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General Discussion => The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit => Topic started by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on April 22, 2015, 09:50:18 AM
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https://twitter.com/CHSommers/status/590549815660060672
Some of the responses are pretty funny. I think my favorite was
it makes sense if you assume that engineering is a bastion of misogyny with hookers required at every meeting
I don't think anybody assumes that.
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Isn't the wage gap concept based more on people performing same jobs for different pay versus teachers don't make as much as engineers?
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Isn't the wage gap concept based more on people performing same jobs for different pay versus teachers don't make as much as engineers?
don't let that stand in the way of a good thread :users:
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hell no, let her rip
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if hillary gets elected, she only gets paid $308k, right? thats some savings that some voters would appreciate!
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Isn't the wage gap concept based more on people performing same jobs for different pay versus teachers don't make as much as engineers?
No, and that's the problem. It isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. The 77-cents myth is a complete fabrication because it simply compares average wages of all women versus all men working full time, regardless of occupation or other lifestyle choices (such as chosing to work part time ot work less). Once you control for such factors, the gap narrows significantly.
HuffPo: Wage Gap Myth Exposed - By Feminists (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html)
The AAUW has now joined ranks with serious economists who find that when you control for relevant differences between men and women (occupations, college majors, length of time in workplace) the wage gap narrows to the point of vanishing. The 23-cent gap is simply the average difference between the earnings of men and women employed "full time." What is important is the "adjusted" wage gap-the figure that controls for all the relevant variables. That is what the new AAUW study explores.
See also http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-ad-says-women-are-paid-77-cents-dolla/ (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-ad-says-women-are-paid-77-cents-dolla/)
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Well that is stupid then. Of course a doctor makes more than a nurse, lawyer more than a paralegal etc.
KSUW and I are seeing eye to eye these days.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/upshot/the-pay-gap-is-because-of-gender-not-jobs.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=0
23 cents is the high end but there is certainly still a gap
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well damn now i don't know who to believe. snopes?
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this is kinda hard because kazudub has already convinced me that huffpo is not to be trusted
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lean in, mother fuckers.
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Now I'm losing my crap
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/upshot/the-pay-gap-is-because-of-gender-not-jobs.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=0
23 cents is the high end but there is certainly still a gap
Did you actually read that article? Here's the key part:
Dr. Goldin sets aside much of the conventional wisdom about what makes workplaces more equitable, like anti-discrimination laws and employee revolt. And she does not emphasize the “Lean In” prescription — involving men in domestic chores and improving women’s confidence and negotiating skills.
Instead, she said, the trick is workplace flexibility in terms of hours and location.
“The gender gap in pay would be considerably reduced and might vanish altogether if firms did not have an incentive to disproportionately reward individuals who labored long hours and worked particular hours,” she wrote in a paper published this month in The American Economic Review.
Occupations that most value long hours, face time at the office and being on call — like business, law and surgery — tend to have the widest pay gaps. That is because those employers pay people who spend longer hours at the office disproportionately more than they pay people who don’t, Dr. Goldin found. A lawyer who works 80 hours a week at a big corporate law firm is paid more than double one who works 40 hours a week as an in-house counsel at a small business.
Well color me shocked! Employers want to pay more money to people who work harder? That doesn't seem very fair, does it?
The fact remains that any number of studies by economists who have seriously looked at this conclude that the supposed "gender wage gap" is little to non-existent when controlling for certain quantifiable factors like different occupations, different hours, etc. Therefore, what little gap remains - maybe 1-6% depending on the study - is due to non-quantifiable factors.
What might those non-quantifiable factors be? Well, I suppose it could be discrimination, even though that violates state and federal law. Or maybe it's just that women are much less likely to negotiate for higher salaries, as numerous studies have shown.
I once talked with a self-proclaimed feminist about this. She was annoying as all fuckall and I knew this would rile her up. To my surprise, she admitted that the 77% statistic is simply based on women working less hours and in occupations that aren't as highly valued, but then she hit me with this: "But we have to consider the discrimination in society that is causing women to want to work fewer hours, and the discrimination that causes majority-female professions like teaching to pay less." In other words, if women choose to lead a more balanced work/family life, that wasn't a real choice - it was subconsciously foisted upon them by society's gender stereotyping. And a school teacher should be paid just the same as a neurosurgeon. What a fantasy world.
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I don't believe the liberal media.
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If true, we men have really dropped the ball for future men workers. Our father's gave us a decisive advantage which we squandered away (likely on message boards and other Internet stuff).
