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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: sonofdaxjones on January 03, 2011, 11:43:31 PM

Title: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 03, 2011, 11:43:31 PM
who was it that mentioned in another thread that I can't find now, that we had a series of 4 or 5 practices, of which almost 1 entire practice was spent working on . . . defending the backdoor cut??

Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: Stevesie60 on January 03, 2011, 11:54:23 PM
who was it that mentioned in another thread that I can't find now, that we had a series of 4 or 5 practices, of which almost 1 entire practice was spent working on . . . defending the backdoor cut??



Yeah, I said that sarcastically.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: WillieWatanabe on January 04, 2011, 12:12:43 AM
lol
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: FHSU92 on January 04, 2011, 12:27:43 AM
Frank will open the playbook up during conf play, just playing vanilla o & d now.  These games don't mean much.
 :powerespect:
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2011, 06:10:21 AM
who was it that mentioned in another thread that I can't find now, that we had a series of 4 or 5 practices, of which almost 1 entire practice was spent working on . . . defending the backdoor cut??



Yeah, I said that sarcastically.

LIAR!!
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: steve dave on January 04, 2011, 07:21:31 AM
lol at backdoor-cut-tards
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: ednksu on January 04, 2011, 07:37:03 AM
imagine letting every other big 12 team design an offense exclusively around backdoor cuts only to find out the cats know how to defend it and just want you to think they cant. 
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2011, 07:54:12 AM
LOL at people who don't recognize the fact that in the 3 losses this year K-State gave up multiple easy buckets on the  most basic offensive play in basketball.

But hey, giving up numerous easy buckets on the most basic play in the game are all part of the JYC philosophy.  Nothing says JYC like 10 easy points for the other team in a nip-tuck ball game.

Nothing better than defending the perimeter hard . . . but wait a simple baseline cut results in yet another layup, oh well.






Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kso_FAN on January 04, 2011, 08:37:38 AM
LOL at people who don't recognize the fact that in the 3 losses this year K-State gave up multiple easy buckets on the  most basic offensive play in basketball.

But hey, giving up numerous easy buckets on the most basic play in the game are all part of the JYC philosophy.  Nothing says JYC like 10 easy points for the other team in a nip-tuck ball game.

Nothing better than defending the perimeter hard . . . but wait a simple baseline cut results in yet another layup, oh well.








I'll give you Duke, but UNLV and Florida were our worst two offensive games of the year, and it really isn't even close.  Poor defense contributed on backdoor cuts and the like, but if you don't make shots, don't get oboards, don't get to the FT line, and turn the ball over a lot it doesn't matter. 
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 04, 2011, 08:55:44 AM
LOL at people who don't recognize the fact that in the 3 losses this year K-State gave up multiple easy buckets on the  most basic offensive play in basketball.

But hey, giving up numerous easy buckets on the most basic play in the game are all part of the JYC philosophy.  Nothing says JYC like 10 easy points for the other team in a nip-tuck ball game.

Nothing better than defending the perimeter hard . . . but wait a simple baseline cut results in yet another layup, oh well.








I'll give you Duke, but UNLV and Florida were our worst two offensive games of the year, and it really isn't even close.  Poor defense contributed on backdoor cuts and the like, but if you don't make shots, don't get oboards, don't get to the FT line, and turn the ball over a lot it doesn't matter. 

Give it up, I've tried.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: Poster formerly known as jthutch on January 04, 2011, 08:59:53 AM
LOL at people who don't recognize the fact that in the 3 losses this year K-State gave up multiple easy buckets on the  most basic offensive play in basketball.

But hey, giving up numerous easy buckets on the most basic play in the game are all part of the JYC philosophy.  Nothing says JYC like 10 easy points for the other team in a nip-tuck ball game.

Nothing better than defending the perimeter hard . . . but wait a simple baseline cut results in yet another layup, oh well.








I'll give you Duke, but UNLV and Florida were our worst two offensive games of the year, and it really isn't even close.  Poor defense contributed on backdoor cuts and the like, but if you don't make shots, don't get oboards, don't get to the FT line, and turn the ball over a lot it doesn't matter. 

Give it up, I've tried.
You sucked at it though _Fan is much better at it than you. 
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2011, 10:13:47 AM
You all know I am right on this . . . you're all just too chickenshit to admit it.

Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: chum1 on January 04, 2011, 10:29:06 AM
well, if your offense sucks against most of the quality opponents you play, getting better on defense might be a good idea.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: Poster formerly known as jthutch on January 04, 2011, 10:30:20 AM
Mostly I agree that the back door cuts cost us the UNLV game.  But more due to the timing and killing/changing the momentum of the game for the K@s.  But they do infuriate me when I see it happen, as it does Frank.  But I also realize, its going to happen in this style of defense.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: pissclams on January 04, 2011, 10:33:43 AM
i love the new breed of back door cut defenders

the powermc's have really dug themselves a good trench here to fight out of.
free throw problems?  what free throw problems!!?
back door cut problems?  what back door cut problems!!@
substitution pattern problems?  what are you talking about???
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kso_FAN on January 04, 2011, 11:00:27 AM
The single most significant factor in all 3 of our losses was terrible 3 point shooting. 

TO% in two of the three was terrible.

FT Rate and Oboarding in two of the three was below average as well.

Defensively, not forcing TOs and poor poor FG-% defense were significant, so I agree with the point on backdoor cuts, but that is a symptom of overall defensive problems.   Against Duke we were pretty terrible defensively.  Against Florida we were bad the last 30 minutes.  UNLV we played good enough on defense to win outside of a small stretch.  But in all three we were bad on offense for long stretches, particularly in making jump shots. 
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: mcmwcat on January 04, 2011, 11:07:09 AM
http://kenpom.com/gameplan.php?team=Kansas%20St.&s=OE
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2011, 11:16:55 AM
CAC offensive play only adds to the increased need of playing good defense and not giving the other team easy buckets.

JYC style of play and repeatedly giving up easy baskets while shooting like cac on the offensive end do not go together.

But hey, by the sounds of it, all we need to do is shoot better and everything else will take care of itself, 8-10 easy points given up against quality teams at critical points in games will simply be made up for by shooting lights out, and you know how this team has shown its capable of shooting lights out against good teams this year. 
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kso_FAN on January 04, 2011, 11:35:11 AM
CAC offensive play only adds to the increased need of playing good defense and not giving the other team easy buckets.

JYC style of play and repeatedly giving up easy baskets while shooting like cac on the offensive end do not go together.

But hey, by the sounds of it, all we need to do is shoot better and everything else will take care of itself, 8-10 easy points given up against quality teams at critical points in games will simply be made up for by shooting lights out, and you know how this team has shown its capable of shooting lights out against good teams this year. 

Yep, that is exactly what I said.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: steve dave on January 04, 2011, 11:38:43 AM
sad

























really
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: 0.42 on January 04, 2011, 11:40:24 AM
 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 04, 2011, 11:45:22 AM
well, if your offense sucks against most of the quality opponents you play, getting better on defense might be a good idea.

We held Florida and UNLV to 57 and 63 points, respectively. Expecting the D to be significantly better than that is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) at best.

If you're bound and determined to bitch about our D, focus on our guards getting destroyed off the dribble. That's our real problem defensively.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: PurpleSleezyE on January 04, 2011, 11:53:44 AM
^^^^What Kougs said!
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: Ghost of Stan Parrish on January 04, 2011, 12:01:22 PM
Lordy, do you think we can even win a game in the conference this year?   I'm on pins and needles.  :ohno:
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kso_FAN on January 04, 2011, 12:04:15 PM
well, if your offense sucks against most of the quality opponents you play, getting better on defense might be a good idea.

We held Florida and UNLV to 57 and 63 points, respectively. Expecting the D to be significantly better than that is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) at best.

If you're bound and determined to bitch about our D, focus on our guards getting destroyed off the dribble. That's our real problem defensively.

I will say Florida's 57 points is a bit misleading b/c it was a 59 possession game.  After the first 10 minutes or so our defense was pretty bad, and much of the 2nd half was pretty terrible.  Only forcing them into a billion turnovers (most early) made our defensive numbers remotely good.

Again, losses, especially by the margins we lost Florida and Duke, usually mean you played bad on offense AND defense, and we did.  Both teams had good shooting nights, particularly Florida, one of their best shooting games of the season.  Even though Duke's offensive numbers were pretty good, we actually held them to one of their worst offensive games of the season, but their offensive efficiency for the year is ridiculously good.  Then if you look at UNLV, we held them to one of their worst offensive games of the season as well.

In all 3 we were terrible (not just bad) from the 3 point line shooting 18%, 16%, and 25% in those three games from 3 respectively.  When we shoot that bad, its going to be tough to win, no matter how good our defense is, and in two of those games (Duke and UNLV) we held them to one of their worst offensive games of the season.  At some point your offense has to come around, and shooting 40% like we did vs UNLV and 27% like FL won't get it done.  

As with any season, we've had a couple games vs good teams where we shot poorly, but defense carried us, VT and WSU being good examples.  However, we generated enough shots and hit enough 3s (7 in both, in spite of shooting around 30%) to win.  

