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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Jerome Tang Coaches Kansas State Basketball => Topic started by: Kat Kid on September 25, 2014, 08:22:27 AM
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The problem I have with sys' explanation: "great shooters will occasionally shoot 1-15, guys great at drawing fouls will occasionally not get calls. that doesn't negate the value of either skill." is of course that I would nearly every time take a great shooter over a guy that is great at getting calls. There is a pretty fundamental difference between being a good shooter and being good at getting to the free throw line because the shooters value is innate and not dependent on other circumstances. Of course teams could double team the player, deny him the ball etc. but that would not take away the great shooters innate ability to shoot, it just modifies the environment that he has to shoot in. A player that relies as much as Hoskins does at getting to the line has much more direct and varying influences on his game, players playing solid D, teams giving him jump shots instead of letting him drive the lane, denying him the ball, doubling down or most importantly the referees not calling fouls. A referee has almost no ability to deny a great shooter his skill, but referees can have drastic effects on a player like Hoskins.
I decided to look at Hoskins free throw attempts on a home/road split:
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi175.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw133%2Fkatkid1%2Fhoskinsroadattempts.jpg%3Ft%3D1178646562&hash=33babd1da53418d1274c7345f5638321740d5336)
Max 13
Min 0
Avg 5.75
Median 6
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi175.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw133%2Fkatkid1%2Fhoskinshomeattempts.jpg%3Ft%3D1178645953&hash=41307f67d2f6ef22678a3295a80fac6f5d58b205)
Max 13
Min 2
Average 7.47
Median 7
As one might expect, on the road Hoskins gets fewer calls. Couple that with the other players I mentioned before who were similar to Hoskins (Zeno and Augustin) and it worries me a little more. Both those players clearly have significantly better shooting range. Both Zeno and Augustin shot around 44% from 3 (Zeno had half as many attempts as Hoskins, but one more make) so while I don't have the play-by-play data available for Hoskins I will assume they are better shots. This makes Hoskins even weirder in my book. I have a bias against Hoskins because I perceive him as one-dimensional, but I'm not sure if all this means he will collapse next year or that he is just a really unique player.
Thoughts?
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my God :lol:
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what is this sorcery
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what is this sorcery
should've started from the bottom on "Unread" posts :lol:
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:lol:
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Man, the days before free throw rate and the influence of Frank.
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Let me first answer Kat Kid's question...yes, I would keep Walker over any of those guys you mentioned. I know ratings aren't everything, but are there any other players in the conference (assuming Durant leaves) that were rated higher coming out of HS than either Walker or Beasley? We saw only a few glimpses of Walker this year. If his knee rehab comes out well (admittedly, after ACL surgery, it usually takes a year or more to get the same spring back), the full offseason, with lots of time working on his shot, and a better understanding of the game/system, I expect Walker could be vastly improved by the conference season. Beasley, hey, didn't NBAdraft have him as the #4 rated player behind Oden, Durrant, and Brandon Wright? We potentially have 2 lottery picks on our team next year. Anyone else have that?? (please, don't throw out the ku collection of nearly 1st day NBA draft picks).
I like your enthusiasm, but all of the guys I mentioned proved themselves over at least an entire season in the Big 12.
Here are the numbers we have on Walker. They may not be representative, they may not be fair, he may get better and there are an infinite amount of variables etc., but let's see what we're really saying here.
Walker in 5 games:
26-65 FG 40% 0-9 3pt 0% 16-24 FT 67% 27 REB (8 OFF) 4.5 RPG 5 A 11 TO 4 STL 11 PPG
Italics: indicate question marks
Underlines: indicate reassuring stats
Green means better than Billy Red means worse
Here are the players I listed off and here are their stats:
Abrams (soph)? 175-441 FG 40% 120-284 3pt 42% 73-79 FT 92% 2.5 RPG 52 A 28 TO 15.5 PPG
Augustin (freshman)? 154-343 FG 45% 45-102 3pt 44% 150-179 FT 84% 2.8 RPG 233 A 115 TO 14.4 PPG
Chalmers (soph)? 156-310 FG 50% 59-143 3pt 41% 82-105 FT 78% 3.1 RPG 114 A 80 TO 12.6 PPG
Rush (soph)? 173-398 FG 43% 73-171 3pt 43% 77-113 FT 68% 5.6 RPG 70 A 70 TO 13.8 PPG
Hannah (freshman)? 161-356 FG 45% 59-151 3pt 39% 82-104 FT 79% 3.5 RPG 137 A 98 TO 15.4 PPG
Zeno (junior)? 186-376 FG 50% 14-32 3pt 43% 178-225 FT 79% 5.3 RPG 109 A 91 TO 16.6 PPG
Jerrells (sophmore)? 157-356 FG 44% 57-156 3pt 36.5% [/color]94-139 FT 67% 4.7 RPG 118 A 85 TO 15.0 PPG
Here is what we know about Bill Walker: He is rated very highly. He has the potential to be terrific. He has blown out both ACLs. He played 5 games this past year. In those 5 games he showed himself to be an average shooter, a below average rebounder, an average free throw shooter, a below average a/to ratio and a lower ppg than every other player I compared him against. I'm not saying that is the player he will be next year. I'm not saying he won't prove himself to be better than ALL of the players listed, I'm just saying we should temper our expectations against the returns we already have and adjust them accordingly.