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i think i am reading here from ksudub that women, as a species, do not work as hard or as diligently as men. i am excited to get home and tell my wife about what i learned today.
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i think i am reading here from ksudub that women, as a species, do not work as hard or as diligently as men. i am excited to get home and tell my wife about what i learned today.
When it comes to hours worked, at a paying job, that appears to be correct. Sorry that your wife doesn't get paid for working harder than you at home, but that's life. You really should help her out more. Take out the trash, unload the dishwasher, maybe even hang up a shirt every once in a while.
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i think i am reading here from ksudub that women, as a species, do not work as hard or as diligently as men. i am excited to get home and tell my wife about what i learned today.
When it comes to hours worked, at a paying job, that appears to be correct. Sorry that your wife doesn't get paid for working harder than you at home, but that's life. You really should help her out more. Take out the trash, unload the dishwasher, maybe even hang up a shirt every once in a while.
Or hire help
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okay, i'm going to write that in an e-card.
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okay, i'm going to write that in an e-card.
you'll probably just have to read it to her
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So are we moving on now to dumb jokes?
I feel like it didn't get the play it deserved that ChiCat cited to a NYT blog post titled "Pay Gap is Because of Gender, Not Jobs" - which just cites a feminist complaining/admitting that the wage gap is because companies "disproportionately reward individuals who labored long hours and worked particular hours." That's pretty awesome and hilarious, right?
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So are we moving on now to dumb jokes?
I feel like it didn't get the play it deserved that ChiCat cited to a NYT blog post titled "Pay Gap is Because of Gender, Not Jobs" - which just cites a feminist complaining/admitting that the wage gap is because companies "disproportionately reward individuals who labored long hours and worked particular hours." That's pretty awesome and hilarious, right?
on the news this morning i saw a feminist selling cookies for $1.00 to men and $0.77 to women to highlight the gender pay gap. this lady told me that it was because women are socially conditioned to be happy with anything they can get, whereas men are encouraged to be takers and always ask for more.
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So are we moving on now to dumb jokes?
I feel like it didn't get the play it deserved that ChiCat cited to a NYT blog post titled "Pay Gap is Because of Gender, Not Jobs" - which just cites a feminist complaining/admitting that the wage gap is because companies "disproportionately reward individuals who labored long hours and worked particular hours." That's pretty awesome and hilarious, right?
on the news this morning i saw a feminist selling cookies for $1.00 to men and $0.77 to women to highlight the gender pay gap. this lady told me that it was because women are socially conditioned to be happy with anything they can get, whereas men are encouraged to be takers and always ask for more.
She would have made more money if she sold her cookies to everyone for $1.00. Maybe we have found the missing money/gap?
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So are we moving on now to dumb jokes?
I feel like it didn't get the play it deserved that ChiCat cited to a NYT blog post titled "Pay Gap is Because of Gender, Not Jobs" - which just cites a feminist complaining/admitting that the wage gap is because companies "disproportionately reward individuals who labored long hours and worked particular hours." That's pretty awesome and hilarious, right?
on the news this morning i saw a feminist selling cookies for $1.00 to men and $0.77 to women to highlight the gender pay gap. this lady told me that it was because women are socially conditioned to be happy with anything they can get, whereas men are encouraged to be takers and always ask for more.
She would have made more money if she sold her cookies to everyone for $1.00. Maybe we have found the missing money/gap?
Spite?
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Unlike some loud mouth hairy legged ovarie hating women, some women take time off to have babies and adjust their work schedules to raise them instead of letting someone else do it. They think of kids as people to be nutured, not to have around to play with when convenient like a dog. These scarfices most often mean taking a work track resulting lower wages. Make professions mommy track friendly, and tax the less out of hetro working mommies.
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i want someone to tell me that per unit of normalized time effort, women get paid the same.
i tend to believe that not to be the case, but society has of course conditioned me in that way.
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Unlike some loud mouth hairy legged ovarie hating women, some women take time off to have babies and adjust their work schedules to raise them instead of letting someone else do it. They think of kids as people to be nutured, not to have around to play with when convenient like a dog. These scarfices most often mean taking a work track resulting lower wages. Make professions mommy track friendly, and tax the less out of hetro working mommies.
huh?
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So are we moving on now to dumb jokes?
I feel like it didn't get the play it deserved that ChiCat cited to a NYT blog post titled "Pay Gap is Because of Gender, Not Jobs" - which just cites a feminist complaining/admitting that the wage gap is because companies "disproportionately reward individuals who labored long hours and worked particular hours." That's pretty awesome and hilarious, right?
