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General Discussion => The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit => Topic started by: Kat Kid on November 21, 2014, 07:34:22 PM
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...and hauled you off.”
- Senator Jay Rockafellar (D- W.Va.) referring to reading the CIA Torture Report in to the Congressional record
Obama is every bit as culpable in the torture regime if those who participated it are not exposed and brought to justice.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/20/cia-torture-white-house_n_6195032.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/20/cia-torture-white-house_n_6195032.html)
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We're far too busy harassing, impoverishing, abusing and murdering our own citizens in the neo-totalitarian Obama police state for your stupid crusade to imprison Dick Cheney for torturing terrorists.
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The simple fact is, the all the stuff that Dems supposedly hated . . . just kept right on going after Obama was elected.
This is true. And disappointing.
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I'm glad we're still using torture to extract intelligence (like what helped us get OBL), and I'm also glad that libtards realize how hypocritical the Dems are on this ('cause, when you get elected, you actually have a stake in preventing terrorist attacks and have to behave like a grownup). It's a win win! :cheers:
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I'm glad we're still using torture to extract intelligence (like what helped us get OBL), and I'm also glad that libtards realize how hypocritical the Dems are on this ('cause, when you get elected, you actually have a stake in preventing terrorist attacks and have to behave like a grownup). It's a win win! :cheers:
Link?
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I'm glad we're still using torture to extract intelligence (like what helped us get OBL), and I'm also glad that libtards realize how hypocritical the Dems are on this ('cause, when you get elected, you actually have a stake in preventing terrorist attacks and have to behave like a grownup). It's a win win! :cheers:
You hate the rule of law and prefer tyranny to the republic.
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I'm glad we're still using torture to extract intelligence (like what helped us get OBL), and I'm also glad that libtards realize how hypocritical the Dems are on this ('cause, when you get elected, you actually have a stake in preventing terrorist attacks and have to behave like a grownup). It's a win win! :cheers:
You hate the rule of law and prefer tyranny to the republic.
Against non-Americans, the more tyranny the better. :yum:
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I'm glad we're still using torture to extract intelligence (like what helped us get OBL), and I'm also glad that libtards realize how hypocritical the Dems are on this ('cause, when you get elected, you actually have a stake in preventing terrorist attacks and have to behave like a grownup). It's a win win! :cheers:
Link?
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/panetta-torture-bin-laden/2013/02/04/id/488677/ (http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/panetta-torture-bin-laden/2013/02/04/id/488677/)
It is undeniable that leads obtained from waterboarding and other "torture" assisted in locating OBL. The best the PC apologists can claim is "well, we could have caught him anyway without those leads." Pure speculation.
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I'm glad we're still using torture to extract intelligence (like what helped us get OBL), and I'm also glad that libtards realize how hypocritical the Dems are on this ('cause, when you get elected, you actually have a stake in preventing terrorist attacks and have to behave like a grownup). It's a win win! :cheers:
Link?
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/panetta-torture-bin-laden/2013/02/04/id/488677/ (http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/panetta-torture-bin-laden/2013/02/04/id/488677/)
It is undeniable that leads obtained from waterboarding and other "torture" assisted in locating OBL. The best the PC apologists can claim is "well, we could have caught him anyway without those leads." Pure speculation.
I think that is the wrong link. It has the CIA director on record as saying they would have found him without torture and the lead that the bottom part of the article references was 7 years prior to the killing of OBL.
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Droning suspected terrorists and everyone within 200 yards = acceptable war strategy
Pouring water on suspected terrorists heads = criminal
Hi, I'm a libtard, and I have a perverted obsession with the bush administration
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I'm glad we're still using torture to extract intelligence (like what helped us get OBL), and I'm also glad that libtards realize how hypocritical the Dems are on this ('cause, when you get elected, you actually have a stake in preventing terrorist attacks and have to behave like a grownup). It's a win win! :cheers:
Link?
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/panetta-torture-bin-laden/2013/02/04/id/488677/ (http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/panetta-torture-bin-laden/2013/02/04/id/488677/)
It is undeniable that leads obtained from waterboarding and other "torture" assisted in locating OBL. The best the PC apologists can claim is "well, we could have caught him anyway without those leads." Pure speculation.
I think that is the wrong link. It has the CIA director on record as saying they would have found him without torture and the lead that the bottom part of the article references was 7 years prior to the killing of OBL.
That's what I said. (1) It is undeniable that leads from enhanced interrogation helped us find OBL (and who knows what else) and (2) the "official" apologist line is that "well, yeah, but we probably would have gotten him anyway."
There's a reason even libtards like Obama keep doing this in secret - it works.
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Droning suspected terrorists and everyone within 200 yards = acceptable war strategy
Pouring water on suspected terrorists heads = criminal
Hi, I'm a libtard, and I have a perverted obsession with the bush administration
Here's a crazy thought: How about we do neither of those things?
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I think we've learened from this thread that both the Obama administration and certain people on this BBS are just awful awful people.
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I'm glad we're still using torture to extract intelligence (like what helped us get OBL), and I'm also glad that libtards realize how hypocritical the Dems are on this ('cause, when you get elected, you actually have a stake in preventing terrorist attacks and have to behave like a grownup). It's a win win! :cheers:
You hate the rule of law and prefer tyranny to the republic.
Against non-Americans, the more tyranny the better. :yum:
So youre fine if American Soldiers are tortured the same way by enemy combatants, why the heck did we execute all those Japanese leaders after WW2 then?
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Droning suspected terrorists and everyone within 200 yards = acceptable war strategy
Pouring water on suspected terrorists heads = criminal
Hi, I'm a libtard, and I have a perverted obsession with the bush administration
Here's a crazy thought: How about we do neither of those things?
That probably is crazy, but it wouldn't bother me.
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I'm glad we're still using torture to extract intelligence (like what helped us get OBL), and I'm also glad that libtards realize how hypocritical the Dems are on this ('cause, when you get elected, you actually have a stake in preventing terrorist attacks and have to behave like a grownup). It's a win win! :cheers:
You hate the rule of law and prefer tyranny to the republic.
Against non-Americans, the more tyranny the better. :yum:
So youre fine if American Soldiers are tortured the same way by enemy combatants, why the heck did we execute all those Japanese leaders after WW2 then?
First, I'm not "fine" with it - that's why we hunt them down and kill them. Second, even if we banned all "torture" - your apparent belief that these thugs would extend us the same courtesy is laughable. Third, your attempt to draw an equivalency between the "torture" we engage in - waterboarding, sleep deprivation, stress positions, etc. - and the real attrocities committed by terrorists, the WWII Japanese, etc., is also laughable. In summary, your statement is completely ridiculous on multiple levels.
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I'm glad we're still using torture to extract intelligence (like what helped us get OBL), and I'm also glad that libtards realize how hypocritical the Dems are on this ('cause, when you get elected, you actually have a stake in preventing terrorist attacks and have to behave like a grownup). It's a win win! :cheers:
You hate the rule of law and prefer tyranny to the republic.
Against non-Americans, the more tyranny the better. :yum:
So youre fine if American Soldiers are tortured the same way by enemy combatants, why the heck did we execute all those Japanese leaders after WW2 then?
First, I'm not "fine" with it - that's why we hunt them down and kill them. Second, even if we banned all "torture" - your apparent belief that these thugs would extend us the same courtesy is laughable. Third, your attempt to draw an equivalency between the "torture" we engage in - waterboarding, sleep deprivation, stress positions, etc. - and the real attrocities committed by terrorists, the WWII Japanese, etc., is also laughable. In summary, your statement is completely ridiculous on multiple levels.
Ill agree the equivalency isnt there, but youre fine with Americans getting waterboarded, sleep deprived, and everything else? I do think someone has to take a moral stand for human dignity why not the supposed greatest country in the world?
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I'm glad we're still using torture to extract intelligence (like what helped us get OBL), and I'm also glad that libtards realize how hypocritical the Dems are on this ('cause, when you get elected, you actually have a stake in preventing terrorist attacks and have to behave like a grownup). It's a win win! :cheers:
Link?
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/panetta-torture-bin-laden/2013/02/04/id/488677/ (http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/panetta-torture-bin-laden/2013/02/04/id/488677/)
It is undeniable that leads obtained from waterboarding and other "torture" assisted in locating OBL. The best the PC apologists can claim is "well, we could have caught him anyway without those leads." Pure speculation.
I think that is the wrong link. It has the CIA director on record as saying they would have found him without torture and the lead that the bottom part of the article references was 7 years prior to the killing of OBL.
That's what I said. (1) It is undeniable that leads from enhanced interrogation helped us find OBL (and who knows what else) and (2) the "official" apologist line is that "well, yeah, but we probably would have gotten him anyway."
There's a reason even libtards like Obama keep doing this in secret - it works.
LoL
I love the radical right making up history to support their blood lust.
You people just can't handle the fact the best intelligence, the most actionable information, came from real intelligence work, not doing weird crap to people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Sorry you and Sean Hannity can't jerk off to "pouring water on suspected terrorists (sic) heads."
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Droning suspected terrorists and everyone within 200 yards = acceptable war strategy
Pouring water on suspected terrorists heads = criminal
Hi, I'm a libtard, and I have a perverted obsession with the bush administration
Here's a crazy thought: How about we do neither of those things?
yes, both of the things fsd mentioned are deplorable
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I'm glad we're still using torture to extract intelligence (like what helped us get OBL), and I'm also glad that libtards realize how hypocritical the Dems are on this ('cause, when you get elected, you actually have a stake in preventing terrorist attacks and have to behave like a grownup). It's a win win! :cheers:
You hate the rule of law and prefer tyranny to the republic.
Against non-Americans, the more tyranny the better. :yum:
So youre fine if American Soldiers are tortured the same way by enemy combatants, why the heck did we execute all those Japanese leaders after WW2 then?
First, I'm not "fine" with it - that's why we hunt them down and kill them. Second, even if we banned all "torture" - your apparent belief that these thugs would extend us the same courtesy is laughable. Third, your attempt to draw an equivalency between the "torture" we engage in - waterboarding, sleep deprivation, stress positions, etc. - and the real attrocities committed by terrorists, the WWII Japanese, etc., is also laughable. In summary, your statement is completely ridiculous on multiple levels.
Ill agree the equivalency isnt there, but youre fine with Americans getting waterboarded, sleep deprived, and everything else?
You realize you just described Navy Seal training, right? Regardless, I didn't say I'm fine with it. See above. But if, in your fantasy land, we could somehow limit terrorists to the same methods of "torture" we use, that would be a nice improvement.
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The simple fact is, the all the stuff that Dems supposedly hated . . . just kept right on going after Obama was elected.
Repubs and Dems guilty of the same crimes? I am shocked.
