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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Jerome Tang Coaches Kansas State Basketball => Topic started by: CHONGS on February 12, 2015, 10:26:56 AM
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It has been my contention (probably stated way too often to the annoyance of others) that KSU's hire of oscar Weber was extremely unique. This was not a "lazy" or "conventional" hire in any sense. A conventional hire for a major conference school would be a hot-shot assistant coach from a more successful program, a mid-major coach who has made some waves in the tournament, or poaching a coach from another major conference school which is considered not as successful (like KU hiring Bill Self from Illinois).
I cannot recall a previous situation where a major conference school hired another basketball coach immediately after they had just been fired for performance reasons. What we did was unprecedented, but I could also be wrong. Can anyone else recall a hiring like this? I know Tech has just done something very similar, but that was after we broke the mold to hire Weber. In fact Tech might be the only other school. Just seeing other examples would be interesting because then we can look to see how many of them turned out be successful hires. I suspect none of them.
So KSU just finished up a trifecta of very unconventional hires: 1) Bob Huggins (reclamation project) 2) Frank Martin (unknown nobody) 3) oscar Weber (recently fired for being bad at coaching basketball). The first two can be said to have worked out well, the last is where our luck ran out...
I would be surprised if the next hire is not standard.
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Tech with Billy Clyde? Maybe he took some time off.
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Minnesota Hired Tubby when he "resigned" but it was basically a firing IIRC.
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Tubby had minor success at Minnesota
2007–08 Minnesota 20–14 8–10 6th NIT First Round
2008–09 Minnesota 22–11 9–9 T–7th NCAA First Round
2009–10 Minnesota 21–14 9–9 6th NCAA First Round
2010–11 Minnesota 17–14 6–12 9th
2011–12 Minnesota 23–15 6–12 T–9th NIT Runner-up
2012–13 Minnesota 21–13 8–10 T–7th NCAA Third Round
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Minnesota Hired Tubby when he "resigned" but it was basically a firing IIRC.
Yea, this was the closest I could think of
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And I think you shared a pretty good argument for an unconventional hire, as long as you don't hire someone who got fired at a school equal to yours for losing.
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Tech with Billy Clyde? Maybe he took some time off.
nope three years later
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Tubby won at least one NCAA tourney game every year he was at UK. It's really not that much of a comparison.
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Tubby's last year at Kentucky he was 22-12, with a win in the NCAA tournament. 4th in the SEC, and a 8 seed. That's not a bad year to come off of for a team like Minnesota to hire him.
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Tubby won at least one NCAA tourney game every year he was at UK. It's really not that much of a comparison.
Yeah, making the NCAAs every year and winning a game there every year and having a winning record in conference every year for ten straight years then leaving before you get fired is definitely not the same as actually getting fired for sucking.
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
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Yeah Tubby has doubled-down on this I think. Minnesota has done the closest. So we have claimed Minnesota as a peer in college basketball. Funny how Minnesota (coming off of a 9-22 season) could manage to hire a coach who finished a 22-12 season, yet we decided to mix it up and reverse that idea!
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you guys, the day Huggins was hired was so freaking great. remember how excited you were? I mean my word fellas. Will anything ever feel like that again?
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When he left was equally depressing tho. Like, I had a professor who went and got drinks with us so we could drink through it. I mean, it hurt. :frown:
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
Do you have a non-white candidate in mind?
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
Oh I think we should go unconventional as well. I just find it interesting how unique a hire like oscar actually was. Unique also in the sense that it lets you know how the AD "sees" how his program fits in the grand scheme of things. In Minnesota's case, it was "hey we really suck, we're certainly not on the same level as Kentucky so a coach who is not meeting their very high standards might just fit us well". For us it was clearly "Even though our program has been recently better than Illinois, they still probably have higher standards than us, so a coach who fails there might still be good enough for us".
I mean Currie essentially told us and everyone else in college basketball that he thinks KSU is lower-level than Illinois.
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
Do you have a non-white candidate in mind?
not really
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
Do you have a non-white candidate in mind?
not really
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fblogs%2Fimages%2Fsfgate%2Fratto%2F2009%2F03%2F18%2FNCAA_Morgan_St_Basketball_K250x304.JPG&hash=da2ab48191348f7c6558687027f280a482246555)
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I definitely don't want oscar to leave anymore.