To me as long as we play solid defense (keep good teams in the lower 40% range and don't give up Oboards) and do a couple of the things that we've proven we need to do offensively (FT rate and OR%) we've still got to shoot around 30% from 3 and hit minimum 6-7 from there to win.  That's the profile of this team.  Then there will be outliers; games we shoot great and blow good teams out (Gonzaga) or games where we don't shoot, but play exceptional defense to beat good teams (Zaga and WSU).  Duke I'd say we got outclassed and we have to play above our average to win, and the other two losses we simply had too many breakdowns on both sides of the ball (especially FL, UNLV is an exception to me b/c we didn't have Pullen/Kelly) to beat good teams.  That's basketball, and specifically that's the footprint of this team.  Its not that complicated and I will stick to what I've always said since I've been BBSing about FB/BB; losses are rarely (if ever) about one thing, and usually about doing 2-3 or more things badly.

Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: chum1 on January 04, 2011, 12:14:27 PM
well, if your offense sucks against most of the quality opponents you play, getting better on defense might be a good idea.

We held Florida and UNLV to 57 and 63 points, respectively. Expecting the D to be significantly better than that is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) at best.

If you're bound and determined to bitch about our D, focus on our guards getting destroyed off the dribble. That's our real problem defensively.

where was i bitching about the d?  the people who would perfer to ignore a fixable problem are far more interesting.  but 57 and 63 are apparently not always good enough.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 04, 2011, 01:06:42 PM
well, if your offense sucks against most of the quality opponents you play, getting better on defense might be a good idea.

We held Florida and UNLV to 57 and 63 points, respectively. Expecting the D to be significantly better than that is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) at best.

If you're bound and determined to bitch about our D, focus on our guards getting destroyed off the dribble. That's our real problem defensively.

where was i bitching about the d?  the people who would perfer to ignore a fixable problem are far more interesting.  but 57 and 63 are apparently not always good enough.

Resources for improvement (time, focus, practice) are finite; you have to pick and choose where you improve. And the greatest opportunity for improvement was on offense, which is why Frank started focusing almost exclusively on offense the last two weeks. If our offense continues to move as well as it has the past few games, turn it over less, etc., and we continue to give up 1-3 backdoors per game, we're going to win plenty.

But dax will still be pissed.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: nicname on January 04, 2011, 01:08:54 PM
LOL at people who don't recognize the fact that in the 3 losses this year K-State gave up multiple easy buckets on the  most basic offensive play in basketball.

But hey, giving up numerous easy buckets on the most basic play in the game are all part of the JYC philosophy.  Nothing says JYC like 10 easy points for the other team in a nip-tuck ball game.

Nothing better than defending the perimeter hard . . . but wait a simple baseline cut results in yet another layup, oh well.








I'll give you Duke, but UNLV and Florida were our worst two offensive games of the year, and it really isn't even close.  Poor defense contributed on backdoor cuts and the like, but if you don't make shots, don't get oboards, don't get to the FT line, and turn the ball over a lot it doesn't matter. 

Duke 110.8 ..... 122.5
FLA    98.2 ........ 112.6
UNLV  88.7 .......  110.1  

First is Orating vs Cats.  Second is Orating this season.  Notice a trend?  Duke still had a lot of success offensively though.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: chum1 on January 04, 2011, 01:22:04 PM
love how the frankpologists turn this place into gpc bball ed.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kso_FAN on January 04, 2011, 01:33:36 PM
love how the frankpologists turn this place into gpc bball ed.

Have you read gpc bball discussion?
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: pissclams on January 04, 2011, 01:42:45 PM
love how the frankpologists turn this place into gpc bball ed.

Have you read gpc bball discussion?
at times it's equally as bad
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2011, 01:45:26 PM
Who is pissed . . .  :ck:
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kso_FAN on January 04, 2011, 01:45:43 PM
love how the frankpologists turn this place into gpc bball ed.

Have you read gpc bball discussion?
at times it's equally as bad

Nicely done.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: wetwillie on January 04, 2011, 01:46:26 PM
love how the frankpologists turn this place into gpc bball ed.

Can you define frankpologist for me so I can make a self diagnosis
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: catzacker on January 04, 2011, 01:47:59 PM
the back door cut is a problem with the style of defense that frank plays.  watch west virginia.  it's part of pressuring the passing lanes.  it's just freaking part of it.  the cover 2 defense has its inherent problems as well.  jfc, doesn't mean it's a bad defensive philosophy.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kso_FAN on January 04, 2011, 01:49:37 PM
the back door cut is a problem with the style of defense that frank plays.  watch west virginia.  it's part of pressuring the passing lanes.  it's just freaking part of it.  the cover 2 defense has its inherent problems as well.  jfc, doesn't mean it's a bad defensive philosophy.

