goemaw.com
General Discussion => The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit => Topic started by: chum1 on March 02, 2016, 12:03:35 AM
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Ben Ginsberg was on MSNBC talking as though the Republican Party will try to make this happen and align delegates for a non-Trump candidate.
That would be AMAZING.
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Won't ever happen. The voter backlash would be yuuuuuge. Make your head spin.
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Yeah Drumpf would run as a 3rd and destroy the party in the general.
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I'm all in.
these forecasters assign some probability — a median of 15 percent — to the possibility that no candidate wins enough delegates to win the first vote at the convention, which could lead to a nominee other than Trump. Usually these sorts of “contested” or “brokered” convention scenarios are hype or a fun parlor game. This year, the chance of such a scenario may be higher.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/03/01/what-is-the-chance-that-trump-dominates-super-tuesday-but-doesnt-win-the-nomination/
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I am 100% all in as well
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I think the pubs prefer Hillary to Donald so I guess it would be kind of a win.
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I guess if Hillary wins nothing changes for four years. I can't imagine Hillary our Donald being re elected
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Why? Who is waiting in the wings?
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Elizabeth Warren for the dems.
Marco Rubio or the speaker of the house for pubs
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I guess if Hillary wins nothing changes for four years. I can't imagine Hillary our Donald being re elected
If Hillary wins, that means also almost certainly means the Dems take the Senate. Plenty of things change for the worse. To the extent things stay the same, that's nearly as bad. See Doomsday thread.
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What is on her platform that isn't status quo?
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What is on her platform that isn't status quo?
Ok. I guess I'll start with The Liar. She wins, meaning the GOP loses the Senate, too.
The Liar's Department of Justice refuses to prosecute her for mishandling classified information. Numerous career FBI agents resign in protest.
She quickly nominates, and the Senate confirms, a fifth "Living Constitution" liberal to the Supreme Court. The "rule of law" is over, because what a law says no longer matters. All that matters is advancing liberal policy. The Liar quickly proceeds with amnesty by executive order, which the Supreme Court upholds 5-4. Poverty pours into the United States at an unprecedented level, drugs and crime soars, and state and local resources are overwhelmed (more so than they already are).
Likewise, liberal policy on restricting energy consumption in the name of "fighting global warming" proceeds via administrative regulation, unchecked by the courts. Price of electricity (the vast majority of which comes from coal) skyrockets higher than even its current rate of increase. OPEC, realizing that the liberals now have a chokehold on US oil production, reverses its policy of flooding the market, quickly escalating gas prices.
Obamacare continues unabated - requiring greater and greater infusions of tax dollars to keep the insurance companies afloat. As premiums continue to soar and access to doctors continues to diminish, The Liar promises single payer healthcare - Medicaid for all. With her new, stronger majority thanks to executive amnesty, she wins reelection easily in 2020. Taxes on income over $90,000 increase significantly to pay for the new Medicaid. Oddly, access to doctors does not improve, and the quality of healthcare continues to decline.
Thanks to a bevy of new employment regulations - including the requirement that all firings first be approved by the newly minted National Anti-Discrimination Agency - employers are increasingly cautious about hiring. Labor Force Participation rate continues to decline, but good news! - the "unemployment rate" remains around 5-6% because those people aren't looking for work and therefore aren't counted.
The national debt continues to grow by at least $600 billion per year. The GOP house, despite frequent sabre rattling over government shutdowns, continues to ultimately cave on massive omnibus spending bills - at least until 2018 when their House majority is swept away.
The Middle East continues to burn - do your really think it's going to get better? - spreading radical Islamic terrorism around the world.
That's a start at least. I'm obviously not anticipating everything.
Granted - you could call a lot of this "status quo," or at least status quo on steroids. It's pretty bad, whatever you want to call it.
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Almost all of that is status quo, K-S-U.
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Lol
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I guess if Hillary wins nothing changes for four years. I can't imagine Hillary our Donald being re elected
If Hillary wins, that means also almost certainly means the Dems take the Senate. Plenty of things change for the worse. To the extent things stay the same, that's nearly as bad. See Doomsday thread.
That doesn't make sense at all. Establishment pubs would push to hold the line at the House and Senate and not vote for Prez/Trump recognizing that Hillary is the lesser of two presidential evils and they can prevent any real action like they have for 6 years of Obama's presidency.
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What is on her platform that isn't status quo?
Ok. I guess I'll start with The Liar. She wins, meaning the GOP loses the Senate, too.
The Liar's Department of Justice refuses to prosecute her for mishandling classified information. Numerous career FBI agents resign in protest.
She quickly nominates, and the Senate confirms, a fifth "Living Constitution" liberal to the Supreme Court. The "rule of law" is over, because what a law says no longer matters. All that matters is advancing liberal policy. The Liar quickly proceeds with amnesty by executive order, which the Supreme Court upholds 5-4. Poverty pours into the United States at an unprecedented level, drugs and crime soars, and state and local resources are overwhelmed (more so than they already are).
Likewise, liberal policy on restricting energy consumption in the name of "fighting global warming" proceeds via administrative regulation, unchecked by the courts. Price of electricity (the vast majority of which comes from coal) skyrockets higher than even its current rate of increase. OPEC, realizing that the liberals now have a chokehold on US oil production, reverses its policy of flooding the market, quickly escalating gas prices.
Obamacare continues unabated - requiring greater and greater infusions of tax dollars to keep the insurance companies afloat. As premiums continue to soar and access to doctors continues to diminish, The Liar promises single payer healthcare - Medicaid for all. With her new, stronger majority thanks to executive amnesty, she wins reelection easily in 2020. Taxes on income over $90,000 increase significantly to pay for the new Medicaid. Oddly, access to doctors does not improve, and the quality of healthcare continues to decline.
Thanks to a bevy of new employment regulations - including the requirement that all firings first be approved by the newly minted National Anti-Discrimination Agency - employers are increasingly cautious about hiring. Labor Force Participation rate continues to decline, but good news! - the "unemployment rate" remains around 5-6% because those people aren't looking for work and therefore aren't counted.
