, but surely everyone knew that before it even "happened". This is the Kansas State University Athletic Department we are talking about. I've been following KSU sports for a long time now, and I don't think we've ever had a legitimate coaching search.
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Yes, true. But like I said, it seems very obvious to me what happened here, and I personally don’t mind him saying the opposite because it’s a polite lie, not a deceptive one. Kind of like, “yes I loved the meatloaf but I just realized I’m not hungry after that bite I took.”
Well, yeah they're the same except one is regarding whether you liked meatloaf and the other is about why you gave away $3 million entrusted to you.
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Ok, look guys. I was a little shaken when Pete and Blackcats turned out to be wrong, but now you’re saying they full on got duped into thinking we were on the verge of hiring LittreLL over CK? I’m not gonna stand for that.
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Yes, true. But like I said, it seems very obvious to me what happened here, and I personally don’t mind him saying the opposite because it’s a polite lie, not a deceptive one. Kind of like, “yes I loved the meatloaf but I just realized I’m not hungry after that bite I took.”
Well, yeah they're the same except one is regarding whether you liked meatloaf and the other is about why you gave away $3 million entrusted to you.
You’re missing my point. It’s not a trust issue because everyone knows what actually happened and GT knows everyone knows. It’s just being polite to say we didn’t can his ass.
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Definitely fired.
$3 million saved us from the age discrimination lawsuit.
It was worth it.
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Snyder's ass being canned for eff head is pretty simple. The mysterious part is what went down as the contract to pay OBz was expiring in January 2018 and on through the new contract in August 2018 that got him an extra $1m of severance and had all the severance money paid out in just 3 years instead of 7.
Exactly. We upped Snyder's buyout by 50% when he was 78 years old and he retired 4 months later?!?! What!
But I think most people are operating under the assumption that the coaching search was a legitimate, bonafide search carried out in good faith. I don't know about that!
I'll agree that this part stinks on ice
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Here's Snyder's 2018 contract embedded in the article: https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/big-12/kansas-state/article216393305.html
Looks like kstatesports quit posting these things on the website after Currie left. I'm still looking for a clean copy of eff head's.
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Snyder's ass being canned for eff head is pretty simple. The mysterious part is what went down as the contract to pay OBz was expiring in January 2018 and on through the new contract in August 2018 that got him an extra $1m of severance and had all the severance money paid out in just 3 years instead of 7.
Exactly. We upped Snyder's buyout by 50% when he was 78 years old and he retired 4 months later?!?! What!
But I think most people are operating under the assumption that the coaching search was a legitimate, bonafide search carried out in good faith. I don't know about that!
I'll agree that this part stinks on ice
And if it was just one thing, then MEHHH, whatever. But all of a sudden, you start thinking back on this stuff and you recognize a pattern that doesn't seem like normal weird athletic department stuff.
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Definitely fired.
$3 million saved us from the age discrimination lawsuit.
It was worth it.
(Bison fan)
Could also be due the stupid clauses about Snyder getting to playing a role in the hiring of his successor and being a campus ambassador.
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Not the least bit surprising, but still LOL at all those who ate up Ol' Bill being worried about those poor professors and putting on the ol Grandpa Snyder act in regards to them fancy facilities and big raises.
"Pay me" . . . LHC Bill Snyder
And who in the eff wouldn't; name one college FB coach who would forgo cash to be had. :dubious:
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Going back to the financial parameters comment we talked about yesterday, was eff head put up against who else was out there (in the whole world of america?) or who else was out there that was good with being the lowest paid coach in the conference or who Ventura Partners cleared to be measured up to the meadowlark stick?
https://twitter.com/jlkurtz/status/1072962197490466834
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Of course, none of them were ever going to be able to match up to eff head when it came to the determining qualification - Gene knowing them.
https://twitter.com/jlkurtz/status/1072962478559166477
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Look at pretty much any major company and it’s the same deal. People hire people they know. Most companies are lucky to have more than one independent director on their board. It’s not some terrible thing if they’re qualified.
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The Mustang gives zero fucks about what he said. He's Jedi mindfucked 90% of the fanbase to come around on his guy. I'm sure he thinks he can say/do whatever he wants now with no negative consequences.
