Post by: MakeItRain on December 27, 2015, 08:16:47 PM
Then I learned about this over the weekend
http://nytimes.com/2015/12/25/us/politics/americans-held-hostage-in-iran-win-compensation-36-years-later.html
What in the world?
I just read this http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ I'm now all in
Quote
Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole.
Post by: gatoveintisiete on December 27, 2015, 08:20:09 PM
Post by: wetwillie on December 27, 2015, 08:41:19 PM
Post by: gatoveintisiete on December 27, 2015, 08:47:21 PM
Post by: gatoveintisiete on December 27, 2015, 08:53:36 PM
Post by: michigancat on December 27, 2015, 09:02:00 PM
love that Coates piece, too
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on December 27, 2015, 10:59:57 PM
On topic, it's an incredibly stupid idea to make the people of today pay for the wrongs of others, just as its stupid to reward people for wrongs committed against their ancestors. There is no end to wrongs committed by our government against specific groups of people, and reparations would further the injustice not aid in curing it. It's a slippery slope and has a very occutard hue to it.
What makes this so libtarded is the blaming of government for the shortfalls of one segment of society, while simultaneously looking to it to make things right. These people should be small government brownbackites, in essence the victims of the most egregious form of cronyism, instead they want the punitive government to lash out at some other undeserving group of people, as if that will solve a problem rather than creating more. So bizarre to acknowledge the source of the problem, then demand a bigger, stronger, more powerful problem.
Post by: The Big Train on December 27, 2015, 11:03:57 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on December 27, 2015, 11:16:04 PM
How much per person?
There isn't really a dollar figure that would correct the wrongs at this point so any amount would be largely symbolic. The government long ago missed it's chance to right the wrong in a way that would have truly helped and wouldn't have bankrupted the country and ruined the dollar by driving inflation up 20 fold.
Did you know that white slave owners received reparations?
Post by: MakeItRain on December 27, 2015, 11:20:40 PM
Fwiw, there wer about 4 million slaves in 1860 per the census. If you want to put a pen to paper and ballpark some numbers (obv that wouldn't cover everyone ever enslaved in the 80 years of us government.
On topic, it's an incredibly stupid idea to make the people of today pay for the wrongs of others, just as its stupid to reward people for wrongs committed against their ancestors. There is no end to wrongs committed by our government against specific groups of people, and reparations would further the injustice not aid in curing it. It's a slippery slope and has a very occutard hue to it.
What makes this so libtarded is the blaming of government for the shortfalls of one segment of society, while simultaneously looking to it to make things right. These people should be small government brownbackites, in essence the victims of the most egregious form of cronyism, instead they want the punitive government to lash out at some other undeserving group of people, as if that will solve a problem rather than creating more. So bizarre to acknowledge the source of the problem, then demand a bigger, stronger, more powerful problem.
What other undeserving group of people is being lashed out at?
Post by: michigancat on December 27, 2015, 11:49:17 PM
I don't know. Probably housing discrimination.Reparations isn't all about slavery IMOWhere do you draw the line? :driving:
love that Coates piece, too
Post by: renocat on December 28, 2015, 07:45:58 AM
Post by: CNS on December 28, 2015, 08:39:13 AM
I would say that really good public school would be a good reparation, but that should be an existing right and it already isn't happening.
Post by: michigancat on December 28, 2015, 10:03:41 AM
Free higher ed would be a good reparation, imo. The problem is the massive pile of crap that is the public school system not preparing many black children to be able to take advantage of that.Yes and yes. I really think cash would be best. The question is how much?
I would say that really good public school would be a good reparation, but that should be an existing right and it already isn't happening.
Post by: CNS on December 28, 2015, 10:06:25 AM
Post by: gatoveintisiete on December 28, 2015, 10:26:56 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 28, 2015, 10:37:48 AM
Post by: michigancat on December 28, 2015, 10:58:19 AM
We've done it before for several groups. I don't know the details of how they went down, but you could look at what went well and what went wrong in those cases and apply it to this new case.Free higher ed would be a good reparation, imo. The problem is the massive pile of crap that is the public school system not preparing many black children to be able to take advantage of that.Yes and yes. I really think cash would be best. The question is how much?
I would say that really good public school would be a good reparation, but that should be an existing right and it already isn't happening.
Should be based on something tangible to families in today's economy not something cooked up from historical conjecture. Even if the amount is set upon, what about the distribution method? :horrorsurprise:
That's what blows my mind about reparations, the details of something like this would be incredibly hard to do well. Could you imagine the incentive for fraud?
Post by: michigancat on December 28, 2015, 10:59:09 AM
I don't think cash would be best at providing lost oppys. Cash can be gone in no time with no appreciable gain.Really, so can an education.
