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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Jerome Tang Coaches Kansas State Basketball => Topic started by: Dr Rick Daris on March 30, 2017, 12:16:49 PM
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frank is younger. frank has been to an elite 8 and a final 4. brad just got a job at a better school and is getting paid more.
if you could hire either tomorrow, who would it be? why?
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Frank
Because he has more personality and his teams play better defense.
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Both my answer and reaction to the OP.
(https://hoopdirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/martin.jpg)
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Yeah it's Frank in a landslide
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Brad hasn't truly built a roster. Brad defense has more often than not been poor.
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I would hire Frank - in addition to the facts he has a better resume and is younger I believe Frank will be more successful for 2 big reasons
1- He is a better recruiter if only for his deep roots in FL
2- His defensive mentality is superior to Brad's (at least what Brad did at SFA and tried early at OSU) - Brad's teams are more aggressive and play at a faster tempo but Frank's grinding style will get you a deeper run and allow you to beat more talented teams
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Frank by over a trillion miles. Would love Brad though.
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FRANK!
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Frank
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(https://mlblogsroyals.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/martin20pitch-thumb-379x336-23487311.jpg)
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That all said, it looks like Brad will be coaching the most talented roster either of them have had next year and with him keeping the stud recruiter on staff he might blow Frank's success away in short order
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That all said, it looks like Brad will be coaching the most talented roster either of them have had next year and with him keeping the stud recruiter on staff he might blow Frank's success away in short order
frank's success is an elite 8 and a final 4. the only way brad can blow that away is to win a natty or some izzo type tournament success and that isn't happening in short order, son
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Winning the Big 10 would be something.
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Offer Frank 4.5 mil per.
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(https://mlblogsroyals.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/martin20pitch-thumb-379x336-23487311.jpg)
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:lol:
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embarrassing
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Who would choose brad? I think the better question is who's place youd rather be in
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
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(https://mlblogsroyals.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/martin20pitch-thumb-379x336-23487311.jpg)
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Holy Sh#t......... :buh-bye:
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Brad
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By gully, I got to admit Kim's on to something here. :surprised:
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did Illinois hire the wrong guy then? I mean surely frank would have bolted from South Carolina for that gig? Frank holding out for something better?
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Why would Frank ever come back to the Midwest? All of his recruiting ties are on the east cost. He's home for awhile.
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did Illinois hire the wrong guy then? I mean surely frank would have bolted from South Carolina for that gig? Frank holding out for something better?
why are you so sure about that? i'm not so sure.
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did Illinois hire the wrong guy then? I mean surely frank would have bolted from South Carolina for that gig? Frank holding out for something better?
They offered the job to cuonzo first.
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Man oscar didn't even throw it from the mound
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(https://mlblogsroyals.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/martin20pitch-thumb-379x336-23487311.jpg)
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:lol:
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did Illinois hire the wrong guy then? I mean surely frank would have bolted from South Carolina for that gig? Frank holding out for something better?
why are you so sure about that? i'm not so sure.
Daris is an Illinois guy, he can't see those are now on the same level.
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South Carolina and Illinois aren't on the same basketball level :lol:
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See, told you guys.
The only thing Illinois currently has a clear advantage over South Carolina is tradition. Millennials have no idea who Lou Henson is, as fantastic as he was.
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See, told you guys.
The only thing Illinois currently has a clear advantage over South Carolina is tradition. Millennials have no idea who Lou Henson is, as fantastic as he was.
he's the guy who created the muppets
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South Carolina has been to a final four in the last decade so I'm not sure they are even on par at this point.
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See, told you guys.
The only thing Illinois currently has a clear advantage over South Carolina is tradition. Millennials have no idea who Lou Henson is, as fantastic as he was.
he's the guy who created the muppets
That was Steve Henson
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South Carolina and Illinois aren't on the same basketball level :lol:
Like Frank gives a crap about that. :lol:
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South Carolina and Illinois aren't on the same basketball level :lol:
i didn't ask if they were on the same level, i asked why you were so sure Frank would leave USC for UI.
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South Carolina and Illinois aren't on the same basketball level :lol:
i didn't ask if they were on the same level, i asked why you were so sure Frank would leave USC for UI.
More money, easier to recruit, much less racisty town to live in.
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i'd take underwood, honestly. i think he has more upside.
martin has pretty much proven who he is. and that's a coach that puts an elite defense on the floor, which is good enough to be a solid but not great team most of the time, and occasionally he gets a couple of scorers that pushes them into very good. underwood hasn't proven who he is yet, but there's a decent shot he could have a higher baseline.
i'd also be very happy to have martin, obviously.