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Look at pretty much any major company and it’s the same deal. People hire people they know. Most companies are lucky to have more than one independent director on their board. It’s not some terrible thing if they’re qualified.
Yea, it's called the "Good Ole Boys". These rich cooperate fucks take care of themselves. NCAA is the same bullshit; it's a money making machine run by the "Good Ole Boys". :th_twocents:
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I think Klieman has known he would be the new HC for quite a while. How else do you explain the recruiting commitments in the 2 days after the hire? Very fishy.
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Gene thinks his audience are all dumbasses. And he’s mostly right
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The Mustang gives zero fucks about what he said. He's Jedi mindfucked 90% of the fanbase to come around on his guy. I'm sure he thinks he can say/do whatever he wants now with no negative consequences.
He's right about that; look at all the stupid gaolable fans that are "all right" with this hire.
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Same fans that went from wanting oscar fired to declaring him a hero the day Virginia lost to a 16 seed :flush:
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The worst part is the latest hoodwinking is being conducted by dakotan iowans.
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so, the red ass actually did show old balls the door. then they reach a gentle agreement to not let on. :billdance:
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Overrated frauds.
Source: they lost to KSU
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Keep your dumbass takes about K-State basketball out of this thread.
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I read this entire thread in keith morrison’s voice. a real dateline episode, to be sure
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Is the Mustang our Cheyenne Zulu?
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He’s either a puppet for Myers/Snyder or a huge swinging dick that just silver backed a guy with his name on the stadium and hired someone the majority of boosters and fans told him not to.
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He may have been fired, but they worked out a deal so that everyone won. Bill and Sean would not have been at the presser today if a deal was not worked out behind closed doors.
Yeah, except everyone didn't win. K-State is still out $3 million bucks and it delayed our official search by over a week. And we ended up with a coach we didn't want.
wut
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Taylor was probably hired under the presumption that Klieman would eventually follow. Shrewd move IMO.
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Need to update the old Snyder video with gene taylor pulling the trigger instead of John Currie
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There's no conspiracy, it's actually pretty simple, the most logical conclusion is a lot more simple than dlew and trim are making it out to be.
First regarding Bill's contract. He was given what's essentially a lifetime contract. The contract was absolutely problematic, most K-State fans have spent the last three or so years bitching about the rolling contract. Gene also sees the issue with the contract and wants to change it. He didn't renegotiate the contract in 2017 because he just got here. Isn't the very obvious reason for the increased buyout is that Bill asked for it when this new athletic director asked him to get rid of his rolling contract?
As far as whether or not this was a bonafide coaching search, of course it was. Even if Gene began with the end in mind, I think he did, so what? He knew he wanted to hire Klieman, but he did his due diligence to see if there was anyone who could blow him away. They didn't. Also dlew, to say you don't have a problem with Klieman but you have a problem with the search is disingenuous. The only question is if he hired a qualified applicant. Klieman is certainly qualified, especially placed against the other candidates. Did he hire someone he had a previous relationship with? Of course, why wouldn't he? That's what many people who hire others do. I feel like this is done in the legal profession, a lot, why are we acting like this is in need of a special council?
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There's no conspiracy, it's actually pretty simple, the most logical conclusion is a lot more simple than dlew and trim are making it out to be.
First regarding Bill's contract. He was given what's essentially a lifetime contract. The contract was absolutely problematic, most K-State fans have spent the last three or so years bitching about the rolling contract. Gene also sees the issue with the contract and wants to change it. He didn't renegotiate the contract in 2017 because he just got here. Isn't the very obvious reason for the increased buyout is that Bill asked for it when this new athletic director asked him to get rid of his rolling contract?
As far as whether or not this was a bonafide coaching search, of course it was. Even if Gene began with the end in mind, I think he did, so what? He knew he wanted to hire Klieman, but he did his due diligence to see if there was anyone who could blow him away. They didn't. Also dlew, to say you don't have a problem with Klieman but you have a problem with the search is disingenuous. The only question is if he hired a qualified applicant. Klieman is certainly qualified, especially placed against the other candidates. Did he hire someone he had a previous relationship with? Of course, why wouldn't he? That's what many people who hire others do. I feel like this is done in the legal profession, a lot, why are we acting like this is in need of a special council?
