goemaw.com

General Discussion => The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit => Topic started by: steve dave on March 08, 2022, 05:19:31 PM

Title: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: steve dave on March 08, 2022, 05:19:31 PM
important to remember when your grandfather is frothing at the mouth over fuel prices

https://twitter.com/carlquintanilla/status/1501242913321324546
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: Spracne on March 08, 2022, 05:31:53 PM
If these oil prices keep up, I'm going to have to sell my Bugatti and just walk everywhere  :shakesfist:
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: cfbandyman on March 08, 2022, 06:02:00 PM
Buy an electric car and you don't have to worry about it

(https://c.tenor.com/7HUogy7rXs4AAAAC/feel-me-think-about-it.gif)
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: Justwin on March 08, 2022, 06:07:02 PM
important to remember when your grandfather is frothing at the mouth over fuel prices

https://twitter.com/carlquintanilla/status/1501242913321324546

Why is it important to remember a stupid figure like this?
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: steve dave on March 08, 2022, 07:45:48 PM
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/ONtGroAbAsgMw/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 08, 2022, 07:52:39 PM
SteveDave is workin hard for his guy, Joe
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 08, 2022, 08:25:29 PM
https://youtu.be/3tw2P65wv5E
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: WildcatNkilt on March 08, 2022, 08:34:15 PM
People I see on Facebook bitch the most about gasoline are also the same ones that own their own business and can write it off. 
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: catastrophe on March 08, 2022, 08:50:58 PM
People who bitch the most about gasoline prices also generally don’t support universal healthcare.
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: Cire on March 09, 2022, 04:11:16 AM
The trump years/pandemic outed self employed people as some pretty awful/obnoxious people.

At least on my Facebook feed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: sys on March 09, 2022, 08:40:50 AM
People I see on Facebook bitch the most about gasoline are also the same ones that own their own business and can write it off.

i think most self-employed take the mileage deduction.
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: XocolateThundarr on March 09, 2022, 08:43:05 AM
People I see on Facebook bitch the most about gasoline are also the same ones that own their own business and can write it off. 

Yes, the fuel cost is a business expense.  However, at this point it doesn't appear bid prices are reflecting the increased fuel costs and other input price increases on projects.  With that being said, the increased fuel costs are affecting profit for most businesses.
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: Justwin on March 09, 2022, 12:07:02 PM
https://twitter.com/TheBabylonBee/status/1501304323761836034
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: DQ12 on March 09, 2022, 12:14:38 PM
i don't really get the poopoo'ing of gas prices (which have more than doubled over the last 18 months). 

i get people saying that the president doesn't really have a ton of control over it, but the fact that its risen that much in that timespan seems like something that's pretty significant.
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: wetwillie on March 09, 2022, 12:45:10 PM
They were artificially low because demand ground to a halt from a black swan event.   Also I’m sure those numbers In the graph are just direct costs not the indirect costs of fuel prices impacting other parts of consumer spending as a direct result of increased fuel costs.
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: star seed 7 on March 09, 2022, 01:03:34 PM
https://twitter.com/TheBabylonBee/status/1501304323761836034

Kind of a side note but the maga hate for him taking parental leave has always been so on brand lmao
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: 'taterblast on March 09, 2022, 01:05:11 PM
just work from home and don't drive that much imo
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: Cire on March 09, 2022, 01:56:13 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/09/stock-market-today-oil-prices/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=wp_main
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: mocat on March 09, 2022, 01:56:23 PM
it's too bad we've been consistently destroying our cities since the 1950s to make them more car-friendly
Title: Re: gasoline
Post by: bucket on March 09, 2022, 02:18:55 PM
it's too bad we've been consistently destroying our cities since the 1950s to make them more car-friendly

You don't want to get mocat started on this.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: steve dave on March 09, 2022, 05:48:15 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNZ_TNEWYAIvLf4?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: steve dave on March 09, 2022, 05:49:51 PM
assume everyone here is 100% behind nuclear. sys being a wildcard that could have some way the eff out of left field with a take on it or be the most strident advocate, would not shock me either way. wyd sys?
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: wetwillie on March 09, 2022, 06:29:43 PM
Why can’t we build nuclear? Who is standing in the way?
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: nicname on March 09, 2022, 06:44:56 PM
Yeah, I think nuke is the clear choice for all non-browns.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: chum1 on March 09, 2022, 07:03:24 PM
Why can’t we build nuclear? Who is standing in the way?