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Droning suspected terrorists and everyone within 200 yards = acceptable war strategy
Pouring water on suspected terrorists heads = criminal
Hi, I'm a libtard, and I have a perverted obsession with the bush administration
Here's a crazy thought: How about we do neither of those things?
yes, both of the things fsd mentioned are deplorable
I think you meant "all three", not both
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-waterboardings-role-in-identifying-a-terrorist/2014/12/08/40bc2578-7ee2-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-waterboardings-role-in-identifying-a-terrorist/2014/12/08/40bc2578-7ee2-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html)
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-waterboardings-role-in-identifying-a-terrorist/2014/12/08/40bc2578-7ee2-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-waterboardings-role-in-identifying-a-terrorist/2014/12/08/40bc2578-7ee2-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html)
It really is something how everyone involved in the torture of prisoners under U.S. authority has come out strongly against the report detailing how they tortured people.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-waterboardings-role-in-identifying-a-terrorist/2014/12/08/40bc2578-7ee2-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-waterboardings-role-in-identifying-a-terrorist/2014/12/08/40bc2578-7ee2-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html)
It really is something how everyone involved in the torture of prisoners under U.S. authority has come out strongly against the report detailing how they tortured people.
You're entitled to your own opinions, KK, but not your own facts. If you want to argue that waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation may be effective, but is still morally wrong, go right ahead.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-waterboardings-role-in-identifying-a-terrorist/2014/12/08/40bc2578-7ee2-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-waterboardings-role-in-identifying-a-terrorist/2014/12/08/40bc2578-7ee2-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html)
It really is something how everyone involved in the torture of prisoners under U.S. authority has come out strongly against the report detailing how they tortured people.
You're entitled to your own opinions, KK, but not your own facts. If you want to argue that waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation may be effective, but is still morally wrong, go right ahead.
"enhanced interrogation" is Orwellian double speak if I've ever heard it. You should go ahead and own the fact that you support torture, effective or not. I absolutely believe torture is wrong. Period. The fact that the CIA point person on torture destroyed the videotapes from the interrogation rooms is telling, is it not?
The facts are precisely why a comprehensive report about what happened is welcomed by no one in Washington D.C. Not Obama, not Bush, not the the members of torture bureaucracy.
I can only hope that the report (now over two years delayed, an including the bugging of Senate offices by the CIA) will indeed be released so that I don't have to weigh NYTimes reporting with self-interested sources against a Marc Thiessen piece that makes absolutely no excuses in its support for torture.
I welcome a full account of precisely what we have learned from torturing suspects, only then can we weigh it against violating the UN convention on torture ratified under Reagan. Remember, this report is only focused on the CIA programs and makes zero promise of any actual accountability for those that brazenly broke the law. But it is a start.
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KSUW you'll never guess who else hasn't read the report but thinks it is a bunch of lies.....Dick Cheney!
http://goo.gl/HHuWwA (http://goo.gl/HHuWwA)
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KSUW you'll never guess who else hasn't read the report but thinks it is a bunch of lies.....Dick Cheney!
http://goo.gl/HHuWwA (http://goo.gl/HHuWwA)
He doesn't need to read it, he lived it!
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Yeah you are right. Like this:(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftapatalk.imageshack.com%2Fv2%2F14%2F12%2F08%2Fc4aeffd6b773828fca0a508281f6847a.jpg&hash=e5d13ca85931af3a22280aca167870866cf18aa1)
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I'm reading this right now: http://www.amazon.com/Hubris-Inside-Story-Scandal-Selling/dp/030734682X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1418088038&sr=8-1&keywords=hubris
seems relevant to that interrogation
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Al-libi is a pseudonym, right? Like, that sounds like a terrorist that might hang out with Alotta Fagina from Austin Powers.
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I'm reading this right now: http://www.amazon.com/Hubris-Inside-Story-Scandal-Selling/dp/030734682X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1418088038&sr=8-1&keywords=hubris
seems relevant to that interrogation
It is a good book. I think the 1% doctrine is the best book for understanding Cheney though.
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It must be weird to have no moral compass of your own, but to only find morality on a purely partisan basis and on such a narrow basis. Such a fascinating study in the soulless leftbot.
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It must be weird to have no moral compass of your own, but to only find morality on a purely partisan basis and on such a narrow basis. Such a fascinating study in the soulless leftbot.
have you noticed kk saying Obama is just as guilty? you don't need to answer
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It must be weird to have no moral compass of your own, but to only find morality on a purely partisan basis and on such a narrow basis. Such a fascinating study in the soulless leftbot.
have you noticed kk saying Obama is just as guilty? you don't need to answer
That's not my point, and it's not just KK I'm talking about. But let's be real, these people only acknowledge Obama is in the wrong when someone forces them to. Otherwise it's a pathetic crusade against bush cheney.
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"enhanced interrogation" is Orwellian double speak if I've ever heard it. You should go ahead and own the fact that you support torture, effective or not.
Just so there's no confusion, I'll go right ahead and "own" supporting this kind of "torture." I use the term "enhanced interrogation" not to sugarcoat things, but because it's easier than saying "waterboarding, stress positions, sleep deprivation, nudity, and all the other things we did to eventually wear these fuckers down into submission." None of that is real "torture." For that, you should ask the Japanese, the NVA, the very savages we're currently fighting, etc.
This is not a debate I'm really interested in having with you. As I said, you are entitled to your opinion. I'm not going to change it. I'm just going to point out the fact that "enhanced interrogation" (see list above) produced valuable intel.
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"enhanced interrogation" is Orwellian double speak if I've ever heard it. You should go ahead and own the fact that you support torture, effective or not.
Just so there's no confusion, I'll go right ahead and "own" supporting this kind of "torture." I use the term "enhanced interrogation" not to sugarcoat things, but because it's easier than saying "waterboarding, stress positions, sleep deprivation, nudity, and all the other things we did to eventually wear these fuckers down into submission." None of that is real "torture." For that, you should ask the Japanese, the NVA, the very savages we're currently fighting, etc.
This is not a debate I'm really interested in having with you. As I said, you are entitled to your opinion. I'm not going to change it. I'm just going to point out the fact that "enhanced interrogation" (see list above) produced valuable intel.
That is a serious claim that should have more support than a Marc Thiessen op-Ed. What if it did get us Jose Padilla but also got us lots of false leads like the one I posted.
I just don't know how anyone who has made someone else say "uncle" could legitimately think that this regime would produce quality intelligence.
Also, you should really read up on the Nazis and the enhanced interrogation techniques they used. In fact the term is borrowed from the Gestapo. It was specifically designed to prevent later prosecution for war crimes as it left no marks. It included:
Dark cell
Sleep deprivation
Hard bed
Exhaustion exercises
Hitting prisoners with a stick up to 20 blows. More than 20 and a doctor had to be present.
So yeah, it pisses me off that the United States of America has resorted to literally Gestapo techniques both in actual actions and in propaganda. That goes for Bush and Obama. Holder, Brennan, Kerry, Clinton all of them should be judged as morally equivalent to Cheney.
At least Cheney owns his bloodthirsty rage. The Obama administration just cravenly covers our past, Guantanamo and our ongoing global drone wars. I have little hope that this report will change anything today, but hopefully it will serve as an important historical document that will help shed light on this darkness.
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That is a serious claim that should have more support than a Marc Thiessen op-Ed. What if it did get us Jose Padilla but also got us lots of false leads like the one I posted.
I'll go ahead and assume that it yielded a lot of false leads, just like any other kind of interrogation. It also got people talking and yielded valuable intel.
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That is a serious claim that should have more support than a Marc Thiessen op-Ed. What if it did get us Jose Padilla but also got us lots of false leads like the one I posted.
I'll go ahead and assume that it yielded a lot of false leads, just like any other kind of interrogation. It also got people talking and yielded valuable intel.
just like any other kind of interrogation
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https://www.scribd.com/doc/246578813/An-Interrogator-Breaks-His-Silence (https://www.scribd.com/doc/246578813/An-Interrogator-Breaks-His-Silence)
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https://www.scribd.com/doc/246578813/An-Interrogator-Breaks-His-Silence (https://www.scribd.com/doc/246578813/An-Interrogator-Breaks-His-Silence)
did not read but goddam what an bad person. Is this supposed to be an argument for torture?
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Well, here it is (http://www.scribd.com/doc/249651730/CIA-Torture-Report)
As for the relative success of the CIA's torture sessions:
The Senate Intelligence Committee reviewed 20 cited examples of intelligence “successes” that the CIA identified from the interrogation program and found that there was no relationship between a cited counterterrorism success and the techniques used. Furthermore, the information gleaned during torture sessions merely corroborated information already available to the intelligence community from other sources, including reports, communications intercepts, and information from law enforcement agencies, the committee found.
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Washington (CNN) -- The CIA's harsh interrogations of terrorist detainees during the Bush era didn't work, were more brutal than previously revealed and delivered no "ticking time bomb" information that prevented an attack....
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CNN still won't call it torture though.
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Wow. Bush had no idea what his administration was doing FOR FOUR YEARS and was purposefully kept in the dark by people in his administration and the CIA.
[D]espite agency efforts to keep the Bush administration informed about the program, top White House officials repeatedly resisted having the CIA brief cabinet-level figures about the details, and CIA officials were not permitted to brief Bush directly until mid-2006, more than four years after the president signed a broad executive order authorizing the program, according to Senate Democratic aides who briefed reporters ahead of Tuesday’s release.
When Bush finally heard the details of the harsh interrogation techniques that were used against CIA detainees, he was “uncomfortable” with some of them and expressed dismay that some detainees were required to remain in stress positions for long amounts of time, to the point that they had no choice but to soil themselves, the aides said.
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Well, here it is (http://www.scribd.com/doc/249651730/CIA-Torture-Report)
As for the relative success of the CIA's torture sessions:
The Senate Intelligence Committee reviewed 20 cited examples of intelligence “successes” that the CIA identified from the interrogation program and found that there was no relationship between a cited counterterrorism success and the techniques used. Furthermore, the information gleaned during torture sessions merely corroborated information already available to the intelligence community from other sources, including reports, communications intercepts, and information from law enforcement agencies, the committee found.
Good to know Senator Feinstein (D-CA) is okay droning alleged terrorists and every man, woman and child within 200 yards, based upon uncorroborated intelligence.
You are fooling yourself if you can't see through the partisan bullshit here.
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Wow. Bush had no idea what his administration was doing FOR FOUR YEARS and was purposefully kept in the dark by people in his administration and the CIA.
Not surprising. Kind of like Obama and Obamacare. You're not lying if you don't know.
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Keep beating the partisan drum fsd, it's making you look very intelligent :thumbs:
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Keep beating the partisan drum fsd, it's making you look very intelligent :thumbs:
He is the voice of the silent majority center, IMO.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4bXW7-IYAEbHe_.png:large)
killed a guy, no repercussions, because
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4bruz-CIAEbQOb.png:large)
:sdeek:
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well that seems particularly 'enhanced'
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Enhanced sodomy techniques
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKI9TBR-XQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKI9TBR-XQ)
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4bruz-CIAEbQOb.png:large)
:sdeek:
Renocat is going to love that snippet.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4bruz-CIAEbQOb.png:large)
:sdeek:
Renocat is going to love that snippet.
I bet he donates to his political party of choice after reading that.
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We dont use enhanced enough in our everyday vocabulary. So I'm gonna try and use it more everyday. Thanks for the suggestion Chant.