:clap:
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Is the Mustang our Cheyenne Zulu?
lol no
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First regarding Bill's contract. He was given what's essentially a lifetime contract. The contract was absolutely problematic, most K-State fans have spent the last three or so years bitching about the rolling contract. Gene also sees the issue with the contract and wants to change it. He didn't renegotiate the contract in 2017 because he just got here. Isn't the very obvious reason for the increased buyout is that Bill asked for it when this new athletic director asked him to get rid of his rolling contract?
The new contract didn't fix any sort of rollover problem. There was no rollover problem. The ability to end Bill's tenure didn't change one bit between the prior version and the new version, other than that the new version had us paying more (and quicker) to terminate him.
The reason there needed to be a new contract is because the old one, while it rolled over with respect to Bill's job, did not roll over beyond 1/31/18 with respect to paying him. As written, Bill's 1/31/18 paycheck should've been his last one. That's what prompted there to be a need for something to be done in writing. It could have been a pretty simple addendum. Instead it was a new contract. Bill may had some perceived leverage to get an increased buyout in that Gene would've looked like crap to most of KSTATEO if Bill walked at a time when people were excited about the 2018 football season. Gene should've let him go then and installed his boy.
As far as whether or not this was a bonafide coaching search, of course it was. Even if Gene began with the end in mind, I think he did, so what? He knew he wanted to hire Klieman, but he did his due diligence to see if there was anyone who could blow him away. They didn't. Also dlew, to say you don't have a problem with Klieman but you have a problem with the search is disingenuous. The only question is if he hired a qualified applicant. Klieman is certainly qualified, especially placed against the other candidates. Did he hire someone he had a previous relationship with? Of course, why wouldn't he? That's what many people who hire others do. I feel like this is done in the legal profession, a lot, why are we acting like this is in need of a special council?
Agreeing that he always wanted Klieman:
1) Did it require $2.3m to get him?
2) Did we only entertain options who were cool with $2.3m?
3) If Gene weighed all the options and couldn't tell a difference so he went for the one he knew, should a more discerning eye gotten involved?
It's counsel, Don. ;)
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One more thing. I Gene told Kietzman that he didn't ask Snyder to retire, and I believe him. Gene did say they talked "legacy," whatever that means. However it happened, Snyder felt it wasn't his time to go. If Gene made the decision to give him a full buyout to avoid any ugliness, it's absolutely the right thing to do. This program needed a fresh start and that couldn't happen immediately with the looming cloud of a potential battle with LHC Bill Snyder. Also bear in mind that there are big money donors that still wanted him here.
And by the way, if Bill felt like he wasn't ready to go, he should take every penny of that money. Doesn't he have like 9 grandkids? Who in the hell is going to not want to take $3 million when you're 80 and have as many kids and grandkids as he does, it would be completely irresponsible, especially given he worked for his entire career giving the hometown discount. Stop calling him selfish, he's taking care of his family, I would hope you broke dicks would do the same.
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One more thing. I Gene told Kietzman that he didn't ask Snyder to retire, and I believe him. Gene did say they talked "legacy," whatever that means. However it happened, Snyder felt it wasn't his time to go. If Gene made the decision to give him a full buyout to avoid any ugliness, it's absolutely the right thing to do. This program needed a fresh start and that couldn't happen immediately with the looming cloud of a potential battle with LHC Bill Snyder. Also bear in mind that there are big money donors that still wanted him here.
And by the way, if Bill felt like he wasn't ready to go, he should take every penny of that money. Doesn't he have like 9 grandkids? Who in the hell is going to not want to take $3 million when you're 80 and have as many kids and grandkids as he does, it would be completely irresponsible, especially given he worked for his entire career giving the hometown discount. Stop calling him selfish, he's taking care of his family, I would hope you broke dicks would do the same.
Agree, did you mean to post this in the LHC Bill Snyder thread? I feel like I just wrote up this conversation there.