I agreed that the wage gap is less than 23%. I would go so far as to agree that the actual gap is probably in range of your 6% estimate. Pretending that no company could possibly discriminate because it is against the law is just stupid.
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I really love our resident neo con circle jerks. "If we just control for all the facts that show we're blatantly wrong, we can make it seem like we're right!!"
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I really love our resident neo con circle jerks. "If we just control for all the facts that show we're blatantly wrong, we can make it seem like we're right!!"
Controlling for things like differences in occupations and hours worked are "facts that show we're blatantly wrong"? That's a really stupid thing to say, even by Edna standards.
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So are we moving on now to dumb jokes?
I feel like it didn't get the play it deserved that ChiCat cited to a NYT blog post titled "Pay Gap is Because of Gender, Not Jobs" - which just cites a feminist complaining/admitting that the wage gap is because companies "disproportionately reward individuals who labored long hours and worked particular hours." That's pretty awesome and hilarious, right?
I agreed that the wage gap is less than 23%. I would go so far as to agree that the actual gap is probably in range of your 6% estimate. Pretending that no company could possibly discriminate because it is against the law is just stupid.
Also stupid to dismiss societal pressures as a factor for why women may choose lower paying/less hour jobs
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So are we moving on now to dumb jokes?
I feel like it didn't get the play it deserved that ChiCat cited to a NYT blog post titled "Pay Gap is Because of Gender, Not Jobs" - which just cites a feminist complaining/admitting that the wage gap is because companies "disproportionately reward individuals who labored long hours and worked particular hours." That's pretty awesome and hilarious, right?
I agreed that the wage gap is less than 23%. I would go so far as to agree that the actual gap is probably in range of your 6% estimate. Pretending that no company could possibly discriminate because it is against the law is just stupid.
Also stupid to dismiss societal pressures as a factor for why women may choose lower paying/less hour jobs
Societal pressure is a pretty bad excuse for choosing a low paying job and then being mad about it being low paying.
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http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap?r=1
Linked from the front page of a known conservative circle jerk (Reddit)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlR6CdJtRWM
Bill Burr is a genius
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I really love our resident neo con circle jerks. "If we just control for all the facts that show we're blatantly wrong, we can make it seem like we're right!!"
Controlling for things like differences in occupations and hours worked are "facts that show we're blatantly wrong"? That's a really stupid thing to say, even by Edna standards.
lulz
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http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap?r=1
Linked from the front page of a known conservative circle jerk (Reddit)
I really enjoy you posting things that back up what the majority of gender gap proponents claim. The issue is only part head to head comparisons. The larger issue, which your link backs up, is this idea that women "gravitate" towards certain professions. It blatantly ignores the sociological factors which are at play. Then showing the absurdity even further, we see that many of these jobs which are held up as near head to head comparisons are held by men 90% of the time. Because, ya know, women don't like computers and sciencey things. Next talking point will be about oh women just don't work hard enough to get promotions to executive levels or that women want to take time off their careers so they aren't worthy of promotion.
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http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap?r=1
Linked from the front page of a known conservative circle jerk (Reddit)
I really enjoy you posting things that back up what the majority of gender gap proponents claim. The issue is only part head to head comparisons. The larger issue, which your link backs up, is this idea that women "gravitate" towards certain professions. It blatantly ignores the sociological factors which are at play. Then showing the absurdity even further, we see that many of these jobs which are held up as near head to head comparisons are held by men 90% of the time. Because, ya know, women don't like computers and sciencey things. Next talking point will be about oh women just don't work hard enough to get promotions to executive levels or that women want to take time off their careers so they aren't worthy of promotion.
Do you truly believe that men and women are totally equal, (Equal as in drawn to the same things, having the same strengths and weaknesses, etc.) and the sociological factors are what cause all of these differences? I'd argue that it is even more absurd to ignore genetic differences?
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Guys, we really need to pass some laws to fix all these "societal pressures." I'm thinking we outlaw pink, for starters. The color pink. Also, no more Barbies.
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http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap?r=1
Linked from the front page of a known conservative circle jerk (Reddit)
I really enjoy you posting things that back up what the majority of gender gap proponents claim. The issue is only part head to head comparisons. The larger issue, which your link backs up, is this idea that women "gravitate" towards certain professions. It blatantly ignores the sociological factors which are at play. Then showing the absurdity even further, we see that many of these jobs which are held up as near head to head comparisons are held by men 90% of the time. Because, ya know, women don't like computers and sciencey things. Next talking point will be about oh women just don't work hard enough to get promotions to executive levels or that women want to take time off their careers so they aren't worthy of promotion.