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There was rectal rehydration as well as broomstick rough ridin'. That's pretty creative.
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ficonicphotos.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F09%2Fsetembro_0002.jpg%3Fw%3D700%26amp%3Bh%3D465&hash=4da9054b18b63300562a0c609e4de9962de77c50)
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ficonicphotos.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F09%2Fsetembro_0002.jpg%3Fw%3D700%26amp%3Bh%3D465&hash=4da9054b18b63300562a0c609e4de9962de77c50)
WELP THAT DOES IT, MY MIND IS CHANGED.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKI9TBR-XQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKI9TBR-XQ)
The Geneva Conventions and our own laws on torture are very clear that special circumstances are no justification for breaking these laws.
Obama will be busy issuing pardons for quite some time unless the United States does not want to withdraw from the Geneva Conventions and the UN Convention on Torture. I doubt Bush, Cheney or anyone that worked for the CIA will be visiting Europe any time soon.
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F40.media.tumblr.com%2F931511dcf88fcb99e00ec741a15a82d4%2Ftumblr_nbtasjgcpl1sm6o86o1_500.jpg&hash=2dcda3e67b045f6aa22936d55e6798308bef1609)
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
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Get rid of 100% of the guns because Newtown, CT.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKI9TBR-XQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKI9TBR-XQ)
The Geneva Conventions and our own laws on torture are very clear that special circumstances are no justification for breaking these laws.
Obama will be busy issuing pardons for quite some time unless the United States does not want to withdraw from the Geneva Conventions and the UN Convention on Torture. I doubt Bush, Cheney or anyone that worked for the CIA will be visiting Europe any time soon.
Does the Geneva conventions extend to ISIS and AQ? It doesn't seem like they are following the guidelines.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKI9TBR-XQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKI9TBR-XQ)
The Geneva Conventions and our own laws on torture are very clear that special circumstances are no justification for breaking these laws.
Obama will be busy issuing pardons for quite some time unless the United States does not want to withdraw from the Geneva Conventions and the UN Convention on Torture. I doubt Bush, Cheney or anyone that worked for the CIA will be visiting Europe any time soon.
Does the Geneva conventions extend to ISIS and AQ? It doesn't seem like they are following the guidelines.
They are not, but as signers of it I believe it extends to how we treat all enemy combatants. The argument that they are doing it, so it makes it right is stupid.
I'm probably too Christian about it, but this is a black and white issue and its always wrong, no matter what the enemy is doing.
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
I've already admitted what was done, repeatedly, and said that I don't have a problem with it. Now I'm just shredding your moral superiority complex.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstrength4thejourney.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fabout-to-jump.jpg&hash=91bb293f34ce578a3ad3490ceb20b291d2fe2b81)
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
I've already admitted what was done, repeatedly, and said that I don't have a problem with it. Now I'm just shredding your moral superiority complex.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstrength4thejourney.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fabout-to-jump.jpg&hash=91bb293f34ce578a3ad3490ceb20b291d2fe2b81)
Do you believe in American Exceptionalism? Just wondering.
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Wacky, don't come in here.
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man, K-S-U is shredding moral superiority complexes left and right
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man, K-S-U is shredding moral superiority complexes left and right
It's what he was born to do
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it's a very enhanced shredding, i don't know if KK will ever recover
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it's a very enhanced shredding, i don't know if KK will ever recover
good use of the word enhanced :eye:
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
I've already admitted what was done, repeatedly, and said that I don't have a problem with it. Now I'm just shredding your moral superiority complex.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstrength4thejourney.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fabout-to-jump.jpg&hash=91bb293f34ce578a3ad3490ceb20b291d2fe2b81)
What if we tortured an innocent person to death. Do you have a problem with that?
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
I've already admitted what was done, repeatedly, and said that I don't have a problem with it. Now I'm just shredding your moral superiority complex.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstrength4thejourney.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fabout-to-jump.jpg&hash=91bb293f34ce578a3ad3490ceb20b291d2fe2b81)
What if we tortured an innocent person to death. Do you have a problem with that?
Yes. Can you give me an example of that happening?
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
I've already admitted what was done, repeatedly, and said that I don't have a problem with it. Now I'm just shredding your moral superiority complex.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstrength4thejourney.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fabout-to-jump.jpg&hash=91bb293f34ce578a3ad3490ceb20b291d2fe2b81)
Do you believe in American Exceptionalism? Just wondering.
Sure do. But I think the "we're better than that" mantra sort of goes out the window when our innocent citizens are literally jumping out of windows to their deaths as a preferred alternative to burning to death. That seems like much worse torture than anything detailed in the report.
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
I've already admitted what was done, repeatedly, and said that I don't have a problem with it. Now I'm just shredding your moral superiority complex.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstrength4thejourney.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fabout-to-jump.jpg&hash=91bb293f34ce578a3ad3490ceb20b291d2fe2b81)
Do you believe in American Exceptionalism? Just wondering.
Sure do. But I think the "we're better than that" mantra sort of goes out the window when our innocent citizens are literally jumping out of windows to their deaths as a preferred alternative to burning to death. That seems like much worse torture than anything detailed in the report.
If they were justified, why did they try so insanely hard to cover it up?
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
I've already admitted what was done, repeatedly, and said that I don't have a problem with it. Now I'm just shredding your moral superiority complex.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstrength4thejourney.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fabout-to-jump.jpg&hash=91bb293f34ce578a3ad3490ceb20b291d2fe2b81)
Do you believe in American Exceptionalism? Just wondering.
Sure do. But I think the "we're better than that" mantra sort of goes out the window when our innocent citizens are literally jumping out of windows to their deaths as a preferred alternative to burning to death. That seems like much worse torture than anything detailed in the report.
If they were justified, why did they try so insanely hard to cover it up?
Probably because reports like this are a blueprint for AQ on how to handle capture and interrogation?
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(https://sullydish.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/screen-shot-2014-12-09-at-2-19-30-pm.png?w=580&h=233)
(https://sullydish.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/screen-shot-2014-12-09-at-2-21-07-pm.png?w=580&h=140p)
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
I've already admitted what was done, repeatedly, and said that I don't have a problem with it. Now I'm just shredding your moral superiority complex.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstrength4thejourney.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fabout-to-jump.jpg&hash=91bb293f34ce578a3ad3490ceb20b291d2fe2b81)
Do you believe in American Exceptionalism? Just wondering.
Sure do. But I think the "we're better than that" mantra sort of goes out the window when our innocent citizens are literally jumping out of windows to their deaths as a preferred alternative to burning to death. That seems like much worse torture than anything detailed in the report.
No, it goes out the window when we decide to torture some folks.
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
I've already admitted what was done, repeatedly, and said that I don't have a problem with it. Now I'm just shredding your moral superiority complex.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstrength4thejourney.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fabout-to-jump.jpg&hash=91bb293f34ce578a3ad3490ceb20b291d2fe2b81)
What if we tortured an innocent person to death. Do you have a problem with that?
Yes. Can you give me an example of that happening?
Gul Rahman
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/who-killed-gul-rahman (http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/who-killed-gul-rahman)
The suspect, Gul Rahman, reportedly died after having been stripped naked from the waist down and shackled in a cell in which the temperature dipped to approximately thirty-six degrees Fahrenheit. Subsequent forensic examinations determined that he had frozen to death.
Torture Report page 16 footnote 32
http://www.scribd.com/doc/249651730/CIA-Torture-Report (http://www.scribd.com/doc/249651730/CIA-Torture-Report)
"..a total of 26 of the 119 of the (22 percent) CIA detainees identified in this Study, did not meet the MON standard for detention."
Footnote 32-
"...Gul Rahman another case of mistaken identity (Headquarters REDACTED)
Pretty clear evidence. Keep in mind, this isn't me saying he's innocent, it is the CIA's internal assessment.
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It must be weird to have no moral compass of your own, but to only find morality on a purely partisan basis and on such a narrow basis. Such a fascinating study in the soulless leftbot.
2 additional pages documenting the same.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2fMyd-vKHI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2fMyd-vKHI)
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It must be weird to have no moral compass of your own, but to only find morality on a purely partisan basis and on such a narrow basis. Such a fascinating study in the soulless leftbot.
2 additional pages documenting the same.
Would Jesus torture these folks?
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
I've already admitted what was done, repeatedly, and said that I don't have a problem with it. Now I'm just shredding your moral superiority complex.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstrength4thejourney.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fabout-to-jump.jpg&hash=91bb293f34ce578a3ad3490ceb20b291d2fe2b81)
Do you believe in American Exceptionalism? Just wondering.
Sure do. But I think the "we're better than that" mantra sort of goes out the window when our innocent citizens are literally jumping out of windows to their deaths as a preferred alternative to burning to death. That seems like much worse torture than anything detailed in the report.
If they were justified, why did they try so insanely hard to cover it up?
Probably because reports like this are a blueprint for AQ on how to handle capture and interrogation?
You think that it's news to them CIA was using these enhanced techniques? you don't actually, right?
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It amazes me that people can be so "small government" and "rule of law" then turn a 180 and completely support government taking action that explicitly violates those very principles. Amazes is the wrong word. It disgusts me.
Then those same people keep on going, cheer and applaud when a bunch of cops kill a dude for basically trying to sell loosies without paying taxes.
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We dont use enhanced enough in our everyday vocabulary. So I'm gonna try and use it more everyday. Thanks for the suggestion Chant.
Enhanced bread.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.toast-chicago.com%2Fimg%2Fbig-toast-img.png&hash=4a74a8a99273875648850d72ac618f541a8313cc)
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
sorry kk. I made my post before reading this.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4bruz-CIAEbQOb.png:large)
:sdeek:
Prolapse literally means "to fall out of place‚" from the Latin prolabi meaning "to fall out." In medicine, prolapse is a condition where organs, such as the uterus, fall down or slip out of place.
I didn't know butts could do that.
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Why does our government's moral compass begin and end with torture of non-citizen "enemy combatants"?
In times of war, do morals remain static, or should they change to protect the society establishing them?
If corporations can't have religious values, how can a government have morals?
It's far to easy to quip (for partisan reasons) that you are black and white opposed to these things while remaining silent concerning other immorality.
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Why does our government's moral compass begin and end with torture of non-citizen "enemy combatants"?
In times of war, do morals remain static, or should they change to protect the society establishing them?
If corporations can't have religious values, how can a government have morals?
It's far to easy to quip (for partisan reasons) that you are black and white opposed to these things while remaining silent concerning other immorality.
None of those things. The rule of law should stand. The Constitution should stand. The Republic should stand.
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Why does our government's moral compass begin and end with torture of non-citizen "enemy combatants"?
In times of war, do morals remain static, or should they change to protect the society establishing them?
If corporations can't have religious values, how can a government have morals?
It's far to easy to quip (for partisan reasons) that you are black and white opposed to these things while remaining silent concerning other immorality.
Be transparent and let your bosses decide.
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Why does our government's moral compass begin and end with torture of non-citizen "enemy combatants"?
In times of war, do morals remain static, or should they change to protect the society establishing them?
If corporations can't have religious values, how can a government have morals?
