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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Jerome Tang Coaches Kansas State Basketball => Topic started by: michigancat on March 24, 2018, 06:00:22 PM
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LOL at all you losers who thought this "run" meant anything. Get ready for years of bubble team mediocrity.
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loyola has a good team, michigancat. you 'taters don't seem to want to admit that.
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loyola has a good team, michigancat. you 'taters don't seem to want to admit that.
Yes, oscar can't be expected to beat two above average teams in a row
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i mean, the odds are against it.
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Getting carved up big time.
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Exactly. This - to me - isn’t so much about our players, but BW’s inability to take the team into a game like this and lead them to a win. Just the way I see it. Hope they can turn it around in the second half.
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Gene Taylor should offer the Loyola dork coach $3mil after the game and tell oscar adios.
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Gene Taylor should offer the Loyola dork coach $3mil after the game and tell oscar adios.
Stang does not f with fascists m8
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You’ve seen it though, most of the fan base and this bbs are cool with mediocrity as long as there is 1 elite 8 run per decade
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You’ve seen it though, most of the fan base and this bbs are cool with mediocrity as long as there is 1 elite 8 run per decade
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You’ve seen it though, most of the fan base and this bbs are cool with mediocrity as long as there is 1 elite 8 run per decade
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We don’t talk about frank around here
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Yeah. The team is young...so that’s good. Problem is, this coach will never leave.
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You’ve seen it though, most of the fan base and this bbs are cool with mediocrity as long as there is 1 elite 8 run per decade
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We don’t talk about frank around here
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Actually a lot of people still do, and they seemed pretty pumped about the 1 E8 per decade pace while he was coaching the KSU Cats.
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Weber gets an extension for his tourney run. And, yes, KSU gets bubble mediocrity for another five years.
Win for Oscar.
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Weber gets an extension for his tourney run. And, yes, KSU gets bubble mediocrity for another five years.
Win for Oscar.
We're really only guaranteed bubble status for one more year. After that we'll probably have a few seasons completely off the bubble. (The wrong way)
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After that we'll probably have a few seasons completely off the bubble. (The wrong way)
there's no reason to assume recruiting will drop off.
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Weber reminds me of Tubby Smith in decline.
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I am confident he will find more Browns and Stokes but I am afraid it will be all Mawiens and Stockards instead of Wades
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After that we'll probably have a few seasons completely off the bubble. (The wrong way)
there's no reason to assume recruiting will drop off.
His recruiting led to consecutive seasons missing the tournament
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His recruiting led to consecutive seasons missing the tournament
that seems to have been a fluke.
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LOL did Stokes check himself in? Brown did something like that last year against Cincy
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LOL did Stokes check himself in? Brown did something like that last year against Cincy
I believe so yes
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This thread is stupid.Without Dean we were either losing this round or the next
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63 teams end up losing in this tournament after all.
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63 teams end up losing in this tournament after all.
Some would say 67, even
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Chris Webber makes me believe. I love him.
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It still hurts.
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This thread is stupid.Without Dean we were either losing this round or the next
Have you no conception of the difference between losing this round and the next?
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https://twitter.com/iamtimeverson/status/977702639759740928
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I’m expecting this to be the thread SD melts down in, but that guy always surprises me.
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https://twitter.com/iamtimeverson/status/977702639759740928
you're goddamn right it is, tim everson. first time since '63!
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You can't condemn oscar for an Elite 8 and praise Frank. This team played with so much heart and if you can't see that then that's on you. I feel like a tuck saying that, but whatever
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You can't condemn oscar for an Elite 8 and praise Frank. This team played with so much heart and if you can't see that then that's on you. I feel like a tuck saying that, but whatever
Yes I can
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This team played rough ridin' lazy half the time, in no way did they "play with heart"
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You can't condemn oscar for an Elite 8 and praise Frank. This team played with so much heart and if you can't see that then that's on you. I feel like a tuck saying that, but whatever
Butler was a much tougher draw than Loyola [did you see any future NBA all stars on the Ramblers?], and the Cats didn't lose their legs in a double-overtime game. And still the Frank's team briefly had the lead with 3 to play. We were out of it from the start today.
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Frank also earned a 2 seed and didn't luck into a joke of a run
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What on earth
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I still think it would have been a good idea to post up Sneed.
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Looking forward to Weber mushing faces around here.
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I wasn't to happy about trying to post up Mawein early on.
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I still think it would have been a good idea to post up Sneed.
i think they should have ran the pick and fade for sneed until loyola proved they could stop it.
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I still think it would have been a good idea to post up Sneed.
i think they should have ran the pick and fade for sneed until loyola proved they could stop it.
Maybe they took away the look? But you're right I don't remember it after his second early three
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kstate ran it a few more times and sneed turned down the look, which is fine.
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Frank also earned a 2 seed and didn't luck into a joke of a run
Frank didn't realize he wasn't running an offense until Bobby Knight called him out on national tv. Luckily, Brad Underwood had one and installed it mid season. I thought Frank was great at some things and suffered elsewhere. Coach W is a stronger tactician, weaker recruiter.
Hopefully, the exposure will open some recruiting doors. Not many coaches would trust the word of a player regarding an injury vs a final. Says a lot about Webers integrity.
I'd argue oscar is a better recruiter.
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Frank also earned a 2 seed and didn't luck into a joke of a run
Frank didn't realize he wasn't running an offense until Bobby Knight called him out on national tv. Luckily, Brad Underwood had one and installed it mid season. I thought Frank was great at some things and suffered elsewhere. Coach W is a stronger tactician, weaker recruiter.
Hopefully, the exposure will open some recruiting doors. Not many coaches would trust the word of a player regarding an injury vs a final. Says a lot about Webers integrity.
I'd argue oscar is a better recruiter.
I would also argue this
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Yea, Frank’s Magic was the same as Huggie’s. You get 100% effort out of your players at all times, which is not an easy thing to do when you’re talking about college kids.
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Yea, Frank’s Magic was the same as Huggie’s. You get 100% effort out of your players at all times, which is not an easy thing to do when you’re talking about college kids.
Yep
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Frank recruited better players than oscar has but it’s pretty close
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Oscar recruits better guards -- of late, anyway --; Frank was better at recruiting a team.
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Angel, Denis, Pullen are all better than anyone oscar has recruited at the guard position. Frank got multiple 5 star players oscar has none. oscar has recruited wings better for sure though.
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Sucks to lose when you are so close. I'm glad some of you guys can enjoy it though. Go Cats. Or not.
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Sucks to lose when you are so close. I'm glad some of you guys can enjoy it though. Go Cats. Or not.
No one enjoyed that performance.
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oscar has recruited wings better for sure though.
we joke about it, but it's probably not a joke - he probably doesn't like "true" point guards.
obviously, martin's offense demanded a point.
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Sucks to lose when you are so close. I'm glad some of you guys can enjoy it though. Go Cats. Or not.
No one enjoyed that performance.
false. the first half was fantastic.
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I mean honestly hot rod and dom and jamsam are equal to or better than Westicles and x or whatever wing we compare them to. JO/CK is better than any 5 oscar has recruited. The 4 spot probably goes to oscar.
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You’ve seen it though, most of the fan base and this bbs are cool with mediocrity as long as there is 1 elite 8 run per decade
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LOL, there is. So dumb.
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Weber reminds me of Tubby Smith in decline.
:ROFL:
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Good grief Rusty. Not your best day on the message boards.
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Yea, Frank’s Magic was the same as Huggie’s. You get 100% effort out of your players at all times, which is not an easy thing to do when you’re talking about college kids.
KSU Frank did that. USC Frank had a rough year.
I haven’t followed them for obvious reasons, but just getting 100% from your guys doesn’t mean you’re gonna win a game.
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LOL did Stokes check himself in? Brown did something like that last year against Cincy
I believe so yes
No he didn't, you can see the hand of an assistant giving him a shove. Assistants send players in before the coach wants said player in relatively frequently. oscar wanted him in after the ball was inbounded on the made free throw, not before, that is a common mistake.
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Yea, Frank’s Magic was the same as Huggie’s. You get 100% effort out of your players at all times, which is not an easy thing to do when you’re talking about college kids.
KSU Frank did that. USC Frank had a rough year.
I haven’t followed them for obvious reasons, but just getting 100% from your guys doesn’t mean you’re gonna win a game.
they played hard.
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Frank also earned a 2 seed and didn't luck into a joke of a run
Frank didn't realize he wasn't running an offense until Bobby Knight called him out on national tv. Luckily, Brad Underwood had one and installed it mid season. I thought Frank was great at some things and suffered elsewhere. Coach W is a stronger tactician, weaker recruiter.
Wrong, all of it.
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25-12 (10-8) with an Elite 8 appearance is better than all but one of Frank's seasons. what are we even doing if we can't say this was a good season
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Yea, Frank’s Magic was the same as Huggie’s. You get 100% effort out of your players at all times, which is not an easy thing to do when you’re talking about college kids.
Yep
Frank's teams had plenty of dogs too, so did Huggins. If you have a narrative you can rationalize oscar's dogs as lack of effort while completely dismissing the possibility of the other two.