Another Frank-ite. Sheesh.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: steve dave on January 04, 2011, 01:56:55 PM
the back door cut is a problem with the style of defense that frank plays.  watch west virginia.  it's part of pressuring the passing lanes.  it's just freaking part of it.  the cover 2 defense has its inherent problems as well.  jfc, doesn't mean it's a bad defensive philosophy.

 :horrorsurprise:
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2011, 02:07:29 PM
Getting burned by  backdoor cuts by over playing the passing lane, in on court situations where the cutter/maker of the easy layup under normal circumstances would be considered 2 if not 3 passes away from the ball is outstanding, "textbook" defense!!   Particularly when the defender many times as his back and head completely turned from the basketball . . . textbook!! 

Other examples of "textbook" pressure defense is both guards and at least one forward (usually a 3) completely leaving their men to stop ball when the driver is headed into 2 defenders (usually the 4 and the 5) who are in the 6-9 to 6-10 range . . . thus leaving the other teams best 3 point shooters wide open.   Love that version of our "textbook" defense as well.

Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kso_FAN on January 04, 2011, 02:09:03 PM
Getting burned by  backdoor cuts by over playing the passing lane, in on court situations where the cutter/maker of the easy layup under normal circumstances would be considered 2 if not 3 passes away from the ball is outstanding, "textbook" defense!!   Particularly when the defender many times as his back and head completely turned from the basketball . . . textbook!! 

Other examples of "textbook" pressure defense is both guards and at least one forward (usually a 3) completely leaving their men to stop ball when the driver is headed into 2 defenders (usually the 4 and the 5) who are in the 6-9 to 6-10 range . . . thus leaving the other teams best 3 point shooters wide open.   Love that version of our "textbook" defense as well.



More than one textbook for basketball defense?  :ck:
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 04, 2011, 02:11:54 PM
Getting burned by  backdoor cuts by over playing the passing lane, in on court situations where the cutter/maker of the easy layup under normal circumstances would be considered 2 if not 3 passes away from the ball is outstanding, "textbook" defense!!   Particularly when the defender many times as his back and head completely turned from the basketball . . . textbook!! 

Other examples of "textbook" pressure defense is both guards and at least one forward (usually a 3) completely leaving their men to stop ball when the driver is headed into 2 defenders (usually the 4 and the 5) who are in the 6-9 to 6-10 range . . . thus leaving the other teams best 3 point shooters wide open.   Love that version of our "textbook" defense as well.



More than one textbook for basketball defense?  :ck:

Impossible. There is only the daxtbook.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: chum1 on January 04, 2011, 02:15:09 PM
love how the frankpologists turn this place into gpc bball ed.

Can you define frankpologist for me so I can make a self diagnosis

see if you say things of the form "all part of the master plan" followed by endless justifacatory babble.  like snyder apologists except for frank.

guys getting burned because they have their heads up their asses isn't part of the plan.  even if they play for bob huggins.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: catzacker on January 04, 2011, 02:15:26 PM
jfc, dax.  every style of defense gives up something.  a 1-3-1 is inherently weak on the baseline, a 3-2 inherently week at the FT line....and various styles of man2man have their limitations or weaknesses as well.  it isn't like frank is teaching his kids to allow a backdoor cut, but when you pressure that much, it happens.  I can't give you stats on how our wing pressure led to a turnover, all I can give you is our overall defensive effeciency (which is good) and say that overall, the defensive philosophy works, even given its inherent problems.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sys on January 04, 2011, 02:23:20 PM
weird to bitch about backdoor cuts re. generally excellent defense in the uf & unlv games (i disagree w. _fan on defense quality in uf game) while ignoring the right-in-goddamned-front-door-&-drive-through-the-whole-rough ridin'-house horrible d against unf and the inability to handle a simple ball screen in the 1st half of the sav st game.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: catzacker on January 04, 2011, 02:26:40 PM
weird to bitch about backdoor cuts re. generally excellent defense in the uf & unlv games (i disagree w. _fan on defense quality in uf game) while ignoring the right-in-goddamned-front-door-&-drive-through-the-whole-effing-house horrible d against unf and the inability to handle a simple ball screen in the 1st half of the sav st game.

why were we going under screens?  were we daring them to shoot the 3?
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 04, 2011, 02:26:53 PM
weird to bitch about backdoor cuts re. generally excellent defense in the uf & unlv games (i disagree w. _fan on defense quality in uf game) while ignoring the right-in-goddamned-front-door-&-drive-through-the-whole-effing-house horrible d against unf and the inability to handle a simple ball screen in the 1st half of the sav st game.