It's far to easy to quip (for partisan reasons) that you are black and white opposed to these things while remaining silent concerning other immorality.
It doesn't. Our government also kills defenseless prisoners, incarcerates non-violent offenders, etc.
Yes, they remain static. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
The government does not have morals. The people voting for our representatives do, and we should vote out anyone who supports this.
What other immorality are you referring to?
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How much money would we save by just shutting down the CIA? (old article):
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2007/12/abolish_the_cia.html
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Why does our government's moral compass begin and end with torture of non-citizen "enemy combatants"?
In times of war, do morals remain static, or should they change to protect the society establishing them?
If corporations can't have religious values, how can a government have morals?
It's far to easy to quip (for partisan reasons) that you are black and white opposed to these things while remaining silent concerning other immorality.
None of those things. The rule of law should stand. The Constitution should stand. The Republic should stand.
We now know the president can ignore the rule of law.
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Lots of us have known that for a long time.
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Remember Ronald Reagan signed the UN Convention on Torture and we are bound by it:
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftapatalk.imageshack.com%2Fv2%2F14%2F12%2F09%2F3a7e76985b1192cadab82417c7dfd5e8.jpg&hash=1cf11fecf01d8d953388b27a16f5abe74e79be58)
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KSUW is unable to admit what was done is his name, so he changes the subject. When he says he cares about the Constitution and the rule of law, remember this moment.
I've already admitted what was done, repeatedly, and said that I don't have a problem with it. Now I'm just shredding your moral superiority complex.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstrength4thejourney.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fabout-to-jump.jpg&hash=91bb293f34ce578a3ad3490ceb20b291d2fe2b81)
Do you believe in American Exceptionalism? Just wondering.
Sure do. But I think the "we're better than that" mantra sort of goes out the window when our innocent citizens are literally jumping out of windows to their deaths as a preferred alternative to burning to death. That seems like much worse torture than anything detailed in the report.
I guess well just have to disagree. I for one don't believe in American Exceptionalism and I think torture is wrong and the government shouldn't use it because there should be laws about how treat humans, even if the other side doesn't abide by those laws.
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Why does our government's moral compass begin and end with torture of non-citizen "enemy combatants"?
In times of war, do morals remain static, or should they change to protect the society establishing them?
If corporations can't have religious values, how can a government have morals?
It's far to easy to quip (for partisan reasons) that you are black and white opposed to these things while remaining silent concerning other immorality.
I think the Supreme Court ruled corporations can have religious values.
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Remember Ronald Reagan signed the UN Convention on Torture and we are bound by it:
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftapatalk.imageshack.com%2Fv2%2F14%2F12%2F09%2F3a7e76985b1192cadab82417c7dfd5e8.jpg&hash=1cf11fecf01d8d953388b27a16f5abe74e79be58)
Cheney pretty much pwned RR
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Why does our government's moral compass begin and end with torture of non-citizen "enemy combatants"?
In times of war, do morals remain static, or should they change to protect the society establishing them?
If corporations can't have religious values, how can a government have morals?
It's far to easy to quip (for partisan reasons) that you are black and white opposed to these things while remaining silent concerning other immorality.
None of those things. The rule of law should stand. The Constitution should stand. The Republic should stand.
Answer the questions you rough ridin' hypocrite.
What constitutional rights do nonresident aliens on foreign soil possess?
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The shear timing of all of this is lolz
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It's 2014 surely we can shoot them full of something and they will sing like a bird.
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It's 2014 surely we can shoot them full of something and they will sing like a bird.
Not enhanced enough
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Sad:
Diane and company knew all about it, they spent $40 million to CYA themselves.
Black sites continue to exist today. $40 million wasted.
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When you're getting your brains beat in at the polls and nobody likes you, fire up the blame bush train. We've got a guy testifying about the lies and deceit that went into passing Obamacare (is lying a moral issue?) which has caused hundreds of millions of dollars of waste and redistribution of wealth (surely taking from one person to give to another could be characterized as immoral), and all of the sudden this pops up.
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When you're getting your brains beat in at the polls and nobody likes you, fire up the blame bush train. We've got a guy testifying about the lies and deceit that went into passing Obamacare (is lying a moral issue?) which has caused hundreds of millions of dollars of waste and redistribution of wealth (surely taking from one person to give to another could be characterized as immoral), and all of the sudden this pops up.
This part made me laugh. Comparing taxes to torture.
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When you're getting your brains beat in at the polls and nobody likes you, fire up the blame bush train. We've got a guy testifying about the lies and deceit that went into passing Obamacare (is lying a moral issue?) which has caused hundreds of millions of dollars of waste and redistribution of wealth (surely taking from one person to give to another could be characterized as immoral), and all of the sudden this pops up.
Shutting down the CIA would probably eliminate even more waste! I can get on board with this idea, FSD.
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It's a shame for you cRustyMichMichicat that this administration loves them some CIA, and has pretty much thrown open the gates for them since they took office.
It's just not talked about, because after all, Obama is a Democrat.
Now the CIA people feel $hit upon because the were doing exactly what the previous and the current administration wanted to them to do.
Next stop, trying to find some more bad guys to help us create more chaos in Syria. But hey, we tortured some people 10 years ago.
What a side show from Diane and company.
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When you're getting your brains beat in at the polls and nobody likes you, fire up the blame bush train. We've got a guy testifying about the lies and deceit that went into passing Obamacare (is lying a moral issue?) which has caused hundreds of millions of dollars of waste and redistribution of wealth (surely taking from one person to give to another could be characterized as immoral), and all of the sudden this pops up.
This part made me laugh. Comparing taxes to torture.
You aren't even on the same planet as I am.
We're talking about morality, not which is "more immoral" to the extent there are degrees of immorality. Taxes to pay for common goods and services like roads, military, national forests, etc. are much different from taxes that do nothing more than take money from one group of people and give it to another. That could easily be characterized as immoral or "stealing".
You're posting makes me believe you are to stupid to be involved in this dialogue. But I'll hold off on making that conclusion for now.
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When you're getting your brains beat in at the polls and nobody likes you, fire up the blame bush train. We've got a guy testifying about the lies and deceit that went into passing Obamacare (is lying a moral issue?) which has caused hundreds of millions of dollars of waste and redistribution of wealth (surely taking from one person to give to another could be characterized as immoral), and all of the sudden this pops up.
Shutting down the CIA would probably eliminate even more waste! I can get on board with this idea, FSD.
I think we just need to pick one. Do we really need a cia, a military, a homeland security, a nsa, an fbi, etc. ?
We also need to stop vesting so much unchecked order in the executive branch. But you like having unelected people make laws (immoral under our agreed upon form of govt.?), so I doubt I can get you that far.
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It's a shame for you cRustyMichMichicat that this administration loves them some CIA, and has pretty much thrown open the gates for them since they took office.
It's just not talked about, because after all, Obama is a Democrat.
Now the CIA people feel $hit upon because the were doing exactly what the previous and the current administration wanted to them to do.
Next stop, trying to find some more bad guys to help us create more chaos in Syria. But hey, we tortured some people 10 years ago.
What a side show from Diane and company.
This is why I voted for Ron Paul in the primary.
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Over 20 U.S. Airstrikes inside Syria in the last 2 months, against an organization that we pretty much helped create. Meanwhile the Pres is looking at the possibility of the CIA/JSOC et. al. setting up more "training" camps for "moderate" rebels to help overthrow Assad in what is already a massive humanitarian crisis and will ultimately be one of the biggest humanitarian crisis in decades.
But, the U.S. tortured some guys 10 years.
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I voted for the Green Party Candidate because I knew both republicans and democrats support this kind of bullshit.
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The CIA shouldnt be gotten rid of, but should be seriously leashed in. I recommend we put Edward Snowden in charge.
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I'm still amazed that the human bad person can fall out of itself. #prolapsed
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I'm still amazed that the human bad person can fall out of itself. #prolapsed
Same thing with a vagina, cow vaginas are one of the worst. Just falling out err'where.
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When you're getting your brains beat in at the polls and nobody likes you, fire up the blame bush train. We've got a guy testifying about the lies and deceit that went into passing Obamacare (is lying a moral issue?) which has caused hundreds of millions of dollars of waste and redistribution of wealth (surely taking from one person to give to another could be characterized as immoral), and all of the sudden this pops up.
This part made me laugh. Comparing taxes to torture.
You aren't even on the same planet as I am.
We're talking about morality, not which is "more immoral" to the extent there are degrees of immorality. Taxes to pay for common goods and services like roads, military, national forests, etc. are much different from taxes that do nothing more than take money from one group of people and give it to another. That could easily be characterized as immoral or "stealing".
You're posting makes me believe you are to stupid to be involved in this dialogue. But I'll hold off on making that conclusion for now.
I just think we as a society, made a decision at some point to redistribute some wealth for the betterment of society. If you really see that as immoral then I guess that sucks for you. That redistribution was created by the rule of law, and has been upheld in courts. The CIA torture thing was against the rule of law. If you cant tell the difference I don't know what to tell you.
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roads and militaries are redistribution of wealth, FWIW.
But yeah, the bit about the "interrogator" snapping his finger and the prisoner getting on the torture table? Holy crap. Also the bad person falling out thing. eff these guys. #BurnItDown
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roads and militaries are redistribution of wealth, FWIW.
But yeah, the bit about the "interrogator" snapping his finger and the prisoner getting on the torture table? Holy crap. Also the bad person falling out thing. eff these guys. #BurnItDown
Really any tax based on income is a redistribution of wealth, but whatevs Im just a stupid.
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Kinda surprised that bread isn't familiar with the "pink sock"
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There is a pic of a power lifter whose bad person fell out while he was squatting. Very popular pic when I was in high school.
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guys.
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This is what they want. The more pink sock that is distracting you, the more torture they can do without you demanding it to stop.
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This thread is also why I love the language filter
"prolapsed bad person " :lol:
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When you're getting your brains beat in at the polls and nobody likes you, fire up the blame bush train. We've got a guy testifying about the lies and deceit that went into passing Obamacare (is lying a moral issue?) which has caused hundreds of millions of dollars of waste and redistribution of wealth (surely taking from one person to give to another could be characterized as immoral), and all of the sudden this pops up.
This part made me laugh. Comparing taxes to torture.
You aren't even on the same planet as I am.
We're talking about morality, not which is "more immoral" to the extent there are degrees of immorality. Taxes to pay for common goods and services like roads, military, national forests, etc. are much different from taxes that do nothing more than take money from one group of people and give it to another. That could easily be characterized as immoral or "stealing".
You're posting makes me believe you are to stupid to be involved in this dialogue. But I'll hold off on making that conclusion for now.
I just think we as a society, made a decision at some point to redistribute some wealth for the betterment of society. If you really see that as immoral then I guess that sucks for you. That redistribution was created by the rule of law, and has been upheld in courts. The CIA torture thing was against the rule of law. If you cant tell the difference I don't know what to tell you.
You're still trying to distinguish degrees of morality, or at least use it to justify you're incongruent position.
Societal decisions allowed for slavery. If that's your metric for morality, I think you're confused. Also, courts have upheld "enhanced interrogation " so that point is just wrong.