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i'd take underwood, honestly. i think he has more upside.
martin has pretty much proven who he is. and that's a coach that puts an elite defense on the floor, which is good enough to be a solid but not great team most of the time, and occasionally he gets a couple of scorers that pushes them into very good. underwood hasn't proven who he is yet, but there's a decent shot he could have a higher baseline.
i'd also be very happy to have martin, obviously.
More upside? Brad is two years older than Frank is and has been a D1 coach for half as long. I don't really understand what you are doing here outside of being different on purpose.
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South Carolina and Illinois aren't on the same basketball level :lol:
i didn't ask if they were on the same level, i asked why you were so sure Frank would leave USC for UI.
More money, easier to recruit, much less racisty town to live in.
(https://m.popkey.co/3cf398/1Zwx8_s-200x150.gif)
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More upside? Brad is two years older than Frank is and has been a D1 coach for half as long. I don't really understand what you are doing here outside of being different on purpose.
martin has a ten year record coaching at high major schools. underwood has one year. martin is a fairly well-known entity, underwood is much less known.
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i'd take underwood, honestly. i think he has more upside.
martin has pretty much proven who he is. and that's a coach that puts an elite defense on the floor, which is good enough to be a solid but not great team most of the time, and occasionally he gets a couple of scorers that pushes them into very good. underwood hasn't proven who he is yet, but there's a decent shot he could have a higher baseline.
i'd also be very happy to have martin, obviously.
I don't think the shot is that decent.
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Point for Brad.
https://twitter.com/GoodmanESPN/status/849712884523335684
https://twitter.com/EvanDaniels/status/849711966574620672
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i remember a small contingent of posters here wanted antigua after frank left
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i remember a small contingent of posters here wanted antigua after frank left
If "small" = "Rusty" then yes.
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i remember a small contingent of posters here wanted antigua after frank left
If "small" = "Rusty" then yes.
I wanted him.
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I have never heard of that person
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He's the Hurricane.
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Point for Brad.
https://twitter.com/GoodmanESPN/status/849712884523335684
https://twitter.com/EvanDaniels/status/849711966574620672
Excellent move. Hiring from the Cal tree is brilliant.
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i remember a small contingent of posters here wanted antigua after frank left
If "small" = "Rusty" then yes.
Hey!
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i remember a small contingent of posters here wanted antigua after frank left
He was above the burn it down line on SD's coaching search thread you asshat.
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(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/eLxFInkJyVU/0.jpg)
:drool:
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He only recruited one 4* at USF. Everything was 3 or uner during his time there. I'm sure that will change as an assistant, but still. You would think he could sell Clearwater Beach.
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if only we could go back and see who he recruited as an assistant
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Good land for Brad, but Brad did lose his stud recruit.
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if only we could go back and see who he recruited as an assistant
Yeah and that was to Kentucky.
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if only we could go back and see who he recruited as an assistant
Yeah and that was to Kentucky.
I'm sure Cal taught him well.
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I'm not hating. It's a very solid pickup. His recruiting just never carried over as a HC at USF.
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I'm not hating. It's a very solid pickup. His recruiting just never carried over as a HC at USF.
Probably the best player he coached in 3 years at USF was from Highland Park in Topeka and he left halfway through this year for SMU.
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I'm not hating. It's a very solid pickup. His recruiting just never carried over as a HC at USF.
Probably the best player he coached in 3 years at USF was from Highland Park in Topeka and he left halfway through this year for SMU.
His faults could be based on not hiring the right assistants on a limited budget. But I wouldn't say he is great by any means.
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i remember a small contingent of posters here wanted antigua after frank left
If "small" = "Rusty" then yes.
I wanted him.
you're the first one i think of in a free association with the hurricane
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I got to hear Brad speak at a Nike coaches clinic this weekend. He was excellent and shared several of the things that are his focus as an offensive coach.
1. Play fast. He said he gives his player the freedom to try to score within the first 7 seconds of the shot clock. They have a ball screen system and he believes the defense can't get set if you truly play fast (and he contends most players don't really want to play fast when they realize how hard you must work to do it) you will get great shots.
2. Get to the third side to score. If they can't get a shot in that first 7 seconds (he said that is the players' time), then its "his time". He talked about how after the defense is set, the offense scores 30% of the time on the first side of the floor. The 2nd side it increases only to 34%. The 3rd side it bumps up to 60%. His offensive system is pretty simple, operating off of ball screens and spacing, and clearly it worked as he had the most efficient offense in the country.