The national debt continues to grow by at least $600 billion per year. The GOP house, despite frequent sabre rattling over government shutdowns, continues to ultimately cave on massive omnibus spending bills - at least until 2018 when their House majority is swept away.
The Middle East continues to burn - do your really think it's going to get better? - spreading radical Islamic terrorism around the world.
That's a start at least. I'm obviously not anticipating everything.
Granted - you could call a lot of this "status quo," or at least status quo on steroids. It's pretty bad, whatever you want to call it.
This was a joy to read. A lot of assumptions and leaps of faith, and the vast majority of our electiricity doesn't come from coal. It was 38% in 2014 and dropping. Or maybe we have different definitions of vast majority.
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What is on her platform that isn't status quo?
Ok. I guess I'll start with The Liar. She wins, meaning the GOP loses the Senate, too.
The Liar's Department of Justice refuses to prosecute her for mishandling classified information. Numerous career FBI agents resign in protest.
She quickly nominates, and the Senate confirms, a fifth "Living Constitution" liberal to the Supreme Court. The "rule of law" is over, because what a law says no longer matters. All that matters is advancing liberal policy. The Liar quickly proceeds with amnesty by executive order, which the Supreme Court upholds 5-4. Poverty pours into the United States at an unprecedented level, drugs and crime soars, and state and local resources are overwhelmed (more so than they already are).
Likewise, liberal policy on restricting energy consumption in the name of "fighting global warming" proceeds via administrative regulation, unchecked by the courts. Price of electricity (the vast majority of which comes from coal) skyrockets higher than even its current rate of increase. OPEC, realizing that the liberals now have a chokehold on US oil production, reverses its policy of flooding the market, quickly escalating gas prices.
Obamacare continues unabated - requiring greater and greater infusions of tax dollars to keep the insurance companies afloat. As premiums continue to soar and access to doctors continues to diminish, The Liar promises single payer healthcare - Medicaid for all. With her new, stronger majority thanks to executive amnesty, she wins reelection easily in 2020. Taxes on income over $90,000 increase significantly to pay for the new Medicaid. Oddly, access to doctors does not improve, and the quality of healthcare continues to decline.
Thanks to a bevy of new employment regulations - including the requirement that all firings first be approved by the newly minted National Anti-Discrimination Agency - employers are increasingly cautious about hiring. Labor Force Participation rate continues to decline, but good news! - the "unemployment rate" remains around 5-6% because those people aren't looking for work and therefore aren't counted.
The national debt continues to grow by at least $600 billion per year. The GOP house, despite frequent sabre rattling over government shutdowns, continues to ultimately cave on massive omnibus spending bills - at least until 2018 when their House majority is swept away.
The Middle East continues to burn - do your really think it's going to get better? - spreading radical Islamic terrorism around the world.
That's a start at least. I'm obviously not anticipating everything.
Granted - you could call a lot of this "status quo," or at least status quo on steroids. It's pretty bad, whatever you want to call it.
This was a joy to read. A lot of assumptions and leaps of faith, and the vast majority of our electiricity doesn't come from coal. It was 38% in 2014 and dropping. Or maybe we have different definitions of vast majority.
Sorry, should have said "fossil fuels."
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Last Wednesday evening in New York, according to CNN, Rubio campaign manager Terry Sullivan met privately with a group of supporters and top donors to chart Rubio’s path forward heading into Super Tuesday after abysmal performances from the first-term Florid Senator so far. During the meeting, Sullivan walked Rubio’s money men through the scenario he envisions he will use to stop Trump.
An audio recording of Sullivan giving the powerpoint presentation obtained exclusively by Breitbart News shows Sullivan plotting for a brokered convention.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/03/02/exclusive-audio-rubio-campaign-manager-plots-brokered-convention-in-manhattan-donor-meeting-to-take-nomination-from-trump/
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Romney all in.
http://www.vox.com/mischiefs-of-faction/2016/3/3/11152448/romney-suggests-brokered-convention
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This is going to be great. half of the party will lose their crap and break off. mass chaos.
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the party will essentially be telling their low/mediums (not the cruz low/mediums) that their vote isn't worth a crap and they know what's best for them. amaze.
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the party will essentially be telling their low/mediums (not the cruz low/mediums) that their vote isn't worth a crap and they know what's best for them. amaze.
I am going to fully charge my phone so I can periscope the ks caucus.
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the party will essentially be telling their low/mediums (not the cruz low/mediums) that their vote isn't worth a crap and they know what's best for them. amaze.
I am going to fully charge my phone so I can periscope the ks caucus.
This would be better in someplace like Garden city or Olathe but will take.
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If the party can keep Trump from getting 1,237, I'd think converting delegates would be relatively easy for them. That kind of stuff is the bread and butter of politicians. And Trump doesn't know jack crap about it.
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"Frankly, if I win Ohio, we're probably gonna end up in a convention -- a brokered convention -- and then we're gonna find out who the adult is," Kasich said
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-kasich-if-i-win-ohio-gop-will-get-a-brokered-convention/
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Rubio is such a worthless POS for losing Florida.
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Rubio is such a worthless POS for losing Florida.
Yeah, he should have dropped out after super Tuesday.
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Would a brokered convention be resolved by dick measuring or pissing contest?
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Would a brokered convention be resolved by dick measuring or pissing contest?
hand measuring
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No one is more all in than Romney.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/08/politics/mitt-romney-marco-rubio-robocalls/
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No one is more all in than Romney.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/08/politics/mitt-romney-marco-rubio-robocalls/
They probably just sound recorded. I'll bet Mitt is making those calls personally.
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c'mon kasich. you can get 2nd in michigan. go, go.
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After watching a certain political drama on a streaming video service and seeing what kind of absolute chaos a contested convention might be has me rooting for this.
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rubio's gotta win hawaii. and it'd be good if he doesn't get completely murdered in idaho. i'm glad the michigan voters went kasich over rubio, but my god, that poor man.
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special reserve really howard dean'd this thing
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mississippi is a disaster, my god.
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Yeah. Big win for HFP2016 in Miss.