Post by: michigancat on December 28, 2015, 11:00:59 AM
Obviously it's much larger. I don't like the argument that the government mumped over too many people to try to make it right, it that's what you're getting at.We've done it before for several groups. I don't know the details of how they went down, but you could look at what went well and what went wrong in those cases and apply it to this new case.Free higher ed would be a good reparation, imo. The problem is the massive pile of crap that is the public school system not preparing many black children to be able to take advantage of that.Yes and yes. I really think cash would be best. The question is how much?
I would say that really good public school would be a good reparation, but that should be an existing right and it already isn't happening.
Should be based on something tangible to families in today's economy not something cooked up from historical conjecture. Even if the amount is set upon, what about the distribution method? :horrorsurprise:
That's what blows my mind about reparations, the details of something like this would be incredibly hard to do well. Could you imagine the incentive for fraud?
Any idea of relative size of the populations in comparison?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on December 28, 2015, 11:51:34 AM
Obviously it's much larger. I don't like the argument that the government mumped over too many people to try to make it right, it that's what you're getting at.We've done it before for several groups. I don't know the details of how they went down, but you could look at what went well and what went wrong in those cases and apply it to this new case.Free higher ed would be a good reparation, imo. The problem is the massive pile of crap that is the public school system not preparing many black children to be able to take advantage of that.Yes and yes. I really think cash would be best. The question is how much?
I would say that really good public school would be a good reparation, but that should be an existing right and it already isn't happening.
Should be based on something tangible to families in today's economy not something cooked up from historical conjecture. Even if the amount is set upon, what about the distribution method? :horrorsurprise:
That's what blows my mind about reparations, the details of something like this would be incredibly hard to do well. Could you imagine the incentive for fraud?
Any idea of relative size of the populations in comparison?
The "I don't like that argument" argument is pretty weak. Shelling out cash (or education-wtf?) willy nilly seems like a really bad idea, almost as bad as the entire idea of reparations in general.
Also, conflating "actual damages" like with Asian Americans in ww2, with speculative and conjectural reparations for slavery, Jim crow and then some stuff that targeted poors generally, is a disingenuous way to support your position.
Post by: star seed 7 on December 28, 2015, 12:41:37 PM
Post by: CNS on December 28, 2015, 12:54:41 PM
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on December 28, 2015, 01:07:27 PM
Good grief
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on December 28, 2015, 01:08:50 PM
Post by: CNS on December 28, 2015, 01:19:46 PM
Obviously, I'm questioning the idea of compensation through the "granting of education", not the merits of education in society in general.Obviously you are against reparations in general and aren't interested in discussing hypotheticals. If that wasn't the case, your post dismissing ed as a method is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) once you turn around and acknowledge their benefits to society.
Good grief
Post by: wetwillie on December 28, 2015, 01:20:49 PM
Post by: gatoveintisiete on December 28, 2015, 01:28:38 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on December 28, 2015, 01:39:42 PM
How did we handle reparations for Japanese internment camps?
There were only about 100,000 Japanese-Americans that received the $20,000 payment and formal apology. The $20,000 wasn't much for some people who lost businesses. The more interesting thing for me is that Ronald Regan gave a formal apology. The United States has yet to offer a formal apology for slavery, pretty disgusting.
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on December 28, 2015, 01:50:56 PM
Obviously, I'm questioning the idea of compensation through the "granting of education", not the merits of education in society in general.Obviously you are against reparations in general and aren't interested in discussing hypotheticals. If that wasn't the case, your post dismissing ed as a method is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) once you turn around and acknowledge their benefits to society.
Good grief
You can't grant education anymore than you can grant intelligence. This isn't world of war craft, and the government can't cast a spell of education upon the alleged aggrieved.
You can grant access to education, but that's not presently restricted. You can give more schlorships, grants, etc., but how does that help the aggrieved uninterested or too old for education?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on December 28, 2015, 01:54:28 PM
There, one problem solved. Thank god for Ronald Reagan.
Question, have the enslaved issued a formal thank you to the millions of men who died fighting the civil war? That needs to be done pronto. Let's get all these loose ends tied up.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 28, 2015, 02:05:01 PM
Does anyone know if the Irish slave decedents who were sold to settlers by the thousands of what was to become the United States have sought reparations?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on December 28, 2015, 02:41:25 PM
That is why the idea of reparations seems so petty, unjust and unwarranted. The situation is barely unique, save for the specific government causing the harm (which it has subsequently corrected).
There is no end to the damages that the u.s. government would have to pay. Everyone is born into a unique circumstance, and to generally pay one group of people money for the most common circumstance their designated group is born into is to afford a windfall to some, prejudice to others, insufficient compensation to some, and harm to everyone else. It is absolutely preposterous that intelligent people are willing to entertain such a sloppy and unjust exercise.
