goemaw.com
TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Jerome Tang Coaches Kansas State Basketball => Topic started by: Powercat Posse on March 25, 2017, 11:30:27 PM
-
Direct quote from Masa Self
-
7 times a 1 seed....07,08,10,11,13,16,17.
1 Final Four
2 seed in 14 & 15, lost in 2nd round
2x lost in 1st rd as a 3,4 seed
-
Six 1 seeds say far more about his coaching ability than the number of final fours
-
Great Reg season coach... 13x big 12 champ
Postseason... Meh....
Only 1 for 7 getting his 1 seed to the FF isn't good
Then 4 tourneys they underachieved
They were very lucky Memphis choked 9 pt lead with 2:10 to play..... Otherwise, no Self title in 14 years.
-
Six 1 seeds say far more about his coaching ability than the number of final fours
Getting a 1 seed is akin to rankings/polls
-
Brooks, Dorsey, Bell...
68.9% eFG, 23 Rebounds, 9 assists, 8 block shots.
Clown show on Frank Josh and Landon
-
Ku didn't even shoot 40% eFG.
They were tied 16-16. Then got Outscored 45-31 the next 21minutes.
The headlight breaker, the expired tag maker, and the kick my GF in face sucker...Were a combined 5-23 FG. That's Jackson, Graham, Vick for you out of the loop peeps
They scored 64 pts in 22 minutes vs Purdue. Only hit 60 in 40 full minutes tonight
-
2005.. lose to 14 seed as a 3
2006...Lose to a 13 as a 4
2007... Lose to a 2 as a 1
2010...Lose to a 9 as a 1
2011.. lose to 11 as a 1 in E8
2013.. lose to 4 as 1 in S16
2014...Lose to 10 as 2 in RD32
2015...Lose to 7 as 2 in RD32
2016..Lose to 2 as a 1 in E8
2017..Lose to 3 as a 1 in E8.
So Self...
Has lost 2 rounds early in 6 seasons (According to the seed)
Also lost to a team 10 spots lower (1 vs 11) another year
-
Six 1 seeds say far more about his coaching ability than the number of final fours
no really when you're pretty much guaranteed a 9-0 conference home slate.
-
Six 1 seeds say far more about his coaching ability than the number of final fours
no really when you're pretty much guaranteed a 9-0 conference home slate.
And 3-4 losses turned into wins solely by horribly shady officiating
-
Basketball predictions blog guy:
I've debunked these sorts of narratives before, and the way to analyze NCAA Tournament performance is to use Performance Against Seed Expectation. How has Self done? As a Kansas coach, he's been expected to win 37.4 games and has won 33. If we throw in his other coaching stops he's been expected to win 45.3 games and has won 43. In other words, he's won ever so slightly fewer games than expected against some extraordinarily good seeds. In 14 seasons he's had a 1 seed seven times and has never been below a 4 seed. That is remarkable.
So don't fall for these sorts of dumb narratives about coaches. The reason Self's tournament losses are always upsets is because he's always favored. The coach who has the most losses in upsets, or who loses the most in late NCAA Tournament rounds, is by definition a fantastic coach. You've got to get to those games to lose them.
-
I don't know, ku fans spent all season pointing out how they're the only school to win 13 conference titles in a row besides UCLA. It's only fair that we let them do that, but also compare their NCAA tournament records in those 13 seasons.
UCLA 1967-79 vs KU 2005-17
NCAA titles
UCLA: 8
KU: 1
Final Four
UCLA: 10
KU: 2
Elite 8
UCLA: 11
KU: 6
-
Between all the KU fans who want Self fired. Between all the fans who conjure up unbelievable excuses as to why they can't get it done with every possible advantage . . . combined with their Baylor Lite mentality.
It really is hard to TSC. #frown
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I don't know, ku fans spent all season pointing out how they're the only school to win 13 conference titles in a row besides UCLA. It's only fair that we let them do that, but also compare their NCAA tournament records in those 13 seasons.
UCLA 1967-79 vs KU 2005-17
NCAA titles
UCLA: 8
KU: 1
Final Four
UCLA: 10
KU: 2
Elite 8
UCLA: 11
KU: 6
It is remarkable that difference, though I would like to point out that UCLA was in a tourny with anywhere between 22 to 40 teams during it's run. Not saying that the lesser amount of teams/rounds is the major reason why UCLA got so many titles and FF (if it did, then why did no other team even come close to that, including the mighty squacks), but there needs to be a slight handicapped added to it.