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a very bad night for the brokered convention. and that's assuming hawaii makes it a bad night instead of a complete disaster.
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What is stopping pledged Donald J Trump delegates from voting their conscience at the convention?
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What is stopping pledged Donald J Trump delegates from voting their conscience at the convention?
Politics. Delegates are hand picked by the party.
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What is stopping pledged Donald J Trump delegates from voting their conscience at the convention?
Politics. Delegates are hand picked by the party.
By the party or the candidates? If it's the party, this could be how they trump trump.
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hmmmm
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What is stopping pledged Donald J Trump delegates from voting their conscience at the convention?
Politics. Delegates are hand picked by the party.
By the party or the candidates? If it's the party, this could be how they trump trump.
Party
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a very bad night for the brokered convention. and that's assuming hawaii makes it a bad night instead of a complete disaster.
hawaii went ahead and voted for complete disaster.
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:Woot:
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i guess this is the kasich thread?
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EXCLUSIVE: Paul Ryan won't categorically rule out accepting GOP nomination
if a deadlocked convention turns to him https://t.co/kuxSyWEDZg
:Wha:
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I would like a complete list of all persons who haven't ruled out accepting the nomination. So I can plan.
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i think i'm free that weekend
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/wild-card-for-trump-who-gets-to-be-a-convention-delegate/2016/03/16/1d703326-eb78-11e5-b0fd-073d5930a7b7_story.html
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/wild-card-for-trump-who-gets-to-be-a-convention-delegate/2016/03/16/1d703326-eb78-11e5-b0fd-073d5930a7b7_story.html
This could get really, really interesting.
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Has Paul Ryan won at least 8 states?
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“In fact, that's not a rule,” former RNC lawyer Ben Ginsberg — the party's preeminent election law expert — told MSNBC early Wednesday morning. “That's part of what's called the temporary rules. Each convention has to pass for itself the number of states that put a candidate's name in nomination.”
In 2012, revisions to Rule 40 raised the required number of states from five to eight, but no number is in effect for the Cleveland convention, according to Ginsberg. “The 2016 convention and its rules committee has to make that decision,” he said. “So there is no eight-state rule in effect right now for the next convention.”
http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/03/ben-ginsberg-republican-contested-convention-rules-220499
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“In fact, that's not a rule,” former RNC lawyer Ben Ginsberg — the party's preeminent election law expert — told MSNBC early Wednesday morning. “That's part of what's called the temporary rules. Each convention has to pass for itself the number of states that put a candidate's name in nomination.”
In 2012, revisions to Rule 40 raised the required number of states from five to eight, but no number is in effect for the Cleveland convention, according to Ginsberg. “The 2016 convention and its rules committee has to make that decision,” he said. “So there is no eight-state rule in effect right now for the next convention.”
http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-gop-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/03/ben-ginsberg-republican-contested-convention-rules-220499
Saw an interview tonight with a member of the standing rules committee. He confirmed that the 2012 rules are in effect only until the committee meets a week before the upcoming convention. The committee can, at that meeting, keep the 2012 rules intact or can change them, including the number of delegates required for nomination. This could get even more interesting than it is now.
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I don't know who this Erick Erickson hero is.
we recognize that it took Abraham Lincoln three ballots at the Republican convention in 1860 to become the party’s nominee and if it is good enough for Lincoln, that process should be good enough for all the candidates without threats of riots
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/03/17/erick-erickson-anti-trump-group-calls-for-brokered-convention/
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trump didn't make a threat, he expressed a concern.
media :curse:
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I don't think anyone really knows what the rules at the convention are. I think it's going to be no holds barred.
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The house of reps is crap brain city
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The house of reps is crap brain city
Yea, wtf Memphis
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What if I told you that Hilary would still win
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It could work if the third part was the right person. Plenty of us cringing at pres hillary and down right fearful of a pres trump.
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An RNC official working on convention planning said party insiders increasingly expect Trump to be the nominee, which impacts how hard people really want to push a lost cause.
"Lee Atwater always told us, 'If it's happening, be for it,'" said the official, speaking on the condition of anonymity. "This is happening."
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-aides-plot-two-phase-strategy-win-potential-contested-convention-n545231
:flush:
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A brokered convention is just a liberal dream. It won't happen.
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A brokered convention is just a liberal dream. It won't happen.
on Opposite Day? A liberal dream is trump going third party or a moderate conservative going third party if trump gets the nod.
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The brokered convention is dead, the establishment has moved on to a 3rd party spoiler
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A brokered convention is just a liberal dream. It won't happen.
on Opposite Day? A liberal dream is trump going third party or a moderate conservative going third party if trump gets the nod.
The only way trump goes third party is if there is a brokered convention.
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Kasich could probably win a few rust belt states as a third party. Meaning the 3rd party thing is only 84% hair-brained.
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Kasich could probably win a few rust belt states as a third party. Meaning the 3rd party thing is only 84% hair-brained.
FSD, does this mean Hillary is set to win?
No, she has some pretty well known problems. This being the year of the outsider, I don't think any "establishment" candidate can rely upon "conventional wisdom".
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I hope and pray so. The Republican convention will be like circus act of spaztic clowns. Outside will be no better than anarchy.
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If they allow open or conceal carry, this may actually be a good alternative ending to Idiocracy
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https://www.change.org/p/quicken-loans-arena-allow-open-carry-of-firearms-at-the-quicken-loans-arena-during-the-rnc-convention-in-july-2
Sign the petition.
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What will be the trigger where they all simultaneously shoot each other? Also, will it be accidental? Like the occasional story where the old guy shoots his wife as he is sitting down at a restaurant and his gun falls out and goes off when it hits the floor? I mean, it would certainly be more entertaining that way.
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What will be the trigger where they all simultaneously shoot each other? Also, will it be accidental? Like the occasional story where the old guy shoots his wife as he is sitting down at a restaurant and his gun falls out and goes off when it hits the floor? I mean, it would certainly be more entertaining that way.
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It will be civil until Trump gets the nomination taken from him.