Post by: MakeItRain on December 28, 2015, 03:12:42 PM
I seem to recall that the Japanese sent to Interment campus were American Citizens.
Are you suggesting that slaves shouldn't be considered American citizens?
Post by: Pendergast on December 28, 2015, 03:20:14 PM
Post by: star seed 7 on February 01, 2016, 12:40:40 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on May 06, 2021, 08:31:05 PM
That being said, this ain't it :facepalm: white guilt is a disability
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/04/993643759/show-me-the-money
The tl,dr here is a woman in Vermont wrote a letter saying white people, literal individuals needed to give black folks money, and not just a few dollars but "enough for you to feel it" and people actually gave thousands of dollars. WTF?
Post by: sys on May 06, 2021, 08:37:02 PM
Post by: michigancat on June 04, 2021, 09:08:16 PM
I still get stuck on issues that propagate through generations re reparations where I get to the point of let's just make this country a generally good place to live (go after child poverty ect rather than try to identify everyone with x lineage).
Do both!
Post by: Institutional Control on June 04, 2021, 09:59:42 PM
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Post by: Dr Rick Daris on June 05, 2021, 01:01:24 AM
There's nary a person in this country who hasn't been a victim of the government at some point in time, and certainly their ancestors have faced harsher grievances. So many people immigrated to the u.s. due to disparate treatment abroad, came here dirt poor with their property and belonging abandoned back home. Many arguably began in a worse position than the freed man, some better. None of these people seek reparations. All value the "opportunity" this country affords.
That is why the idea of reparations seems so petty, unjust and unwarranted. The situation is barely unique, save for the specific government causing the harm (which it has subsequently corrected).
There is no end to the damages that the u.s. government would have to pay. Everyone is born into a unique circumstance, and to generally pay one group of people money for the most common circumstance their designated group is born into is to afford a windfall to some, prejudice to others, insufficient compensation to some, and harm to everyone else. It is absolutely preposterous that intelligent people are willing to entertain such a sloppy and unjust exercise.
Counterpoint- My two best friends both personally received 500k each in ppe loans for businesses they own or are partners in that the won’t have to repay.
Post by: MakeItRain on June 06, 2021, 12:22:23 PM
There's nary a person in this country who hasn't been a victim of the government at some point in time, and certainly their ancestors have faced harsher grievances. So many people immigrated to the u.s. due to disparate treatment abroad, came here dirt poor with their property and belonging abandoned back home. Many arguably began in a worse position than the freed man, some better. None of these people seek reparations. All value the "opportunity" this country affords.
That is why the idea of reparations seems so petty, unjust and unwarranted. The situation is barely unique, save for the specific government causing the harm (which it has subsequently corrected).
There is no end to the damages that the u.s. government would have to pay. Everyone is born into a unique circumstance, and to generally pay one group of people money for the most common circumstance their designated group is born into is to afford a windfall to some, prejudice to others, insufficient compensation to some, and harm to everyone else. It is absolutely preposterous that intelligent people are willing to entertain such a sloppy and unjust exercise.
Counterpoint- My two best friends both personally received 500k each in ppe loans for businesses they own or are partners in that the won’t have to repay.
Yeah, the argument that government can't cure every government created ill is a really stupid rough ridin' argument. There are literally thousands of examples of the government throwing millions, billions, trillions of dollars at attempting to correct ills, created by them or otherwise. There are countless grants, subsidies, loan programs, even other reparation programs, that have and currently are helping all kinds of people. The argument of who gets reparations is also a poor one, we've been tracking social security numbers for us citizens for 85 years, it's very easy to determine who are descendents of slaves.
Post by: star seed 7 on October 25, 2021, 09:31:15 AM
https://youtu.be/65uuGA2xGwg
Post by: michigancat on October 25, 2021, 09:38:37 AM
Post by: IPA4Me on October 25, 2021, 10:01:30 AM
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Post by: nicname on October 25, 2021, 10:24:51 AM
Lol
https://youtu.be/65uuGA2xGwg
white people are weird.
Ch 5/AGNB guy is so good at what he does
Post by: Katpappy on October 25, 2021, 10:40:33 AM
Post by: MakeItRain on October 25, 2021, 12:23:02 PM
Pretty typical of those dumb shits to go thru a black neighborhood and talk crap about reparations, but definitely not coming out of their pocket. It's amazing how stupid people can be and not know it. Most of them didn't even know what the money was going to. :lol:
As cringy as that was, the thought absolutely counts for something. I'm not going to crush these regular ass people for not having answers to how reparations should work. We need more vocal allies and people shouldn't feel like they have to be perfect when advocating.
Post by: star seed 7 on October 25, 2021, 12:57:36 PM
Post by: Katpappy on October 26, 2021, 01:40:12 AM