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When you're getting your brains beat in at the polls and nobody likes you, fire up the blame bush train. We've got a guy testifying about the lies and deceit that went into passing Obamacare (is lying a moral issue?) which has caused hundreds of millions of dollars of waste and redistribution of wealth (surely taking from one person to give to another could be characterized as immoral), and all of the sudden this pops up.
This part made me laugh. Comparing taxes to torture.
You aren't even on the same planet as I am.
We're talking about morality, not which is "more immoral" to the extent there are degrees of immorality. Taxes to pay for common goods and services like roads, military, national forests, etc. are much different from taxes that do nothing more than take money from one group of people and give it to another. That could easily be characterized as immoral or "stealing".
You're posting makes me believe you are to stupid to be involved in this dialogue. But I'll hold off on making that conclusion for now.
I just think we as a society, made a decision at some point to redistribute some wealth for the betterment of society. If you really see that as immoral then I guess that sucks for you. That redistribution was created by the rule of law, and has been upheld in courts. The CIA torture thing was against the rule of law. If you cant tell the difference I don't know what to tell you.
You're still trying to distinguish degrees of morality, or at least use it to justify you're incongruent position.
Societal decisions allowed for slavery. If that's your metric for morality, I think you're confused. Also, courts have upheld "enhanced interrogation " so that point is just wrong.
So do you agree that any income tax is redistribution? If someone pays more for a public good than another that is technically redistribution of wealth. Like what level of redistribution makes something immoral?
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FSD,
I honestly I don't care if people who can afford it have to pay a little more in taxes. I do care that we tortured fellow human beings. If that is morally incongruent, then I guess I'm stupid and a hypocrite.
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FSD,
I honestly I don't care if people who can afford it have to pay a little more in taxes. I do care that we tortured fellow human beings. If that is morally incongruent, then I guess I'm stupid and a hypocrite.
"fellow human beings"
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FSD,
I honestly I don't care if people who can afford it have to pay a little more in taxes. I do care that we tortured fellow human beings. If that is morally incongruent, then I guess I'm stupid and a hypocrite.
"fellow human beings"
they weren't when the CIA was finished with 'em amirite? :cheers:
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FSD,
I honestly I don't care if people who can afford it have to pay a little more in taxes. I do care that we tortured fellow human beings. If that is morally incongruent, then I guess I'm stupid and a hypocrite.
"fellow human beings"
At what point does one lose it's human dignity? Rape or murder? Just wondering where you set the line for those who are human and those that arent. I mean the Nazis tried to kill an entire race of people and we still treated them as humans.
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FSD,
I honestly I don't care if people who can afford it have to pay a little more in taxes. I do care that we tortured fellow human beings. If that is morally incongruent, then I guess I'm stupid and a hypocrite.
"fellow human beings"
At what point does one lose it's human dignity? Rape or murder? Just wondering where you set the line for those who are human and those that arent. I mean the Nazis tried to kill an entire race of people and we still treated them as humans.
They never do, chuckjames.
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roads and militaries are redistribution of wealth, FWIW.
But yeah, the bit about the "interrogator" snapping his finger and the prisoner getting on the torture table? Holy crap. Also the bad person falling out thing. eff these guys. #BurnItDown
Really any tax based on income is a redistribution of wealth, but whatevs Im just a stupid.
This isn't true. There are taxes used to support infrastructure, protection against invasion of the US and our allies, and civic support (police, fire, etc), which are necessary. Then there are taxes used to subsidize political voting blocks of people, or redistribution of wealth, which is unnecessary.
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redistribution of wealth that is "necessary" is still redistribution of wealth.
But yeah, torturing folks.
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roads and militaries are redistribution of wealth, FWIW.
But is it immoral wealth redistribution? Everyone benefits from roads (you do not need a car, fyi). Not everyone benefits from some guy getting something.
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FSD,
I honestly I don't care if people who can afford it have to pay a little more in taxes. I do care that we tortured fellow human beings. If that is morally incongruent, then I guess I'm stupid and a hypocrite.
"fellow human beings"
At what point does one lose it's human dignity? Rape or murder? Just wondering where you set the line for those who are human and those that arent. I mean the Nazis tried to kill an entire race of people and we still treated them as humans.
They never do, chuckjames.
Until society decides they do. Maybe we should put it to vote.
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When you're getting your brains beat in at the polls and nobody likes you, fire up the blame bush train. We've got a guy testifying about the lies and deceit that went into passing Obamacare (is lying a moral issue?) which has caused hundreds of millions of dollars of waste and redistribution of wealth (surely taking from one person to give to another could be characterized as immoral), and all of the sudden this pops up.
This part made me laugh. Comparing taxes to torture.
You aren't even on the same planet as I am.
We're talking about morality, not which is "more immoral" to the extent there are degrees of immorality. Taxes to pay for common goods and services like roads, military, national forests, etc. are much different from taxes that do nothing more than take money from one group of people and give it to another. That could easily be characterized as immoral or "stealing".
You're posting makes me believe you are to stupid to be involved in this dialogue. But I'll hold off on making that conclusion for now.
I just think we as a society, made a decision at some point to redistribute some wealth for the betterment of society. If you really see that as immoral then I guess that sucks for you. That redistribution was created by the rule of law, and has been upheld in courts. The CIA torture thing was against the rule of law. If you cant tell the difference I don't know what to tell you.
You're still trying to distinguish degrees of morality, or at least use it to justify you're incongruent position.
Societal decisions allowed for slavery. If that's your metric for morality, I think you're confused. Also, courts have upheld "enhanced interrogation " so that point is just wrong.
So do you agree that any income tax is redistribution? If someone pays more for a public good than another that is technically redistribution of wealth. Like what level of redistribution makes something immoral?
Chuck, it depends on what the taxes are used for. The guy with the $1 million business uses the road more than the guy who takes the bus every other week to collect his welfare check.
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redistribution of wealth that is "necessary" is still redistribution of wealth.
You're just wrong on this point. Things that are readily and indiscriminately available to the public are not "redistribution of wealth". Taking money from one person and giving it to another is.
I think you're hung up on the current progressive structure, which is not how it has to be.
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The torture thing has never really stuck with me. Like, I always assumed it was going on. The only thing that amazed me is that people were amazed.
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roads and militaries are redistribution of wealth, FWIW.
But is it immoral wealth redistribution? Everyone benefits from roads (you do not need a car, fyi). Not everyone benefits from some guy getting something.
If everyone benefits from roads (obviously indirectly), everyone benefits from giving some guy some cash (obviously indirectly).
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We need to have this discussion. Yes, that means THIS discussion--not one in which political wonks play matador with partisan issues like redistribution of wealth. Everyone needs to ask himself or herself this question: Am I OK with the techniques by agents of our government as detailed in this report, provided that the report is true and accurate? Do not be flippant in your answer; your very own humanity may be at stake.
Me? I've always sorta held the belief that there are people who do ugly work in the shadows to keep us safe. I neither need nor want to know about it. However, I am starting to reevaluate that position, now that it's out in the open. I'm starting to think that the position I previously held is simply untenable.
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Me? I've always sorta held the belief that there are people who do ugly work in the shadows to keep us safe. I neither need nor want to know about it. However, I am starting to reevaluate that position, now that it's out in the open. I'm starting to think that the position I previously held is simply untenable.
You should know about it and own it if you're in favor of it. I think every American should be forced to see videos if these torture sessions. Your tax dollars are used to rough ridin' torture people, so you should care. We can be "safe" (what does that mean?) without torturing people.
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I'm good with it. I also think it's a great idea to make people watch one of the "torture" videos - provided they also have to watch a video of people jumping from the towers and listen to the audio of people leaving tearful goodbyes on answering machines. I'm pretty confident how most Anericans will come down on the issue.
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We need to have this discussion. Yes, that means THIS discussion--not one in which political wonks play matador with partisan issues like redistribution of wealth. Everyone needs to ask himself or herself this question: Am I OK with the techniques by agents of our government as detailed in this report, provided that the report is true and accurate? Do not be flippant in your answer; your very own humanity may be at stake.
Me? I've always sorta held the belief that there are people who do ugly work in the shadows to keep us safe. I neither need nor want to know about it. However, I am starting to reevaluate that position, now that it's out in the open. I'm starting to think that the position I previously held is simply untenable.
It's rough ridin' war.
Torture is monstrous. But so is firing a missile into a town that's sole purpose is to explode and propel debris as fast as possible into ever person in range. We don't decide that's too yucky and surrender.
You know what else is monstrous, the way a lot of people on welfare treat their children. Maybe we should all watch a video of 3 kids sitting in a house filled with smoke, filth, rats, and drugs and decide whether or not we should continue fostering this lifestyle.
What's ridiculous is that only one sliver of the way we fight war is on trial, and it benefits nobody but the other side. It's pathetic partisan bullshit.
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Me? I've always sorta held the belief that there are people who do ugly work in the shadows to keep us safe. I neither need nor want to know about it. However, I am starting to reevaluate that position, now that it's out in the open. I'm starting to think that the position I previously held is simply untenable.
You should know about it and own it if you're in favor of it. I think every American should be forced to see videos if these torture sessions. Your tax dollars are used to rough ridin' torture people, so you should care. We can be "safe" (what does that mean?) without torturing people.
Maybe a partial birth abortion as well. Watch that baby come out and have its spine immediately severed and it's body discarded as medical waste. If you're for it, own it.
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You're all advocating the PETA approach to making rational decisions.
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I'm good with it. I also think it's a great idea to make people watch one of the "torture" videos - provided they also have to watch a video of people jumping from the towers and listen to the audio of people leaving tearful goodbyes on answering machines. I'm pretty confident how most Anericans will come down on the issue.
I would probably be disgusted at the perpetrators of both incidents.
Do you have any remorse that innocent people were subjected to harsh punishment at the hands of the United States? Punishment that provided next to nothing?
If I recall correctly the investigation of why 9/11 happened and who was involved was done without torture. Most investigations can be done without being a sick rough ridin' human being.
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Do you have any remorse that innocent people were subjected to harsh punishment at the hands of the United States? Punishment that provided next to nothing?
No, because I don't believe that has happened (well, I guess I'll limit this to post 9/11 - never say never).
I also don't conflate these forms of interrogation with "punishment" - they were used to get people talking.
I also don't believe the information obtained was "next to nothing." Numerous individuals with the CIA attest that valuable information was obtained through the program, sometimes corroborative, sometimes of first impression. I'm inclined to believe these men as opposed to a cherry-picked political hackjob written exclusively by Dem staffers - without even interviewing anyone (it was based solely on review of partially declassified documents) - in the waning days of Sen. Feinstein's leadership of the Senate Intelligence Committee.
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Does anyone actually know or even ask what happens to the guys we let go from Gitmo? Are they just being carted off to some 3rd world hell hole?
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Do you have any remorse that innocent people were subjected to harsh punishment at the hands of the United States? Punishment that provided next to nothing?
No, because I don't believe that has happened (well, I guess I'll limit this to post 9/11 - never say never).
I also don't conflate these forms of interrogation with "punishment" - they were used to get people talking.