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Frank recruited better players than oscar has but it’s pretty close
It won't be close after the '19 class, probably this one if he gets Trice and Smith.
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[replying two comments up] Obviously that’s true. gE for sure seems to talk about Frank now the same way you’d talk about a dead guy at a funeral. But I think it’s still pretty clear that Frank’s strengths as a coach are quite a bit different than Weber’s.
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25-12 (10-8) with an Elite 8 appearance is better than all but one of Frank's seasons.
the only way you can say that is if you value tournament success over all other variables. which is fine if you do, but you may as well just say it.
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I mean honestly hot rod and dom and jamsam are equal to or better than Westicles and x or whatever wing we compare them to. JO/CK is better than any 5 oscar has recruited. The 4 spot probably goes to oscar.
The 5 has been an absolute horror show for oscar. He's only recruited one capable 5 and it was the first one he brought on.
I prefer Barry and Marcus to Angel, btw.
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I think most people only care about (1) tournament success, and (2) conference championships. Staying competitive consistently in both of those was by far my favorite thing about Frank. But when you look at pure results on those two metrics, Weber stacks up as good if not better.
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25-12 (10-8) with an Elite 8 appearance is better than all but one of Frank's seasons.
the only way you can say that is if you value tournament success over all other variables. which is fine if you do, but you may as well just say it.
I have long been on record that tournament runs are poor ways to evaluate a coach's performance. How you performance in conference shows how well you're doing.
That isn't to say tourney runs aren't fun, but consistent high conference finishes ultimately lead to more fun tourney runs.
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winning conference games is as fun as winning tournament games, imo. or at least it was when we played mostly legacy big 8 teams.
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25-12 (10-8) with an Elite 8 appearance is better than all but one of Frank's seasons.
the only way you can say that is if you value tournament success over all other variables. which is fine if you do, but you may as well just say it.
There's a higher value placed on tournament success than what needs to be, absolutely. The entire sport is structured around winning in March though, it's literally the point of all of this. If you want to play it your way, it definitely seems you're not placing the proper weight on the conference championship season.
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If you want to play it your way, it definitely seems you're not placing the proper weight on the conference championship season.
i was responding to the statement about this season, not weber's entire record at kstate. i value conference record (don't care if you get a hypothetical championship or not). the 12-4 season was a very accomplished season.
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sorry, 14-4.
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There's a higher value placed on tournament success than what needs to be, absolutely. The entire sport is structured around winning in March though, it's literally the point of all of this. If you want to play it your way, it definitely seems you're not placing the proper weight on the conference championship season.
clearly, he gets no credit for that because he didn't recruit a single contributor to that team.
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I think it’s totally fair to put an asterisk on that season, but the fact is Frank never got his players to that point and Weber did.
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I think it’s totally fair to put an asterisk on that season, but the fact is Frank never got his players to that point and Weber did.
I mean weber never got his players to that point either
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There's a higher value placed on tournament success than what needs to be, absolutely. The entire sport is structured around winning in March though, it's literally the point of all of this. If you want to play it your way, it definitely seems you're not placing the proper weight on the conference championship season.
clearly, he gets no credit for that because he didn't recruit a single contributor to that team.
Frank wasn't going to get what was needed from any of the key pieces, outside of perhaps Angel and JO, to win a conference championship. He recruited that team but it wasn't his team.
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Thus the asterisk. My point is that if you put yourself in mean Gene’s shoes today, where exactly is the evidence that you could get a coach who would give you better results than Weber has the last 5 years?
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There's a higher value placed on tournament success than what needs to be, absolutely. The entire sport is structured around winning in March though, it's literally the point of all of this. If you want to play it your way, it definitely seems you're not placing the proper weight on the conference championship season.
clearly, he gets no credit for that because he didn't recruit a single contributor to that team.
Frank wasn't going to get what was needed from any of the key pieces, outside of perhaps Angel and JO, to win a conference championship. He recruited that team but it wasn't his team.
Perhaps. At the same time, oscar wasn't going to recruit that team on his own, either.
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Agreed
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Thus the asterisk. My point is that if you put yourself in mean Gene’s shoes today, where exactly is the evidence that you could get a coach who would give you better results than Weber has the last 5 years?
It's easy to think Frank's five years were better than oscar's six overall. Like, not hard at all.
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My point is that if you put yourself in mean Gene’s shoes today, where exactly is the evidence that you could get a coach who would give you better results than Weber has the last 5 years?
Found it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/defiant-and-wounded-rick-pitino-insists-he-did-nothing-wrong--and-wants-back-in/2018/03/21/681d3616-2c6d-11e8-8688-e053ba58f1e4_story.html
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My point is that if you put yourself in mean Gene’s shoes today, where exactly is the evidence that you could get a coach who would give you better results than Weber has the last 5 years?
Found it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/defiant-and-wounded-rick-pitino-insists-he-did-nothing-wrong--and-wants-back-in/2018/03/21/681d3616-2c6d-11e8-8688-e053ba58f1e4_story.html
In. Where do I send my kids’ college money?
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My point is that if you put yourself in mean Gene’s shoes today, where exactly is the evidence that you could get a coach who would give you better results than Weber has the last 5 years?
Found it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/defiant-and-wounded-rick-pitino-insists-he-did-nothing-wrong--and-wants-back-in/2018/03/21/681d3616-2c6d-11e8-8688-e053ba58f1e4_story.html
lol. He won't get hired, not because he got into trouble with the NCAA, but because there's no chance he's going to be able to get a top 150 ever again.
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It took a lot of courage and compassion to keep Wade on the bench.
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It took a lot of courage and compassion to keep Wade on the bench.
Jesus Christ
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most coaches would have taken a cattle prod to him, but not weber.
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Didn't look ready to play.
Conditioning and mental toughness always an issue with oscar. No energy outside of one run in the second half.
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Didn't look ready to play.
Conditioning and mental toughness always an issue with oscar. No energy outside of one run in the second half.
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Hahahahahahaha, this guy.
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Frank also earned a 2 seed and didn't luck into a joke of a run
Frank didn't realize he wasn't running an offense until Bobby Knight called him out on national tv. Luckily, Brad Underwood had one and installed it mid season. I thought Frank was great at some things and suffered elsewhere. Coach W is a stronger tactician, weaker recruiter.
Hopefully, the exposure will open some recruiting doors. Not many coaches would trust the word of a player regarding an injury vs a final 4. Says a lot about Webers integrity.
Are you insinuating that oscar's wait until 12 on the clock then set a half assed pick and roll is some sort of enlightened offensive set?
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Thus the asterisk. My point is that if you put yourself in mean Gene’s shoes today, where exactly is the evidence that you could get a coach who would give you better results than Weber has the last 5 years?
It's easy to think Frank's five years were better than oscar's six overall. Like, not hard at all.
Frank ain’t walking back through that door, and if Pitino really is clean he’d jump ship by year 2-3.
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25-12 (10-8) with an Elite 8 appearance is better than all but one of Frank's seasons.
the only way you can say that is if you value tournament success over all other variables. which is fine if you do, but you may as well just say it.
I have long been on record that tournament runs are poor ways to evaluate a coach's performance. How you performance in conference shows how well you're doing.
That isn't to say tourney runs aren't fun, but consistent high conference finishes ultimately lead to more fun tourney runs.
We should switch conferences, or at least invite nu and cu back. Like cutting poverty by redefining what poverty means.
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25-12 (10-8) with adn Elite 8 appearance is better than all but one of Frank's seasons. what are we even doing if we can't say this was a good season
This.
Even with 23 wins and a loss to Virginia, it's the 2nd best season IMO since the New Era began.
The 2011 Big12 conference was shitty as a whole compared to this season. Don't judge it solely on a 5 seed we were given. Only 4 of our 16 games in Big 12 were vs Tourney teams. We were not a top 20 team. We lost to 5th place CU all 3 times.
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I can't believe how quickly people forget how dysfunctional Frank's teams were at times. We literally installed the pin wheel offense one year.
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Amazing
https://twitter.com/DScottFritchen/status/977735056486752256?s=19
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The 2011 Big12 conference was shitty as a whole compared to this season. Don't judge it solely on a 5 seed we were given. Only 4 of our 16 games in Big 12 were vs Tourney teams. We were not a top 20 team. We lost to 5th place CU all 3 times.
that team finished #32 in KenPom, this team finished #42. FWIW
also check your stats
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The 2011 Big12 conference was shitty as a whole compared to this season. Don't judge it solely on a 5 seed we were given. Only 4 of our 16 games in Big 12 were vs Tourney teams. We were not a top 20 team. We lost to 5th place CU all 3 times.
that team finished #32 in KenPom, this team finished #42. FWIW
also check your stats
Great. KenPom had that team higer. Is that your 100% reasoning why it's better.
That's like , Joe Smith, exclusively saying this was better than 2011 because Elite 8 vs Rd of 32
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FSD how come the 71-72 cats elite eight team won 13% more games than the 17-18 cats and still fell 2 short of the elusive 25 win mark?
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FSD how come the 71-72 cats elite eight team won 13% more games than the 17-18 cats and still fell 2 short of the elusive 25 win mark?
lack of effort.