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What will be the trigger where they all simultaneously shoot each other? Also, will it be accidental? Like the occasional story where the old guy shoots his wife as he is sitting down at a restaurant and his gun falls out and goes off when it hits the floor? I mean, it would certainly be more entertaining that way.
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It will be civil until Trump gets the nomination taken from him.
So, thats when everyone's gun will accidentally fall out of their pants, go off, and shoot the person next to them, killing everyone in the arena?
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What will be the trigger where they all simultaneously shoot each other? Also, will it be accidental? Like the occasional story where the old guy shoots his wife as he is sitting down at a restaurant and his gun falls out and goes off when it hits the floor? I mean, it would certainly be more entertaining that way.
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It will be civil until Trump gets the nomination taken from him.
So, thats when everyone's gun will accidentally fall out of their pants, go off, and shoot the person next to them, killing everyone in the arena?
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I think that is when voices get raised and a whole bunch of ground gets stood.
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I bet they don't allow guns, proving how hypocritical they can be.
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What is wrong with you guys?
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Also, lol
https://www.change.org/p/tell-the-fda-to-ban-harmful-synthetic-food-dyes?source_location=discover_feed
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I bet they don't allow guns, proving how hypocritical they can be.
I hope they don't.
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With as violent and radical as the left has become, particularly the occutard Berners, I'm not sure letting guns into anew arena filled with Republicans is a good idea. Of course, I don't revel in the thought of people being shot to death like the violent radical leftists do either.
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With as violent and radical as the left has become, particularly the occutard Berners, I'm not sure letting guns into anew arena filled with Republicans is a good idea. Of course, I don't revel in the thought of people being shot to death like the violent radical leftists do either.
If the leftists want, they will get the guns in there one way or another. Might as well let the people defend themselves
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With as violent and radical as the left has become, particularly the occutard Berners, I'm not sure letting guns into anew arena filled with Republicans is a good idea. Of course, I don't revel in the thought of people being shot to death like the violent radical leftists do either.
I am sure the delegates can handle themselves should some bernsters try and start trouble. unless they are unarmed.
When it is a crime to bring a gun into the convention, only criminals will bring a gun into the convention
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With as violent and radical as the left has become, particularly the occutard Berners, I'm not sure letting guns into anew arena filled with Republicans is a good idea. Of course, I don't revel in the thought of people being shot to death like the violent radical leftists do either.
If the leftists want, they will get the guns in there one way or another. Might as well let the people defend themselves
Yes. Also, Cleveland is a very dangerous city. We can't ask people to walk unarmed from their car to the convention in that hell hole.
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That's a great point. I'm sure the library convention will be 100% powered by sun beams, staffed by the requisite representative blend of minorities, women and LGBT, and have all the corporate money burned center stage. Because that's such a clever hilarious joke.
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I assume everyone will be camping and have arrived in a Chevy volt. Made in Merica
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That's a great point. I'm sure the library convention will be 100% powered by sun beams, staffed by the requisite representative blend of minorities, women and LGBT, and have all the corporate money burned center stage. Because that's such a clever hilarious joke.
The joke is that these people want guns everywhere except where they are meeting. But you're right, it's probably to protect them from the gun toting crazies from the party that supports regulation.
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I assume there will be a lot of cold dead hands pried open if the guns aren't allowed.
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That's a great point. I'm sure the library convention will be 100% powered by sun beams, staffed by the requisite representative blend of minorities, women and LGBT, and have all the corporate money burned center stage. Because that's such a clever hilarious joke.
The joke is that these people want guns everywhere except where they are meeting. But you're right, it's probably to protect them from the gun toting crazies from the party that supports regulation.
My joke equally as clever. Let'stand petition the DNC to run a carbon negative convention without money from the wealthy and staffed entirely based upon demographic, gender identity and serial orientation. It's totally hypocritical for them to have it any other way.
Good grief, if you don't want to be called libtard stop acting like one.
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Have the dems come out saying they want to limit anyone's constitutional rights during their convention? :dunno:
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GOP: Even we don't believe our own bullshit
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You guys aren't handling the analogy very well.
Let's talk about Democrats in office who use tax "loop holes" to avoid paying their "fair share". Should hillary even be allowed to run, has she acknowledged her white privilege? Has every Democrat redistributed their own wealth, do they pay all women the exact same salary as men. Why aren't the party reps 13% black, 22% Hispanic, 62% female, 1% Trans, 2% gay. Bunch of rough ridin' hypocrites, that's why. Cancel the damn convention. It's the right (left) thing to do.
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You guys aren't handling the analogy very well.
Let's talk about Democrats in office who use tax "loop holes" to avoid paying their "fair share". Should hillary even be allowed to run, has she acknowledged her white privilege? Has every Democrat redistributed their own wealth, do they pay all women the exact same salary as men. Why aren't the party reps 13% black, 22% Hispanic, 62% female, 1% Trans, 2% gay. Bunch of rough ridin' hypocrites, that's why. Cancel the damn convention. It's the right (left) thing to do.
The dem's aren't prohibiting any of this.
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What will be the trigger where they all simultaneously shoot each other? Also, will it be accidental? Like the occasional story where the old guy shoots his wife as he is sitting down at a restaurant and his gun falls out and goes off when it hits the floor? I mean, it would certainly be more entertaining that way.
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It will be civil until Trump gets the nomination taken from him.
So, thats when everyone's gun will accidentally fall out of their pants, go off, and shoot the person next to them, killing everyone in the arena?
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It will be just like the worst thing Chunk ever did but with bullets instead of barf
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You guys aren't handling the analogy very well.
Let's talk about Democrats in office who use tax "loop holes" to avoid paying their "fair share". Should hillary even be allowed to run, has she acknowledged her white privilege? Has every Democrat redistributed their own wealth, do they pay all women the exact same salary as men. Why aren't the party reps 13% black, 22% Hispanic, 62% female, 1% Trans, 2% gay. Bunch of rough ridin' hypocrites, that's why. Cancel the damn convention. It's the right (left) thing to do.
The dem's aren't prohibiting any of this.
