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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Football => Topic started by: kso_FAN on September 19, 2010, 10:38:18 AM
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I want to do a thorough breakdown of this game, but I think it is important to address the biggest BBS talking point about our defense, defensive pressure and the play of our front 7. With all these comments about our lack of pressure; you may want to think about the strengths of our opponent.
When game planning for ISU it really comes down to this: would you rather take a guy like Arnaud, who is not a great thrower and who does not have a bunch of play making wide receivers, and let him sit in the pocket and try to beat you with his arm OR would you rather send lots of pressure, knowing eventually you will have containment issues, and then let Arnaud beat you with his legs. It was pretty clear to me we were willing to take our chances with Arnaud throwing the ball, knowing eventually ISU would make a mistake, and our defensive line did not play overly aggressive for this reason, besides being undersized. It seems pretty clear to me we were willing to rush 4, knowing that Harold would make a play or two, but more importantly keeping Arnaud in front of us and not letting him have a bunch of big runs.
Granted, our defense of the zone read wasn't the greatest, and we do have tackling issues. But again, we are way undersized and in this game and ISU's big oline did a great job staying on us in their zone run blocking; this will continue to an issue all year. But overall we did a good job not giving up running lanes outside of the tackles which in this game was the biggest threat against us, both with Arnaud and Robinson. I'd like to see the 4+ YPC by our opponents much lower than that, but we are going to have a defense all year that is going to have to give up something to take other team's strengths away b/c of our limitations in talent and in depth. Yesterday we gave up too many yards in the running game; much of that is correctable with better tackling, some of that is not b/c we just don't have the depth or talent to address it completely.
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ISU had less than 300 yards of total offense. :ksu:
Our containment rush is boring to watch, but I guess I'll take it if we keep winning.
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ISU's yardage could've been much less.
How difficult is it to teach these kids to attack the ball carrier instead of waiting for them to arrive? (see Hartman getting owned)
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Hartman is slow. He's trying he just can't get there.
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ISU's yardage could've been much less.
How difficult is it to teach these kids to attack the ball carrier instead of waiting for them to arrive? (see Hartman getting owned)
No question, we have to get better at tackling. But I've seen lots of Snyder coached teams get better at tackling as the year goes on, this needs to be one of them.
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Hartman is slow. He's trying he just can't get there.
Does anyone else think that last season's injury is still affecting him a bit? We need to just get Lamur back out there, and go for broke with TyZim and Lamur.
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Hartman is slow. He's trying he just can't get there.
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This is where we miss Lamur most, our most physical safety by far.
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Where was #23? I didn't even see him on the sideline.
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Agree to a certain extent, but it still would have been nice to get some pressure even with a contain focused, non-blitzing four rush mindset. We have a stud in Harold, but the other guys really haven't shown much. In matchups with a good o-line who will have their best guy and/or double team BH, we're going to need Prizell or Ralph or someone else to step up.
The "bend but don't break" defensive philosophy can work at all levels of football. Not all defensive coaches go with a Jim Johnson style aggressive defense, which was more Vic's style that Cosh's. We haven't given up a ton of points, which is a great sign for this team. But there are reasons for concern - we haven't faced an accurate passing QB yet; when we do it may expose weaknesses at LB and safety (the deterioration of Tysyn Hartman's play has been an inexplicable, terrible development this season) that may be tough to overcome. I hope not, but it's tough to be a "bend but don't break" defense that both doesn't get a lot of pressure and doesn't have effective LB or safeties (maybe I'm drinking the kool-aid, but I actually have been somewhat impressed by Zim's play these past two games).
Still, in the end we can't be unhappy with the results. Hopefully some players develop as the season progresses and with improvement some of these concerns won't be as big issues. For all the pessimism that exists here and that in some minor ways is reasonable, I don't think anyone would deny that 3-0 is inarguably great.
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Hartman is slow. He's trying he just can't get there.
Does anyone else think that last season's injury is still affecting him a bit? We need to just get Lamur back out there, and go for broke with TyZim and Lamur.