Expansion of field:
1953–1974: varied between 22 and 25 teams
1975–1978: 32 teams
1979: 40 teams
-
Six 1 seeds say far more about his coaching ability than the number of final fours
no really when you're pretty much guaranteed a 9-0 conference home slate.
And 3-4 losses turned into wins solely by horribly shady officiating
What a couple of dip shits
-
Six 1 seeds say far more about his coaching ability than the number of final fours
no really when you're pretty much guaranteed a 9-0 conference home slate.
And 3-4 losses turned into wins solely by horribly shady officiating
What a couple of dip shits
Yeah those stats that Fan posted last year or the year before showing a clear bias are bullshit too.
Because nothing says everything is on the level like the most highly rated basketball conference (or top 3) consistently having only one team that can protect home court for over a DECADE.
-
#firebillself
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
-
I actually left out the 07 team. They were also a 1 seed. So he's had a 1 seed 7x at Ku ( I made changes above)
Incredible run being a 1 or 2 seed 10 of the last 11 seasons. But the 2 FFs have Ku fans angered, and it probably should
-
Name the coaches and teams with more tournament wins than KU and bill self since his first NCAA appearance with KU in 2004
-
I think the protection they get at Allen hurts them in the tournament.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Point made WW.
-
The coaches above him are coaches at schools above KU.
-
The coaches above him are coaches at schools above KU.
KU fans probably wouldn't accept that statement but it is 100% true. Being in the Top 5 is insanely good.
-
Well KU fans a bit crazy. UConn has more titles than them for goodness sakes. All within the last 20 years.
-
Name the coaches and teams with more tournament wins than KU and bill self since his first NCAA appearance with KU in 2004
Self has 33 from 04-17
Cal has 40, Roy has 39. Those are the top 2. Someone will get another W as they play today
Cal will be getting his 6th FF or Roy his 5th FF, in that 14 year span
-
Pretty elite company for Self. He is truly one of the greats.
-
Pretty elite company for Self. He is truly one of the greats.
He is a great coach.
I know Ku would rather have 31 wins, 3 FF and 2 titles. That's what Coach K did
Calhoun also had 3 FF and 2 titles, and he did that from 04' til his retirement following 12' season
-
Pretty elite company for Self. He is truly one of the greats.
He is a great coach.
I know Ku would rather have 31 wins, 3 FF and 2 titles. That's what Coach K did
Calhoun also had 3 FF and 2 titles, and he did that from 04' til his retirement following 12' season
LOL you act like Self chose overall tourney wins over national titles
-
I've came a cross many way ways to troll lil brother, but I found out Saturday night, the easiest way to get under their skin, is to quack your ass off when Oregon is on a run.
-
Losing in the E8 means you got to the E8 a lot and played good teams. No shame in that. The shame is letting your team get away with that level of criminal activity and not having anything to show for it.
-
Is there any team with a worse 1 seed to FF ratio? Anybody even close?
Fabulous recruiting, good coaching, and a little help from the refs here and there (success breeds success) has built a dynasty in the B12, but it doesn't translate to winning 5 or 6 straight against good non-con teams and refs who DNGAF about "Kansas" on the jersey come tourney time.
If you're a KU fan, do you really care? You may be the poorest billionaire but that pretty much says it all.
-
So you're saying ku is lower upper class?
-
Bill Self is the best coach in Big 12 history. Not that close.
-
The big 12 has won one championship in the last like 30 years. KU is consistently over seeded bc they play in a terrible conference.
-
This chart gives you all the information you need for current coaches and NCAA tournament wins and winning percentage.
http://www.dbwoerner.com/basketball/coaches/coach117.html
Self is still an elite coach at 43-18 in the tournament during his career.
And our guy oscar is 30th on the list at 12-11.
On the all time list (not including this year) including coaches with at least 20 NCAA games, Self is #11.
http://www.dbwoerner.com/basketball/coaches/all_116.html
oscar is #54. (not bad guys)
-
So you're saying ku is lower upper class?
I bet they blame the NCAA (gubment) for their terrible seeding/refs (taxes) instead of their own failure to truly make it to the next level, which is rigged by those dasterdly bluest blue bloods of the college basketball world.
Yes
-
Self is a good coach. But you have to call out that performance Saturday. They had 3 warm up games, were barely pushed in all of them, they had the best home court advantage in the tourney playing in an extremely friendly and familiar venue.
For KU and their so called depth issues the B12 and NCAA tourney couldn't have been a better scenario for making the FF.
Let's hope the spoiled children of KU tshirt nation continue to whine and Bill decides to move on.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
This chart gives you all the information you need for current coaches and NCAA tournament wins and winning percentage.
http://www.dbwoerner.com/basketball/coaches/coach117.html
Self is still an elite coach at 43-18 in the tournament during his career.