At least not as it applies to them, ergo the punchline
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GOP: Even we don't believe our own bullshit
They really need to allow guns. they can't afford to look this ridiculous
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http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/its-probably-first-ballot-or-bust-for-donald-trump-at-the-gop-convention/
it's hard for me to put myself inside the mind of a gop delegate, but i really can't imagine voting for any of trump, cruz or kasich if they fail to get to 1237. they all would have had their chance and failed. at that point, i'd be hellbent on someone new.
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btw, the article is mostly interesting in talking about how the delegates are mostly free to do whatever they want. like all the talk about kasich giving his delegates to someone for a vp spot is fantasy (in kasich's case, it's not since those delegates are all basically from ohio and like all ohioans, will do whatever kasich wants them to do, but hypothetically, if he ever wins a non ohioan delegate he wouldn't be able to control that delegate).
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Are the terms Brokered Convention and Contested Convention synonyms or distinct concepts?
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brokered is an antiquated term still in general use. unless you're very particular, you can treat it as a synonym.
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http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/rubio-makes-unprecedented-bid-keep-delegates-contested-convention-n547646
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Are the terms Brokered Convention and Contested Convention synonyms or distinct concepts?
I believe contested is that there is no nominee before the process begins if it's too close (previous old school elections) to call. Once you start wheelin' and dealin' it's a brokered convention.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/03/10/a_contested_republican_convention_explained.html
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why even have the 1237 rule, if it doesn't mean anything? just say whoever gets the most votes wins. smdh, 'pubs and especially priebus.
http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/04/05/reince-priebus-hannity-nominees-going-be-one-three-who-are-running
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ted-cruz-not-paul-ryan-would-probably-win-a-contested-convention/
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This should be the easiest election in republican history and they are dead set on rough ridin' it up :excited:
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This should be the easiest election in republican history and they are dead set on rough ridin' it up :excited:
So true, and so sad.
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Was all this delegate and convention stuff something that made a lot more sense centuries ago?
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Was all this delegate and convention stuff something that made a lot more sense centuries ago?
I hope not.
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Was all this delegate and convention stuff something that made a lot more sense centuries ago?
SOOOOOOO many more shenanigans and backroom dealings then. This clusterfuck would look downright orderly and democratic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_1877
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It's rough ridin' crazy that a normal person hasn't taken advantage of all this and run an independent campaign.
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It's coming, don't worry
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It's rough ridin' crazy that a normal person hasn't taken advantage of all this and run an independent campaign.
the person capable of doing that decided to just take the republican party over instead
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It's coming, don't worry
I think it's too late to get on a lot of the ballots as an independent.
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It's coming, don't worry
I think it's too late to get on a lot of the ballots as an independent.
Ever heard of the constitution party or libertarian party?
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No
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So, it looks like Trump needs a little more than half of the remaining delegates to get to 1237 (498 of 944), and, to this point, he's earned a little less than half (739 of 1528).
Trump now needs 58% of remaining delegates to get to 1237 and has gotten 46% to this point. Seems impossible.
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How exciting
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Yes it's going to be awesome. And after Trump loses he'll give GOP Nominee Ted Cruz a yuuuge hug, everyone will make up, and fall turnout will go bananas.
Btw, I've been saying for a while now, well before WI and CO, that Trump is not going to reach 1,237 if the field narrows to two - and basically has except for that bad person Kasich. And I wasn't taking into account how disorganized and stupid the Trump campaign is about securing delegates. My goodness - they're essentially complaining that Cruz bothered to read the rules.
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With Ryan out, hopefully the more sane pubs nominate Kasich
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This will be the first convention that I've ever bothered to watch. Hopefully they bring Eastwood back so I can watch him talk to an empty chair live instead of just catching the highlights on the internet the next day.
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Just put a thunder dome on the convention floor and the last person standing wins.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/28/more-than-42000-people-have-signed-a-petition-to-allow-guns-at-the-republican-national-convention/
What a bunch of cowards.
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My goodness - they're essentially complaining that Cruz bothered to read the rules.
Aren't there technically no rules, at least as of now?
I'm talking about Cruz's recent sweep of Colorado. Knowing the rules and organizing would help Trump. But he'll be just fine against the Clinton Machine.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/28/more-than-42000-people-have-signed-a-petition-to-allow-guns-at-the-republican-national-convention/
What a bunch of cowards.
Would Secret Service allow that? Does the venue allow that?
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This is America, don't tread on the 2a
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They have to allow guns, or risk looking ridiculous
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The 2016 Republican convention will be an embarrassing spectacle of epic proportions.
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I just hope trump references his penis in a conceal carry joke.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
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They have to allow guns, or risk looking ridiculous
Why? The Secret Service doesn't just roll around America(although haven't they been involved in some dipshit headlines recently).
Uh what?
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SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
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The libs are really trying to make something of this. There just isn't much to work with.
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They have to allow guns, or risk looking ridiculous
Why? The Secret Service doesn't just roll around America(although haven't they been involved in some dipshit headlines recently).
Uh what?
I don't find it to be inconsistent to say gun free zones are unsafe, whether I believe it true or not, and say an area where Presidential candidates may be with their secret service detail in tow is fundamentally different due to the presence of the secret service.
It is, though.
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Whether or not there are actual contradictions here doesn't even matter. The mere appearance of contradiction is itself a bad look.
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Whether or not there are actual contradictions here doesn't even matter. The mere appearance of contradiction is itself a bad look.
I mean if you want to protect against confirmation bias.
These candidates have publicly stated that there should be no gun-free zones. They make you a target.
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They have to allow guns, or risk looking ridiculous
Why? The Secret Service doesn't just roll around America(although haven't they been involved in some dipshit headlines recently).
Uh what?
I don't find it to be inconsistent to say gun free zones are unsafe, whether I believe it true or not, and say an area where Presidential candidates may be with their secret service detail in tow is fundamentally different due to the presence of the secret service.
To say armed citizens are a defense against violent crime and also a protected constitutional right....except for certain instances when we decide it isn't.
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There should be no gun free zones, unless I'm going to be there, then I'd rather there not be any guns if the secret service thinks it might be safer.