3. Offensive rebound. His goal is 40% of the missed shots. He talked a lot about getting opposite of the rim; he has his staff chart all missed shots and the misses go to the opposite side of the rim 76% (or more) of the time per season he's been a head coach.
4. Free throws. Not only getting there, but making them. He contends that guys just don't shoot them enough, so he has them shoot them. At least 100 a day before practice during the season and in the offseason at least 500 FTs per day. OSU went from 73% to 79% this year. His SFA teams increased from 71% to 75% during his 3 seasons there.
5. Never shoot over a close out. His guys are always instructed to drive if they are ever getting closed out on by a defender.
6. When you scout, find the worst defender and try to exploit them as much as possible. He said most teams focus on the best defenders, but he has always focused on finding the worst one.
He had several other things, but I thought the tenants of his offense was the most interesting.
I missed Bob Huggins speak, but I heard the main point of his trapping full court defense is force opponent's to their weak hand. Seems very middle school or high school, but it still works at that level. Underwood also mentioned that when they go against ball screens, they always try to force opponent's left. He pointed out that even Evans only finished 28% of the time with his left, so if a pro can't finish most other college players can't either. Underwood is a huge advanced stats and analytics guy.
Finally, I head Bob Knight. He was typical Knight, talking about ball fakes and spacing and a lot of the stuff he talked about a lot as a commentator. However, the sad thing is he is clearly in the early stages of dementia or Alzheimer's as he would often get off track and look at his sheet and then repeat verbatim a point he had made earlier in his talk.
In any case, listening to Underwood only made me more ticked that we didn't try to sign him when Frank left or last year. The guys is simply a winner and he will be successful at Illinois. I will be shocked if he isn't. He also sounds a lot like Frank in talking about accountability, helping guys become men, etc. when he talks. Its so refreshing to hear a coach talk like that after putting up with oscar and excuses the last 5 years.
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I got to hear Brad speak at a Nike coaches clinic this weekend. He was excellent and shared several of the things that are his focus as an offensive coach.
1. Play fast. He said he gives his player the freedom to try to score within the first 7 seconds of the shot clock. They have a ball screen system and he believes the defense can't get set if you truly play fast (and he contends most players don't really want to play fast when they realize how hard you must work to do it) you will get great shots.
2. Get to the third side to score. If they can't get a shot in that first 7 seconds (he said that is the players' time), then its "his time". He talked about how after the defense is set, the offense scores 30% of the time on the first side of the floor. The 2nd side it increases only to 34%. The 3rd side it bumps up to 60%. His offensive system is pretty simple, operating off of ball screens and spacing, and clearly it worked as he had the most efficient offense in the country.
3. Offensive rebound. His goal is 40% of the missed shots. He talked a lot about getting opposite of the rim; he has his staff chart all missed shots and the misses go to the opposite side of the rim 76% (or more) of the time per season he's been a head coach.
4. Free throws. Not only getting there, but making them. He contends that guys just don't shoot them enough, so he has them shoot them. At least 100 a day before practice during the season and in the offseason at least 500 FTs per day. OSU went from 73% to 79% this year. His SFA teams increased from 71% to 75% during his 3 seasons there.
5. Never shoot over a close out. His guys are always instructed to drive if they are ever getting closed out on by a defender.
6. When you scout, find the worst defender and try to exploit them as much as possible. He said most teams focus on the best defenders, but he has always focused on finding the worst one.
He had several other things, but I thought the tenants of his offense was the most interesting.
I missed Bob Huggins speak, but I heard the main point of his trapping full court defense is force opponent's to their weak hand. Seems very middle school or high school, but it still works at that level. Underwood also mentioned that when they go against ball screens, they always try to force opponent's left. He pointed out that even Evans only finished 28% of the time with his left, so if a pro can't finish most other college players can't either. Underwood is a huge advanced stats and analytics guy.
Finally, I head Bob Knight. He was typical Knight, talking about ball fakes and spacing and a lot of the stuff he talked about a lot as a commentator. However, the sad thing is he is clearly in the early stages of dementia or Alzheimer's as he would often get off track and look at his sheet and then repeat verbatim a point he had made earlier in his talk.
In any case, listening to Underwood only made me more ticked that we didn't try to sign him when Frank left or last year. The guys is simply a winner and he will be successful at Illinois. I will be shocked if he isn't. He also sounds a lot like Frank in talking about accountability, helping guys become men, etc. when he talks. Its so refreshing to hear a coach talk like that after putting up with oscar and excuses the last 5 years.