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I rough ridin' told you to merge the thread 7 hours ago
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I rough ridin' told you to merge the thread 7 hours ago
User error.
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First regarding Bill's contract. He was given what's essentially a lifetime contract. The contract was absolutely problematic, most K-State fans have spent the last three or so years bitching about the rolling contract. Gene also sees the issue with the contract and wants to change it. He didn't renegotiate the contract in 2017 because he just got here. Isn't the very obvious reason for the increased buyout is that Bill asked for it when this new athletic director asked him to get rid of his rolling contract?
The new contract didn't fix any sort of rollover problem. There was no rollover problem. The ability to end Bill's tenure didn't change one bit between the prior version and the new version, other than that the new version had us paying more (and quicker) to terminate him.
The reason there needed to be a new contract is because the old one, while it rolled over with respect to Bill's job, did not roll over beyond 1/31/18 with respect to paying him. As written, Bill's 1/31/18 paycheck should've been his last one. That's what prompted there to be a need for something to be done in writing. It could have been a pretty simple addendum. Instead it was a new contract. Bill may had some perceived leverage to get an increased buyout in that Gene would've looked like crap to most of KSTATEO if Bill walked at a time when people were excited about the 2018 football season. Gene should've let him go then and installed his boy.
As far as whether or not this was a bonafide coaching search, of course it was. Even if Gene began with the end in mind, I think he did, so what? He knew he wanted to hire Klieman, but he did his due diligence to see if there was anyone who could blow him away. They didn't. Also dlew, to say you don't have a problem with Klieman but you have a problem with the search is disingenuous. The only question is if he hired a qualified applicant. Klieman is certainly qualified, especially placed against the other candidates. Did he hire someone he had a previous relationship with? Of course, why wouldn't he? That's what many people who hire others do. I feel like this is done in the legal profession, a lot, why are we acting like this is in need of a special council?
Agreeing that he always wanted Klieman:
1) Did it require $2.3m to get him?
2) Did we only entertain options who were cool with $2.3m?
3) If Gene weighed all the options and couldn't tell a difference so he went for the one he knew, should a more discerning eye gotten involved?
It's counsel, Don. ;)
Whether or not the new contract resolved a rollover issue is immaterial. I'll defer to you as you certainly have a better knowledge of what's in those contracts. I will say that if the new contract didn't solve any rollover issues, that doesn't match the rhetoric from both contacts. The one Currie did was criticized from the start and the one that Gene did wasn't. The real story here is that you can only bitch about the increased buyout if you ignore seems like the most likely scenario and that's Bill is the one who wanted it. And yes, if he asked for a $3 million buyout, you absolutely give it to him. That's an insanely low buyout for any P5 coach. You want to talk about "small time?" There's nothing more small timey than potentially arguing about a $3 million buyout for a hall of fame football coach.
Note to Klieman's contract.
1. Yes, he is worth $2.3 million, and you know it too. What he made before is immaterial. That's a good value for a P5 coach with no P5 experience. We would have had to pay LittreLL, Brown, and Norvell more than that but with the exception of Norvell, there isn't any additional relevant experience to match the price tag.
People who keep mentioning his previous salary in relation to what we paid him are to blinded by bias to be rational. Did any of those people expect ku to base their salary for miles based on what he was making from Dos Equis? Did anyone think ASU should pay Herm Edwards based on his ESPN salary? How much do you think Jim Harbaugh's first contract was at Stanford?
As silly as I think the discussion over Bill's buyout is, at least it's possible that dlew is right, not at all likely, but possible. The discussion over this dudes salary is triple dumb. Not only does it assume that he didn't ask for something north of $2 million, but he's absolutely a bargain given the market, so who the hell cares?
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One more thing. I Gene told Kietzman that he didn't ask Snyder to retire, and I believe him. Gene did say they talked "legacy," whatever that means. However it happened, Snyder felt it wasn't his time to go. If Gene made the decision to give him a full buyout to avoid any ugliness, it's absolutely the right thing to do. This program needed a fresh start and that couldn't happen immediately with the looming cloud of a potential battle with LHC Bill Snyder. Also bear in mind that there are big money donors that still wanted him here.