Rich people who profit from fossil fuels. Also people scared of nuclear accidents.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: CHONGS on March 09, 2022, 07:09:23 PM
I'm pro nuke, but I also think we shouldn't overlook the significant drawbacks.  Power at magnitude is never free.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: wetwillie on March 09, 2022, 07:10:42 PM
Why can’t we build nuclear? Who is standing in the way?

Rich people who profit from fossil fuels. Also people scared of nuclear accidents.

Don’t think that’s it
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: sys on March 09, 2022, 07:23:31 PM
assume everyone here is 100% behind nuclear. sys being a wildcard that could have some way the eff out of left field with a take on it or be the most strident advocate, would not shock me either way. wyd sys?

i'm pro-nuclear.  pretty sure there is a solid record of that in the climate change thread.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: sys on March 09, 2022, 07:25:39 PM
also i worked at the solar facility in that pic for like two years.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 09, 2022, 09:21:02 PM
Dumb thread is dumb
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: Tobias on March 09, 2022, 10:31:31 PM
nuke me up
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: cfbandyman on March 09, 2022, 11:30:50 PM
Why can’t we build nuclear? Who is standing in the way?

Rich people who profit from fossil fuels. Also people scared of nuclear accidents.

Don’t think that’s it

Regulations (NERC specifically) is probably the biggest thing besides just straight up costs. Sure fear from people about plants is there but fossil fuels right now (and Russia invading Ukraine aside) are just not very cheap nor profitable.

It takes about 20 years for a nuke plant as of now to go from concept to in service, and that is a lot to ask utilities to do when hey look in 3 years solar will be how much cheaper? Wind is doing what? It's a giant investment with a lot of risk.

Coal, is it were profitable takes about 10 years from concept to reality, natural gas about 5, wind/solar like 2-3 years based off size of install.

The other thing when it comes to thermal plants (like nuke, gas, coal) is there is a ton of ancillary utilities you have to have in place to make it work, namely water, but obviously a gas line of it's natural gas, or rail for coal or whatever. Nuke needs water, a storage plan, airport access, road access, just tons of things "in place" before you really even get to the site itself.

Be on the look out for thorium plants though, the nature of how they operate help it sidestep a lot of the regulations, from everything I heard that or small modular reactors, but those as of right now seen more suspect. IMO we won't see a new nuclear facility put into service this decade save that partially built one in Georgia
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: wetwillie on March 10, 2022, 07:42:21 AM
Why can’t we build nuclear? Who is standing in the way?

Rich people who profit from fossil fuels. Also people scared of nuclear accidents.

Don’t think that’s it

Regulations (NERC specifically) is probably the biggest thing besides just straight up costs. Sure fear from people about plants is there but fossil fuels right now (and Russia invading Ukraine aside) are just not very cheap nor profitable.

It takes about 20 years for a nuke plant as of now to go from concept to in service, and that is a lot to ask utilities to do when hey look in 3 years solar will be how much cheaper? Wind is doing what? It's a giant investment with a lot of risk.

Coal, is it were profitable takes about 10 years from concept to reality, natural gas about 5, wind/solar like 2-3 years based off size of install.

The other thing when it comes to thermal plants (like nuke, gas, coal) is there is a ton of ancillary utilities you have to have in place to make it work, namely water, but obviously a gas line of it's natural gas, or rail for coal or whatever. Nuke needs water, a storage plan, airport access, road access, just tons of things "in place" before you really even get to the site itself.

Be on the look out for thorium plants though, the nature of how they operate help it sidestep a lot of the regulations, from everything I heard that or small modular reactors, but those as of right now seen more suspect. IMO we won't see a new nuclear facility put into service this decade save that partially built one in Georgia

Thank you, that makes more sense than “rich people bad”
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: chum1 on March 10, 2022, 07:50:28 AM
Why can’t we build nuclear? Who is standing in the way?

Rich people who profit from fossil fuels. Also people scared of nuclear accidents.

Don’t think that’s it

Regulations (NERC specifically) is probably the biggest thing besides just straight up costs. Sure fear from people about plants is there but fossil fuels right now (and Russia invading Ukraine aside) are just not very cheap nor profitable.

It takes about 20 years for a nuke plant as of now to go from concept to in service, and that is a lot to ask utilities to do when hey look in 3 years solar will be how much cheaper? Wind is doing what? It's a giant investment with a lot of risk.

Coal, is it were profitable takes about 10 years from concept to reality, natural gas about 5, wind/solar like 2-3 years based off size of install.