What, you mean you didn't like Henriquez's technique of helping the screener set the screen on his own guy, effectively setting a double screen instead of hedging like he was supposed to? :gocho:
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: pissclams on January 04, 2011, 02:27:00 PM
weird to bitch about backdoor cuts re. generally excellent defense in the uf & unlv games (i disagree w. _fan on defense quality in uf game) while ignoring the right-in-goddamned-front-door-&-drive-through-the-whole-rough ridin'-house horrible d against unf and the inability to handle a simple ball screen in the 1st half of the sav st game.

it's almost like we have a lot of things wrong with this team, amirite?  nope, not right, read it here, not right at all.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: steve dave on January 04, 2011, 02:29:19 PM
the people doing the games talk about backdoor cuts a lot
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kso_FAN on January 04, 2011, 02:29:30 PM
weird to bitch about backdoor cuts re. generally excellent defense in the uf & unlv games (i disagree w. _fan on defense quality in uf game) while ignoring the right-in-goddamned-front-door-&-drive-through-the-whole-effing-house horrible d against unf and the inability to handle a simple ball screen in the 1st half of the sav st game.

UF scored 37 points, (well over 1 PPP) and shot 60% in the 2nd half against us and only had 5 TOs.  We also had 0 blocked shots in the 2nd half.  Plus it was one of our worst rebounding games of the year.  

Agreed on the problems vs SavSt and UNF.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2011, 02:36:03 PM
There are problems inherent in every defense for sure, weak points, open areas etc. etc.   There's inherent issues and then there's bad fundamentals, and stupid play. 
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sys on January 04, 2011, 02:36:40 PM
UF scored 37 points, (well over 1 PPP) and shot 60% in the 2nd half against us and only had 5 TOs.  We also had 0 blocked shots in the 2nd half.  Plus it was one of our worst rebounding games of the year.

yeah, i agree with the part about it being an average effort overall.  not about the specific breakdown.  i thought kstate was outstanding all through the 1st half, and pretty solid for the first several minutes (5?, 10?, i don't really recall) of the 2nd.  rebounding was a weak spot.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 04, 2011, 02:41:31 PM
There are problems inherent in every defense for sure, weak points, open areas etc. etc.   There's inherent issues and then there's bad fundamentals, and stupid play. 

Right. Backdoors are an inherent weakness in a D that overplays passing lanes. On-ball defenders getting broken down and blown by on the dribble is bad fundamental defense.

In other words, if you still demand to focus on defensive woes, your anger is still misguided even within that facet alone.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: bigDcat on January 04, 2011, 02:44:27 PM
weird to bitch about backdoor cuts re. generally excellent defense in the uf & unlv games (i disagree w. _fan on defense quality in uf game) while ignoring the right-in-goddamned-front-door-&-drive-through-the-whole-effing-house horrible d against unf and the inability to handle a simple ball screen in the 1st half of the sav st game.

why were we going under screens?  were we daring them to shoot the 3?

Don't we do this a lot?   :dunno:  Also, this is what okstate likes to do a lot with page.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 04, 2011, 02:51:03 PM
weird to bitch about backdoor cuts re. generally excellent defense in the uf & unlv games (i disagree w. _fan on defense quality in uf game) while ignoring the right-in-goddamned-front-door-&-drive-through-the-whole-effing-house horrible d against unf and the inability to handle a simple ball screen in the 1st half of the sav st game.

why were we going under screens?  were we daring them to shoot the 3?

Don't we do this a lot?   :dunno:  Also, this is what okstate likes to do a lot with page.

How you guard against a screen depends on where on the court the screen is set. It also depends some on the defensive philosophy; you can have the guy guarding the screener hedge a step (seems to be Frank's wish), have him hedge completely (Self's design), or even press underneath to force the screener to flatten out (Frank's guys do this sometimes, but not sure it's by design).

It also depends on knowing opposing personnel. In your example, a guy would have to know Page is looking almost exclusively to jack up a 3, and that he's a good shooter. It isn't as simple as "never go under the screen" though, as teams can scheme against that as well, and even if you go over the screen, you can get too far behind a guy like Page to defend the shot if the screen is set high enough.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2011, 03:19:58 PM
There are problems inherent in every defense for sure, weak points, open areas etc. etc.   There's inherent issues and then there's bad fundamentals, and stupid play. 