That's really cool
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Really enjoyed that recap _fan
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Avila! i had a friend go to this as well; said the same thing about Knight. rambled on for 20 mins about defensive switching, etc. :frown:
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I also heard McDermott. He was good too, but he just showed a bunch of drills, sets against zone defenses, and inbounds plays. They had the players from the college the clinic was at run the drills and several of the coaches used them a lot.
When Knight was showing a few of the drills he playfully slapped one of the guys in the neck, but it was hard enough to be awkward. Also, the players were in black/white practice gear and Knight kept referring to them as the "black guys" and "white guys" meaning the jersey color, but also still awkward.
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Avila! i had a friend go to this as well; said the same thing about Knight. rambled on for 20 mins about defensive switching, etc. :frown:
Yes, same one.
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Meanwhile oscar is out showing 2* kids his play hard chart
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goddamn. jesus eff goddamn.
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I got to hear Brad speak at a Nike coaches clinic this weekend. He was excellent and shared several of the things that are his focus as an offensive coach.
.
.
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4. Free throws. Not only getting there, but making them. He contends that guys just don't shoot them enough, so he has them shoot them. At least 100 a day before practice during the season and in the offseason at least 500 FTs per day. OSU went from 73% to 79% this year. His SFA teams increased from 71% to 75% during his 3 seasons there.
In any case, listening to Underwood only made me more ticked that we didn't try to sign him when Frank left or last year. The guys is simply a winner and he will be successful at Illinois. I will be shocked if he isn't. He also sounds a lot like Frank in talking about accountability, helping guys become men, etc. when he talks. Its so refreshing to hear a coach talk like that after putting up with oscar and excuses the last 5 years.
Shades of Jay Frazier from McPherson. Source->3 years of shagging FT rebounds as a manager. 2 when Brad was there.
Also the last part as well.
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Didn't see any recaps about defense from our guy Brad.
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Didn't see any recaps about defense from our guy Brad.
how dare you.
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Didn't see any recaps about defense from our guy Brad.
They all have a topic, Brad's was on his offensive philosophy.
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Thanks for the recap _Fan, made my depression about basketball worse, oh well.
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Thank you _FAN. That 60% conversion rate after switching the side of the ball third time seems crazy high considering when it happens the shot clock is damn near expired.
I also love that note about close out defenders. Not that I had to worry about that when I played but we were taught to always shoot over close out defenders, my coaches were also Iba guys. Driving makes more sense considering the momentum of the defender when closing out.
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What does close out defender mean?
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Ah
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I think if it's a three you might still want to shoot. Or give the players freedom to decide. Like you'd probably rather have Phil Forte shooting a 23 foot three over a long closeout than driving and shooting a pull-up two.
Other than that I pretty much love everything he said.
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Do you think he intended for them to go all the way to the basket? I took it to be drive around them and go to the cup or pull up for a midrange.
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I think if it's a three you might still want to shoot. Or give the players freedom to decide.
that's good coaching right there.
"guys, here's what i want you to do: you decide!"
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It's good theory but the other team might also know what your doing and develop a plan to deter you. Just sayin'.
Really nothing in there that all coaches haven't heard many times over at every coaching clinic they've ever been to. Now go behind the scenes and talk to Brads former players and assistants and see the crap that goes on and is encouraged at his practices. No way any one of us would want your own kid to play for him.
bradley has done well winning with the other guys' players. much the same observation that's used to demean coach weber. we'll see how underwood does with his own guys in a big boy league. presently, he's losing talent signed by john groce.
i happened to attend one of frank's practices. it was gut wrenching stuff.
reminded me of boot camp or worse. underwood was in full bloom wearing out wally judge in favor of jamsam.
Now. The poster who was adoring Underwood and blasting Weber, well, he had his mind made up before the talk. It still comes down to having the right mix of players.
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I think if it's a three you might still want to shoot. Or give the players freedom to decide.
that's good coaching right there.
"guys, here's what i want you to do: you decide!"
yeah I guess in hindsight college basketball players shouldn't be trusted to decide when to drive, shoot, or pass.
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I think if it's a three you might still want to shoot. Or give the players freedom to decide. Like you'd probably rather have Phil Forte shooting a 23 foot three over a long closeout than driving and shooting a pull-up two.
Other than that I pretty much love everything he said.
He didn't say, or I didn't hear it, but nearly everything Brad does offensively is based on analytics. I'm sure he has numbers to back up why he does this.