And by the way, if Bill felt like he wasn't ready to go, he should take every penny of that money. Doesn't he have like 9 grandkids? Who in the hell is going to not want to take $3 million when you're 80 and have as many kids and grandkids as he does, it would be completely irresponsible, especially given he worked for his entire career giving the hometown discount. Stop calling him selfish, he's taking care of his family, I would hope you broke dicks would do the same.
Agree, did you mean to post this in the LHC Bill Snyder thread? I feel like I just wrote up this conversation there.
The second paragraph? Yeah, I was on a roll though and I didn't remember which of the two threads I read that dumb crap in.
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Whether or not the new contract resolved a rollover issue is immaterial. I'll defer to you as you certainly have a better knowledge of what's in those contracts. I will say that if the new contract didn't solve any rollover issues, that doesn't match the rhetoric from both contacts. The one Currie did was criticized from the start and the one that Gene did wasn't. The real story here is that you can only bitch about the increased buyout if you ignore seems like the most likely scenario and that's Bill is the one who wanted it. And yes, if he asked for a $3 million buyout, you absolutely give it to him. That's an insanely low buyout for any P5 coach. You want to talk about "small time?" There's nothing more small timey than potentially arguing about a $3 million buyout for a hall of fame football coach.
The rhetoric was dumb and from people who couldn't be bothered to pull up and read a pretty simple contract. I corrected it all on KSO last year at Jeff's request and again a few weeks back (and Matt Hall still hasn't renewed my comp'd membership for my services, so eff 'em).
Bitching about the buyout isn't so much bitching about that little aspect, but about why an entire new contract was done at all at that time. The reality is that Gene/KSU had all the leverage. Again, the rollover thing was nonsense. Bill's employment effectively ended 1/31/18. If Gene had his guy all along, canning his ass then would've been prudent, not just saving money but also not letting 2018 and eventually losing to iowa state happen.
Note to Klieman's contract.
1. Yes, he is worth $2.3 million, and you know it too. What he made before is immaterial. That's a good value for a P5 coach with no P5 experience. We would have had to pay LittreLL, Brown, and Norvell more than that but with the exception of Norvell, there isn't any additional relevant experience to match the price tag.
People who keep mentioning his previous salary in relation to what we paid him are to blinded by bias to be rational. Did any of those people expect ku to base their salary for miles based on what he was making from Dos Equis? Did anyone think ASU should pay Herm Edwards based on his ESPN salary? How much do you think Jim Harbaugh's first contract was at Stanford?
As silly as I think the discussion over Bill's buyout is, at least it's possible that dlew is right, not at all likely, but possible. The discussion over this dudes salary is triple dumb. Not only does it assume that he didn't ask for something north of $2 million, but he's absolutely a bargain given the market, so who the hell cares?
I asked the first two because of Gene's "financial parameters" comment from a day or two ago. As you know, I've always felt that it's wise to break the bank on a stud football coach because it's a great investment. I wish we'd have put it out there that KSU is interested in whipping ass at football and if you can do that, holler at us because we're paying. Gene's comment, what Klieman got, and who's known to have been considered and not considered indicate we did the opposite.
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One more thing. I Gene told Kietzman that he didn't ask Snyder to retire, and I believe him. Gene did say they talked "legacy," whatever that means. However it happened, Snyder felt it wasn't his time to go. If Gene made the decision to give him a full buyout to avoid any ugliness, it's absolutely the right thing to do. This program needed a fresh start and that couldn't happen immediately with the looming cloud of a potential battle with LHC Bill Snyder. Also bear in mind that there are big money donors that still wanted him here.
And by the way, if Bill felt like he wasn't ready to go, he should take every penny of that money. Doesn't he have like 9 grandkids? Who in the hell is going to not want to take $3 million when you're 80 and have as many kids and grandkids as he does, it would be completely irresponsible, especially given he worked for his entire career giving the hometown discount. Stop calling him selfish, he's taking care of his family, I would hope you broke dicks would do the same.
Agree, did you mean to post this in the LHC Bill Snyder thread? I feel like I just wrote up this conversation there.