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They have to allow guns, or risk looking ridiculous
Why? The Secret Service doesn't just roll around America(although haven't they been involved in some dipshit headlines recently).
Uh what?
I don't find it to be inconsistent to say gun free zones are unsafe, whether I believe it true or not, and say an area where Presidential candidates may be with their secret service detail in tow is fundamentally different due to the presence of the secret service.
To say armed citizens are a defense against violent crime and also a protected constitutional right....except for certain instances when we decide it isn't.
If they are hardlining ABSOLUTELY NO infringement of 2nd amendment rights(which I don't think exists anyways due to gun laws) then there is a contradiction.
To me the whole protection from carrying citizens derives from saying you cannot control bad actors with guns, therefore it's better to allow "good ones" to also be present. The whole point of the Secret Service being there IS to control that environment and I'm guessing those trained good actors will also be packing. Again I don't agree that more good guys with guns is actually protecting anybody, I mean I guess if we were at war :dunno:.
They advocate for schools to allow guns, even if there is an armed officer present.
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Gun free conventions will the the ground zero of the government putting the boot to the ppl. Without guns, there will be no chance to resist.
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I just hope ISIS doesn't decide to take them out. Talk about a bullseye.
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Take out gun owners at the one spot where you know they won't have guns, then just roll over the bleeding hearts and libs at your leisure afterword, knowing they don't even have guns.
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The first thing Hitler did was disarm the jews.
Enough said
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Gun free conventions will the the ground zero of the government putting the boot to the ppl. Without guns, there will be no chance to resist.
It is pretty aggressive government intervention to prevent properly licensed citizens from protecting themselves.
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(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Lp7n5eN3LAE/hqdefault.jpg)
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2016%2F01%2F03%2F04%2F2FC15EF000000578-0-image-a-7_1451796994489.jpg&hash=cec854093eba84f7266c4a7c4e085b23f3beaf53)
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Obama is going to get Greg's ass at the RNC.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
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"COME AND TAKE IT" means "just come on by and I'll gladly hand over my guns for my own protection." Who knew?
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only the bad guys will have guns at the RNC :frown:
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Politicians should be required to train with, and carry, a firearm.
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you know who domestic or foreign terrorists won't ambush with guns? an entire convention filled with open carry gun owners armed with guns.
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(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/74/13/70/741370bf00133c8c8f9e05ffdcc276dc.jpg)
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.horkulated.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fopen-carry.png&hash=e84a9c5f701ad6b3ddbb2874330bfe289ccf17b9)
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(https://punditfromanotherplanet.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/scottsmith.jpeg)
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Is that a kilt?
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2016%2F01%2F03%2F04%2F2FC15EF000000578-0-image-a-7_1451796994489.jpg&hash=cec854093eba84f7266c4a7c4e085b23f3beaf53)
Wait, does this mean Obama wants to take away our throwing stars and cannons too? :shakesfist:
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(https://punditfromanotherplanet.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/scottsmith.jpeg)
cavalry draw? at the hip? pfft. does this asshat know anything about guns?
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you know who domestic or foreign terrorists won't ambush with guns? an entire convention filled with open carry gun owners armed with guns.
100% safety for everyone involved (except the terrorists).
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Please focus on the second amendment only ITT
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Trump is going to shoot someone at the convention
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is we the people guy wearing a kilt?
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.horkulated.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fopen-carry.png&hash=e84a9c5f701ad6b3ddbb2874330bfe289ccf17b9)
I just like seeing a trans man, his wife and child happy.
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.horkulated.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fopen-carry.png&hash=e84a9c5f701ad6b3ddbb2874330bfe289ccf17b9)
I just like seeing a trans man, his wife and child happy.
I think having a gun attached to the end of your arm would be awesome!
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is we the people guy wearing a kilt?
2 out of every 3 kilt guys I've seen this week have been armed.
https://twitter.com/TrimGoEMAW/status/718927850884038656
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Spracne!!! Get in here! "Hand-gun" joke waiting for you!!!
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160413%2Ffcef90b83c7eee9e6f7c389f5de39987.jpg&hash=194cf6ad7ee95ebc08feea9b4a5211cd4f5a0636)
Gonna win 'em all! (using Tapatalk)
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(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/tv4pbabptdqa3k5wfbau.gif)
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Cruz is terrible at denying Trump delegates in the Northeast. So, it's much better for chances of a brokered convention that Kasich is still in.
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look, no one likes kasich, but he's available.
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Spracne!!! Get in here! "Hand-gun" joke waiting for you!!!
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160413%2Ffcef90b83c7eee9e6f7c389f5de39987.jpg&hash=194cf6ad7ee95ebc08feea9b4a5211cd4f5a0636)
Gonna win 'em all! (using Tapatalk)
Oh mano, can't believe I missed this!
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So, it looks like Trump needs a little more than half of the remaining delegates to get to 1237 (498 of 944), and, to this point, he's earned a little less than half (739 of 1528).
Trump now needs 58% of remaining delegates to get to 1237 and has gotten 46% to this point. Seems impossible.
Trump has received votes accounting for 51% of the delegates thus far and needs 46% the rest of the way to get to 1237.
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The first debates will be amaze
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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A brokered convention would've been hilarious. I'm sad that it'll take a miracle for that to happen now.
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I'm not giving up hope. Also, things could still get very ugly even if Trump reaches 1237. And that's ultimately what brokered convention fans like me want to see.
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Are they going to allow concealed carry to those with lawfully attained permits?
I feel like the convention might be a target for ISIS or other terrorists. Need protection
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Are they going to allow concealed carry to those with lawfully attained permits?
I feel like the convention might be a target for ISIS or other terrorists. Need protection
No. You only have a right to bear arms until the secret service tells you it's dangerous, apparently.
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Are they going to allow concealed carry to those with lawfully attained permits?
I feel like the convention might be a target for ISIS or other terrorists. Need protection
No. You only have a right to bear arms until the secret service tells you it's dangerous, apparently.
Why is the secret service telling law abiding citizens they cannot protect themselves? I think if you want to guarntee everyone's safety you let people arm themselves.