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Holy crap the 76-77 team fell just short at 24 despite winning at a higher clip than 17-18!
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FSD how come the 71-72 cats elite eight team won 13% more games than the 17-18 cats and still fell 2 short of the elusive 25 win mark?
lack of effort.
More like Jack Half Hartman amirite?!
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The 2011 Big12 conference was shitty as a whole compared to this season. Don't judge it solely on a 5 seed we were given. Only 4 of our 16 games in Big 12 were vs Tourney teams. We were not a top 20 team. We lost to 5th place CU all 3 times.
that team finished #32 in KenPom, this team finished #42. FWIW
also check your stats
Great. KenPom had that team higer. Is that your 100% reasoning why it's better.
That's like , Joe Smith, exclusively saying this was better than 2011 because Elite 8 vs Rd of 32
well I wasn't making the argument that 2018 was worse than 2011, but 2011 did have a higher conference win percentage, higher conference finish, and beat better teams as well. 2011 and 2018 were really pretty similar overall if you compare season to season. You could make the argument that this season was worse than every Frank team but one if you ignore UMBC.
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since 2007, we've had a lot of kp 20, 30 and 40 seasons and those are generally pretty good little seasons. it's the 50+ seasons where people have generally been disappointed and the lone shining kp top 10 season that stick out.
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not to say that i think kp 23 team is the same as a kp 42 team, because i definitely don't. but depending on luck, your priorities and your attitude, both can be pretty easy to be happy about.
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Can you rank the teams from 2007-2008 to now in order of final kenpom ranking?
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Amazing
https://twitter.com/DScottFritchen/status/977735056486752256?s=19
Yeah, I’ve been a pretty big oscar-pologist tonight, but he better not dare wave that “total wins” stat around with the utterly crappy non-con we played which definitely cost us seeding in the tournament.
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Can you rank the teams from 2007-2008 to now in order of final kenpom ranking?
i would be delighted to do so. i'll include the underlying kenpom score, which is a better comparative measure than the rank, imo (but ordering them by rank, as requested).
2010, 6th, 25.52 - martin
2012, 23rd, 17.52 - martin
2008, 26th, 18.90 - martin
2013, 27th, 18.16 - weber
2017, 30th, 17.44 - weber
2011, 32nd, 17.42 - martin
2018, 42nd, 14.83 - weber
2014, 45th, 14.10 - weber
2009, 51st, 14.18 - martin
2016, 55th, 13.46 - weber
2007, 57th, 13.71 - huggins
2015, 81st, 8.18 - weber
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The 2011 Big12 conference was shitty as a whole compared to this season. Don't judge it solely on a 5 seed we were given. Only 4 of our 16 games in Big 12 were vs Tourney teams. We were not a top 20 team. We lost to 5th place CU all 3 times.
that team finished #32 in KenPom, this team finished #42. FWIW
also check your stats
Great. KenPom had that team higer. Is that your 100% reasoning why it's better.
That's like , Joe Smith, exclusively saying this was better than 2011 because Elite 8 vs Rd of 32
well I wasn't making the argument that 2018 was worse than 2011, but 2011 did have a higher conference win percentage, higher conference finish, and beat better teams as well. 2011 and 2018 were really pretty similar overall if you compare season to season. You could make the argument that this season was worse than every Frank team but one if you ignore UMBC.
2011 finished 4th in a much weaker league
2018 finished 4th in a strong round robin format
2011 team finished year with 23 wins (3 Q1 4 Q2 win)
2018 finished with 25 wins (6 Q1 and 5 Q2 wins)
More wins. Better wins.
You want to compare 2018 with other Frank years??
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You know who also really whipped ass along w/KSU this season? FSU and Leonard Hamilton. I can see why the nation is really impressed with what both of those squads accomplished in 17-18.
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The 2011 Big12 conference was shitty as a whole compared to this season. Don't judge it solely on a 5 seed we were given. Only 4 of our 16 games in Big 12 were vs Tourney teams. We were not a top 20 team. We lost to 5th place CU all 3 times.
that team finished #32 in KenPom, this team finished #42. FWIW
also check your stats
Great. KenPom had that team higer. Is that your 100% reasoning why it's better.
That's like , Joe Smith, exclusively saying this was better than 2011 because Elite 8 vs Rd of 32
well I wasn't making the argument that 2018 was worse than 2011, but 2011 did have a higher conference win percentage, higher conference finish, and beat better teams as well. 2011 and 2018 were really pretty similar overall if you compare season to season. You could make the argument that this season was worse than every Frank team but one if you ignore UMBC.
2011 finished 4th in a much weaker league
2018 finished 4th in a strong round robin format
2011 team finished year with 23 wins (3 Q1 4 Q2 win)
2018 finished with 25 wins (6 Q1 and 5 Q2 wins)
More wins. Better wins.
You want to compare 2018 with other Frank years??
2011 had 5 Q1 wins (Gonzaga, @UT, KU, USU, @WSU), 2 of which were more difficult than any win on this year's team. This year's team didn't have a loss as bad as away at OSU in 2011, although maybe Tulsa was worse.
And come on, total wins? 2011 played Gonzaga, Duke, Florida, and UNLV in the OOC.
In all seriousness, it's probably a coin flip between the two seasons. (but please don't try to make your point by making up stats or citing incredibly dumb ones)
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RealTimeRPI and WarrenNolan were almost identical on RPI rankings. So I had at Wsu as 82 (a Q2) and Zags as 56 on neutral (Q2 also)
Even if you have both of them Q1....
It's 5/2 (2011) vs 6/5 (2018) on Q1/Q2.
2011 had a lot of non important, non qualified wins.
2018 team won 4 neutral court games in March, not 1 like 2011 (B12/NCAA)
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i don't want to deign to look at rpi's, so from kp, 2011 was better in "a" games, 2018 better in "b" games.
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2011 had a lot of non important, non qualified wins.
2018 team won 4 neutral court games in March, not 1 like 2011 (B12/NCAA)
Good grief
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2011 had a lot of non important, non qualified wins.
2018 team won 4 neutral court games in March, not 1 like 2011 (B12/NCAA)
2011 beat loyola-chicago, 2018 didn't.
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I wanted to wait until I cooled off before I posted anything. I completely agree with this thread title. Yes, it was a successful season. Yes, we had an easy road and would have gotten crushed had we played Virginia. Yes, we made the elite 8 and I was on board.
All of that stated, oscar still sucks. This doesn’t change my perception of him at all. One year doesn’t change who he is, a weird little eff face with a scratchy voice and money stealing dick. I’m more optimistic for next than I have ever been with oscar but my opinion of him has not changed.
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he’s won a league title, got to an elite 8, made the tourney 4/6 and very likely 5/7. He’s recruiting guys good enough to play in the NBA. If you don’t like him fine, he’s not very likable, but to say he sucks is hilarious and just not true.
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Claws didn't play our last 5 games.
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I can say whatever I want because you know what, it’s my rough ridin' opinion. oscar does suck.
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I think this board unduly prejudices and shapes malleable weak minds, like TBT's. If this was a KKK/nazi board (and I'm not saying it may not be), he'd be running around in a white hood screaming hail hitler.
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Meh. I don't think he sucks. He's a dork, but I think he and his staff are doing ok at this point.
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We are set up for a great year next season but I will be completely not shocked if/when it essentially exactly the same other than we get bounced early in the 12-4 game.
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Meh. I don't think he sucks. He's a dork, but I think he and his staff are doing ok at this point.
It's definitely more accurate to say "oscar does ok" than to say he sucks. But the overall point of this thread is that these last four games have told us nothing new about oscar as a coach, good or bad. He's the same boring old ok coach he's always been.
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please change thread title to oscar is still ok
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please change thread title to oscar is still ok
No
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You dirty rotten SOB
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"oscar has never won a tournament game"
"oscar has never got to the round of 32"
"oscar's kenpom finishes haven't been great."
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This tournament was a fluke.
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And South Carolina’s wasn’t?
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the whole knock on oscar was that he can’t win tournament games, then he wins 3 of them in one year and the narrative becomes it was a fluke.
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the whole knock on oscar was that he can’t win tournament games, then he wins 3 of them in one year and the narrative becomes it was a fluke.
That wasn't the whole knock on oscar.
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And South Carolina’s wasn’t?
Look who they beat and compare it to who oscar beat
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the whole knock on oscar was that he can’t win tournament games, then he wins 3 of them in one year and the narrative becomes it was a fluke.
That wasn't the whole knock on oscar.
What else?
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There's literally nothing he could do to convince some of these fellas, short of winning the tournament (obv winning the big12 wasn't enough).
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the whole knock on oscar was that he can’t win tournament games, then he wins 3 of them in one year and the narrative becomes it was a fluke.
That wasn't the whole knock on oscar.
What else?
Do you honestly think the lack of tournament wins was his only fault?
He's just an average coach. We've been a bubble team or worse for five straight seasons. Next year we should be safely in the tournament, but we won't contend for a conference title and probably never will again with oscar. Ugly offense, his players play scared half the time, he recruits great athletes but doesn't let them run, and he needs to modernize his defensive strategy to give up fewer threes. Along with the impossible to quantify inconsistent effort.