The second paragraph? Yeah, I was on a roll though and I didn't remember which of the two threads I read that dumb crap in.
:lol:
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Bitching about the buyout isn't so much bitching about that little aspect, but about why an entire new contract was done at all at that time. The reality is that Gene/KSU had all the leverage. Again, the rollover thing was nonsense. Bill's employment effectively ended 1/31/18. If Gene had his guy all along, canning his ass then would've been prudent, not just saving money but also not letting 2018 and eventually losing to iowa state happen.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/78dbda889220786bec66ef4f2b455737/tenor.gif)
I don't envision any scenario in which Gene had any leverage on LHC Bill Snyder before the total circus of this season happened. I don't even think the wins and losses are what swung the pendulum but the players leaving is what did it. It was the lying empty threat of Shannon Spradling come to life but it was actually happening. Our current scholarship numbers are disastrous.
I asked the first two because of Gene's "financial parameters" comment from a day or two ago. As you know, I've always felt that it's wise to break the bank on a stud football coach because it's a great investment. I wish we'd have put it out there that KSU is interested in whipping ass at football and if you can do that, holler at us because we're paying. Gene's comment, what Klieman got, and who's known to have been considered and not considered indicate we did the opposite.
Yeah, that would have been nice, he would have had to have gotten donor assurances to make that happen though. As much as I would have loved to have him, I don't think paying Dino Babers $4.3 million and the staff another $2.7 along with about $10 million in buyouts for two staffs would be worth cost of the title IX lawsuit for taking the needed money from Olympic sports because Carl Ice didn't want to fork over the cash.
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Bitching about the buyout isn't so much bitching about that little aspect, but about why an entire new contract was done at all at that time. The reality is that Gene/KSU had all the leverage. Again, the rollover thing was nonsense. Bill's employment effectively ended 1/31/18. If Gene had his guy all along, canning his ass then would've been prudent, not just saving money but also not letting 2018 and eventually losing to iowa state happen.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/78dbda889220786bec66ef4f2b455737/tenor.gif)
I don't envision any scenario in which Gene had any leverage on LHC Bill Snyder before the total circus of this season happened. I don't even think the wins and losses are what swung the pendulum but the players leaving is what did it. It was the lying empty threat of Shannon Spradling come to life but it was actually happening. Our current scholarship numbers are disastrous.
I asked the first two because of Gene's "financial parameters" comment from a day or two ago. As you know, I've always felt that it's wise to break the bank on a stud football coach because it's a great investment. I wish we'd have put it out there that KSU is interested in whipping ass at football and if you can do that, holler at us because we're paying. Gene's comment, what Klieman got, and who's known to have been considered and not considered indicate we did the opposite.
Yeah, that would have been nice, he would have had to have gotten donor assurances to make that happen though. As much as I would have loved to have him, I don't think paying Dino Babers $4.3 million and the staff another $2.7 along with about $10 million in buyouts for two staffs would be worth cost of the title IX lawsuit for taking the needed money from Olympic sports because Carl Ice didn't want to fork over the cash.
KSU had the leverage contractually. KSU's done a good job of making the contracts harder to find online, but it's on my couch next to me. You still gotta come up some time. KSU's obligation to pay Bill ended 1/31/18. In a vacuum, we had a job opening and filled it with old, declining Bill. With the option of being able to hire anyone for the job at that time, including his beloved eff head, should Gene have picked Bill AND given him a raise AND given him an extra $1m when he'd inevitably be canned?
Of course, it's not in a vacuum and Gene naturally didn't want to do a youtube with Brian Smoller to explain that Bill won't be around anymore. So practically, not nearly as much leverage as they had contractually.
Definitely would've needed the donors to be sold on investing in a Dino-or-above coaching staff. That should've been an easy sell though, right? If these people are giving millions of dollars for a part of a facility, wouldn't they see the value in giving that to a coach who will have the greatest chance of success that leads to exponential return on the initial investment that can be used to build even better facilities and such?