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I'm not saying I'd rather have Martin Zeno than Billy Walker. But I'm not quite not saying that either.
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Also- it's a pretty loud building.
I think when we start building some tradition in there it will change alot of how KSU fans feel about the place.
:doom:
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How long has that stuff been here? I would have thought there would be more fanfare the way people had raging bones about it from time to time.
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we got it a few weeks ago, saul and chings had to mod stuff and then also takes us a long time to decide to do anything
it's only been up since today
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It's hard to tell around here sometimes. Like when SD maybe had a kid that one time.
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Sys was a very different poster.
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Sys was a very different poster.
frank leaving has really scarred his soul
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Sys was a very different poster.
frank leaving has really scarred his soul
He mostly died. We're getting him back though.
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It's hard to tell around here sometimes. Like when SD maybe had a kid that one time.
Barely a day goes by when I don't think about this. Really awkward. Like a poorly written sitcom that comes back from hiatus and they have added a new character but they try to make it seem like the new character was there all along. I'd give an example, but no sitcom has actually ever been that bad.
Gonna win 'em all!
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I have a kid. He's a complete stud.
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lol
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I have a kid. He's 11 now and is a complete stud.
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:lol:
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I would have thought there would be more fanfare the way people had raging bones about it from time to time.
right?
Sys was a very different poster.
like the type of poster he now detests?
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Links to the raging bones over ksufans you dorks
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Links to the raging bones over ksufans you dorks
too many to post
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Links to the raging bones over ksufans you dorks
Yeah, you know there are many, don't be contrariancat about that, it ruins your cred for other contrainianess
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If you want to find any rageboner posts, they might accompany posts in which people talk of the superority of ksufans to goEMAW. And those posts normally precede posts in which Rick Daris makes an analogy to SNL cast turnover.
On a related note, I finally thought of something to put in the "typical posts by" thread for Rick Daris.
On another related note, reading through the archives does make it appear to me that ksufans had much more of a rebel flavor.
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If you want to find any rageboner posts, they might accompany posts in which people talk of the superority of ksufans to goEMAW. And those posts normally precede posts in which Rick Daris makes an analogy to SNL cast turnover.
On a related note, I finally thought of something to put in the "typical posts by" thread for Rick Daris.
On another related note, reading through the archives does make it appear to me that ksufans had much more of a rebel flavor.
you know what is funny is that yesterday i was going through the ksufans combofanning board and i had made a snl cast turnover post and thought to myself damn i've had that take for a long time. huh, go figure. then i clicked on other threads.
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If you want to find any rageboner posts, they might accompany posts in which people talk of the superority of ksufans to goEMAW. And those posts normally precede posts in which Rick Daris makes an analogy to SNL cast turnover.
On a related note, I finally thought of something to put in the "typical posts by" thread for Rick Daris.
On another related note, reading through the archives does make it appear to me that ksufans had much more of a rebel flavor.
you know what is funny is that yesterday i was going through the ksufans combofanning board and i had made a snl cast turnover post and thought to myself damn i've had that take for a long time. huh, go figure. then i clicked on other threads.
Well, it is a good analogy.
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Links to the raging bones over ksufans you dorks
http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=33216.msg1218394#msg1218394
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On another related note, reading through the archives does make it appear to me that ksufans had much more of a rebel flavor.
I was a way better poster back then. Reading back through has been a treat. I called Vic Koenig's wife the c word. I still need to find my rant on snyder's hiring.
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i don't feel like a different poster.
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Frank gaining momentum in the SEC while oscar's team struggles this year will return this board to its glory days