No. Zimmerman looked slow...mostly because he took some very poor angles. Hartman can make plays, Zimmerman hasn't made a single play that I can remember. I know Z is just a freshman, but he is not better than Lamur or Hartman at this point.
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Where was #23? I didn't even see him on the sideline.
Word is he was concussed.
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good post Fan. Harold really is our only chance of getting to the qb if we are rushing 4, and yesterday Iowa State's left tackle completely owned him. Like everyone else has already said, I just wish that we could actually hit a guy and see him drop at the point of contact, instead of holding on for dear life and watching them pick up an additional 3 yards.
One other thing did anyone else get extremely annoyed watching Prizell Brown on the play in which Arnaud dragged like 4 of our players? Brown literally for 5 seconds just stood next to the pile watching, while Arnaud made our whole team look like little bitches and dragged them an extra 4 yards. At least he redeemed himself later in the game by getting his ass kicked by the lineman on that penalty late in the game.
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Hartman is slow. He's trying he just can't get there.
Does anyone else think that last season's injury is still affecting him a bit? We need to just get Lamur back out there, and go for broke with TyZim and Lamur.
No. Zimmerman looked slow...mostly because he took some very poor angles. Hartman can make plays, Zimmerman hasn't made a single play that I can remember. I know Z is just a freshman, but he is not better than Lamur or Hartman at this point.
That can be corrected rather easily. TyZim's a smart kid, he'll progress well as the season moves on.
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I though Zimmerman looked pretty good (at least compared to the rest of the guys out there)
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Any rumblings on when Lamur will be back?
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Yep.
When ISU got into obvious passing mode at the end of the game, we got pressure on Arnaud. I agree our lack of pressure to that point was game-planned.
Of greater concern to me is the fact that our defensive players, by and large, are still a step slow and pretty weak. We're now into our seventh straight season where our guys usually get dragged forward when they tackle a ballcarrier, they get caught up in blocks, and they routinely get shrugged off by the ballcarrier.
Compare that to most of the teams playing last night. Auburn, Clemson, Texas, Tech, Iowa, Arizona, Boise...all of their defenses routinely lowered the boom and drove ballcarriers back...stoned running backs, blew up receivers. Our defense rarely does any of that, and rarely has for the better part of a decade now.
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Yep.
When ISU got into obvious passing mode at the end of the game, we got pressure on Arnaud. I agree our lack of pressure to that point was game-planned.
Of greater concern to me is the fact that our defensive players, by and large, are still a step slow and pretty weak. We're now into our seventh straight season where our guys usually get dragged forward when they tackle a ballcarrier, they get caught up in blocks, and they routinely get shrugged off by the ballcarrier.
Compare that to most of the teams playing last night. Auburn, Clemson, Texas, Tech, Iowa, Arizona, Boise...all of their defenses routinely lowered the boom and drove ballcarriers back...stoned running backs, blew up receivers. Our defense rarely does any of that, and rarely has for the better part of a decade now.
This. This and this.
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I've seen Cosh from when he was at South Carolina, then KSU, then Maryland and so on . . .
It just seems like the trend with his defenses is that they're in perpetual bend and attempt not to break mode.
If you think about it, maybe it was smart to try and make Arnoud beat K-State with his arm.
I still can't believe we held them to that few yards. It seemed like at times all they did was break off 10 yard runs, one after the other.
That being said, if you break down the game. Had we executed in the red zone, hit wide open receivers and not thrown a pick 6, we roll easy in that game. But alas, we simply don't have the talent or skills to make anything easy.
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Yep.
When ISU got into obvious passing mode at the end of the game, we got pressure on Arnaud. I agree our lack of pressure to that point was game-planned.
Of greater concern to me is the fact that our defensive players, by and large, are still a step slow and pretty weak. We're now into our seventh straight season where our guys usually get dragged forward when they tackle a ballcarrier, they get caught up in blocks, and they routinely get shrugged off by the ballcarrier.
Compare that to most of the teams playing last night. Auburn, Clemson, Texas, Tech, Iowa, Arizona, Boise...all of their defenses routinely lowered the boom and drove ballcarriers back...stoned running backs, blew up receivers. Our defense rarely does any of that, and rarely has for the better part of a decade now.