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Bitching about the buyout isn't so much bitching about that little aspect, but about why an entire new contract was done at all at that time. The reality is that Gene/KSU had all the leverage. Again, the rollover thing was nonsense. Bill's employment effectively ended 1/31/18. If Gene had his guy all along, canning his ass then would've been prudent, not just saving money but also not letting 2018 and eventually losing to iowa state happen.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/78dbda889220786bec66ef4f2b455737/tenor.gif)
I don't envision any scenario in which Gene had any leverage on LHC Bill Snyder before the total circus of this season happened. I don't even think the wins and losses are what swung the pendulum but the players leaving is what did it. It was the lying empty threat of Shannon Spradling come to life but it was actually happening. Our current scholarship numbers are disastrous.
I asked the first two because of Gene's "financial parameters" comment from a day or two ago. As you know, I've always felt that it's wise to break the bank on a stud football coach because it's a great investment. I wish we'd have put it out there that KSU is interested in whipping ass at football and if you can do that, holler at us because we're paying. Gene's comment, what Klieman got, and who's known to have been considered and not considered indicate we did the opposite.
Yeah, that would have been nice, he would have had to have gotten donor assurances to make that happen though. As much as I would have loved to have him, I don't think paying Dino Babers $4.3 million and the staff another $2.7 along with about $10 million in buyouts for two staffs would be worth cost of the title IX lawsuit for taking the needed money from Olympic sports because Carl Ice didn't want to fork over the cash.
KSU had the leverage contractually. KSU's done a good job of making the contracts harder to find online, but it's on my couch next to me. You still gotta come up some time. KSU's obligation to pay Bill ended 1/31/18. In a vacuum, we had a job opening and filled it with old, declining Bill. With the option of being able to hire anyone for the job at that time, including his beloved eff head, should Gene have picked Bill AND given him a raise AND given him an extra $1m when he'd inevitably be canned?
Of course, it's not in a vacuum and Gene naturally didn't want to do a youtube with Brian Smoller to explain that Bill won't be around anymore. So practically, not nearly as much leverage as they had contractually.
Definitely would've needed the donors to be sold on investing in a Dino-or-above coaching staff. That should've been an easy sell though, right? If these people are giving millions of dollars for a part of a facility, wouldn't they see the value in giving that to a coach who will have the greatest chance of success that leads to exponential return on the initial investment that can be used to build even better facilities and such?
No, not really. If you have some completely unrealistic opportunity to hire Bob Stoops, maybe. Other than that, people are kidding themselves if they think an extra million a year was going to create so much distance between the pool of candidates we talked to versus a better group that it would become a no-brainer to open up your checkbooks. A plot of risk / reward as it pertains to spending on a personnel hire is an exponential curve, not a straight line. Invest money in facilities? That's one of the few things that is largely guaranteed to help your program over the long run. Plus, you get a brick with your name on it or a urinal named after you.
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I would enjoy to see how much Harbaugh made in his first year at Stanford and how it stacked up with other P5 coaches. Any one able to find that info?
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It was like 700k and was a major reason he was even listening about taking the ku job - Stanford is pretty cheap
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They also were completely apathetic about football at that point I believe. Still, CFB salaries have changed a lot since even then. There’s really no apples to apples comparison to be made.
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So few people seem to understand the obvious: the Chris Klieman hire actually started with the Gene Taylor hire. Taylor was hired to get Klieman, it was the plan all along. There were interviews for the window dressing of the process, but Klieman was targeted years ago. We hired Taylor so we could hire Klieman.
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So few people seem to understand the obvious: the Chris Klieman hire actually started with the Gene Taylor hire. Taylor was hired to get Klieman, it was the plan all along. There were interviews for the window dressing of the process, but Klieman was targeted years ago. We hired Taylor so we could hire Klieman.
K-State or any other P5 school didn't need Gene to get Chris. Chris needed Gene to be at K-State so he could get a P5 job.
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No, not really. If you have some completely unrealistic opportunity to hire Bob Stoops, maybe. Other than that, people are kidding themselves if they think an extra million a year was going to create so much distance between the pool of candidates we talked to versus a better group that it would become a no-brainer to open up your checkbooks. A plot of risk / reward as it pertains to spending on a personnel hire is an exponential curve, not a straight line. Invest money in facilities? That's one of the few things that is largely guaranteed to help your program over the long run. Plus, you get a brick with your name on it or a urinal named after you.