The other thing when it comes to thermal plants (like nuke, gas, coal) is there is a ton of ancillary utilities you have to have in place to make it work, namely water, but obviously a gas line of it's natural gas, or rail for coal or whatever. Nuke needs water, a storage plan, airport access, road access, just tons of things "in place" before you really even get to the site itself.

Be on the look out for thorium plants though, the nature of how they operate help it sidestep a lot of the regulations, from everything I heard that or small modular reactors, but those as of right now seen more suspect. IMO we won't see a new nuclear facility put into service this decade save that partially built one in Georgia

Thank you, that makes more sense than “rich people bad”

It's an extremely powerful lobby.

How long has nuclear power been around? Hasn't there been ample time for it to ramp up by now?

I think I'm done trying to help you with your stupid person questions now.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: cfbandyman on March 10, 2022, 08:57:12 AM
Why can’t we build nuclear? Who is standing in the way?

Rich people who profit from fossil fuels. Also people scared of nuclear accidents.

Don’t think that’s it

Regulations (NERC specifically) is probably the biggest thing besides just straight up costs. Sure fear from people about plants is there but fossil fuels right now (and Russia invading Ukraine aside) are just not very cheap nor profitable.

It takes about 20 years for a nuke plant as of now to go from concept to in service, and that is a lot to ask utilities to do when hey look in 3 years solar will be how much cheaper? Wind is doing what? It's a giant investment with a lot of risk.

Coal, is it were profitable takes about 10 years from concept to reality, natural gas about 5, wind/solar like 2-3 years based off size of install.

The other thing when it comes to thermal plants (like nuke, gas, coal) is there is a ton of ancillary utilities you have to have in place to make it work, namely water, but obviously a gas line of it's natural gas, or rail for coal or whatever. Nuke needs water, a storage plan, airport access, road access, just tons of things "in place" before you really even get to the site itself.

Be on the look out for thorium plants though, the nature of how they operate help it sidestep a lot of the regulations, from everything I heard that or small modular reactors, but those as of right now seen more suspect. IMO we won't see a new nuclear facility put into service this decade save that partially built one in Georgia

Thank you, that makes more sense than “rich people bad”

It's an extremely powerful lobby.

How long has nuclear power been around? Hasn't there been ample time for it to ramp up by now?

I think I'm done trying to help you with your stupid person questions now.

Lol ok. Keep thinking they got these power companies by the balls (they don't). There are way cheaper options out there, and especially considering planning, just check out levelized costs (like this cut from an EIA doc), nuclear simply isn't cost effective (right now). You can also see why we are building combined cycle, wind, and solar like hella.

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/pdf/electricity_generation.pdf

As for "ramp up" tons of these new nuclear tech is still unproven, requiring R&D still. No one wants to build the "older" style nuclear, cause where are you going to put the spent fuel.

Unless you want to believe they paid off nuclear to keep them down over a 4 decade run, I doubt the now bust coal industry has a dime to spare. Combined cycle was not even a thing 4 decades ago, so that was one helluva long con by that industry.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: chum1 on March 10, 2022, 09:40:58 AM
I think the issue is a lot more complicated than a simple free market one. The government plays a huge role. Also, part of the answer to the question is why we haven't used nuclear more in the past and don't have more plants at the present time.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: cfbandyman on March 10, 2022, 06:30:45 PM
You're allowed to think whatever you want, but the cold hard truth is it's a very expensive energy source. I will agree with you it's more than just cost, but it's also like 80% costs so it just doesn't move the needle as much as you'd think to the heads of Evergy for example. It's like how coal used to be super cheap and now it's not so much. Do regulations and opinion affect this? Of course, but it seriously comes down to $$ at the end of the day. Regs and opinions are much more icing to an already built cake.

It's like my previous post about planning, nuclear, then coal, then gas are huge investment stakes and down payments for a utility, and ultimately their main cost becomes operating costs from their fuel, followed by straight up maintenance costs and then by how many people work at these facilities. Nuke plants have hundreds on staff, so does coal, gas only has people in the tens (like 30-40), and wind and solar? Only have someone there to check on it, so no one.

The barriers to viability are literally written in what it takes to get it to market. Nuke plants need giant containment structures, an specific fuel blend for the reactor, and somewhere to put it when it's done. Just a lot of physical assets to build and maintain. If you believe you can do it cheaper I have a non-containment done on the cheap former plant in a currently war torn country undergoing a 100+ year clean up to sell to you.