I also don't believe the information obtained was "next to nothing." Numerous individuals with the CIA attest that valuable information was obtained through the program, sometimes corroborative, sometimes of first impression. I'm inclined to believe these men as opposed to a cherry-picked political hackjob written exclusively by Dem staffers - without even interviewing anyone (it was based solely on review of partially declassified documents) - in the waning days of Sen. Feinstein's leadership of the Senate Intelligence Committee.
Do you have a response to the evidence I posted? The CIA's own internal documents say that 26 of the 119 prisoners were innocent. I documented a guy that their own internal documents identified as a case of mistaken identity as tortured to death. You chose not to respond and now are denying his existence.
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We're far too busy harassing, impoverishing, abusing and murdering our own citizens in the neo-totalitarian Obama police state for your stupid crusade to imprison Dick Cheney for torturing terrorists.
What a dumb filled post. Keep on believing that there is such a difference in party...sigh. One in the same...but it keeps the division alive and well.
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redistribution of wealth that is "necessary" is still redistribution of wealth.
But yeah, torturing folks.
Paying for goods and services is not redistribution of wealth.
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How did we get on to redistribution in this thread?
Shouldn't we be talking about the recent report and the incredible job that the Dems did in trying extricate themselves from their complicity?
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Do you have any remorse that innocent people were subjected to harsh punishment at the hands of the United States? Punishment that provided next to nothing?
No, because I don't believe that has happened (well, I guess I'll limit this to post 9/11 - never say never).
I also don't conflate these forms of interrogation with "punishment" - they were used to get people talking.
I also don't believe the information obtained was "next to nothing." Numerous individuals with the CIA attest that valuable information was obtained through the program, sometimes corroborative, sometimes of first impression. I'm inclined to believe these men as opposed to a cherry-picked political hackjob written exclusively by Dem staffers - without even interviewing anyone (it was based solely on review of partially declassified documents) - in the waning days of Sen. Feinstein's leadership of the Senate Intelligence Committee.
You ready to let the local P.D. Use these methods?
Or is that somewhat different because Americans are like some super special human beings or something?
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Do you have any remorse that innocent people were subjected to harsh punishment at the hands of the United States? Punishment that provided next to nothing?
No, because I don't believe that has happened (well, I guess I'll limit this to post 9/11 - never say never).
I also don't conflate these forms of interrogation with "punishment" - they were used to get people talking.
I also don't believe the information obtained was "next to nothing." Numerous individuals with the CIA attest that valuable information was obtained through the program, sometimes corroborative, sometimes of first impression. I'm inclined to believe these men as opposed to a cherry-picked political hackjob written exclusively by Dem staffers - without even interviewing anyone (it was based solely on review of partially declassified documents) - in the waning days of Sen. Feinstein's leadership of the Senate Intelligence Committee.
Do you have a response to the evidence I posted? The CIA's own internal documents say that 26 of the 119 prisoners were innocent. I documented a guy that their own internal documents identified as a case of mistaken identity as tortured to death. You chose not to respond and now are denying his existence.
What kind of "torture" did these "innocent" people receive?
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We should waterboard darren Wilson, see if his story changes
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Do you have any remorse that innocent people were subjected to harsh punishment at the hands of the United States? Punishment that provided next to nothing?
No, because I don't believe that has happened (well, I guess I'll limit this to post 9/11 - never say never).
I also don't conflate these forms of interrogation with "punishment" - they were used to get people talking.
I also don't believe the information obtained was "next to nothing." Numerous individuals with the CIA attest that valuable information was obtained through the program, sometimes corroborative, sometimes of first impression. I'm inclined to believe these men as opposed to a cherry-picked political hackjob written exclusively by Dem staffers - without even interviewing anyone (it was based solely on review of partially declassified documents) - in the waning days of Sen. Feinstein's leadership of the Senate Intelligence Committee.
Do you have a response to the evidence I posted? The CIA's own internal documents say that 26 of the 119 prisoners were innocent. I documented a guy that their own internal documents identified as a case of mistaken identity as tortured to death. You chose not to respond and now are denying his existence.
What kind of "torture" did these "innocent" people receive?
One of them was left bound with no pants in a 36 degree room until he froze to death.
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"Froze" to "death"
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"Froze" to "death"
http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=33790.msg1274999#msg1274999
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We're far too busy harassing, impoverishing, abusing and murdering our own citizens in the neo-totalitarian Obama police state for your stupid crusade to imprison Dick Cheney for torturing terrorists.
What a dumb filled post. Keep on believing that there is such a difference in party...sigh. One in the same...but it keeps the division alive and well.
What's dumb about it? I don't see a reference to party, either.
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Cool to see the progressotards abandon their high horse and begin denigrating their own thread the moment their indefensible hypocrisy and intellectually dishonest position is pointed out.
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Cool to see the progressotards abandon their high horse and begin denigrating their own thread the moment their indefensible hypocrisy and intellectually dishonest position is pointed out.
Who abandoned their high horse? I call still see tons of morons below me trying to justify anally raping people "to get them to talk" from up here.
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Cool to see the progressotards abandon their high horse and begin denigrating their own thread the moment their indefensible hypocrisy and intellectually dishonest position is pointed out.
Who abandoned their high horse? I call still see tons of morons below me trying to justify anally raping people "to get them to talk" from up here.
You did. Maybe you feel like your strapped to the underbelly of the horse, Tijuana whore house style.
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You simply can't take incongruent moral positions regarding the intentional harm done to human beings, without exposing yourself as a partisan clown attempting to fit a bullshit dialogue.
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You simply can't take incongruent moral positions regarding the intentional harm done to human beings, without exposing yourself as a partisan clown attempting to fit a bullshit dialogue.
I don't think you know what incongruent means
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You simply can't take incongruent moral positions regarding the intentional harm done to human beings, without exposing yourself as a partisan clown attempting to fit a bullshit dialogue.
I don't think you know what incongruent means
Okay, shill
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For all the publicity the Bush administration gave Mr. Padilla, the committee revealed that the government never took his dirty bomb plot seriously. It was based on a satirical Internet article titled “How to Make an H-Bomb,” and the plot involved swinging a bucket full of uranium over one’s head for 45 minutes. One internal C.I.A. email declared that such a plot would most likely kill Mr. Padilla but “would definitely not result in a nuclear explosive device.” Another called Mr. Padilla “a petty criminal” and described the dirty bomb plot as “lore.”
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For all the publicity the Bush administration gave Mr. Padilla, the committee revealed that the government never took his dirty bomb plot seriously. It was based on a satirical Internet article titled “How to Make an H-Bomb,” and the plot involved swinging a bucket full of uranium over one’s head for 45 minutes. One internal C.I.A. email declared that such a plot would most likely kill Mr. Padilla but “would definitely not result in a nuclear explosive device.” Another called Mr. Padilla “a petty criminal” and described the dirty bomb plot as “lore.”
Everyone knows it takes at least an hour to make a nuclear explosive device
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For all the publicity the Bush administration gave Mr. Padilla, the committee revealed that the government never took his dirty bomb plot seriously. It was based on a satirical Internet article titled “How to Make an H-Bomb,” and the plot involved swinging a bucket full of uranium over one’s head for 45 minutes. One internal C.I.A. email declared that such a plot would most likely kill Mr. Padilla but “would definitely not result in a nuclear explosive device.” Another called Mr. Padilla “a petty criminal” and described the dirty bomb plot as “lore.”
When I talk about disbanding the CIA, the fact that people making decisions based on their information are complete morons is a big factor.
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Virtually ever one in government and academia are incompetent, so I agree with that metric of elimination.
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FSD is leaving body bags all over this thread.
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I'm working with someone on a project who is retired from academia and lets just say the real business world has him totally stunned and in awe.
I know return you to this tawdry attempt by prog-libs to extricate themselves from their complicity.
#nailedit
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Pretty much, except the Type-O
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I'm working with someone on a project who is retired from academia and lets just say the real business world has him totally stunned and in awe.
I know return you to this tawdry attempt by prog-libs to extricate themselves from their complicity.
You mean they aren't actually opposed to human suffering??? :surprised:
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http://news.investors.com/politics-andrew-malcolm/121214-730293-senate-torture-report-dianne-feinstein-cia.htm?p=full (http://news.investors.com/politics-andrew-malcolm/121214-730293-senate-torture-report-dianne-feinstein-cia.htm?p=full)
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Dick Cheney on the innocent man Rahman Gul being tortured to death:
I have no problem [with torturing innocent people] as long as we achieved our objective.
KSUW on the innocent man Rahman Gul being tortured to death:
What kind of "torture" did these "innocent" people receive?
When I, and others, pointed to his specific example as the most egregious of the 26 innocent men who were tortured by the CIA we received silence. Because there really is no defending this.
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Kat Kid on Obama droning uncorroborated terrorists and "collateral damage" women and children.
-silence
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KK hates that as well.
I'm still stunned though, and this is saying a lot, about how complicit the majority of prog-libs are with the current administration and all the horrors they've unleashed on the world.
It's mind boggling how deathly partisan they are . . . sad.
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Kat Kid on Obama droning uncorroborated terrorists and "collateral damage" women and children.
-silence
not accurate.
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Dick Cheney on the innocent man Rahman Gul being tortured to death:
I have no problem [with torturing innocent people] as long as we achieved our objective.
KSUW on the innocent man Rahman Gul being tortured to death:
What kind of "torture" did these "innocent" people receive?
When I, and others, pointed to his specific example as the most egregious of the 26 innocent men who were tortured by the CIA we received silence. Because there really is no defending this.
I thought I had already responded to this. Assumign that Gul was "innocent" based on a footnote of "mistaken identity" from a partially redacted and disclosed CIA report, then that sucks, but it doesn't change my position. It's an unfortunate reality of war that sometimes innocent people are killed. I guess you don't consider this a war operation, but it is. I have no doubt that far more innocent people are killed through drone strikes and other military actions (which I also support) than were killed through interrogation. It is war. The difference, of course, is that our side actually tries to avoid civilian casualties, whereas that is one of the stated objectives of our enemies.
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You should see how outraged ksuw gets when guilty parties are given traffic tickets
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http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/12/the-humane-interrogation-technique-that-works-much-better-than-torture/383698/
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It is important to remember how much Dick Cheney, Hayden, Brennan, Obama, Holder hate our founding fathers. They don't share their values at all.
George Washington when speaking about how the Continental Army should respond to rumors of British bayonetings at the Battle of Paoli:
"Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hand."
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It is important to remember the barbarism of the animals we are fighting. Just another example from today's news.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/peshawar-school-attack-taliban-burn-teacher-alive-front-pupils-behead-children-1479767 (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/peshawar-school-attack-taliban-burn-teacher-alive-front-pupils-behead-children-1479767)
Taliban terrorists that disguised themselves as soldiers and murdered over 130 people, mostly children, at a Pakistan school allegedly burned a teacher alive and made the students watch.
According to a NBC News report, which cited an unnamed military official, the terrorists stormed the Army Public school in Peshawar, in north-west Pakistan, and committed the horrific act as well as detonating a suicide bomb which killed a number of students.