How does this translate when teams try to tackle Daniel Thomas? Is every team we've played in the last two seasons full of weak defenders? Maybe Arnaud and Robinson had something to do with running people over, I mean they're pretty good players. Just sayin'. :dunno:
Didn't Robinson have over 1000 yards last season, while missing a couple games b/c of injury?
Without Lamur we do lose a lot of the big hits in the run game, so hopefully his return will bring back some of the "boom" that's been missing.
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Yep.
When ISU got into obvious passing mode at the end of the game, we got pressure on Arnaud. I agree our lack of pressure to that point was game-planned.
Of greater concern to me is the fact that our defensive players, by and large, are still a step slow and pretty weak. We're now into our seventh straight season where our guys usually get dragged forward when they tackle a ballcarrier, they get caught up in blocks, and they routinely get shrugged off by the ballcarrier.
Compare that to most of the teams playing last night. Auburn, Clemson, Texas, Tech, Iowa, Arizona, Boise...all of their defenses routinely lowered the boom and drove ballcarriers back...stoned running backs, blew up receivers. Our defense rarely does any of that, and rarely has for the better part of a decade now.
How does this translate when teams try to tackle Daniel Thomas? Is every team we've played in the last two seasons full of weak defenders? Maybe Arnaud and Robinson had something to do with running people over, I mean they're pretty good players. Just sayin'. :dunno:
Didn't Robinson have over 1000 yards last season, while missing a couple games b/c of injury?
Without Lamur we do lose a lot of the big hits in the run game, so hopefully his return will bring back some of the "boom" that's been missing.
Iowa State is not our only piece of evidence.
We also played UCLA and Mo St. and had the same problem. So before you compare arguably the best Runner in the Nation (behind what is a very good run blocking o-line) to UCLA/MOST/ISU, think about what you're saying.
For the record (FIRE AND ICE 2010 Stats):
14 TFL (oppo 16)
6 Sacks (oppo 9)
3 FF/FR (oppo 3FF 2FR)
22 Passes BU (oppo 4)
2 INT (oppo 1 TAINT)
The secondary is more than pulling its weight, but that there is little pressure being brought to bear in the run game or the passing game. Very average teams are running at a 4.5ypc clip on the ground. And we aren't turning the ball over nearly enough to sustain that. The secondary cannot continue to cover at this rate, particularly when we face an actually good running team (see Nebraska, see oSu, maybe Baylor) and we start getting play-actioned/bootlegged to death. The real problem is what will happen when our Offense starts putting us in bad field position (see NU, see Texas, probably KU) then what the hell are we going to do with our bend?
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How does this translate when teams try to tackle Daniel Thomas? Is every team we've played in the last two seasons full of weak defenders? Maybe Arnaud and Robinson had something to do with running people over, I mean they're pretty good players. Just sayin'. :dunno:
Didn't Robinson have over 1000 yards last season, while missing a couple games b/c of injury?
Without Lamur we do lose a lot of the big hits in the run game, so hopefully his return will bring back some of the "boom" that's been missing.
My post wasn't just about the Iowa State game (7 years, better part of a decade, etc.), but if we're reduced to excusing our defense's lack of physicality and strength because of Iowa State's quarterback's and running back's ability, then that says something right there, and that something isn't good.
Go back and watch the defense in the Big 12 championship game against the greatest college football team of all time, and compare that to what we've got now. It's pretty depressing.
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We knew the defense was/is going to be absolute garbage this year. Our only hope is if Coffs can start hitting WR's and we score 30 points a game.
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How does this translate when teams try to tackle Daniel Thomas? Is every team we've played in the last two seasons full of weak defenders? Maybe Arnaud and Robinson had something to do with running people over, I mean they're pretty good players. Just sayin'. :dunno:
Didn't Robinson have over 1000 yards last season, while missing a couple games b/c of injury?
Without Lamur we do lose a lot of the big hits in the run game, so hopefully his return will bring back some of the "boom" that's been missing.