He's just ok overall and that's definitely enough to coach at KSU forever but that doesn't mean I need to like his style or think a different coach couldn't do better.
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There's literally nothing he could do to convince some of these fellas, short of winning the tournament (obv winning the big12 wasn't enough).
Do you think oscar will win the Big 12 again?
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the whole knock on oscar was that he can’t win tournament games, then he wins 3 of them in one year and the narrative becomes it was a fluke.
Earning a 9 seed and then playing the same competition a 1 seed would play all the way to the elite 8 is definitely a fluke.
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No I see what they’re saying WW. These guys don’t just want tournament wins, they want to win the right way. True KSU fans.
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No I see what they’re saying WW. These guys don’t just want tournament wins, they want to win the right way. True KSU fans.
Being able to somehow, some way, beat an 11 seed with a final 4 appearance on the line would have been nice.
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No I see what they’re saying WW. These guys don’t just want tournament wins, they want to win the right way. True KSU fans.
I've always said tournament runs are poor ways to evaluate coaches.
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
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No I see what they’re saying WW. These guys don’t just want tournament wins, they want to win the right way. True KSU fans.
I've always said tournament runs are poor ways to evaluate coaches.
Final fours and elite 8s are
Playing to seed more often than not is fair
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the whole knock on oscar was that he can’t win tournament games, then he wins 3 of them in one year and the narrative becomes it was a fluke.
Earning a 9 seed and then playing the same competition a 1 seed would play all the way to the elite 8 is definitely a fluke.
So is losing to la salle as a 3 seed in the sprint center. The tournament is a single elimination crap shoot. Most (all?) of the HBIQ posters on this blog site have brought up how you perform in your conference as the most accurate measure of success. He has been like maybe a few games above .500 in conference in 6 years so you can certainly say that’s not up to your standards if you wish.
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
All his teams were good enough to make this run if it had been presented. Except maybe 2016.
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
He had a meaningful run, but there is no reason for optimism there will be more elite 8 runs unless you think he's going to start consistently earning 1 or 2 seeds.
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the whole knock on oscar was that he can’t win tournament games, then he wins 3 of them in one year and the narrative becomes it was a fluke.
Earning a 9 seed and then playing the same competition a 1 seed would play all the way to the elite 8 is definitely a fluke.
So is losing to la salle as a 3 seed in the sprint center. The tournament is a single elimination crap shoot. Most (all?) of the HBIQ posters on this blog site have brought up how you perform in your conference as the most accurate measure of success. He has been like maybe a few games above .500 in conference in 6 years so you can certainly say that’s not up to your standards if you wish.
Absolutely that loss was a fluke. If he'd had 3 seeds consistently I'd have expected him to make the sweet 16 a couple times.
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No I see what they’re saying WW. These guys don’t just want tournament wins, they want to win the right way. True KSU fans.
Being able to somehow, some way, beat an 11 seed with a final 4 appearance on the line would have been nice.
It would have been fantastic. It just turns out to be pretty hard to win consecutive games against good competition regardless of whether you’re playing #20 in the country or #40.
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
He had a meaningful run, but there is no reason for optimism there will be more elite 8 runs unless you think he's going to start consistently earning 1 or 2 seeds.
i think we can be in the 2-4 seed range next year and will be disappointed if we're not.
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
He had a meaningful run, but there is no reason for optimism there will be more elite 8 runs unless you think he's going to start consistently earning 1 or 2 seeds.
i think we can be in the 2-4 seed range next year and will be disappointed if we're not.
Yikes
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
He had a meaningful run, but there is no reason for optimism there will be more elite 8 runs unless you think he's going to start consistently earning 1 or 2 seeds.
i think we can be in the 2-4 seed range next year and will be disappointed if we're not.
Yikes
I suspect that would require finishing at least third in the conference and being flawless in a very week non-con. Is that the expectation that any of you have for next year? Not judging one way or the other, just want to know if that’s what folks are expecting...
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Top three
Sweet sixteen
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
He had a meaningful run, but there is no reason for optimism there will be more elite 8 runs unless you think he's going to start consistently earning 1 or 2 seeds.
i think we can be in the 2-4 seed range next year and will be disappointed if we're not.
Yikes
I suspect that would require finishing at least third in the conference and being flawless in a very week non-con. Is that the expectation that any of you have for next year? Not judging one way or the other, just want to know if that’s what folks are expecting...
Well West Virginia finished third with a great OOC and was a 5 this year. I'd expect us to be about a 6 seed next year.
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"oscar has never won a tournament game"
"oscar has never got to the round of 32"
"oscar's kenpom finishes haven't been great."
oscar has never made an Elite 8 run by beating top seeds.
lololol
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
He had a meaningful run, but there is no reason for optimism there will be more elite 8 runs unless you think he's going to start consistently earning 1 or 2 seeds.
i think we can be in the 2-4 seed range next year and will be disappointed if we're not.
Yikes
I suspect that would require finishing at least third in the conference and being flawless in a very week non-con. Is that the expectation that any of you have for next year? Not judging one way or the other, just want to know if that’s what folks are expecting...
Well West Virginia finished third with a great OOC and was a 5 this year. I'd expect us to be about a 6 seed next year.
So, with our weak non-con, looks like we would need top 2 to be certain, or maybe top 3 and a final game conference tournament run (might require a conf tourney title).
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
He had a meaningful run, but there is no reason for optimism there will be more elite 8 runs unless you think he's going to start consistently earning 1 or 2 seeds.
i think we can be in the 2-4 seed range next year and will be disappointed if we're not.
Yikes
I suspect that would require finishing at least third in the conference and being flawless in a very week non-con. Is that the expectation that any of you have for next year? Not judging one way or the other, just want to know if that’s what folks are expecting...
Well West Virginia finished third with a great OOC and was a 5 this year. I'd expect us to be about a 6 seed next year.
So, with our weak non-con, looks like we would need top 2 to be certain, or maybe top 3 and a final game conference tournament run (might require a conf tourney title).
That's my guess. Depends on what the wins and losses are.
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How many of the good seeds (1-4? 5? 6?) this season earned that via a natural progression from the prior year(s) of the sort optimistic KSU fans envision, i.e. being at the top of the middle of the pack of their conference, slightly better than a bubble team, and returning all their players who'll naturally all improve?
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https://twitter.com/NicoleAuerbach/status/972973303576047617
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How many of the good seeds (1-4? 5? 6?) this season earned that via a natural progression from the prior year(s) of the sort optimistic KSU fans envision, i.e. being at the top of the middle of the pack of their conference, slightly better than a bubble team, and returning all their players who'll naturally all improve?
Xavier or Purdue? Of course Purdue was pretty good last year
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We also need to look for top seed teams we can supplant - those who'll lose players or not have enough improvement in existing players and also not replace them w/anyone adequate.
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PROGRAM WINS PCT
1 Kansas Jayhawks 85 79%
2 West Virginia Mountaineers 62 57%
3 Oklahoma Sooners 60 56%
4 Iowa State Cyclones 60 56%
5 Baylor Bears 59 55%
6 Kansas State Wildcats 55 51%
7 Texas Longhorns 49 45%
8 Oklahoma State Cowboys 49 45%
9 Texas Tech Red Raiders 38 35%
10 TCU Horned Frogs 23 21%
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im leaving the formatting for deserved humiliation, but the results are in. We are the 6th best program in the last 6 years. Thread title is accurate.
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Trailing two (three?) HOF coaches +1 who jumped to the NBA. Anyone know the relative position from Frank’s years here? I’m guessing we were 4 or 5 instead of 6? Not a whole lot separating the top teams not named KU.
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took the wind out of my sails too bud, but the numbers are what they are.
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he is what he is
that being said i am glad that i don't hae to hear any more media types try to mush me for a really pedestrian 3 game winning streak
E8 was pretty sweet tho
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Trailing two (three?) HOF coaches +1 who jumped to the NBA. Anyone know the relative position from Frank’s years here? I’m guessing we were 4 or 5 instead of 6? Not a whole lot separating the top teams not named KU.
07-08: 3rd out of 12
08-09: 4th out of 12
09-10: 2nd out of 12
10-11: 4th out of 12
11-12: 5th out of 10
12-13: 2nd out of 10
13-14: 5th out of 10
14-15: 8th out of 10 (w)
15-16: 8th out of 10 (w)
16-17: 6th out of 10
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oscar beat a 5 seed, and no one will ever be able to take that away from him.
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oscar beat a 5 seed, and no one will ever be able to take that away from him.
plus the bonus points of bringing "the handshake" great joy
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It (again) feels like people are going to great lengths to quantitatively split hairs about why they don't like oscar when they could instead just state the arbitrary reason of their choice. It's ultimately all just a matter of personal preference.
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Trailing two (three?) HOF coaches +1 who jumped to the NBA. Anyone know the relative position from Frank’s years here? I’m guessing we were 4 or 5 instead of 6? Not a whole lot separating the top teams not named KU.