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It's good theory but the other team might also know what your doing and develop a plan to deter you. Just sayin'.
Really nothing in there that all coaches haven't heard many times over at every coaching clinic they've ever been to. Now go behind the scenes and talk to Brads former players and assistants and see the crap that goes on and is encouraged at his practices. No way any one of us would want your own kid to play for him.
bradley has done well winning with the other guys' players. much the same observation that's used to demean coach weber. we'll see how underwood does with his own guys in a big boy league. presently, he's losing talent signed by john groce.
i happened to attend one of frank's practices. it was gut wrenching stuff.
reminded me of boot camp or worse. underwood was in full bloom wearing out wally judge in favor of jamsam.
Now. The poster who was adoring Underwood and blasting Weber, well, he had his mind made up before the talk. It still comes down to having the right mix of players.
All these people are dumb. All of them.
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I think if it's a three you might still want to shoot. Or give the players freedom to decide. Like you'd probably rather have Phil Forte shooting a 23 foot three over a long closeout than driving and shooting a pull-up two.
Other than that I pretty much love everything he said.
Closer is better if you are going for weak side rebounds. It is something that oscar said he had trouble coaching out of the team his first year.
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I think if it's a three you might still want to shoot. Or give the players freedom to decide. Like you'd probably rather have Phil Forte shooting a 23 foot three over a long closeout than driving and shooting a pull-up two.
Other than that I pretty much love everything he said.
He didn't say, or I didn't hear it, but nearly everything Brad does offensively is based on analytics. I'm sure he has numbers to back up why he does this.
And I'm sure he recognizes not all closeout situations are created equal and doesn't make it a hard and fast rule.
Although like one of the gpc posters alluded to I would have my team do "fake" closeouts on Brad's teams.
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I think if it's a three you might still want to shoot. Or give the players freedom to decide.
that's good coaching right there.
"guys, here's what i want you to do: you decide!"
oscar, is that you?
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It depends on what the definition of closeout is
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I wonder what these people would think if they could get inside one of Coach K's stand up/5 feet off the sideline timeout huddles.
I have two close friends who had nephews who played Fball at Kstate. The same dudes who "wouldn't want their kids" playing for Frank or Brad, wouldn't want their kid playing Fball at Kstate.
All reports are Seff ain't no practice saint either.
Welcome to big time D1 athletics kids.
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i wonder the same thing all of the time, dax
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One time my uncle said Joe Paterno was who he'd want coaching his son
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One time my uncle said Joe Paterno was who he'd want coaching his son
I know, right.
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i wonder the same thing all of the time, dax
Duke radio has a sideline reporter. He always gives a very detailed analysis of the sit on the bench timeouts, and what K is telling the team.
The stand up tight huddles, not so much.
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https://twitter.com/FrankMartin_SC/status/852190527147700224
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Frank is a good man trying to do it right. Brad is going greasy dog crap. Recruiting KU garbage Bragg. Hired two sleaze assistants in Antigua and Coleman. Big turd in the Chicago sewer system.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.thechampaignroom.com/platform/amp/2017/4/9/15237542/carlton-bragg-illinois-fighting-illini-basketball-recruiting-news-rumors-kansas-jayhawks
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Frank is a good man trying to do it right. Brad is going greasy dog crap. Recruiting KU garbage Bragg. Hired two sleaze assistants in Antigua and Coleman. Big turd in the Chicago sewer system.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.thechampaignroom.com/platform/amp/2017/4/9/15237542/carlton-bragg-illinois-fighting-illini-basketball-recruiting-news-rumors-kansas-jayhawks
Sounds like a winner.
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Sounds like Brad was p smart wearing out Wally in favor of Jamsam
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Well, the thirty second shot clock makes it a lot easier to play very tough defense since you only have to lock down for 25 seconds. Still, if the game was called as it should be called, basketball would be much more "pretty", if you will. Of course, this would mean that many games would not go down to the wire as talent would deliver. Yet, there are ways to balance that out like doing away with the one and done; by limiting the number of stars on one particular team. Then, we would see great basketball and we would see real coaches rise to the top.
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Well, the thirty second shot clock makes it a lot easier to play very tough defense since you only have to lock down for 25 seconds. Still, if the game was called as it should be called, basketball would be much more "pretty", if you will. Of course, this would mean that many games would not go down to the wire as talent would deliver. Yet, there are ways to balance that out like doing away with the one and done; by limiting the number of stars on one particular team. Then, we would see great basketball and we would see real coaches rise to the top.
define real coaches