Do you truly believe that men and women are totally equal, (Equal as in drawn to the same things, having the same strengths and weaknesses, etc.) and the sociological factors are what cause all of these differences? I'd argue that it is even more absurd to ignore genetic differences?
Edna's either a complete dumbass or a good troll. Really puts the tard in libtard. Don't try to reason with him - just mock him.
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http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap?r=1
Linked from the front page of a known conservative circle jerk (Reddit)
I really enjoy you posting things that back up what the majority of gender gap proponents claim. The issue is only part head to head comparisons. The larger issue, which your link backs up, is this idea that women "gravitate" towards certain professions. It blatantly ignores the sociological factors which are at play. Then showing the absurdity even further, we see that many of these jobs which are held up as near head to head comparisons are held by men 90% of the time. Because, ya know, women don't like computers and sciencey things. Next talking point will be about oh women just don't work hard enough to get promotions to executive levels or that women want to take time off their careers so they aren't worthy of promotion.
Do you truly believe that men and women are totally equal, (Equal as in drawn to the same things, having the same strengths and weaknesses, etc.) and the sociological factors are what cause all of these differences? I'd argue that it is even more absurd to ignore genetic differences?
Edna's either a complete dumbass or a good troll. Really puts the tard in libtard. Don't try to reason with him - just mock him.
That one
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i want someone to tell me that per unit of normalized time effort, women get paid the same.
i tend to believe that not to be the case, but society has of course conditioned me in that way.
What do you mean by normalized time effort? Normalized by what?
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i want someone to tell me that per unit of normalized time effort, women get paid the same.
i tend to believe that not to be the case, but society has of course conditioned me in that way.
What do you mean by normalized time effort? Normalized by what?
unit time normalized per effort
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i want someone to tell me that per unit of normalized time effort, women get paid the same.
i tend to believe that not to be the case, but society has of course conditioned me in that way.
What do you mean by normalized time effort? Normalized by what?
unit time normalized per effort
So you mean subtracting out each person's BBSing time...
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Obviously a huge part of the so-called wage gap is due to choices the majority of women make. If you are constantly having kids and taking off work for it, it is going to negatively affect your career - if you don't want that to happen then don't have kids.
Same thing for taking time off to be a stay-at-home mom, you are missing out on years of experience as well as probably forgetting a bunch of your knowledge because you aren't using it on a daily basis. That is a choice that each individual has to make - making the most money is not the most important thing to some people, and that is fine but it should be accounted for when calculating the gender wage gap.
It's true that traditionally women choose professions with lower pay but in this day and age women can choose the higher paying professions if they want. Or men can choose to be stay-at-home dads if they want and their situation allows it.
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http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap?r=1
Linked from the front page of a known conservative circle jerk (Reddit)
I really enjoy you posting things that back up what the majority of gender gap proponents claim. The issue is only part head to head comparisons. The larger issue, which your link backs up, is this idea that women "gravitate" towards certain professions. It blatantly ignores the sociological factors which are at play. Then showing the absurdity even further, we see that many of these jobs which are held up as near head to head comparisons are held by men 90% of the time. Because, ya know, women don't like computers and sciencey things. Next talking point will be about oh women just don't work hard enough to get promotions to executive levels or that women want to take time off their careers so they aren't worthy of promotion.
Do you truly believe that men and women are totally equal, (Equal as in drawn to the same things, having the same strengths and weaknesses, etc.) and the sociological factors are what cause all of these differences? I'd argue that it is even more absurd to ignore genetic differences?
Edna's either a complete dumbass or a good troll. Really puts the tard in libtard. Don't try to reason with him - just mock him.
That one
What the eff is your problem?
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Obviously a huge part of the so-called wage gap is due to choices the majority of women make. If you are constantly having kids and taking off work for it, it is going to negatively affect your career - if you don't want that to happen then don't have kids.
Same thing for taking time off to be a stay-at-home mom, you are missing out on years of experience as well as probably forgetting a bunch of your knowledge because you aren't using it on a daily basis. That is a choice that each individual has to make - making the most money is not the most important thing to some people, and that is fine but it should be accounted for when calculating the gender wage gap.