Coal has a giant boiler, hundreds if not thousands of miles of piping, process systems, boiler management system to install, that's what  truly killed coal, Obama's regs only hastened a die cast in how it inherently operates, basically a giant complex machine.

Gas's main stop was cost of fuel, but if you ever go to one vs a nuke and coal, literally you'll go that's it? They are incredibly simple tech all things considered. Once it's price of fuel came down, utilities will trade ease of operation and flexibility with low maintenance and fewer staff all day.

Then go to wind and solar, the tech is super straight, the cost is literally an economies of scale, and now that has happened, well, it's why it's winning. Incentives kick start, but making a new solar plant is just have a site, clear it, have a robot go around plopping some poles, and get a handful of dudes to assemble the arrays and wire it up, and you're basically done. Laughably easy to operate all things considered.


Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: steve dave on March 10, 2022, 08:00:51 PM
THE NUKE KNOWER ABOUTER HAS LOGGED ON (I say this seriously and not jokingly like I usually do this post)
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: kim carnes on March 10, 2022, 08:12:23 PM
I’m not extremely knowledgeable on this but I don’t think you use solar or wind for base load, nuclear would be for base load, so they’re not really comparable.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: 8manpick on March 10, 2022, 08:40:00 PM
I’m not extremely knowledgeable on this but I don’t think you use solar or wind for base load, nuclear would be for base load, so they’re not really comparable.
Stop thinking about 2022 tech, start thinking 2042 by the time new nuclear is online.

Still team #BuildNuclear though
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: sys on March 11, 2022, 12:12:30 AM
good thread.

https://twitter.com/JohnArnoldFndtn/status/1501941527295062025
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: michigancat on March 11, 2022, 05:12:21 AM
Is nuclear waste storage a factor at all? Because there is nuclear waste associated with nuclear power plants
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: steve dave on March 11, 2022, 07:35:22 AM
Yeah, but it’s not a big deal like people act like it is I think. It’s not like barrels of green ooze leaking into the soil. It’s tiny amounts of radioactive metals encased in concrete blocks. There’s not a lot of risk associated with it if it’s entombed right is what I’ve read.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: michigancat on March 11, 2022, 07:50:49 AM
Yeah, but it’s not a big deal like people act like it is I think. It’s not like barrels of green ooze leaking into the soil. It’s tiny amounts of radioactive metals encased in concrete blocks. There’s not a lot of risk associated with it if it’s entombed right is what I’ve read.
Definitely but still I don't think anyone wants it stored near them
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 11, 2022, 09:11:24 AM
i thought this was a very good doc about molten salt reactors (MSR) and also makes me wonder like why tf aren't we doing this??

https://youtu.be/Bitu17ur9RM
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: cfbandyman on March 11, 2022, 09:48:41 AM
I’m not extremely knowledgeable on this but I don’t think you use solar or wind for base load, nuclear would be for base load, so they’re not really comparable.
Stop thinking about 2022 tech, start thinking 2042 by the time new nuclear is online.

Still team #BuildNuclear though

This is the most correct take. I still think/want nuclear to have a seat at the table, it's just a slow burn.

As for base loading, the real trick is getting enough battery storage, which obviously takes time, but yeah, not the best but also not the  worst way to go about it. I do think the real answer to long term carbonless power is nuclear and hydro combined with the wind/solar etc. with battery/hydro storage, and I'd figure wind/solar is going to be about 40-50% of our total energy production, maybe more.

I will say another wildcard that is on the more realistic side is hydrogen run combined cycle plants (like a gas plant but burns hydrogen not natural gas) though the economics is still TBD and the engineering of hydrogen pipelines/safety with that is hard and also TBD, but feasible, there is a demonstrator unit being built in Utah right now. This would be taking known tech and using a different fuel source.

The other wildcard but definitely not going to be a thing unless major breakthroughs is fusion. It's improving all the time, but we're still I think many decades off from that. Even if they get a viable reactor by 2030 it'll take at least a decade before we're building them. Like the other thing fusion needs besides actually workable is like, making it so you can construct them reliably and operate them reliably. New stuff always has a teething process to operate.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: Kat Kid on March 11, 2022, 10:11:28 AM
Yeah, but it’s not a big deal like people act like it is I think. It’s not like barrels of green ooze leaking into the soil. It’s tiny amounts of radioactive metals encased in concrete blocks. There’s not a lot of risk associated with it if it’s entombed right is what I’ve read.