"They burnt a teacher in front of the students in a classroom," said the unnamed military source to the US TV network.
"They literally set the teacher on fire with gasoline and made the kids watch."
At least six militants entered the Pakistani school wearing security uniforms, before massacring an estimated 132 people and injuring another 122.
Most of the school's 500 students have been evacuated.
The Pakistani army claims to have killed five terrorists and is conducting a search for more, while more hostages are believed to be held inside the school.
Pakistani officials have yet to verify the burning of the teacher or other reports that some of the bodies of the dead school children are being brought into the hospital headless.
According to a tweet by Omar R Quraishi, an editor at the The Express Tribune who has over 154,000 Twitter followers, "Some of the bodies brought to hospital during the Peshawar school attack have been headless: source."
Meanwhile, we agonize over pouring water on their faces, hitting them, blaring loud music at them, and otherwise "torturing" them to hopefully extract valuable intelligence.
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Meanwhile, we agonize over pouring water on their faces, hitting them, blaring loud music at them, and otherwise "torturing" them to hopefully extract valuable intelligence.
Because we're better than terrorists. Or at least we should try to be. We shouldn't act like 9 year old boys on a playground looking for revenge when determining how to treat prisoners.
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Meanwhile, we agonize over pouring water on their faces, hitting them, blaring loud music at them, and otherwise "torturing" them to hopefully extract valuable intelligence.
Because we're better than terrorists. Or at least we should try to be. We shouldn't act like 9 year old boys on a playground looking for revenge when determining how to treat prisoners.
We've been over this. The purpose of this "torture" is not about revenge, and it's not the point of my posts. I'm simply pointing out how bizarre it is to empathize with these monsters or agonize over treating them "humanely." They are "human" only in the most technical sense.
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Meanwhile, we agonize over pouring water on their faces, hitting them, blaring loud music at them, and otherwise "torturing" them to hopefully extract valuable intelligence.
Because we're better than terrorists. Or at least we should try to be. We shouldn't act like 9 year old boys on a playground looking for revenge when determining how to treat prisoners.
We've been over this. The purpose of this "torture" is not about revenge, and it's not the point of my posts. I'm simply pointing out how bizarre it is to empathize with these monsters or agonize over treating them "humanely." They are "human" only in the most technical sense.
That's just another way of calling it "revenge". And it isn't bizarre to not want your tax dollars spent on sadistic fucks torturing people, even if the people being tortured are really mean.
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Well shoot, the huge firestorm the media has attempted to create over the latest "torture" report just doesn't seem to be materializing.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/12/15/that-big-cia-torture-report-americans-just-shrugged/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/12/15/that-big-cia-torture-report-americans-just-shrugged/)
A new poll from the Pew Research Center is the first to gauge reactions to last week's big CIA report on "enhanced interrogation techniques" -- what agency critics call torture.
And the reaction is pretty muted.
The poll shows people says 51-29 percent than the CIA's methods were justified and 56-28 percent that the information gleaned helped prevent terror attacks.
The word "torture," it should be noted, isn't mentioned in the poll, but it has been associated with much of the coverage of the issue. And the numbers align nicely with polls on the use of torture, which shows that relatively few Americans are concerned about it -- especially when you bring the prospect of combating terrorism into the mix.
That lack of real concern about what the CIA was doing is also reflected in the amount of interest in the story. While newspapers and broadcast news across the country devoted a huge amount of coverage to the Senate intelligence committee report last week, just 23 percent of Americans say they are following the story "very closely," while 50 percent are following it "not too closely" or "not at all." That ranks it behind the Ferguson/Eric Garner protests and stories about the U.S. economy.
And it's not just that people who aren't concerned about torture aren't tuning in. Those who have followed the story the most, in fact, approve of the program 59-34 percent.
Even Democrats are pretty split on the justification for the program. While 37 percent say it was justified, 46 percent say it wasn't. Liberal Democrats disapprove 65-25 percent, but moderate and conservative Democrats approve 48-32 percent.
Given the images that were conjured by the report -- "rectal feeding," etc. -- that's not much of a reaction. Indeed, this is not the kind of public outcry that demands big changes to how the CIA conducts business.
And Democrats who pushed for the release of the report in hopes of changing how the CIA does business have to be frustrated.
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Meanwhile, we agonize over pouring water on their faces, hitting them, blaring loud music at them, and otherwise "torturing" them to hopefully extract valuable intelligence.
Because we're better than terrorists. Or at least we should try to be. We shouldn't act like 9 year old boys on a playground looking for revenge when determining how to treat prisoners.
We've been over this. The purpose of this "torture" is not about revenge, and it's not the point of my posts. I'm simply pointing out how bizarre it is to empathize with these monsters or agonize over treating them "humanely." They are "human" only in the most technical sense.
That's just another way of calling it "revenge".
No, it isn't. You really think the people at the CIA were motivated by "revenge?" They're in the business of intelligence. That's what this was about. An argument can be made that these methods did not produce good intel (belied by numerous CIA interviews) or that less extreme methods would have produced the same or better intel (conjecture), but the argument that this was motivated by revenge is pretty silly.
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Well shoot
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It is pretty disappointing that the majority of Americans are awful people.
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It is pretty disappointing that the majority of Americans are awful people.
It is entertaining that ksuw had posts literally 2 minutes apart saying "OMG Americans are so stupid!" "look, Americans love torture, I'm right! "
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Kat Kid on Obama droning uncorroborated terrorists and "collateral damage" women and children.
-silence
not accurate.
Quite accurate
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Meanwhile, we agonize over pouring water on their faces, hitting them, blaring loud music at them, and otherwise "torturing" them to hopefully extract valuable intelligence.
Because we're better than terrorists. Or at least we should try to be. We shouldn't act like 9 year old boys on a playground looking for revenge when determining how to treat prisoners.
We've been over this. The purpose of this "torture" is not about revenge, and it's not the point of my posts. I'm simply pointing out how bizarre it is to empathize with these monsters or agonize over treating them "humanely." They are "human" only in the most technical sense.
That's just another way of calling it "revenge".
No, it isn't. You really think the people at the CIA were motivated by "revenge?" They're in the business of intelligence. That's what this was about. An argument can be made that these methods did not produce good intel (belied by numerous CIA interviews) or that less extreme methods would have produced the same or better intel (conjecture), but the argument that this was motivated by revenge is pretty silly.
The CIA is just as mumped up as any government agency. I'm sure many in the CIA were motivated for revenge and I'm damn sure the politicians who gave them the go-ahead were motivated by revenge.
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I think the majority of people still have the ability to put themselves in a theoretical position in which they themselves would 'torture' another person to save someone they care about.
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So the #prolapse thing was about force feeding people on hunger strike. I thought that ramming a tube up someone's ass to torture was a little too perverted, even for the cia.
The second dumbest thing about all of this is the great lengths the cia went to redefine the word torture. Guess what, we've been torturing our enemies since day one and will continue to do it until they're all dead.
The first dumbest thing is leftists being okay with killing someone by hell fire missile, but not okay with water boarding because Obama not cheney.
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I think the majority of people still have the ability to put themselves in a theoretical position in which they themselves would 'torture' another person to save someone they care about.
I think a majority of people would also murder a unicorn to save someone they care about.
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It is pretty disappointing that the majority of Americans are awful people.
It is entertaining that ksuw had posts literally 2 minutes apart saying "OMG Americans are so stupid!" "look, Americans love torture, I'm right! "
Good point. :thumbs:
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I think the majority of people still have the ability to put themselves in a theoretical position in which they themselves would 'torture' another person to save someone they care about.
That seems like a terrible way to determine which government policy to promote.
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I think the majority of people still have the ability to put themselves in a theoretical position in which they themselves would 'torture' another person to save someone they care about.
That seems like a terrible way to determine which government policy to promote.
This was in reference to the majority of Americans supporting enhanced interrogation and the hypocrisy of some. They would rush use the same techniques to save someone they personally care for, but vilify those that use it to save people they don't even know.
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It is pretty disappointing that the majority of Americans are awful people.
The majority of humans are awful people.
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So the #prolapse thing was about force feeding people on hunger strike. I thought that ramming a tube up someone's ass to torture was a little too perverted, even for the cia.
The second dumbest thing about all of this is the great lengths the cia went to redefine the word torture. Guess what, we've been torturing our enemies since day one and will continue to do it until they're all dead.
The first dumbest thing is leftists being okay with killing someone by hell fire missile, but not okay with water boarding because Obama not cheney.
I am interested to learn how force feeding someone makes their bad person fall out of itself. I mean surely they didn't try force feeding them through their bad person right?
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I think the majority of people still have the ability to put themselves in a theoretical position in which they themselves would 'torture' another person to save someone they care about.
I think a majority of people would also murder a unicorn to save someone they care about.
I definitely would.
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So the #prolapse thing was about force feeding people on hunger strike. I thought that ramming a tube up someone's ass to torture was a little too perverted, even for the cia.
The second dumbest thing about all of this is the great lengths the cia went to redefine the word torture. Guess what, we've been torturing our enemies since day one and will continue to do it until they're all dead.
The first dumbest thing is leftists being okay with killing someone by hell fire missile, but not okay with water boarding because Obama not cheney.
I am interested to learn how force feeding someone makes their bad person fall out of itself. I mean surely they didn't try force feeding them through their bad person right?
How are you going to water board someone with a tube in the mouth? How do you IV someone if you are restricting blood flow? Ass it is!
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simple mix-up in the administration of bee pollen
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I think the majority of people still have the ability to put themselves in a theoretical position in which they themselves would 'torture' another person to save someone they care about.
I think a majority of people would also murder a unicorn to save someone they care about.
I definitely would.
Yes, pretty easy choice.
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I think the majority of people still have the ability to put themselves in a theoretical position in which they themselves would 'torture' another person to save someone they care about.
That seems like a terrible way to determine which government policy to promote.
This was in reference to the majority of Americans supporting enhanced interrogation and the hypocrisy of some. They would rush use the same techniques to save someone they personally care for, but vilify those that use it to save people they don't even know.
That's not hypocritical at all.
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I think the majority of people still have the ability to put themselves in a theoretical position in which they themselves would 'torture' another person to save someone they care about.
That seems like a terrible way to determine which government policy to promote.
This was in reference to the majority of Americans supporting enhanced interrogation and the hypocrisy of some. They would rush use the same techniques to save someone they personally care for, but vilify those that use it to save people they don't even know.
That's not hypocritical at all.
OK
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If somebody I loved associated themselves with terrorists, I wouldn't want them water boarded, either.
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If somebody I loved associated themselves with terrorists, I wouldn't want them water boarded, either.
:facepalm:
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It is pretty disappointing that the majority of Americans are awful people.
The majority of humans are awful people.
Ergo, Obama's reelection
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26 people held in error
Mr. Bashmilah has told them of being tortured in Jordan before he was handed over to the C.I.A., which at times kept him shackled alone in freezing-cold cells in Afghanistan, subjected to loud music 24 hours a day. He attempted suicide at least three times, once by saving pills and swallowing them all at once; once by slashing his wrists; and once by trying to hang himself. Another time he cut himself and used his own blood to write “this is unjust” on the wall.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/13/us/politics/amid-details-on-torture-data-on-26-held-in-error-.html
:frown:
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Should have just blown them up instead
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using 9/11 as an excuse to torture brown people 13 years later is pretty LOL
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So, can someone document the reform that has taken place since these torture cases?