It's true that traditionally women choose professions with lower pay but in this day and age women can choose the higher paying professions if they want. Or men can choose to be stay-at-home dads if they want and their situation allows it.
Yeah, but you're ignoring the "societal pressures" that push subconsciously force many women to value children over careers. Because I guess those silly little ladies just aren't smart enough to overcome those societal pressures...
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http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap?r=1
Linked from the front page of a known conservative circle jerk (Reddit)
I really enjoy you posting things that back up what the majority of gender gap proponents claim. The issue is only part head to head comparisons. The larger issue, which your link backs up, is this idea that women "gravitate" towards certain professions. It blatantly ignores the sociological factors which are at play. Then showing the absurdity even further, we see that many of these jobs which are held up as near head to head comparisons are held by men 90% of the time. Because, ya know, women don't like computers and sciencey things. Next talking point will be about oh women just don't work hard enough to get promotions to executive levels or that women want to take time off their careers so they aren't worthy of promotion.
Do you truly believe that men and women are totally equal, (Equal as in drawn to the same things, having the same strengths and weaknesses, etc.) and the sociological factors are what cause all of these differences? I'd argue that it is even more absurd to ignore genetic differences?
Not saying that at all, and you've taken my post to an extreme that I would obviously never argue. Of course there are certain differences between the two sexes at a biological level. But the sociological constructs also play into how women pick careers, and that is unarguably more important for me in this issue. Look at the language used to construct these arguments. Gendered language, talking about women being better suited for certain careers or that women naturally don't take to certain topics. The easiest example to me in this differentiation is medicine where women are 'naturally suited' to be nurses because they are supposed to be caring and nurturing whereas men 'should be' doctors because of their gravitation towards the sciences or because they have the mental fortitude to deal with the job's stresses.
But lets look further at various studies about female performance in high stress high wage jobs. Women who are seen as aggressive in the work place are often accused of being overly aggressive or bitchy. Men are excused as being competitors driven to succeed. Women have negative pressure put on them from even entering into these jobs. While schooling has improved, the hard sciences, engineering, and computer related fields are still overly dominated by men. Its clear that these are not because of genetic differences but a system which for decades drove women away from hard sciences.
The other issue which has some backing are promotion systems which value the labor of women less because of the potential 'risk' of pregnancy and child care. That has been one reason pointed to for why women have been putting off having families till later in life, career improvement that is. But lets not forget that the US lags behind the rest of the developed world in things like access to paid maternity leave, child care, and healthcare. All of these factor into women being marginalized in the work place if they want to have a career and a family.
While idiots like KSUW want to control for any factor which implicitly proves their position in error, a simple logical look at the facts shows that women do have a disadvantage on average in either access to jobs or payment and advancement in those jobs. Individual cases of women advancing in boardrooms are the exception not the rule.
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Obviously a huge part of the so-called wage gap is due to choices the majority of women make. If you are constantly having kids and taking off work for it, it is going to negatively affect your career - if you don't want that to happen then don't have kids.
Same thing for taking time off to be a stay-at-home mom, you are missing out on years of experience as well as probably forgetting a bunch of your knowledge because you aren't using it on a daily basis. That is a choice that each individual has to make - making the most money is not the most important thing to some people, and that is fine but it should be accounted for when calculating the gender wage gap.
It's true that traditionally women choose professions with lower pay but in this day and age women can choose the higher paying professions if they want. Or men can choose to be stay-at-home dads if they want and their situation allows it.
Yeah, but you're ignoring the "societal pressures" that push subconsciously force many women to value children over careers. Because I guess those silly little ladies just aren't smart enough to overcome those societal pressures...
Maybe we should be overcoming the societal pressure on men to be the bread winners.
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I thought society already had this discussion and it turned out the problem was that women don't like other women?
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The other day I was in a meeting and we were discussing how long a task was going to take. One of the guys said "That will only take about a man-hour. Well actually it will take a Mrs.Gooch-hour." (because I'm the person who would be doing the task)
And then I said, "That's worth way more than one man-hour." :lol:
That was probably sexist of me wasn't it?
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Good one mrs.gooch
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Mrs.dobber used to make more than me for the first 4 years of our marriage. Then we started a family and she chose to stay home with the kids. It is very unlikely that she will ever make more than me again if she ever goes back into the work force. I just want to know how she is counted in this equation, assuming she goes back to work. Also, fanningbrag.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Whenever people ask me how I became so successful, I always say societal forces and god.
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(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f1/21/5c/f1215c4b9aff24a93d189447f29ab6a7.jpg)