Right. Backdoors are an inherent weakness in a D that overplays passing lanes. On-ball defenders getting broken down and blown by on the dribble is bad fundamental defense.

In other words, if you still demand to focus on defensive woes, your anger is still misguided even within that facet alone.

Again, you don't over play the base line passing lane when the offensive player is 2 passes (at least) away from the ball (unless of course they're going against a K-State defender who is playing terrible ball and man defense, in that case, they're a cut and one pass away for a dunk/layup away from the ball.

Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: catzacker on January 04, 2011, 03:22:51 PM
frank's defense overplays the passing lane when the ball is one pass away. always have.  not sure what team you're watching.  we have always given up the back door.  even with huggins.  it's not fundamentally sound to give up the back door cut, but it's a bi-product of teaching pressure on the wings.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2011, 03:24:40 PM
frank's defense overplays the passing lane when the ball is one pass away. always have.  not sure what team you're watching.  we have always given up the back door.  even with huggins.  it's not fundamentally sound to give up the back door cut, but it's a bi-product of teaching pressure on the wings.

You're not paying attention.   If you look at the floor, you could see that many times the guys we are losing in our defense are at least 2 passes away . . . but we're playing such bad ball and man defense, that the offensive player simply makes a little cut and goes back door on us, and they're instantly one pass away while the K-State defender looks like this   :ck:
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 04, 2011, 03:45:59 PM
frank's defense overplays the passing lane when the ball is one pass away. always have.  not sure what team you're watching.  we have always given up the back door.  even with huggins.  it's not fundamentally sound to give up the back door cut, but it's a bi-product of teaching pressure on the wings.

You're not paying attention.   If you look at the floor, you could see that many times the guys we are losing in our defense are at least 2 passes away . . . but we're playing such bad ball and man defense, that the offensive player simply makes a little cut and goes back door on us, and they're instantly one pass away while the K-State defender looks like this   :ck:

Maybe your anger is so misguided because you have false memories. I can't think of a single backdoor cut against us this year that was 2 passes away from the ball. It's always been the wing a single pass away from the point with the ball.

Maybe--maybe--there have been one or two instances of what you're talking about, but the vast majority (if not all) of our backdoor failings have come from a single pass away.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: Poster formerly known as jthutch on January 04, 2011, 04:01:43 PM
frank's defense overplays the passing lane when the ball is one pass away. always have.  not sure what team you're watching.  we have always given up the back door.  even with huggins.  it's not fundamentally sound to give up the back door cut, but it's a bi-product of teaching pressure on the wings.

You're not paying attention.   If you look at the floor, you could see that many times the guys we are losing in our defense are at least 2 passes away . . . but we're playing such bad ball and man defense, that the offensive player simply makes a little cut and goes back door on us, and they're instantly one pass away while the K-State defender looks like this   :ck:

Maybe your anger is so misguided because you have false memories. I can't think of a single backdoor cut against us this year that was 2 passes away from the ball. It's always been the wing a single pass away from the point with the ball.

Maybe--maybe--there have been one or two instances of what you're talking about, but the vast majority (if not all) of our backdoor failings have come from a single pass away.
The bigger problem is that the guy that is gaurding 2 passes away is over playing and not in the right place for help side on the block.  Once one guy is beat everyone on the defense has to rotate to pick up the next guys man.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 04, 2011, 04:11:28 PM
frank's defense overplays the passing lane when the ball is one pass away. always have.  not sure what team you're watching.  we have always given up the back door.  even with huggins.  it's not fundamentally sound to give up the back door cut, but it's a bi-product of teaching pressure on the wings.

You're not paying attention.   If you look at the floor, you could see that many times the guys we are losing in our defense are at least 2 passes away . . . but we're playing such bad ball and man defense, that the offensive player simply makes a little cut and goes back door on us, and they're instantly one pass away while the K-State defender looks like this   :ck:

Maybe your anger is so misguided because you have false memories. I can't think of a single backdoor cut against us this year that was 2 passes away from the ball. It's always been the wing a single pass away from the point with the ball.

Maybe--maybe--there have been one or two instances of what you're talking about, but the vast majority (if not all) of our backdoor failings have come from a single pass away.
The bigger problem is that the guy that is gaurding 2 passes away is over playing and not in the right place for help side on the block.  Once one guy is beat everyone on the defense has to rotate to pick up the next guys man.

Our helpside D has generally been pretty good this year. Yes, when we get backdoor'd on occasion, someone screwed up a help assignment. However, helpside D (like backdoors in general) aren't nearly the concern our on-ball defense is.