And our guy oscar is 30th on the list at 12-11.
On the all time list (not including this year) including coaches with at least 20 NCAA games, Self is #11.
http://www.dbwoerner.com/basketball/coaches/all_116.html
oscar is #54. (not bad guys)
Look at #5 :-/
-
This chart gives you all the information you need for current coaches and NCAA tournament wins and winning percentage.
http://www.dbwoerner.com/basketball/coaches/coach117.html
Self is still an elite coach at 43-18 in the tournament during his career.
And our guy oscar is 30th on the list at 12-11.
On the all time list (not including this year) including coaches with at least 20 NCAA games, Self is #11.
http://www.dbwoerner.com/basketball/coaches/all_116.html
oscar is #54. (not bad guys)
Look at #5 :-/
Yeah.
Back to KU; they had 3 of their best 5 offensive efficiency games of the year in the first 3 games of the tournament. Then they came crashing down to their worst efficiency game of the year vs Oregon. It happens.
-
There are some things that don't add up here
The big12 is one of the best basketball conferences
Ku has dominated the big 12
The big 12 and ku have underperformed in the tourney
Ku is seeded 1 or 2 a lot
What is happening here
-
So you're saying ku is lower upper class?
I'd say "lowest of the upperest upper class"
Here's some fun with numbers:
Since the modern tournament began in 1985, KU is tied with Kentucky for the third most Final Four appearances at 8. Duke has 12. North Carolina has 11.
KU is also tied with North Carolina for most 1-seeds received in the modern tournament (13).
But of all the teams to receive a 1-seed at least 5 times, KU hasn't fared so well in reaching the Final Four. That would be North Carolina (9-13), Michigan State (3-5), Duke (6-12), Kentucky (5-10), UConn (2-5), Kansas (3-13), Oklahoma (1-5), and Arizona (1-6). Bill Seff's record is 1-7!
So congrats KU, overall you've amassed a lot of Final Four appearances, but you also choke a lot more often than the other elite teams, but not as bad as Arizona (holy crap - 1 for 6 ?!), except that Bill Seff's record alone is even worse than Arizona.
Looking at KU and Oklahoma, it kinda looks like the B12 conference champ is quite frequently over-seeded...
-
There are some things that don't add up here
The big12 is one of the best basketball conferences
Ku has dominated the big 12
The big 12 and ku have underperformed in the tourney
Ku is seeded 1 or 2 a lot
What is happening here
Ask Charles Barkley: it's all about matchups.
-
KU Men's Basketball needs a slogan to describe its amazing combination of B12 dominance and tourney chokiness. Here are a few obvious candidates....
"KU: Worst of the Bluebloods"
"KU: Like a gold bar at the bottom of a porta potty"
"KU: Staff up the women's shelter, it's March Madness (or any Friday night with KU players)"
-
It's just really hard to win at kansas, I don't really think you can blame self
-
It's just really hard to win at kansas, I don't really think you can blame self
So true
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
2004-2017.....
Self, 14 tourneys. Ave seed 1.9
Coach K, 14 tourneys. Ave seed 2.1
Roy, 13 tourneys. Ave seed 2.8
Cal, 12 tourneys. Ave seed 2.8
Pitino, 12 tourneys. Ave seed 4.3
Izzo , 14 tourneys. Ave seed 5.4
Record in S16 & E8 games...
Roy 13-4
Cal 14-5
Pitino 9-4
Self 9-7
Izzo 7-4
Coach K 7-6
Self and Coach K have both have had teams consistently get great seeds but have struggled in that 2nd weekend. Coach K does have the 2 titles.
-
2004-2017.....
Self, 14 tourneys. Ave seed 1.9 1 Title, 2 FF
Coach K, 14 tourneys. Ave seed 2.1 2 Titles, 3 FF
Roy, 13 tourneys. Ave seed 2.8 2 Titles (and maybe a third), 5 FFs
Cal, 12 tourneys. Ave seed 2.8 1 Title, 5 FFs
Pitino, 12 tourneys. Ave seed 4.3 1 Title, 3 FFs
Izzo , 14 tourneys. Ave seed 5.4 0 Titles, 4 FFs
Record in S16 & E8 games...
Roy 13-4
Cal 14-5
Pitino 9-4
Self 9-7
Izzo 7-4
Coach K 7-6
Self and Coach K have both have had teams consistently get great seeds but have struggled in that 2nd weekend. Coach K does have the 2 titles.