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
Do you have a non-white candidate in mind?
not really
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Fblogs%2Fimages%2Fsfgate%2Fratto%2F2009%2F03%2F18%2FNCAA_Morgan_St_Basketball_K250x304.JPG&hash=da2ab48191348f7c6558687027f280a482246555)
he might get fired for losing at Morgan State
:frown:
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maybe. would be a risky hire black guy and i know you used to love him.
the only guy i'd want that would be semi-non traditional would be tim floyd. i'm sure he has a bit of a stain on him from usc but it's not much of one, if at all.
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Looking back, if Wooly hadn't been awful at LaTech, he would have been a pretty good non-conventional hire.
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I definitely don't want oscar to leave anymore.
Sarcasm? :confused:
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Thinking about Trim's post, it would also be pretty non-conventional to double down on oscar and give him yet another extension and let folks really know you're truly behind him (like, don't give him some bullshit meaningless extension like we did with Wooly). I think that could easily produce better results than hiring some mid-major dork or assistant from Kentucky.
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you guys, the day Huggins was hired was so freaking great. remember how excited you were? I mean my word fellas. Will anything ever feel like that again?
I just remember the feeling of impending joy when the rumors started and it started to heat up. Little kid "is this real life" moment" going on.
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you hire people, not archetypes. hiring underwood (now) would be the most conventional move kstate could possibly make.
i'd love it.
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
Do you have a non-white candidate in mind?
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.kentucky.com%2Fsmedia%2F2014%2F04%2F04%2F17%2F33%2FyFo0v.AuSt.79.jpeg&hash=2315ae5fcb10cf4f061d1fae76b60034693f5be4)
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you hire people, not archetypes. hiring underwood (now) would be the most conventional move kstate could possibly make.
i'd love it.
This is me too. Not surprising from a fellow ISTJ though.
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Pretty sure we already had this thread.
Maybe Eddie Sutton @ OSU (after KSU passed on him)
I'm sure there have got to be other examples. Probably there are several coaches who were "pressured out" rather than fired, like Tubby at UK or Dana Altman at KSU (though Altman doesn't fit the mold of this question, because he went to Creighton next).
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Pretty sure we already had this thread.
Maybe Eddie Sutton @ OSU (after KSU passed on him)
I'm sure there have got to be other examples. Probably there are several coaches who were "pressured out" rather than fired, like Tubby at UK or Dana Altman at KSU (though Altman doesn't fit the mold of this question, because he went to Creighton next).
If you are sure about others, give em up. I'll even take "pressured out" ones. Sutton is probably a gray area (more likely was pressured to resign due to the scandal), but I will include him on the list.
So far:
Sutton from UK to hapless and moribund OSU (clearly OSU is on a lower level than UK, and they were struggling pretty bad so it was worth a risk to hire the hometown guy)
Smith from UK to hapless and moribund Minnesota (clearly Minnesota is on a lower level than UK)
Weber from UIUC to recently revitalized KSU which was actually more successful than UIUC over the past few years.
Smith from Minnesota to hapless and moribund Texas Tech
Wow hiring a coach who has just been fired for being a bad basketball coach looks like a great sign of a program's health!
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if we don't overthink it we'll get brad. currie will probably overthink it and hire some other dork. so in that sense maybe we should just stick with this squeaky dork we have now.
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Just throwing it out there, not sure what I think about it, but what about the Northern Iowa coach?
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Risky would be hiring Chet.
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Risky would be hiring Chet.
if someone had a gun in mouth and was pressuring me to hire someone on this staff, it'd be brooks by a landslide.
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I just want someone different. Someone for no other reason than because they haven't failed yet.
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Pretty sure we already had this thread.
Maybe Eddie Sutton @ OSU (after KSU passed on him)
I'm sure there have got to be other examples. Probably there are several coaches who were "pressured out" rather than fired, like Tubby at UK or Dana Altman at KSU (though Altman doesn't fit the mold of this question, because he went to Creighton next).
If you are sure about others, give em up. I'll even take "pressured out" ones. Sutton is probably a gray area (more likely was pressured to resign due to the scandal), but I will include him on the list.