We will never have the ninja turtles or any of the cool super mutants if we don't get the barrels of green ooze leaking.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: Spracne on March 11, 2022, 12:40:01 PM
Yeah, but it’s not a big deal like people act like it is I think. It’s not like barrels of green ooze leaking into the soil. It’s tiny amounts of radioactive metals encased in concrete blocks. There’s not a lot of risk associated with it if it’s entombed right is what I’ve read.

We will never have the ninja turtles or any of the cool super mutants if we don't get the barrels of green ooze leaking.

I also took this as a TMNT reference.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: kim carnes on March 11, 2022, 04:40:51 PM
The new proposed tax on oil companies just made this thread obsolete  :cool:
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: wetwillie on March 11, 2022, 05:37:59 PM
Yeah, but it’s not a big deal like people act like it is I think. It’s not like barrels of green ooze leaking into the soil. It’s tiny amounts of radioactive metals encased in concrete blocks. There’s not a lot of risk associated with it if it’s entombed right is what I’ve read.
Definitely but still I don't think anyone wants it stored near them


Can’t be any worse than whatever wild crap they are cooking up inside NBAF
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: Dugout DickStone on March 11, 2022, 07:33:36 PM
Yeah, but it’s not a big deal like people act like it is I think. It’s not like barrels of green ooze leaking into the soil. It’s tiny amounts of radioactive metals encased in concrete blocks. There’s not a lot of risk associated with it if it’s entombed right is what I’ve read.

We will never have the ninja turtles or any of the cool super mutants if we don't get the barrels of green ooze leaking.

So much for Blinky
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 11, 2022, 08:37:29 PM
Yeah, but it’s not a big deal like people act like it is I think. It’s not like barrels of green ooze leaking into the soil. It’s tiny amounts of radioactive metals encased in concrete blocks. There’s not a lot of risk associated with it if it’s entombed right is what I’ve read.
Definitely but still I don't think anyone wants it stored near them


Can’t be any worse than whatever wild crap they are cooking up inside NBAF

If you wanna know what they’re cooking up just look inside, it’s just a big glass box
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: steve dave on March 12, 2022, 08:39:26 AM
a big talking point on Meade facebook is red diesel and everyone just use it because the government caused the energy prices to go high and nobody will ever catch you
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: sys on March 12, 2022, 06:31:08 PM
https://twitter.com/SOSuburbia/status/1502454608643321860
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: michigancat on March 12, 2022, 08:40:40 PM
a big talking point on Meade facebook is red diesel and everyone just use it because the government caused the energy prices to go high and nobody will ever catch you
My grandpa got caught using red diesel in a grain truck once. IIRC it wasn't cheap
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: steve dave on March 12, 2022, 08:43:14 PM
well, let me tell you what's also not cheap. IRL DIESEL. 
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: steve dave on March 12, 2022, 08:44:56 PM
all the meade ks magas are discussing making sure to clear the tanks before going to 1) rodeos 2) the city (dodge or garden being the cities) 3) cattle sales. apparently these are hot spots for getting nailed for red diesel.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 12, 2022, 09:12:02 PM
It’s high time western Kansas puts the “auto” back in vehicle autonomy. My motor my choice
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: michigancat on March 12, 2022, 09:13:38 PM
all the meade ks magas are discussing making sure to clear the tanks before going to 1) rodeos 2) the city (dodge or garden being the cities) 3) cattle sales. apparently these are hot spots for getting nailed for red diesel.
Tell them to change the fuel filters too
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: Tobias on March 12, 2022, 09:39:24 PM
i don’t even know what red diesel is :frown:
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: steve dave on March 13, 2022, 09:23:00 AM
i don’t even know what red diesel is :frown:

it's diesel that's red colored because there are no fuel taxes on it or something. as a kid I just thought diesel was red because we have our own diesel tanks and it's all red and we fill tractors and trucks with it. but then also people just use it in their pickups to avoid paying fuel taxes and that's illegal. but I think a lot of people just do it because who's actually going to stop you most of the time. obviously easier when you have your own fuel tanks for legitimate red diesel. probably get in trouble if you pull up to the Casey's red pump and fill up your F350.
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: chum1 on May 04, 2022, 12:17:47 PM
Just came across this. FRONTLINE  :love:

https://youtu.be/QAAbcNl4Lb8
Title: Re: Master Political Energy Thread
Post by: chum1 on May 04, 2022, 11:17:42 PM
Well, that is some seriously depressing crap.