Added a little info to your post. Bill Self is a great coach, but he's not the same level of great as the other gentlemen you listed.
-
2004-2017.....
Self, 14 tourneys. Ave seed 1.9 1 Title, 2 FF
Coach K, 14 tourneys. Ave seed 2.1 2 Titles, 3 FF
Roy, 13 tourneys. Ave seed 2.8 2 Titles (and maybe a third), 5 FFs
Cal, 12 tourneys. Ave seed 2.8 1 Title, 5 FFs
Pitino, 12 tourneys. Ave seed 4.3 1 Title, 3 FFs
Izzo , 14 tourneys. Ave seed 5.4 0 Titles, 4 FFs
Record in S16 & E8 games...
Roy 13-4
Cal 14-5
Pitino 9-4
Self 9-7
Izzo 7-4
Coach K 7-6
Self and Coach K have both have had teams consistently get great seeds but have struggled in that 2nd weekend. Coach K does have the 2 titles.
Added a little info to your post. Bill Self is a great coach, but he's not the same level of great as the other gentlemen you listed.
Who played for the title in 2012?
-
Greg Marshall has a losing record in the Torn-a-ment
Coach K has won 91 games -- that is astounding.
-
2004-2017.....
Self, 14 tourneys. Ave seed 1.9 1 Title, 2 FF
Coach K, 14 tourneys. Ave seed 2.1 2 Titles, 3 FF
Roy, 13 tourneys. Ave seed 2.8 2 Titles (and maybe a third), 5 FFs
Cal, 12 tourneys. Ave seed 2.8 1 Title, 5 FFs
Pitino, 12 tourneys. Ave seed 4.3 1 Title, 3 FFs
Izzo , 14 tourneys. Ave seed 5.4 0 Titles, 4 FFs
Record in S16 & E8 games...
Roy 13-4
Cal 14-5
Pitino 9-4
Self 9-7
Izzo 7-4
Coach K 7-6
Self and Coach K have both have had teams consistently get great seeds but have struggled in that 2nd weekend. Coach K does have the 2 titles.
Added a little info to your post. Bill Self is a great coach, but he's not the same level of great as the other gentlemen you listed.
Who played for the title in 2012?
It was so great watching Davis completely own TRob. Gosh, what a day.
-
I got banned from the phog for saying davis deserved poty :frown:
-
04'-17'....
A top 4 seed --
Self 14
Coach K 13
Roy 11
Cal 10
Pitino 9
Izzo 5
Times your team lost 2 rounds early (top 4 seed), according to seed --
Self - 6 times in the 14 years
Coach K - 7 times in 13 years
Roy - 0 times in 11 years
Cal - 0 times in 10 years
Pitino - 2 times in 9 years
Izzo - 2 times in 5 years
Times your team advanced to what your seed indicated (or advanced farther)
Self - 4 times in 14 years
Coach K - 5 times in 13 years
Roy - 8 times in 11 years
Cal - 6 times in 10 years
Pitino- 6 times in 9 years
Izzo - 3 times in 5 years
-
I got banned from the phog for saying davis deserved poty :frown:
Before or after the game? Just realized that game was in NO and Davis is now a PCan
-
brown topic is brown.
-
off the top of my head I would say there are only a few times Self was beat by a less talented team - The killer Bs for sure, VCU, UNI and Stanford. The rest of the time the other team has at least as much talent and usually a real pro that will actually be important players in the NBA and not jags like X Henry, Robinson and Aldrich, etc. So I would consider recruiting to the primary thing letting Bill down.
-
off the top of my head I would say there are only a few times Self was beat by a less talented team - The killer Bs for sure, VCU, UNI and Stanford. The rest of the time the other team has at least as much talent and usually a real pro that will actually be important players in the NBA and not jags like X Henry, Robinson and Aldrich, etc. So I would consider recruiting to the primary thing letting Bill down.
lol wut
-
04'-17'....
A top 4 seed --
Self 14
Coach K 13
Roy 11
Cal 10
Pitino 9
Izzo 5
Times your team lost 2 rounds early (top 4 seed), according to seed --
Self - 6 times in the 14 years
Coach K - 7 times in 13 years
Roy - 0 times in 11 years
Cal - 0 times in 10 years
Pitino - 2 times in 9 years
Izzo - 2 times in 5 years
Times your team advanced to what your seed indicated (or advanced farther)
Self - 4 times in 14 years
Coach K - 5 times in 13 years
Roy - 8 times in 11 years
Cal - 6 times in 10 years
Pitino- 6 times in 9 years
Izzo - 3 times in 5 years
These numbers basically just firm up the perception that KU is often overseeded due to their stranglehold on the Big12. Would more even-handed officiating at Allen help prepare KU to be more competitive in the tournament? Science says yes.