A million a year wouldn't cut it. Dino alone would've been an extra $2-3m/year and the donors we're talking about wouldn't have gone for him, for one reason or another.
It would require a pitch with the basics of "donate to our HC fund now, enjoy us whipping ass at football and observe us reaping financial benefits, be thanked by us using those benefits to build a new slightly mis-matched erector set addition to the stadium and name it after you."
The right amount of money makes any opportunity realistic. It'd have been nice to think outside the other side of the box and investigate what sort of game-changing move could be made to dominate.
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So few people seem to understand the obvious: the Chris Klieman hire actually started with the Gene Taylor hire. Taylor was hired to get Klieman, it was the plan all along. There were interviews for the window dressing of the process, but Klieman was targeted years ago. We hired Taylor so we could hire Klieman.
K-State or any other P5 school didn't need Gene to get Chris. Chris needed Gene to be at K-State so he could get a P5 job.
Maybe a little of both. Evidence certainly indicates the latter. But it also wouldn't be a stretch to think that candidate Gene touted that he could always bring in a national* champion* football coach that would be a good FIT if necessary, and KSU thought that was a good idea and/or insurance policy.
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he was probably targeted as the heir to the throne for Ferentz, we beat them to the punch stealing the 'stang
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So few people seem to understand the obvious: the Chris Klieman hire actually started with the Gene Taylor hire. Taylor was hired to get Klieman, it was the plan all along. There were interviews for the window dressing of the process, but Klieman was targeted years ago. We hired Taylor so we could hire Klieman.
Explain how that's obvious, like how does that make any sense at all? What if Matt Campbell ended up at Tennessee last year and flood aggie offered Klieman a job?
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Gene thinks his audience are all dumbasses. And he’s mostly right
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^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS.
everyone at NDSU knew Klieman was getting that job.... hell I told you guys last week! what does it matter now.
for $3 Million K State can MOVE ON.
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Hiring gene to get Klieman is maybe the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen posted on this board.
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Pretty dang dumb ww
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he was probably targeted as the heir to the throne for Ferentz, we beat them to the punch stealing the 'stang
I 100% bet gene floated this idea around a table in Iowa City.
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This seems largely irrelevant to me. Yes, the $3m to Bill is absolutely a buyoff for being “retired.” It’s also absolutely true he deserves it....and some boosters made sure that outlay wouldn’t really hurt.
Regardless, if you pay CK “only” $1.5m, he’s constantly getting asked about it for the next 6 months, and K-State gets the reputation for being cheap going into searching for staff interviews and replacing folks down the road.
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What's fishy to me is why we have so much influence from the state of Iowa :Yuck:
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if you pay CK “only” $1.5m, he’s constantly getting asked about it for the next 6 months, and K-State gets the reputation for being cheap going into searching for staff interviews and replacing folks down the road.
Our new head coach was taken from the lower division and is the lowest paid in the conference and isn't even making twice what our retired coach is. I think prospective KSU football employees have a pretty good idea how we roll.
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to purple, you mean?
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if you pay CK “only” $1.5m, he’s constantly getting asked about it for the next 6 months, and K-State gets the reputation for being cheap going into searching for staff interviews and replacing folks down the road.
Our new head coach was taken from the lower division and is the lowest paid in the conference and isn't even making twice what our retired coach is. I think prospective KSU football employees have a pretty good idea how we roll.
well i don't think we should overpay kleiman just so we don't look cheap. if we're worried about financial appearances than allow him to go out and BUY a couple of the best assistants that money can buy and show everyone that we are willing to spend money to win. don't waste it when you don't need to
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go buy off whatever assistants are getting TCU and Baylor their best recruits. Buy off whatever missouri coach is covering saint louis area.
our current coaches have shown almost no ability to recruit the level of player necessary for us to compete with OU.
i would keep a couple of them and then remake the staff with strategic recruiting areas in mind.
but i think we will see a lot of holdovers and recruiting won't change at all