But it sure is a fun topic for casual basketball fans like dax to pick up and run with. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2011, 04:20:49 PM
The typical bandwagon fan, like Kougs for example perpetually points to poor shooting or something on the offensive end during a K-State loss.   Failing to understand and/or compehend that at a critical juncture of the game, when K-State was in the lead, momentum was lost and in fact the game was lost on 4 or 5 serious defensive breakdowns, all done at the hand of the simplest play in basketball and in each case with the K-State player playing horrific ball and man defense and playing their man in an utterly stupid fashion given their mans relative court postion and relationship to the ball.   Said scenario has happened in 2 of the 3 K-State losses, with the 3rd loss showing K-State breaking down repeatedly in finding the ball in defensive transition and of course being backed doored repeatedly.   But a typical bandwagon fan, like Kougs for example, will once again point out offensive woes . . . yet the bandwagon fan, like Kougs for example, will embrace the JYC mantra will verve and vigor.





Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2011, 04:26:03 PM
frank's defense overplays the passing lane when the ball is one pass away. always have.  not sure what team you're watching.  we have always given up the back door.  even with huggins.  it's not fundamentally sound to give up the back door cut, but it's a bi-product of teaching pressure on the wings.

You're not paying attention.   If you look at the floor, you could see that many times the guys we are losing in our defense are at least 2 passes away . . . but we're playing such bad ball and man defense, that the offensive player simply makes a little cut and goes back door on us, and they're instantly one pass away while the K-State defender looks like this   :ck:

Maybe your anger is so misguided because you have false memories. I can't think of a single backdoor cut against us this year that was 2 passes away from the ball. It's always been the wing a single pass away from the point with the ball.Maybe--maybe--there have been one or two instances of what you're talking about, but the vast majority (if not all) of our backdoor failings have come from a single pass away.

Go back and look at the UNLV tape, there was a baseline backdoor cut for a layup where the ball was delivered from the top of the key, and where UNLV had a player on the wing on the same side the baseline guy made the cut to the basket from . . . that's 2 passes away from the ball in any normal defensive scenario, why are we over playing the passing lane 15 feet from the basket on the baseline??
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: OregonSmock on January 04, 2011, 04:40:22 PM
You all know I am right on this . . . you're all just too chickencac to admit it.





Welcome to www.goEMAW.com.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: chum1 on January 04, 2011, 04:48:13 PM
why does frank consistently yank players for following the master plan of allowing points off of backdoor cuts?  does he not understand his own genius?  c'mon frank!  c'mon!
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 04, 2011, 05:41:22 PM
frank's defense overplays the passing lane when the ball is one pass away. always have.  not sure what team you're watching.  we have always given up the back door.  even with huggins.  it's not fundamentally sound to give up the back door cut, but it's a bi-product of teaching pressure on the wings.

You're not paying attention.   If you look at the floor, you could see that many times the guys we are losing in our defense are at least 2 passes away . . . but we're playing such bad ball and man defense, that the offensive player simply makes a little cut and goes back door on us, and they're instantly one pass away while the K-State defender looks like this   :ck:

Maybe your anger is so misguided because you have false memories. I can't think of a single backdoor cut against us this year that was 2 passes away from the ball. It's always been the wing a single pass away from the point with the ball.Maybe--maybe--there have been one or two instances of what you're talking about, but the vast majority (if not all) of our backdoor failings have come from a single pass away.

Go back and look at the UNLV tape, there was a baseline backdoor cut for a layup where the ball was delivered from the top of the key, and where UNLV had a player on the wing on the same side the baseline guy made the cut to the basket from . . . that's 2 passes away from the ball in any normal defensive scenario, why are we over playing the passing lane 15 feet from the basket on the baseline??

So...once?
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: 0.42 on January 04, 2011, 05:51:08 PM
The typical bandwagon fan, like Kougs for example perpetually points to poor shooting or something on the offensive end during a K-State loss.   Failing to understand and/or compehend that at a critical juncture of the game, when K-State was in the lead, momentum was lost and in fact the game was lost on 4 or 5 serious defensive breakdowns, all done at the hand of the simplest play in basketball and in each case with the K-State player playing horrific ball and man defense and playing their man in an utterly stupid fashion given their mans relative court postion and relationship to the ball.   Said scenario has happened in 2 of the 3 K-State losses, with the 3rd loss showing K-State breaking down repeatedly in finding the ball in defensive transition and of course being backed doored repeatedly.   But a typical bandwagon fan, like Kougs for example, will once again point out offensive woes . . . yet the bandwagon fan, like Kougs for example, will embrace the JYC mantra will verve and vigor.