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The Secret Service will be the arm the government uses to wield the fist that strikes the first bludgeoning blow of their rapid oppression of the ppl.
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Will be a good test case I guess. We all know criminals will take advantage of citizens who are not allowed to arm themselves. Now that it is widely known that the citizens at the convention will NOT be armed, I expect crime to be rampant within the convention.
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First hitler disarmed the jews and now the secret service (ss) is disarming the delegates. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it
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You guys need to ease up. I think the new Republican "just trust the government to be the only one with guns" platform makes a lot of sense.
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Maybe it does while inside the convention center walls, but what happens immediately outside the building and at every parking garage, bus stop, and anywhere else ppl have to go after said convention? I mean, it's like lining up to get shot, raped, and murdered. Got a suit on? Give me your wallet. Got a "Make America Great Again" hat on, give me your car. Got a "Choose Cruz" button on? Give me your life.
The Secret Service (SS) can't be everywhere protecting everyone. This is going to get super ugly.
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Maybe it does while inside the convention center walls, but what happens immediately outside the building and at every parking garage, bus stop, and anywhere else ppl have to go after said convention? I mean, it's like lining up to get shot, raped, and murdered. Got a suit on? Give me your wallet. Got a "Make America Great Again" hat on, give me your car. Got a "Choose Cruz" button on? Give me your life.
The Secret Service (SS) can't be everywhere protecting everyone. This is going to get super ugly.
Do you think the rnc wants it's members raped robbed and murdered? Sure seems that way when you objectively look at the facts
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"Check Your Freedom At The Door" theme party this year in Cleveland for the RNC
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Are we positive this isn't some trap and barry hussein is going to round up all of these patriots and trump supporters for some kind of cull? because it sounds to me like it may be.
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those shirts that people post on facebook that say like, "you don't need a machine gun." "well I don't need a whiny bitch but here you are!" or whatever and then everyone lols and shares it to their kansas friends and junk. that shirt but the convention. you get what I'm saying.
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or like those ones that say COME AND TAKE IT! with like an eagle and flag and machine gun or whatever. that but it's about the convention and they are just handing their machine guns over because the convention DID need a whiny gunless bitch to show up and vote cruz. like a double meme deal.
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or like the DON'T TREAD ON ME snake thing that rednecks have stickers of. that but it says TREAD ON MY A LITTLE BIT DURING THE CONVENTION and it's like a tiny little garter snake thing with barely any guns.
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or like that willy wonka that says "tell me again how taking away guns saves lives" but then it's the convention and it says "tell me again how #NEVERTRUMP" and he's got some stupid kasich sticker or some crap. this one doesn't even make sense I'll admit.
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or like that willy wonka that says "tell me again how taking away guns saves lives" but then it's the convention and it says "tell me again how #NEVERTRUMP" and he's got some stupid kasich sticker or some crap. this one doesn't even make sense I'll admit.
"Tell me again how I'll have to take them from your cold, dead hands" and he's wearing his Obama-issued SS uniform working the front door of the convention.
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ok, it's this:
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblavity.blavity.netdna-cdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F03%2Fkrabs-696x475.png%3F857868&hash=ed83ad12cc83e26de12d7f8cfe384ee56c29e356)
and on it it says, "When literally anything happens at the RNC because you have no guns"
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Are we positive this isn't some trap and barry hussein is going to round up all of these patriots and trump supporters for some kind of cull? because it sounds to me like it may be.
I think this is correct. Barry has made a number of veiled threats on Trump's life:
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.flipps.com%2Fcbsnews%2F640%2F75a996d9d67b3c779181d2ffad7f5465_1455728785.jpg&hash=434b37c33ca1e27a53634a2226c0e2310f24b765)
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the whole making fun of no guns at a convention thing you guys seem to love doing is really pretty stupid.
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblavity.blavity.netdna-cdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F03%2Fkrabs-696x475.png%3F857868&hash=ed83ad12cc83e26de12d7f8cfe384ee56c29e356)
and it says, "When I don't want to make stupid jokes about the no guns at the convention but everyone else does and then are going to kick my ass IRL"
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblavity.blavity.netdna-cdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F03%2Fkrabs-696x475.png%3F857868&hash=ed83ad12cc83e26de12d7f8cfe384ee56c29e356)
and it says, "When I don't want to make stupid jokes about the no guns at the convention but everyone else does and then are going to kick my ass IRL"
LOL, that would kill on Facebook.
Can you do Kermit sipping tea and make him say:
"You want to have guns in schools but won't let anyone have them at your convention even though there is the second amendment?"
Then Kermit says "But that isn't any of my business"
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FiQTNAuT.jpg&hash=9b99fcd30fa172f7e84d4f45f1da749ebcd3a3a4)
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Even better than I pictured it
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It needs to start and end with a crying Kyle pic meme, imo.
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NRA prez with crying Jordan head
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No slobbering, but I really like it when steve dave comes into a thread and makes it awesome.
Gonna win 'em all! (using Tapatalk)
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I like it better when sys gets mad and tells everyone that funny stuff is stupid.
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I like it better when sys gets mad and tells everyone that funny stuff is stupid.
i'm not mad, dickstone. there are plenty of old threads around where i've been mad, if you need a frame of reference.
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I like it better when sys gets mad and tells everyone that funny stuff is stupid.
i'm not mad, dickstone. there are plenty of old threads around where i've been mad, if you need a frame of reference.
glad to hear. It just seemed like you were very adamant that you wanted us to know you think mocking the GOP for being pro-concealed carry but then specifically not allowing concealed carry at their convention was not as funny as we thought. I think you posted about it more than once, which for you means you are a bit agitated (usually).
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i think i just posted once. it is stupid, it just isn't something that makes me mad. it's more like, heads up guys that i like - this is stupid, and it makes you look stupid that you don't realize it's stupid.
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i think i just posted once. it is stupid, it just isn't something that makes me mad. it's more like, heads up guys that i like - this is stupid, and it makes you look stupid that you don't realize it's stupid.
See, this is what I like.
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a blog with something for everybody.