07-08: 3rd out of 12
08-09: 4th out of 12
09-10: 2nd out of 12
10-11: 4th out of 12
11-12: 5th out of 10
12-13: 2nd out of 10
13-14: 5th out of 10
14-15: 8th out of 10 (w)
15-16: 8th out of 10 (w)
16-17: 6th out of 10
Would love to have seen some more data for Frank after round robin play started, but no doubt he was able to maintain a higher level of play. Still kind of frustrating to come out of it with zero championships.
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FWIW - I think those types of finishes (consistently top 5) are exactly what we should be expecting. Yes, Weber was given a mulligan by most (including me) when the Foster team blew up.
You’d be hard pressed to find a non bluest of blue blood who doesn’t have a similar couple bad years over a 12 year stretch. I don’t think oscar would be given another pass if it happened again.
Leading up to this year, his lack of success was frustrating but kind of like Snyder’s bowlgame record, not really explainable. The fact we got some good draws this year is just the ball bouncing the other way.
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oscar beat a 5 seed, and no one will ever be able to take that away from him.
An oddly smug comment considering it hasn’t been accomplished by a kstate basketball team since 1988
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It (again) feels like people are going to great lengths to quantitatively split hairs about why they don't like oscar when they could instead just state the arbitrary reason of their choice. It's ultimately all just a matter of personal preference.
Michigancat has been annoyingly consistent in his dislike and it is pretty hard to argue against him because the numbers back it up.
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It (again) feels like people are going to great lengths to quantitatively split hairs about why they don't like oscar when they could instead just state the arbitrary reason of their choice. It's ultimately all just a matter of personal preference.
Of course personal preference is definitely a big part of it. I don't like his brand of basketball and I would prefer better teams.
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Rename this thread ‘we are ok with mediocrity forever cuz 1 elite 8 run’
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mediocre is average, we are actually below that line slightly for the duration of oscar. Trendline is moving towards above average tho.
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It (again) feels like people are going to great lengths to quantitatively split hairs about why they don't like oscar when they could instead just state the arbitrary reason of their choice. It's ultimately all just a matter of personal preference.
Of course personal preference is definitely a big part of it. I don't like his brand of basketball and I would prefer better teams.
There's some objectively knowable conclusion being argued here? What is it? A lot of people don't care at all about how the basketball team performs.
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michigancat, i don't think your argument is very convincing. i don't know how you managed to convince wetwillie.
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we should have lost to umbc. climbing that mountain and oscar planting his flag atop its peak was incredible (for some people).
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michigancat, i don't think your argument is very convincing. i don't know how you managed to convince wetwillie.
I mean really my only argument is that we'll rarely be more than a bubble team with oscar and these four games do not change that.
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Only complete idiots thought we were on the bubble on selection Sunday this year.
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michigancat, i don't think your argument is very convincing. i don't know how you managed to convince wetwillie.
You are the OG conference record is the best indicator of program health sir.
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Only complete idiots thought we were on the bubble on selection Sunday this year.
slightly better than a bubble team!
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It (again) feels like people are going to great lengths to quantitatively split hairs about why they don't like oscar when they could instead just state the arbitrary reason of their choice. It's ultimately all just a matter of personal preference.
Of course personal preference is definitely a big part of it. I don't like his brand of basketball and I would prefer better teams.
There's some objectively knowable conclusion being argued here? What is it? A lot of people don't care at all about how the basketball team performs.
I just clearly stated how the basketball team performs and the results are worse than average. I still like oscar.
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Only complete idiots thought we were on the bubble on selection Sunday this year.
Making the tournament was certainly in doubt before the Baylor game in March. To me, that makes us a "bubble team" even though they were safe selection Sunday.
There's always a huge glut of teams that are all about the same quality in that 30-50 range and that is oscar's wheelhouse. <--- more precise than "bubble team"
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michigancat, i don't think your argument is very convincing. i don't know how you managed to convince wetwillie.
You are the OG conference record is the best indicator of program health sir.
the trend is improving from what seems to have been a fluke season and it's relevant to consider how strong the conference has been recently. if you want to say he's been very .500y in the best conference in the country, that's fine, but that doesn't add up to an average coach.
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michigancat, i don't think your argument is very convincing. i don't know how you managed to convince wetwillie.
You are the OG conference record is the best indicator of program health sir.
the trend is improving from what seems to have been a fluke season and it's relevant to consider how strong the conference has been recently. if you want to say he's been very .500y in the best conference in the country, that's fine, but that doesn't add up to an average coach.
Some might say that's average for a big 12 coach.
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michigancat, i don't think your argument is very convincing. i don't know how you managed to convince wetwillie.
You are the OG conference record is the best indicator of program health sir.
the trend is improving from what seems to have been a fluke season and it's relevant to consider how strong the conference has been recently. if you want to say he's been very .500y in the best conference in the country, that's fine, but that doesn't add up to an average coach.
Throwing out best conference in the country pretty liberally there big fella
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also, i mentioned conference record as the metric for how satisfying/accomplished i consider a season to have been. for the quality of a team or program, i'd advocate using the kenpom score.
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Some might say that's average for a big 12 coach.
sure.
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Throwing out best conference in the country pretty liberally there big fella
it's been the kp #1 conference for the last five years straight.
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That’s a lot of straight years, maybe a coefficient needs to be applied.
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LOL at all you losers who thought this "run" meant anything. Get ready for years of bubble team mediocrity.
8 pages late...agreed
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I don’t think oscar will ever put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at winning the Big 12, or to put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at a deep tournament run. A tournament run could happen with a lot of crazy luck, but it’s not realistic to think that will happen.
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I can't figure out why every media honk can't get enough of telling k-state fans how good oscar is and how we should be satisfied?
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I don’t think oscar will ever put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at winning the Big 12, or to put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at a deep tournament run. A tournament run could happen with a lot of crazy luck, but it’s not realistic to think that will happen.
Next year's team will have a realistic shot at both a big 12 title and a deep tourney run.
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I don’t think oscar will ever put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at winning the Big 12, or to put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at a deep tournament run. A tournament run could happen with a lot of crazy luck, but it’s not realistic to think that will happen.
Next year's team will have a realistic shot at both a big 12 title and a deep tourney run.
I don’t see it.
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I don’t think oscar will ever put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at winning the Big 12, or to put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at a deep tournament run. A tournament run could happen with a lot of crazy luck, but it’s not realistic to think that will happen.
I agree. No chance of winning the Big 12 til next year. We're the last team in the Big 12 to tie Kansas. Two pre season all league performers coming back and all other players from an elite 8 squad.
Weber and all the players plus some additions will be back in spite of whining by those with low bbiq.
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next year’s team = this year’s team
limited low post presence and completely dependent upon outside shooting
we won’t shoot the ball incrementally better than we did this year
i expect a very similar record with less of a tournament run
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I don’t think oscar will ever put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at winning the Big 12, or to put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at a deep tournament run.
This year wasn't a deep tournament run? We're final four or bust now?
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I don’t think oscar will ever put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at winning the Big 12, or to put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at a deep tournament run.
This year wasn't a deep tournament run? We're final four or bust now?
This year was a deep tournament run. We didn’t have a realistic shot at it going in, though. The stars just aligned to give us an easier path to the final 4 than any other team, which is very unusual for a 9 seed.
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I wanted to wait until I cooled off before I posted anything. I completely agree with this thread title. Yes, it was a successful season. Yes, we had an easy road and would have gotten crushed had we played Virginia. Yes, we made the elite 8 and I was on board.
All of that stated, oscar still sucks. This doesn’t change my perception of him at all. One year doesn’t change who he is, a weird little eff face with a scratchy voice and money stealing dick. I’m more optimistic for next than I have ever been with oscar but my opinion of him has not changed.
(https://www.picgifs.com/glitter-gifs/f/flip-flops/picgifs-flip-flops-338507.gif)
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Meh. I don't think he sucks. He's a dork, but I think he and his staff are doing ok at this point.
It's definitely more accurate to say "oscar does ok" than to say he sucks. But the overall point of this thread is that these last four games have told us nothing new about oscar as a coach, good or bad. He's the same boring old ok coach he's always been.
The two primary criticisms of oscar, even earlier this season, was that he didn't win in the tournament and he and his teams were awful in close games. Both of those things completely melted away this season, one of them was rationalized, the other completely ignored.
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i've been very very anti-oscar but i have to say i'm impressed at the ability of some of you to stick to it after an elite eight with our best player hurt and everyone returning for next year.
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The criticisms of oscar can be boiled down to this:
"But, [poop comes out of mouth]"
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There's literally nothing he could do to convince some of these fellas, short of winning the tournament (obv winning the big12 wasn't enough).
Do you think oscar will win the Big 12 again?
I do. Take away year one and the program accomplishments and his recruiting have improved. Looking at his '19 targets leads me to believe that will continue. I would like to see him hire an assistant who can recruit and or develop bigs.
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Meh. I don't think he sucks. He's a dork, but I think he and his staff are doing ok at this point.
It's definitely more accurate to say "oscar does ok" than to say he sucks. But the overall point of this thread is that these last four games have told us nothing new about oscar as a coach, good or bad. He's the same boring old ok coach he's always been.