-
KU gets what they deserve. Nothing more. Nothing less. They clutch onto old ass dudes like Phog Allen and Naismith, build shrines to them, and claim helms titles. Even with Helms titles they only have one more title than UConn has in the past 20 years. They own the big 12 and not much else.
I do however love the monk like rock chalk jayhawk chant to close out games.
They have a solid program. They are a perennial top 10 team.
Sidenote: I dont understand why people on here say lawrentucky. Lexington and Louisville are so far beyond Lawrence it's not even funny.
-
Update:
14 Top 4 seeds at Ku. Wins from S16 and on....12
11 Top 4 seeds at UNC. Wins from S16 and on ...20
Roy vs Self. Not really a comparison now is it.
Roy is now 25-8 in S16/E8/F4/NC games since 2002. Great Tourney coach.
-
Update:
14 Top 4 seeds at Ku. Wins from S16 and on....12
11 Top 4 seeds at UNC. Wins from S16 and on ...20
Roy vs Self. Not really a comparison now is it.
Roy is now 25-8 in S16/E8/F4/NC games since 2002. Great Tourney coach.
Roy is one of the all time greats. I can't believe how many times he choked at KU. Maybe its the school not the coach.
-
Update:
14 Top 4 seeds at Ku. Wins from S16 and on....12
11 Top 4 seeds at UNC. Wins from S16 and on ...20
Roy vs Self. Not really a comparison now is it.
Roy is now 25-8 in S16/E8/F4/NC games since 2002. Great Tourney coach.
Roy is one of the all time greats. I can't believe how many times he choked at KU. Maybe its the school not the coach.
I hope my post wasn't confusing. That is Self at Ku/Roy at UNC. But Roy did have his struggles at Ku too. 4 times as a 1 seed that lost in RD of 32 or S16, plus lost as a 2 in 2nd Round.
Roy 9 FFs in last 27 years. Coach K 12 FFs in last 32 years. Studs!!
-
Congrats to former KU coach Roy Williams and his Tar Heels! Here's to a true blue blood program hanging another banner. :cheers:
-
Just amazing what Roy has done since leaving KU. 5 Final Fours and 3 National Championships. Was KU holding him back?
-
Just amazing what Roy has done since leaving KU. 5 Final Fours and 3 National Championships. Was KU holding him back?
I think you can now say that Roy is one of the top 5 coaches of all time.
I'd go Wooden, K, Rupp, Roy, Knight.
All time coaches, not including this season: http://www.dbwoerner.com/basketball/coaches/all_116.html
Current coaches, including this season: http://www.dbwoerner.com/basketball/coaches/coach117.html
-
Just amazing what Roy has done since leaving KU. 5 Final Fours and 3 National Championships. Was KU holding him back?
But all those recruiting advantages! Being so close to a mid-major city like KC that no one really wants to make the 30 minute drive to any of the fun stuff! The Phog! Dat Setting :love: It has nothing to do with coaching at all! Nevermind in '88 K-State was arguably a better program and it came crashing down cause heyseeds!
-
Just amazing what Roy has done since leaving KU. 5 Final Fours and 3 National Championships. Was KU holding him back?
But all those recruiting advantages! Being so close to a mid-major city like KC that no one really wants to make the 30 minute drive to any of the fun stuff! The Phog! Dat Setting :love: It has nothing to do with coaching at all! Nevermind in '88 K-State was arguably a better program and it came crashing down cause heyseeds!
i'm not really sure what's going on with this trainwreck of a post but roy actually had a higher winning percentage at ku than he does at unc and self has a higher winning percentage than roy did while at ku
-
Just amazing what Roy has done since leaving KU. 5 Final Fours and 3 National Championships. Was KU holding him back?
But all those recruiting advantages! Being so close to a mid-major city like KC that no one really wants to make the 30 minute drive to any of the fun stuff! The Phog! Dat Setting :love: It has nothing to do with coaching at all! Nevermind in '88 K-State was arguably a better program and it came crashing down cause heyseeds!
i'm not really sure what's going on with this trainwreck of a post but roy actually had a higher winning percentage at ku than he does at unc and self has a higher winning percentage than roy did while at ku
Who cares about National Championships and Final Fours when you can have a higher winning percentage. :love:
-
They made too many klutzsy turnovers in the last game and had too many clankers. The Ku Klutz Klankers.
-
Ku klutz klankers vs the clankmigos would be a hell of a game