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a blog with something for everybody.
hard to believe, but true
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i think i just posted once. it is stupid, it just isn't something that makes me mad. it's more like, heads up guys that i like - this is stupid, and it makes you look stupid that you don't realize it's stupid.
the whole making fun of no guns at a convention thing you guys seem to love doing is really pretty stupid.
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that's one.
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that's one.
Oh I will find the other one sys. SOME DAY :pray:
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I like it better when sys gets mad and tells everyone that funny stuff is stupid.
Yes, that is likable, too. I'll bet your post add him mad and defensive.
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I like it better when sys gets mad and tells everyone that funny stuff is stupid.
Yes, that is likable, too. I'll bet your post add him mad and defensive.
I was right.
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Bernie should be screaming for a brokered democratic convention. His race with Hillary is much closer than the republican race, except for the super "too stupid to pick the candidate we want" delegates. He also polls better than hillary against all of the republican candidates, like landslide winning better.
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Bernie should be screaming for a brokered democratic convention. His race with Hillary is much closer than the republican race, except for the super "too stupid to pick the candidate we want" delegates. He also polls better than hillary against all of the republican candidates, like landslide winning better.
The dems didn't have enough candidates to get a brokered convention.
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Using republican primary rules hilldawg would have like 2/3rds of the delegates.
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The delegates still get to vote even if hillary makes her number. The super hillary delegates ruin all the drama, though.
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There really isn't any drama though
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Without super delegates, The Bern is only about 330 behind with 1250 to go.
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What about super duper delegates? Good grief politics are so stupid :lol:
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I'm not 100% certain John Doug has a strong grasp on where Bern sits with the democratic machine
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If Bernie pulls ahead of her and then the super delegates give it to her, then you can start talking about an unfair system. So far this isn't going to happen
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:cry:
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I think bernie wins california.
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The faction of the GOP that is unhappy with Donald Trump as the party's presumptive nominee has one last plan to stop the mogul: staging an all-out delegate revolt at the Republican National Convention.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/10/politics/gop-delegate-revolt-stop-donald-trump/index.html
:excited:
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Lol, the gop is too cowardly to allow their own delegates to exercise their constitutional rights, they won't rock their boat.
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Lol, the gop is too cowardly to allow their own delegates to exercise their constitutional rights, they won't rock their boat.
They will get in line when told to do so
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Ronald is rolling over in his grave
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crap, I posted in a different thread. Is this where we talk about a clevelandPAK?
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crap, I posted in a different thread. Is this where we talk about a clevelandPAK?
yes, I think so
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If TBT got canceled or something and I could shift travel around, I'd go. Wander around and lol at a turnt real-life pit, have virtually zero chance of being shot, and see Prophets of Rage. Maybe be there when something major happens in Cavs free agency.
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Quite the pickle
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Bloody convention.
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Is this going to be as exciting as I think?
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We all hope so
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Is this going to be as exciting as I think?
depends - they still infringing or nah?
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rumor they will allow some pistols in this thing....any canco?
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rumor they will allow some pistols in this thing....any canco?
The secret service will have guns.
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rumor they will allow some pistols in this thing....any canco?
I bet it's because the black panthers said they will be protesting
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Can you imagine the intense pokemon hunting that will be going on around the convention center?
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Can you imagine the intense pokemon hunting that will be going on around the convention center?
Doubtful, trumpettes hate anything "chinese"
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Flip Phone Convention.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
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SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
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i think it's better to write it - shall NOT be infringed.
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I don't know, I think in this case I like it in all caps. Makes it have more of a Charleton Heston "FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS" feel to it.
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def all caps
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RNC bringing Jim Crow back one step at a time.
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/07/republican-national-convention-staffers-scrambling-to-remove-jim-crow-like-white-elevators-signs/
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2d0yaz2jiom3c6vy7e7e5svk.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F07%2Fa40-800x430.jpg&hash=279a635eaf0c01d0cf6aadb7b8ab0e6baed14446)
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Hahahahahahaha
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:lol:
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Trump's African American gets his own elevator at this thing.
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where do you go when the only people who seem to agree with you on taxes hate black people?
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-end-of-a-republican-party/
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where do you go when the only people who seem to agree with you on taxes hate black people?
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-end-of-a-republican-party/
Interesting read. The part that outlined how old even the youngest Reagan voters are was something I never really thought about.
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The moderate party is missing s huge opportunity here IMO
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where do you go when the only people who seem to agree with you on taxes hate black people?
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-end-of-a-republican-party/
Interesting read. The part that outlined how old even the youngest Reagan voters are was something I never really thought about.
I'm not old enough to even remember Reagan as president, let alone have voted for him. The deification of Reagan is something I've never understood.
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The amount of republicans that see trump and think "Yeah, I'm comfortable with this amount of racism in my presidential candidate" is really surprising too. I always thought the racist segment of the republicans was fairly minor (though weirdly pandered to), and I guess I was wrong to make that assumption.
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The amount of republicans that see trump and think "Yeah, I'm comfortable with this amount of racism in my presidential candidate" is really surprising too. I always thought the racist segment of the republicans was fairly minor (though weirdly pandered to), and I guess I was wrong to make that assumption.
Yeah, that was surprising to me, too. It wasn't surprising that Trump was winning when the field had more than a dozen candidates, but I was very surprised to see his numbers continue to grow as others dropped out.
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The amount of republicans that see trump and think "Yeah, I'm comfortable with this amount of racism in my presidential candidate" is really surprising too. I always thought the racist segment of the republicans was fairly minor (though weirdly pandered to), and I guess I was wrong to make that assumption.
Yeah, that was surprising to me, too. It wasn't surprising that Trump was winning when the field had more than a dozen candidates, but I was very surprised to see his numbers continue to grow as others dropped out.
There have been some really good articles on the shifting of what a "racist" actually is. Combined with the fact that the rank and file pub tries to look at issues through a lens of economics, welfare abuse, tough on crime, while ignoring the subtext of what those excuses actually mean, and you get a generation and a half of pubs who now think they aren't racist because they don't regularly attend Klan rallies and they are only mad at "those people" because they "abuse welfare."