The two primary criticisms of oscar, even earlier this season, was that he didn't win in the tournament and he and his teams were awful in close games. Both of those things completely melted away this season, one of them was rationalized, the other completely ignored.
those weren't mine, at all.
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the whole knock on oscar was that he can’t win tournament games, then he wins 3 of them in one year and the narrative becomes it was a fluke.
Earning a 9 seed and then playing the same competition a 1 seed would play all the way to the elite 8 is definitely a fluke.
So is losing to la salle as a 3 seed in the sprint center. The tournament is a single elimination crap shoot. Most (all?) of the HBIQ posters on this blog site have brought up how you perform in your conference as the most accurate measure of success. He has been like maybe a few games above .500 in conference in 6 years so you can certainly say that’s not up to your standards if you wish.
Absolutely that loss was a fluke. If he'd had 3 seeds consistently I'd have expected him to make the sweet 16 a couple times.
If he got another one next year but didn't make the second weekend it feels like two top three seeds in 7 years wouldn't be enough for you.
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it was a 4 seed in '13, fwiw
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
He had a meaningful run, but there is no reason for optimism there will be more elite 8 runs unless you think he's going to start consistently earning 1 or 2 seeds.
Did you lodge this same complaint when Frank was here?
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how people don't care if we even win a single game in the tournament is beyond me.
Yeah, this.
Making tourney runs is great. See 2010.
Of course it's great. But coaches shouldn't be judged for their performance in a single elimination tournament. If oscar is getting us into the tournament every year, he's doing fine, and anything beyond that is just gravy.
He needs to get us in the position to makes runs, i.e. getting a good seed.
I think if you're getting into the tourney every year those seasons will happen on their own. No one gets in as a ten seed every year with any consistency.
So basically, my requirements aren't that different than yours, I just don't worry about year to year specifics or judge an entire season (or career) based on the results of one or two games
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
He had a meaningful run, but there is no reason for optimism there will be more elite 8 runs unless you think he's going to start consistently earning 1 or 2 seeds.
Did you lodge this same complaint when Frank was here?
I expected the team to be a lot better than we were in 2010-11. That is the only team Frank had where I thought a final 4 might actually happen before the season started. Frank at least gave some reason to be optimistic that he might pull it off in the future, though, by virtue of building a team that earned a 2 seed.
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These threads are funny. I do give rusty credit for remaining consistent and steadfast in his opinions on oscar. I've been all over the place, but settled in with this team and had a fun year as a fan. Next year's team may not go as far in the tournament, but I expect to enjoy the season at least the same amount and probably more. I think we'll be at least slightly better and gain more quality wins. If anything, the biggest outlier this year was not getting a win over a end of the season top 10-15 team.
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I feel like we've made the tourney every year except the mulligan year and year that caused the mulligan.
I think his recruiting is better than Frank's.
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I hope oscar wins the conference just so I can read some of the reasons for why it wasn't a good enough conference championship.
:lol:
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how people don't care if we even win a single game in the tournament is beyond me.
Yeah, this.
Making tourney runs is great. See 2010.
Of course it's great. But coaches shouldn't be judged for their performance in a single elimination tournament. If oscar is getting us into the tournament every year, he's doing fine, and anything beyond that is just gravy.
He needs to get us in the position to makes runs, i.e. getting a good seed.
I think if you're getting into the tourney every year those seasons will happen on their own. No one gets in as a ten seed every year with any consistency.
So basically, my requirements aren't that different than yours, I just don't worry about year to year specifics or judge an entire season (or career) based on the results of one or two games
nothing that you say will satiate the pro-brucists
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I hope oscar wins the conference just so I can read some of the reasons for why it wasn't a good enough conference championship.
:lol:
me too, chum1
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There's literally nothing he could do to convince some of these fellas, short of winning the tournament (obv winning the big12 wasn't enough).
Do you think oscar will win the Big 12 again?
I do. Take away year one and the program accomplishments and his recruiting have improved. Looking at his '19 targets leads me to believe that will continue. I would like to see him hire an assistant who can recruit and or develop bigs.
Are you expecting oscar to coach longer than Bill Self?
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07-08: 3rd out of 12
08-09: 4th out of 12
09-10: 2nd out of 12
10-11: 4th out of 12
11-12: 5th out of 10
12-13: 2nd out of 10
13-14: 5th out of 10
14-15: 8th out of 10 (w)
15-16: 8th out of 10 (w)
16-17: 6th out of 10
What is this supposed to indicate?
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Are you expecting oscar to coach longer than Bill Self?
in some ways, the idea that kstate could win the big 12 is the least realistic of any expectation.
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
He had a meaningful run, but there is no reason for optimism there will be more elite 8 runs unless you think he's going to start consistently earning 1 or 2 seeds.
Did you lodge this same complaint when Frank was here?
I expected the team to be a lot better than we were in 2010-11. That is the only team Frank had where I thought a final 4 might actually happen before the season started. Frank at least gave some reason to be optimistic that he might pull it off in the future, though, by virtue of building a team that earned a 2 seed.
But his teams got progressively worse each year after that
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There's literally nothing he could do to convince some of these fellas, short of winning the tournament (obv winning the big12 wasn't enough).
Do you think oscar will win the Big 12 again?
I do. Take away year one and the program accomplishments and his recruiting have improved. Looking at his '19 targets leads me to believe that will continue. I would like to see him hire an assistant who can recruit and or develop bigs.
Are you expecting oscar to coach longer than Bill Self?
Was Bill Self at Kansas in 12-13? I forget.
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my hatred of oscar was always because of a CERTAINTY i had that his teams would never be good enough to do anything meaningful in the tournament. he has proven me wrong with reason for optimism in the future.
He had a meaningful run, but there is no reason for optimism there will be more elite 8 runs unless you think he's going to start consistently earning 1 or 2 seeds.
Did you lodge this same complaint when Frank was here?
I expected the team to be a lot better than we were in 2010-11. That is the only team Frank had where I thought a final 4 might actually happen before the season started. Frank at least gave some reason to be optimistic that he might pull it off in the future, though, by virtue of building a team that earned a 2 seed.
But his teams got progressively worse each year after that
he had one team after that and it finished higher in KP (worse B12 record and seed though)
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I don’t think oscar will ever put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at winning the Big 12, or to put a team on the floor with a realistic shot at a deep tournament run.
This year wasn't a deep tournament run? We're final four or bust now?
This year was a deep tournament run. We didn’t have a realistic shot at it going in, though. The stars just aligned to give us an easier path to the final 4 than any other team, which is very unusual for a 9 seed.
Bro, just look at the odds for any single team to win the tournament going into the first round. By your standards KSU would have to be like no worse than a 2 seed to have “a realistic shot at a deep tournament run.”
Also, it sounds like you’re saying if oscar won 3 consecutive nattys as a 8/9 seed then you’d still say he sucks because none of those runs were realistic going into it.
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I wonder if Leonard Hamilton (since getting hired FSU) is the best comparo. I think that's what's generally in store for ksu and oscar.
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If oscar is getting us into the tournament every year, he's doing fine, and anything beyond that is just gravy.
Is oscar not doing this or have the goalposts moved? FWIW, this is pretty much my standard expectation for KSU hoops.
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If oscar is getting us into the tournament every year, he's doing fine, and anything beyond that is just gravy.
Is oscar not doing this or have the goalposts moved? FWIW, this is pretty much my standard expectation for KSU hoops.
Factually he has not, but I can understand people giving him the Mulligan for the horrible seasons where we even missed the NIT.
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I stand by my statement that only the bluest of blue bloods can go 10+ years without missing the tournament. I mean, Kentucky’s streak isn’t even that long.
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I wonder if Leonard Hamilton (since getting hired FSU) is the best comparo. I think that's what's generally in store for ksu and oscar.
i sometimes wonder if he is underrated nationally, or if it is just in old big 8 country where people still think his osu teams underperformed.
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If oscar is getting us into the tournament every year, he's doing fine, and anything beyond that is just gravy.
Is oscar not doing this or have the goalposts moved? FWIW, this is pretty much my standard expectation for KSU hoops.
I mean, we've been "safely" in 1 out of the last 4 seasons. And I'm not arguing that oscar should be fired. So maybe I've moved them a bit in oscar's favor.
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I wonder if Leonard Hamilton (since getting hired FSU) is the best comparo. I think that's what's generally in store for ksu and oscar.
i sometimes wonder if he is underrated nationally, or if it is just in old big 8 country where people still think his osu teams underperformed.
he DID miss the tournament 4 years in a row before this two year run. I don't know if oscar could survive that. But he might be able to.
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If oscar is getting us into the tournament every year, he's doing fine, and anything beyond that is just gravy.
Is oscar not doing this or have the goalposts moved? FWIW, this is pretty much my standard expectation for KSU hoops.
I mean, we've been "safely" in 1 out of the last 4 seasons. And I'm not arguing that oscar should be fired. So maybe I've moved them a bit in oscar's favor.
I just realized I didn't use "safely" in that particular post. Oh well.
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07-08: 3rd out of 12
08-09: 4th out of 12
09-10: 2nd out of 12
10-11: 4th out of 12
11-12: 5th out of 10
12-13: 2nd out of 10
13-14: 5th out of 10
14-15: 8th out of 10 (w)
15-16: 8th out of 10 (w)
16-17: 6th out of 10
What is this supposed to indicate?