Go back and watch the defense in the Big 12 championship game against the greatest college football team of all time, and compare that to what we've got now. It's pretty depressing.
Yeah, our dline plays with no motor. I would kill for another andrew schull(?).
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Simply put, we don't have the explosive athlete play makers at the LB or S spots that have been hallmarks of Snyder's great defenses. Probably the best there is Lamur, and he's been out basically the past 2 games. So like I said, we are going to game plan to take away strengths of offenses, and I think we have a more than capable staff to do that, but our deficiencies will be exposed as well when we do that. The question will be how much that will be good enough to win games.
And on the Hartman complaints; I think its fair to point out he is in essentially his 3rd different scheme in 3 years of playing. Granted, there is carryover from last year, but certainly Burns and Cosh bring a different look, and I think especially in how we cover. Zimmerman has only really been in this system since he only has practiced since last spring after Cosh took over and Burns came in. I'm sure some of Hartman's struggles are do to that. And neither Zimmerman nor Hartman are heavy hitting safety types, which many of us hope them to be. That is why Zimmerman was Hartman's back up. But with Lamur out, those two are still the best two options, but again that takes away that physical presence at that spot that we need.
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IMO, with an undersized, slow Defense the DC needs to focus more on the fundamentals. Additionally, if we could be fundamentaly sound and use the swarming to the ball that we are glaringly missing, we could be more effective. DoD defenses ALWAYS amassed around the ball it was incredible to watch. Fundamentals; if the Pros work on it, we can certainly work on it too. There is nothing more frustrating than shitty arm tackles that even mediocre RBs can shed with ease.
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Maybe DOD defenses could swarm around the ball because those players could shed blocks?
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Yep.
When ISU got into obvious passing mode at the end of the game, we got pressure on Arnaud. I agree our lack of pressure to that point was game-planned.
Of greater concern to me is the fact that our defensive players, by and large, are still a step slow and pretty weak. We're now into our seventh straight season where our guys usually get dragged forward when they tackle a ballcarrier, they get caught up in blocks, and they routinely get shrugged off by the ballcarrier.
Compare that to most of the teams playing last night. Auburn, Clemson, Texas, Tech, Iowa, Arizona, Boise...all of their defenses routinely lowered the boom and drove ballcarriers back...stoned running backs, blew up receivers. Our defense rarely does any of that, and rarely has for the better part of a decade now.
How does this translate when teams try to tackle Daniel Thomas? Is every team we've played in the last two seasons full of weak defenders? Maybe Arnaud and Robinson had something to do with running people over, I mean they're pretty good players. Just sayin'. :dunno:
Didn't Robinson have over 1000 yards last season, while missing a couple games b/c of injury?
Without Lamur we do lose a lot of the big hits in the run game, so hopefully his return will bring back some of the "boom" that's been missing.
Iowa State is not our only piece of evidence.
We also played UCLA and Mo St. and had the same problem. So before you compare arguably the best Runner in the Nation (behind what is a very good run blocking o-line) to UCLA/MOST/ISU, think about what you're saying.
For the record (FIRE AND ICE 2010 Stats):
14 TFL (oppo 16)
6 Sacks (oppo 9)
3 FF/FR (oppo 3FF 2FR)
22 Passes BU (oppo 4)
2 INT (oppo 1 TAINT)
The secondary is more than pulling its weight, but that there is little pressure being brought to bear in the run game or the passing game. Very average teams are running at a 4.5ypc clip on the ground. And we aren't turning the ball over nearly enough to sustain that. The secondary cannot continue to cover at this rate, particularly when we face an actually good running team (see Nebraska, see oSu, maybe Baylor) and we start getting play-actioned/bootlegged to death. The real problem is what will happen when our Offense starts putting us in bad field position (see NU, see Texas, probably KU) then what the hell are we going to do with our bend?
I agree with this, especially the TO part. Just thought the "our guys look weak b/c they don't always drive the runner backwards" was a little retardy.
Our insanely conservative play calling will come back to bite us in the ass later this year when we play good teams. Our bend defense is short on depth, particluarly at D-Line, and repeatedly long drives from bending not breaking are going to wear them out.