You all know I am right on this . . . you're all just too chickencac to admit it.





Welcome to www.goEMAW.com.

This thread just got taken to another level.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: pissclams on January 04, 2011, 05:51:35 PM
who cares if we miss shots?  we just need to shoot more!

Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sys on January 04, 2011, 05:54:15 PM
when dax dies, i hope someone has the foresight to donate his brain to science.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 04, 2011, 06:03:12 PM
when dax dies

Not going to happen.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: WillieWatanabe on January 04, 2011, 06:32:13 PM
I would love to eat with Dax at BWW and watch him diagram plays in his wing sauce. :love:
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 04, 2011, 06:41:18 PM
I would love to eat with Dax at BWW and watch him diagram plays in his wing sauce. :love:

(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fguidetocoachingbasketball.com%2Fimages%2F2_man_plays2.jpg&hash=325e4c87443a5c7a8c11b9d6e044109ce36533c3)

(but in honey bbq sauce)
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: Cire on January 04, 2011, 07:14:12 PM
JFC we're not a top 15 team.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: pissclams on January 04, 2011, 07:15:33 PM
JFC we're not a top 15 team.
the only reason we're not a top 15 team is because we haven't won enough games.  did you see how good our defense was against unlv?
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: da_Catz on January 05, 2011, 10:28:20 AM
Wow  :popcorn:

y'know, before reading this thread, I was really worried about our Defense (figured we couldn't shoot like cac forever on offense),
after reading this thread......not so much.

Cheers & E M A W  Y'ALL !
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: WillieWatanabe on January 05, 2011, 10:52:43 AM
JFC we're not a top 15 team.

glad you can read the rankings too.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: CHONGS on January 05, 2011, 11:44:09 AM
Confirmation Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: ednksu on January 05, 2011, 12:06:59 PM
Confirmation Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)
already hit them with the group think angle.  i doubt many even hit up wiki on it.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: CHONGS on January 05, 2011, 12:07:57 PM
Confirmation Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)
already hit them with the group think angle.  i doubt many even hit up wiki on it.
Completely different phenomenon.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: kougar24 on January 05, 2011, 12:15:11 PM
Confirmation Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)

Rivals star ratings would be a prime example of confirmation bias.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: ednksu on January 05, 2011, 12:16:54 PM
Confirmation Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)
already hit them with the group think angle.  i doubt many even hit up wiki on it.
Completely different phenomenon.
no actually its not.  

Go ahead and read Janis or at least the Wiki the two are very related.

Group think is similar because it can uses conformational bias when evaluating information which would threaten group norms or hypothesis.  
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: CHONGS on January 05, 2011, 12:28:36 PM
Confirmation Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)
already hit them with the group think angle.  i doubt many even hit up wiki on it.
Completely different phenomenon.
no actually its not. 

Go ahead and read Janis or at least the Wiki the two are very related.

Group think is similar because it can uses conformational bias when evaluating information which would threaten group norms or hypothesis. 
I see, you not referring to "herd mentality" then.   The accusations of sheeple fly about quite a bit these days.
I retract my statement towards you then.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: Fuktard on January 05, 2011, 12:46:38 PM
I tried to stay away from this thread for multiple reasons, not the least of which is our stupid rough ridin' fans thinking they are smart and railing on and on about us giving up a "backdoor cut" or "not having an out of bounds play".  Really?  We hold two top 30'ish teams to 57 and 63 points (they're avg 70 and 75 ppg) and all anyone wants to talk about is a couple of backdoor cuts.  Jeezus.  I get that it's frustrating and very obvious and so everyone wants to point it out when it happens but GMAFB.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: ednksu on January 05, 2011, 12:47:05 PM
Confirmation Bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)
already hit them with the group think angle.  i doubt many even hit up wiki on it.
Completely different phenomenon.
no actually its not. 

Go ahead and read Janis or at least the Wiki the two are very related.

Group think is similar because it can uses conformational bias when evaluating information which would threaten group norms or hypothesis. 
I see, you not referring to "herd mentality" then.   The accusations of sheeple fly about quite a bit these days.
I retract my statement towards you then.
:thumbsup:


interesting that people are failing to note improvement in areas which have hurt us.  I will be interesting to see if we can consolidate our progress into an entire game coming into conference play.
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: sys on January 05, 2011, 02:23:57 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/luke_winn/01/05/ohio.state.no.fouls/index.html?eref=sihp
Title: Re: Just a quick question . . .
Post by: mcmwcat on January 05, 2011, 03:01:48 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/luke_winn/01/05/ohio.state.no.fouls/index.html?eref=sihp

that's sick