Any significant evidence that the current administration has reigned in the CIA (or other agencies)?
not as far as I know, because the CIA has everyone by the balls and really needs to be disbanded.
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using 9/11 as an excuse to torture brown people 13 years later is pretty LOL
The 9/11 AUMF is also the legal rationale we're using to fight a war in Syria and Iraq too! 9/11 is really the gift that keeps on giving to the US executive branch.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmNUi0itl-8#t=69 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmNUi0itl-8#t=69)
interview with one of the interrogation contractors. there is a lot of interesting stuff in here. 25 minutes long.
http://www.dancarlin.com/common-sense-home-landing-page/ (http://www.dancarlin.com/common-sense-home-landing-page/)
show 285 - torturing our values. this guy's contextual understanding and objectivity is fantastic. i want every single american to listen to the first 40 minutes of this podcast. i'm certain that all of you, from libliblibliblibliblib to sonofdaxjones, will find this worthwhile. please listen.
@8manpick @Dlew12
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Watched the video, eff that guy. He's just out for revenge. He could have took a stand against torture and chose not to.
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Watched the video, eff that guy. He's just out for revenge. He could have took a stand against torture and chose not to.
he seems totally comfortable with having acted out of revenge. it's scary to think that someone hired him knowing he was capable of that degree of rationalization.
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Yeah. Dan crushed it as usual. Love his discussion on idealism vs. realism.
And that Vice interview is pretty good.
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Well shoot, the huge firestorm the media has attempted to create over the latest "torture" report just doesn't seem to be materializing.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/12/15/that-big-cia-torture-report-americans-just-shrugged/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/12/15/that-big-cia-torture-report-americans-just-shrugged/)
A new poll from the Pew Research Center is the first to gauge reactions to last week's big CIA report on "enhanced interrogation techniques" -- what agency critics call torture.
And the reaction is pretty muted.
The poll shows people says 51-29 percent than the CIA's methods were justified and 56-28 percent that the information gleaned helped prevent terror attacks.
The word "torture," it should be noted, isn't mentioned in the poll, but it has been associated with much of the coverage of the issue. And the numbers align nicely with polls on the use of torture, which shows that relatively few Americans are concerned about it -- especially when you bring the prospect of combating terrorism into the mix.
That lack of real concern about what the CIA was doing is also reflected in the amount of interest in the story. While newspapers and broadcast news across the country devoted a huge amount of coverage to the Senate intelligence committee report last week, just 23 percent of Americans say they are following the story "very closely," while 50 percent are following it "not too closely" or "not at all." That ranks it behind the Ferguson/Eric Garner protests and stories about the U.S. economy.
And it's not just that people who aren't concerned about torture aren't tuning in. Those who have followed the story the most, in fact, approve of the program 59-34 percent.
Even Democrats are pretty split on the justification for the program. While 37 percent say it was justified, 46 percent say it wasn't. Liberal Democrats disapprove 65-25 percent, but moderate and conservative Democrats approve 48-32 percent.
Given the images that were conjured by the report -- "rectal feeding," etc. -- that's not much of a reaction. Indeed, this is not the kind of public outcry that demands big changes to how the CIA conducts business.
And Democrats who pushed for the release of the report in hopes of changing how the CIA does business have to be frustrated.
I think that pool mostly reflects how unsurprised most Americans were by the torture report. I mean after 9/11 and the vigor that followed anyone with brains assumed that was probably going on.
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It is pretty disappointing that the majority of Americans are awful people.
The majority of humans are awful people.
Naw
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It is pretty disappointing that the majority of Americans are awful people.
The majority of humans are awful people.
Naw
Of course they are. They just lie to themselves and others about it.
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It is pretty disappointing that the majority of Americans are awful people.
The majority of humans are awful people.
Naw
Of course they are. They just lie to themselves and others about it.
Most people are pretty good.
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It is pretty disappointing that the majority of Americans are awful people.
The majority of humans are awful people.
Naw
Of course they are. They just lie to themselves and others about it.
Most people are pretty good.
yeah but if you scare them they'll behave like any other animal.
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From http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=31565.125
The president has a list of people he wants to kill and dispatches remote control robots to kill them.
The CIA tortured tons of people, killed lots of people, spied on Congress when they did an investigative report and now refuses to allow the release of the report.
Most commodities are priced by cartels.
We live in an oligarchy.
:Wha:
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(https://sullydish.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/12-20-14.jpg?w=580&h=293)
Let's hear it for atheists! :thumbs:
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(https://sullydish.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/12-20-14.jpg?w=580&h=293)
Let's hear it for atheists! :thumbs:
We already knew we were huge studs, but thanks. So much for relativistic morality!
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Those darn Maddow bloggers polling their friends again. :Wha:
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Those darn Maddow bloggers polling their friends again. :Wha:
that poll was done by the washington post and abc.
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No religion is not defined very well. White Catholic kind of excludes a decent part of the population.
Gonna win 'em all!
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oh wow, a whole 1,000 people were asked their opinion on the matter. let's give it up for all 7 out of 13 athiests who thought torture was bad! good post Rusty/8man/Bubs.
:flush:
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They all look like a set of male genitals n balls. Except the one on the right. #stumpy
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oh wow, a whole 1,000 people were asked their opinion on the matter. let's give it up for all 7 out of 13 athiests who thought torture was bad! good post Rusty/8man/Bubs.
:flush:
Not 100% sure you understand sampling.
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The "no religion" crowd sees a moral equivalency between intentionally slaughtering civilians in the most barbaric ways imaginable and harshly interrogating suspected terrorists to prevent future attacks? Well that's just shocking.
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The "no religion" crowd sees a moral equivalency between intentionally slaughtering civilians in the most barbaric ways imaginable and harshly interrogating suspected terrorists to prevent future attacks? Well that's just shocking.
I don't think that was the poll question. But my answer would be they aren't morally equivalent.
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The "no religion" crowd sees a moral equivalency between intentionally slaughtering civilians in the most barbaric ways imaginable and harshly interrogating suspected terrorists to prevent future attacks? Well that's just shocking.
I don't think that was the poll question. But my answer would be they aren't morally equivalent.
But that's what it really boils down to in most people's minds.
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(https://sullydish.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/12-20-14.jpg?w=580&h=293)
Let's hear it for atheists! :thumbs:
We already knew we were huge studs, but thanks. So much for relativistic morality!
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oh wow, a whole 1,000 people were asked their opinion on the matter. let's give it up for all 7 out of 13 athiests who thought torture was bad! good post Rusty/8man/Bubs.
:flush:
Not 100% sure you understand sampling.
4 people in this thread think that poll is a good and only 2 say it's bad.
looks like the numbers are in folks, and 2/3 of americans say the poll is good!
:flush:
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take a chill pill dlew, sheesh
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Idk why the god-fearing torture lover Dlew lumped me in with rusty and 8man. All I did was help dougie to understand.
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The "no religion" crowd sees a moral equivalency between intentionally slaughtering civilians in the most barbaric ways imaginable and harshly interrogating suspected terrorists to prevent future attacks? Well that's just shocking.
I don't think that was the poll question. But my answer would be they aren't morally equivalent.
But that's what it really boils down to in most people's minds.
Maybe. It certainly is your moral calculus. I don't think about it that way and we come to different conclusions so that makes sense to me.
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oh wow, a whole 1,000 people were asked their opinion on the matter. let's give it up for all 7 out of 13 athiests who thought torture was bad! good post Rusty/8man/Bubs.
:flush:
Not 100% sure you understand sampling.
4 people in this thread think that poll is a good and only 2 say it's bad.
looks like the numbers are in folks, and 2/3 of americans say the poll is good!
:flush:
Are you one of those people that thinks that if you aren't in a random sample you can add/subtract a percentage point on the result to correct for your opinion?
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I can't tell if dlew is bbs'ing here or not
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oh wow, a whole 1,000 people were asked their opinion on the matter. let's give it up for all 7 out of 13 athiests who thought torture was bad! good post Rusty/8man/Bubs.
:flush:
Not 100% sure you understand sampling.
4 people in this thread think that poll is a good and only 2 say it's bad.
looks like the numbers are in folks, and 2/3 of americans say the poll is good!
:flush:
Are you one of those people that thinks that if you aren't in a random sample you can add/subtract a percentage point on the result to correct for your opinion?
1000 people just seems really low. Maybe it's not for these types of things.
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And I'm just bitter because I was hoping that religious folks would be rooting for the right things.
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A sample size of ~2500 is typical for national polls in the US and that has a margin of error of around 2.5%. I didn't look at the methodology or the sampling of the poll, but a sample of 1000 is plenty for almost anything.
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And I'm just bitter because I was hoping that religious folks would be rooting for the right things.
You owe me an apology for grouping me with 8man and cRusty.
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sorry bubs. that was a low blow and completely unfounded.
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The same atheists agreed droning was justified at a 71% clip.
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And I'm just bitter because I was hoping that religious folks would be rooting for the right things.
The sacrefice of a few to save the many is the right thing, dlew. It is how nature works.
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And I'm just bitter because I was hoping that religious folks would be rooting for the right things.
Pretty naive considering the religious opinion of most "political" issues
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And I'm just bitter because I was hoping that religious folks would be rooting for the right things.
The sacrefice of a few to save the many is the right thing, dlew. It is how nature works.
And God sent his only begotten alleged terrorists to be tortured to death for our sins
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And I'm just bitter because I was hoping that religious folks would be rooting for the right things.
The sacrefice of a few to save the many is the right thing, dlew. It is how nature works.
And God sent his only begotten alleged terrorists to be tortured to death for our sins
It has nothing to do with religion.
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:lol:
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The "no religion" crowd sees a moral equivalency between intentionally slaughtering civilians in the most barbaric ways imaginable and harshly interrogating suspected terrorists to prevent future attacks? Well that's just shocking.
I don't think they see it that way at all. I'm in the "religious" crowd that thinks torture is wrong, though, so I can't speak for them. The way I see it, there will always be awful people in the world, and as a religious person, I should forgive them and move on with my life. Two wrongs don't make a right, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, etc. It's ok for others to do the wrong thing, but it's not ok for me to do that, and I'd rather my government not do the wrong thing, either.
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The "no religion" crowd sees a moral equivalency between intentionally slaughtering civilians in the most barbaric ways imaginable and harshly interrogating suspected terrorists to prevent future attacks? Well that's just shocking.
I don't think they see it that way at all. I'm in the "religious" crowd that thinks torture is wrong, though, so I can't speak for them. The way I see it, there will always be awful people in the world, and as a religious person, I should forgive them and move on with my life. Two wrongs don't make a right, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, etc. It's ok for others to do the wrong thing, but it's not ok for me to do that, and I'd rather my government not do the wrong thing, either.
Government, in this day and age, exists solely as a medium for people to do wrong unto others.