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BTW, great thread!!! Enjoy this stuff immensely
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Just thought the "our guys look weak b/c they don't always drive the runner backwards" was a little retardy.
Where did it say that? Nice strawman. :rolleyes:
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IMO, with an undersized, slow Defense the DC needs to focus more on the fundamentals. Additionally, if we could be fundamentaly sound and use the swarming to the ball that we are glaringly missing, we could be more effective. DoD defenses ALWAYS amassed around the ball it was incredible to watch. Fundamentals; if the Pros work on it, we can certainly work on it too. There is nothing more frustrating than fecesty arm tackles that even mediocre RBs can shed with ease.
I guarantee with Snyder as head coach this staff focuses on fundamentals a lot. They just have to keep teaching it. We've had plenty of teams with better players start off as poor tackling teams that got better as the season went a long.
And on the "bend but don't break point", I'm sure we'd like to attack more, but with our deficiencies we can't afford to do that IMO. We will have to game plan to stop specific parts of offenses, and hope we can avoid things that can kill us. Most college offenses will eventually make a mistake, and those teams that don't make many mistakes are probably just better than us anyway.
Another reason why running the ball and TOP will be huge for this team.
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HFBIQ thread.
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Just thought the "our guys look weak b/c they don't always drive the runner backwards" was a little retardy.
Where did it say that? Nice strawman. :rolleyes:
Of greater concern to me is the fact that our defensive players, by and large, are still a step slow and pretty weak. We're now into our seventh straight season where our guys usually get dragged forward when they tackle a ballcarrier, they get caught up in blocks, and they routinely get shrugged off by the ballcarrier.
No need to be a jackass, same side here
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Just thought the "our guys look weak b/c they don't always drive the runner backwards" was a little retardy.
Where did it say that? Nice strawman. :rolleyes:
Of greater concern to me is the fact that our defensive players, by and large, are still a step slow and pretty weak. We're now into our seventh straight season where our guys usually get dragged forward when they tackle a ballcarrier, they get caught up in blocks, and they routinely get shrugged off by the ballcarrier.
No need to be a jackass, same side here
:rolleyes:
You posted a paraphrase of my post that you then labeled "retardy." But your paraphrase means something very different than what the original post actually said. I'm not concerned because our defense doesn't always drive the ballcarrier backwards. I'm concerned because they almost never do.
The symptoms I listed tend to indicate a lack of physicality/speed and a tentativeness that, when manifested consistently over an extended period of time (as I stated), will generally correlate with subpar defensive performance.
That being said, here's a beer. Same side. :cheers:
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And on the Hartman complaints; I think its fair to point out he is in essentially his 3rd different scheme in 3 years of playing. Granted, there is carryover from last year, but certainly Burns and Cosh bring a different look, and I think especially in how we cover. Zimmerman has only really been in this system since he only has practiced since last spring after Cosh took over and Burns came in. I'm sure some of Hartman's struggles are do to that. And neither Zimmerman nor Hartman are heavy hitting safety types, which many of us hope them to be. That is why Zimmerman was Hartman's back up. But with Lamur out, those two are still the best two options, but again that takes away that physical presence at that spot that we need.
imo, hartman has been mostly garbage since he started playing safety, regardless of the "system". zimmerman is just slow, but seems like he knows where he's supposed to be (just not fast enough to close).
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Where was Troy Butler on Saturday? Schemed off the field w/ ISU's 3 wr base set, but I was begging all game to see him for Hartman or Zimm. Can't cover any worse then that pair and is a hitter/tackler.
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FTR, I approve of this thread. So does the D bend just enough to spring us into a bowl?
OK carry on... :users:
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FTR, I approve of this thread. So does the D bend just enough to spring us into a bowl?
OK carry on... :users:
Im not sure this thread even belongs on this site as it was about the actual game... but if we win saturday this team should definitely be bowl bound...
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So, to briefly summarize, we've got mostly unathletic players and a non-aggressive defensive coaching scheme.
Let's fix it by recruiting better and replacing Cosh with a DOD quality coach.