So far:
Sutton from UK to hapless and moribund OSU (clearly OSU is on a lower level than UK, and they were struggling pretty bad so it was worth a risk to hire the hometown guy)
Smith from UK to hapless and moribund Minnesota (clearly Minnesota is on a lower level than UK)
Weber from UIUC to recently revitalized KSU which was actually more successful than UIUC over the past few years.
Smith from Minnesota to hapless and moribund Texas Tech
Wow hiring a coach who has just been fired for being a bad basketball coach looks like a great sign of a program's health!
steve alford was about to get canned by iowa, i believe, before he went to new mexico or new mexico state or whatever. that actually worked out well. for him, at least.
but, yeah, if you're asking if it was weird to hire weber. . . well, yeah.
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you guys, the day Huggins was hired was so freaking great. remember how excited you were? I mean my word fellas. Will anything ever feel like that again?
hiring jim tressell probably
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Just throwing it out there, not sure what I think about it, but what about the Northern Iowa coach?
as steve dave pointed out to me in another thread it more about recruiting these days than coaching. with that form of thinking i would go delante hill easily. cant get more risky than that
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We could easily get a way better recruiter than Dalonte Hill today.
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We could easily get a way better recruiter than Dalonte Hill today.
im not big into the basketball scene recruiting wise(aau is my main reason why) who would you put on that short list?
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
Do you have a non-white candidate in mind?
How about George Karl's protege Mitch Richmond?
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2015/2/12/8031207/mitch-richmond-to-join-george-karls-coaching-staff-in-sacramento (http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2015/2/12/8031207/mitch-richmond-to-join-george-karls-coaching-staff-in-sacramento)
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
Do you have a non-white candidate in mind?
How about George Karl's protege Mitch Richmond?
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2015/2/12/8031207/mitch-richmond-to-join-george-karls-coaching-staff-in-sacramento (http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2015/2/12/8031207/mitch-richmond-to-join-george-karls-coaching-staff-in-sacramento)
Do we think think he can recruit? Tucks might be able to get behind that hire, unless :opcat:
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
Do you have a non-white candidate in mind?
How about George Karl's protege Mitch Richmond?
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2015/2/12/8031207/mitch-richmond-to-join-george-karls-coaching-staff-in-sacramento (http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2015/2/12/8031207/mitch-richmond-to-join-george-karls-coaching-staff-in-sacramento)
Do we think think he can recruit?
Current scout for Kings, dashing good looks, NBAHOF'er -- who wouldn't play for him?
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Sutton's the only other "fired then moved on immediately to lesser program" I can think of. Weber resume included nothing like what Sutton accomplished at Arkansas.
The list of hook-up-with-less-program-before-you-get-canned list includes Altman, Smith (twice), Alford, Haith and McDermott.
I'd nominate Eustachy as an unconventional hire the tucks would hate and Currie would never make.
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We could easily get a way better recruiter than Dalonte Hill today.
im not big into the basketball scene recruiting wise(aau is my main reason why) who would you put on that short list?
I don't follow it that closely so I don't really know who the top recruiters are, but you know Dalonte got fired from Maryland, right?
And off the top of my head, Jerome Tang and Butch Pierre would both probably be much better recruiters for KSU as it stands today. I'm sure there's many, many more.
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We could easily get a way better recruiter than Dalonte Hill today.
im not big into the basketball scene recruiting wise(aau is my main reason why) who would you put on that short list?
I don't follow it that closely so I don't really know who the top recruiters are, but you know Dalonte got fired from Maryland, right?
And off the top of my head, Jerome Tang and Butch Pierre would both probably be much better recruiters for KSU as it stands today. I'm sure there's many, many more.
yes but he got fired for driving drunk all of the time. give him a stint in rehab and bam! slate cleaned
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We could easily get a way better recruiter than Dalonte Hill today.
im not big into the basketball scene recruiting wise(aau is my main reason why) who would you put on that short list?
I don't follow it that closely so I don't really know who the top recruiters are, but you know Dalonte got fired from Maryland, right?