That I was able to find where I first posted that in February to somewhat answer catastrophe's question today w/o doing a lot of looking up old standings and taking a calculator to it.
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If oscar is getting us into the tournament every year, he's doing fine, and anything beyond that is just gravy.
Is oscar not doing this or have the goalposts moved? FWIW, this is pretty much my standard expectation for KSU hoops.
Factually he has not, but I can understand people giving him the Mulligan for the horrible seasons where we even missed the NIT.
The same people giving oscar a mulligan for the situation he created give him full credit for the championship team he inherited.
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If oscar is getting us into the tournament every year, he's doing fine, and anything beyond that is just gravy.
Is oscar not doing this or have the goalposts moved? FWIW, this is pretty much my standard expectation for KSU hoops.
Factually he has not, but I can understand people giving him the Mulligan for the horrible seasons where we even missed the NIT.
The same people giving oscar a mulligan for the situation he created give him full credit for the championship team he inherited.
You know why ppl give him credit for that? Because even with Frank's best teams, he could never do it. First time since '77.
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oscar's teams don't have an identity to fall back on when shots aren't falling, and rarely do they give consistent effort. Both of those things were glaring during the Elite 8 game. It's what made me hate oscar, and it's what makes it very hard to give him a second chance in light of his recent success.
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oscar's teams don't have an identity to fall back on when shots aren't falling, and rarely do they give consistent effort. Both of those things were glaring during the Elite 8 game. It's what made me hate oscar, and it's what makes it very hard to give him a second chance in light of his recent success.
Yeah, this happens to a lot of teams/coaches when their doors are getting blowin off from the tip. Pretty natural, actually.
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Gene Taylor should offer the Loyola dork coach $3mil after the game and tell oscar adios.
You realize that guy got fired from Illinois State, right?
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oscar's teams don't have an identity to fall back on when shots aren't falling, and rarely do they give consistent effort. Both of those things were glaring during the Elite 8 game. It's what made me hate oscar, and it's what makes it very hard to give him a second chance in light of his recent success.
Yeah, this happens to a lot of teams/coaches when their doors are getting blowin off from the tip. Pretty natural, actually.
I understand getting caught flat footed during the first five minutes or so, but we didn't really start playing hard until five minutes left in the game. There's thirty minutes of game time there where he couldn't get his guys to play as hard as the other team...in a game where the final four was on the line. I mean, come on man. Can we not just admit that oscar doesn't get consistent effort from his guys?
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he is what he is
that being said i am glad that i don't hae to hear any more media types try to mush me for a really pedestrian 3 game winning streak
E8 was pretty sweet tho
lol
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oscar's teams don't have an identity to fall back on when shots aren't falling, and rarely do they give consistent effort. Both of those things were glaring during the Elite 8 game. It's what made me hate oscar, and it's what makes it very hard to give him a second chance in light of his recent success.
Yeah, this happens to a lot of teams/coaches when their doors are getting blowin off from the tip. Pretty natural, actually.
I understand getting caught flat footed during the first five minutes or so, but we didn't really start playing hard until five minutes left in the game. There's thirty minutes of game time there where he couldn't get his guys to play as hard as the other team...in a game where the final four was on the line. I mean, come on man. Can we not just admit that oscar doesn't get consistent effort from his guys?
There is nothing more frustrating than playing defense and having guys hit a million shots on your ass, to only go down on the other end and not have it offensively. We ran into a buzz saw and it really sucked, but i'm not going to meltdown over it, especially when I saw Loyola play all 4 games and they're rough ridin' legit! It sucked, but come on yourself. Resorting right back to "Weber sucks" after a run like this is embarrassing.
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oscar's teams don't have an identity to fall back on when shots aren't falling, and rarely do they give consistent effort. Both of those things were glaring during the Elite 8 game. It's what made me hate oscar, and it's what makes it very hard to give him a second chance in light of his recent success.
Yeah, this happens to a lot of teams/coaches when their doors are getting blowin off from the tip. Pretty natural, actually.
I understand getting caught flat footed during the first five minutes or so, but we didn't really start playing hard until five minutes left in the game. There's thirty minutes of game time there where he couldn't get his guys to play as hard as the other team...in a game where the final four was on the line. I mean, come on man. Can we not just admit that oscar doesn't get consistent effort from his guys?
There is nothing more frustrating than playing defense and having guys hit a million shots on your ass, to only go down on the other end and not have it offensively. We ran into a buzz saw and it really sucked, but i'm not going to meltdown over it, especially when I saw Loyola play all 4 games and they're rough ridin' legit! It sucked, but come on yourself. Resorting right back to "Weber sucks" after a run like this is embarrassing.
I didn't say he sucks. I said he has a harder time than other "good" coaches getting his guys to play hard, and it's frustrating as a fan.
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I didn't say he sucks. I said he has a harder time than other "good" coaches getting his guys to play hard, and it's frustrating as a fan.
I agree with this. It's why I think he's had success with other people's players. A Frank/Self team had play hard ingrained in them and oscar can largely just be the good cop with those players. The past few years with oscar, there has always been a B12 losing streak followed by an upperclassman talking about intensity/effort. Sneed and Barry might be able to help bring the intensity to next year's team that we lack from the staff.
I also enjoy that oscar put together an E8 run that can almost fuel haters as much as supporters. It will always be like this.
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I didn't say he sucks. I said he has a harder time than other "good" coaches getting his guys to play hard, and it's frustrating as a fan.
I agree with this. It's why I think he's had success with other people's players. A Frank/Self team had play hard ingrained in them and oscar can largely just be the good cop with those players. The past few years with oscar, there has always been a B12 losing streak followed by an upperclassman talking about intensity/effort. Sneed and Barry might be able to help bring the intensity to next year's team that we lack from the staff.
I also enjoy that oscar put together an E8 run that can almost fuel haters as much as supporters. It will always be like this.
I agree that oscar needs leadership from his players more than most successful D1 coaches. I credit Barry for a lot of this year's success because he brought that and I think he will next year as well. Sneed seems to have that and I think McGuirl might be able to continue it. I love Diarra, but I'm not sure he'll ever be that type of leader. For certain there are no guarantees, but having some sort of progression like this makes me feel better about the future of the program and the ability to overcome some of oscar's deficiencies as a coach.
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oscar's teams don't have an identity to fall back on when shots aren't falling, and rarely do they give consistent effort. Both of those things were glaring during the Elite 8 game. It's what made me hate oscar, and it's what makes it very hard to give him a second chance in light of his recent success.
I think that kind of is the identity though.
My thoughts on the subject have not changed:
That said, I have long thought that if we are going to have a chance to make a decent run in the NCAA, becoming a live/die by the 3 team is not a bad way to do it. So I actually like that shift this year. No question we died by the 3 against Tulsa though.
Without a good post presence (especially without Dean) we pretty much have to rely on hitting threes in order to open up our interior offense. We couldn't do that against Loyola and we still were one 3-pointer from cutting the lead to single digits with over 2 minutes left during the game.
Of course, who knows if even that would have even been enough vs. Loyola. We were never able to account for the loss of Dean's offense, and they shot it well enough that the best we could do was just try to keep up.
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I'll point out again that it's very easy to point to a team getting their ass kicked and simply chalk it up to effort, if you're trying to push an agenda.
There is no presentable evidence that oscar's teams don't play harder than anyone else, it's a completely hollow talking point that people will continue to push, just because.
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I'll point out again that it's very easy to point to a team getting their ass kicked and simply chalk it up to effort, if you're trying to push an agenda.
There is no presentable evidence that oscar's teams don't play harder than anyone else, it's a completely hollow talking point that people will continue to push, just because.
I've acknowledged it's impossible to quantify. But you can't watch film of Mawien's season of transition loafing and say that dude's effort would be allowed with a coach like Huggins.
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i just don't get "effort."
did wally judge put forth great effort under frank?
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25-12 (10-8) with an Elite 8 appearance is better than all but one of Frank's seasons.
the only way you can say that is if you value tournament success over all other variables. which is fine if you do, but you may as well just say it.
His best season was 29-8 with an Elite 8, followed by 23-11 and a 2nd round exit with Pullen and Kelly as Seniors. Frank gets an excuse, while oscar gets the most biased analysis of any coach since Wooly (some of you fuckers loved him for being a crap coach but "good person"...oh, the irony).
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25-12 (10-8) with an Elite 8 appearance is better than all but one of Frank's seasons.
the only way you can say that is if you value tournament success over all other variables. which is fine if you do, but you may as well just say it.
yes, tournament wins are weighted more heavily than any other variable. now most of the time the way to increase chances of tournament success is to kick ass during the regular season and get a good seed in the tourney, but if we are a 9 seed every year and make the elite eight, fine by me.
i know that's not realistic, so yes, i would like to see us improve and get a better seed next year.
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It's all about the tournament for me. IDGAF about 3rd vs. 5th place in the conference.
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I mainly want a team with players I like that is competitive for #1 in the conference.
Second to that, I just want to win tournament games.