And off the top of my head, Jerome Tang and Butch Pierre would both probably be much better recruiters for KSU as it stands today. I'm sure there's many, many more.
yes but he got fired for driving drunk all of the time. give him a stint in rehab and bam! slate cleaned
I would hire him as an assistant in a second but it I still think there are many, many head coach candidates who would be better recruiters than dalonte at this point in time. IMO the DUI thing doesn't hurt him as much if he isn't the face of the program.
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We could easily get a way better recruiter than Dalonte Hill today.
im not big into the basketball scene recruiting wise(aau is my main reason why) who would you put on that short list?
I don't follow it that closely so I don't really know who the top recruiters are, but you know Dalonte got fired from Maryland, right?
And off the top of my head, Jerome Tang and Butch Pierre would both probably be much better recruiters for KSU as it stands today. I'm sure there's many, many more.
yes but he got fired for driving drunk all of the time. give him a stint in rehab and bam! slate cleaned
I would hire him as an assistant in a second but it I still think there are many, many head coach candidates who would be better recruiters than dalonte at this point in time. IMO the DUI thing doesn't hurt him as much if he isn't the face of the program.
oh i agree with that completely. the next hire will most likely be a long shot regardless, assuming its after next year
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We could easily get a way better recruiter than Dalonte Hill today.
im not big into the basketball scene recruiting wise(aau is my main reason why) who would you put on that short list?
I don't follow it that closely so I don't really know who the top recruiters are, but you know Dalonte got fired from Maryland, right?
And off the top of my head, Jerome Tang and Butch Pierre would both probably be much better recruiters for KSU as it stands today. I'm sure there's many, many more.
yes but he got fired for driving drunk all of the time. give him a stint in rehab and bam! slate cleaned
I would hire him as an assistant in a second but it I still think there are many, many head coach candidates who would be better recruiters than dalonte at this point in time. IMO the DUI thing doesn't hurt him as much if he isn't the face of the program.
I don't want to minimize what Dalonte is as a recruiter but Curtis Malone going to the pen greatly reduces his appeal
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
Do you have a non-white candidate in mind?
How about George Karl's protege Mitch Richmond?
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2015/2/12/8031207/mitch-richmond-to-join-george-karls-coaching-staff-in-sacramento (http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2015/2/12/8031207/mitch-richmond-to-join-george-karls-coaching-staff-in-sacramento)
Do we think think he can recruit?
Current scout for Kings, dashing good looks, NBAHOF'er -- who wouldn't play for him?
If Mitch Richmond wants to coach, I'd be fine with giving him a chance.
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
Do you have a non-white candidate in mind?
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.kentucky.com%2Fsmedia%2F2014%2F04%2F04%2F17%2F33%2FyFo0v.AuSt.79.jpeg&hash=2315ae5fcb10cf4f061d1fae76b60034693f5be4)
USF is currently dead last in the American at 1-11 and 7-18 overall. His '15 recruiting class is nothing special either.
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Like, I know we'll probably hire some typical white guy mid major dork, but I'm 100% convinced that we should go unconventional, unless somehow a Brad Stevens fell magically into our lap.
Do you have a non-white candidate in mind?
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.kentucky.com%2Fsmedia%2F2014%2F04%2F04%2F17%2F33%2FyFo0v.AuSt.79.jpeg&hash=2315ae5fcb10cf4f061d1fae76b60034693f5be4)
USF is currently dead last in the American at 1-11 and 7-18 overall. His '15 recruiting class is nothing special either.
Not to mention the troubling reports that foreheads around Tampa have been mysteriously disappearing.
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An important (likely psychological) addendum:
You have programs A, B, and C. Programs A and B are in the same state and same conference. Program B is doing well enough, but really wants to be good as good as program A (which is a national power). Program A is on a great run of success after poaching the rising star and successful coach from Program C. So, when program B is need of a coach what do they do? They hire the coach who was recently fired from Program C. The coach who immediately followed the coach hired away by Program A, who lead Program C to it's worst season in history, and arguably has Program C worse than Program B.
The effect of knowing that success at C -> getting hired at A, while losing at C -> getting hired at B magnifies the oddness of the hiring. I can't imagine this ever happening before (two "rival" schools in the same conference hiring a coach from a third school with such different endings at that school).