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oscar's teams don't have an identity to fall back on when shots aren't falling, and rarely do they give consistent effort. Both of those things were glaring during the Elite 8 game. It's what made me hate oscar, and it's what makes it very hard to give him a second chance in light of his recent success.
Yeah, this happens to a lot of teams/coaches when their doors are getting blowin off from the tip. Pretty natural, actually.
I understand getting caught flat footed during the first five minutes or so, but we didn't really start playing hard until five minutes left in the game. There's thirty minutes of game time there where he couldn't get his guys to play as hard as the other team...in a game where the final four was on the line. I mean, come on man. Can we not just admit that oscar doesn't get consistent effort from his guys?
It sucked, but come on yourself.
What in the world
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It's all about the tournament for me. IDGAF about 3rd vs. 5th place in the conference.
8 seed or above every year should be a minimum
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yes, tournament wins are weighted more heavily than any other variable. now most of the time the way to increase chances of tournament success is to kick ass during the regular season and get a good seed in the tourney, but if we are a 9 seed every year and make the elite eight, fine by me.
i know that's not realistic, so yes, i would like to see us improve and get a better seed next year.
completely fair. i'm a conference guy myself. i'd take going 14-0 against ku, mu, ou, osu, nu, isu and cu over anything.
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honest question - do you look back on '12-'13 more favorably than '09-'10?
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i don't, but there's a lot that factors into that - the conference breaking apart, the coaching change plus some personal stuff that led to me not paying much attention to kstate bball in 12-13.
if you could remove those extraneous factors, it'd be a good test to see if i really value what i think i do.
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If you count the Big 12 co-champs, Oscar has done more than frank has during his tenure. They did the same when it came to the tournament.
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If you count the Big 12 co-champs, Oscar has done more than frank has during his tenure. They did the same when it came to the tournament.
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Honestly, I am tired of Frank vs oscar. Its over. I loved Frank, he's gone. I've never loved oscar, but he redeemed himself enough to me the year plus (basically since the Norman debacle last year) that I'm fine with him.
Ultimately its about having fun and enjoying K-State basketball; I have for the last year, the past two weeks was an absolute blast, and I'm looking forward to next year.
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If you count the Big 12 co-champs, Oscar has done more than frank has during his tenure. They did the same when it came to the tournament.
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Honestly, I am tired of Frank vs oscar. Its over. I loved Frank, he's gone. I've never loved oscar, but he redeemed himself enough to me the year plus (basically since the Norman debacle last year) that I'm fine with him.
Ultimately its about having fun and enjoying K-State basketball; I have for the last year, the past two weeks was an absolute blast, and I'm looking forward to next year.
I am too but this is all that people want to do is compare and contrast. oscar is who we have, has a great shot at repeating this year's success. A raise in recruiting interest. I'm excited for the future of this team and squad. Most people think that the glory days are better, but what we have is just as good if not better.
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i just don't get "effort."
did wally judge put forth great effort under frank?
not really, which is why he played less than Lu Colon and was run in the middle of his sophomore year.
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oscar has a great shot at repeating this year's conference record. He has really bad odds of repeating this year's tournament success, though.
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correct, because we were incredibly lucky in the tournament
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Also, the conference record wasn't all that impressive. 4th out of 10 is a very reasonable expectation.
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Ultimately its about having fun and enjoying K-State basketball; I have for the last year, the past two weeks was an absolute blast, and I'm looking forward to next year.
Yep. Looking hard at getting season tix for next year. Hate that I missed on that absurd sale they had after the UMBC game.
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Also, the conference record wasn't all that impressive. 4th out of 10 is a very reasonable expectation.
Normally yes. But the 3 teams above us were all Sweet 16 teams, 2 of the 3 were Elite 8 teams (the third losing to the odds-on favorite to win it all), and 1 of the 3 is a Final Four team at worst. Not to mention several teams below us cleaned up in their non-con with some convincing wins over tournament teams. 4th place in THAT conference is pretty damn good.
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i just don't get "effort."
did wally judge put forth great effort under frank?
One reason I think there has been a lack of effort or intensity is because sometime in February a player would always make a comment on it. I am pretty sure at least Gip and Wes did at some point. Maybe that is just what mediocre teams are bound to bring up because they don't want to admit they suck, but I took them at their word.
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i just don't get "effort."
did wally judge put forth great effort under frank?
One reason I think there has been a lack of effort or intensity is because sometime in February a player would always make a comment on it. I am pretty sure at least Gip and Wes did at some point. Maybe that is just what mediocre teams are bound to bring up because they don't want to admit they suck, but I took them at their word.
Yes, and it was annoying. I think Barry (maybe Dean and Sneed) said we aren't going to say that stupid stuff anymore.
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Heard someone on the radio comment that Wes Westicles never really focused on his jumpshot until halfway through his senior year.
that's pretty lazy.
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Heard someone on the radio comment that Wes Westicles never really focused on his jumpshot until halfway through his senior year.
that's pretty lazy.
I'd say that's more poor player development
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Gene Taylor should offer the Loyola dork coach $3mil after the game and tell oscar adios.
You realize that guy got fired from Illinois State, right?
Moser did a great job this year. Fantastic
His previous 10 years as a HC, all 10 years his team was under .500 in Conference.
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Gene Taylor should offer the Loyola dork coach $3mil after the game and tell oscar adios.
You realize that guy got fired from Illinois State, right?
Moser did a great job this year. Fantastic
His previous 10 years as a HC, all 10 years his team was under .500 in Conference.
Its really weird. His biggest mentor early in his career was Tony Barone, an awful coach at aTm. After he got fired at Illinois State, he got on with Majerus at St Louis and he probably learned some things before going to Loyola. This year things came together in a ridiculous way though and he's done a great job with this team.
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it's a good reminder that players matter a lot more than coaches.
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Heard someone on the radio comment that Wes Westicles never really focused on his jumpshot until halfway through his senior year.
that's pretty lazy.
I'd say that's more poor player development
:jerk:
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Heard someone on the radio comment that Wes Westicles never really focused on his jumpshot until halfway through his senior year.
that's pretty lazy.
I'd say that's more poor player development
:jerk:
I don't understand the masturbating eye rolling emoticon in this case
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:Take the Bait:
Heard someone on the radio comment that Wes Westicles never really focused on his jumpshot until halfway through his senior year.
that's pretty lazy.
The fact is that Iwunda decided to correct his shooting form late his junior year when he could not practice due to a foot injury. Coaches worked with him to completely change his form by getting his elbow in and underneath the ball. Use multiple training aids tohelp advance this change. Then he worked on it the entire spring and sumer of 2016. I think he should have made that change his freshman year and don't know who should be blamed for it although there are lots of so called experts that do not think shooting form can be changed after high school. It has nothing to do with being lazy.
The Flush made the same change this summer and shot 38% from three in Big 12 play vs 25% his sophomore year on the same number of shots.
Buddy Hield made similar changes after his freshman year and additional tweaks every year he was at OU.
Hard work without using the right technique is just hard work with no reward.
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I forgot about Wesley's foot injury. WTF
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If you count the Big 12 co-champs, Oscar has done more than frank has during his tenure. They did the same when it came to the tournament.
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Honestly, I am tired of Frank vs oscar. Its over. I loved Frank, he's gone. I've never loved oscar, but he redeemed himself enough to me the year plus (basically since the Norman debacle last year) that I'm fine with him.
Ultimately its about having fun and enjoying K-State basketball; I have for the last year, the past two weeks was an absolute blast, and I'm looking forward to next year.
This is it, well said everyone's irl friend.
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i just don't get "effort."
did wally judge put forth great effort under frank?
not really, which is why he played less than Lu Colon and was run in the middle of his sophomore year.
Guys, good exchange. Rusty you also had a great point about Mawien.
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Ultimately its about having fun and enjoying K-State basketball; I have for the last year, the past two weeks was an absolute blast, and I'm looking forward to next year.
Yep. Looking hard at getting season tix for next year. Hate that I missed on that absurd sale they had after the UMBC game.
We didn't discuss the four football season tickets and four season basketball tickets they were selling for $1200 after the Kentucky game.
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Ultimately its about having fun and enjoying K-State basketball; I have for the last year, the past two weeks was an absolute blast, and I'm looking forward to next year.
Yep. Looking hard at getting season tix for next year. Hate that I missed on that absurd sale they had after the UMBC game.
We didn't discuss the four football season tickets and four season basketball tickets they were selling for $1200 after the Kentucky game.
That was incredibly tempting and it's a ten hour drive for me.
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Ultimately its about having fun and enjoying K-State basketball; I have for the last year, the past two weeks was an absolute blast, and I'm looking forward to next year.
Yep. Looking hard at getting season tix for next year. Hate that I missed on that absurd sale they had after the UMBC game.
We didn't discuss the four football season tickets and four season basketball tickets they were selling for $1200 after the Kentucky game.
Yeah. Crazy.
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Sure would be cool to be researching Mexican joints in SA right now...thanks oscar!
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Sure would be cool to be researching Mexican joints in SA right now...thanks oscar!
Looking for a tornado shelter in Galveston at 3AM Thursday morning was no treat