goemaw.com
TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: kso_FAN on March 30, 2015, 03:25:41 PM
-
I'm sure there are a few people still left that still want to talk K-State basketball. A discussion about key areas this team needs to improve seems appropriate at the end of a disappointing season. Feel free to add topics/stats as you see fit.
Topic #1: 2PT%; both sides of the ball.
This is logical as the biggest concern to be fixed because a) half the points in college basketball are scored on 2s and b) K-State was so bad this past year, both offensively and defensively.
This was a problem in the noncon, then the Cats corrected it early in the Big 12, but at the end of the season slipped back to being really bad (besides the KU/ISU week). The defense allowed opponents to shoot 49.5% on 2s for the season, the worst for any oscar coached team by 3%. In Big 12 play it was a slightly better at 48.7%, but still a bad number and only good for 8th in the league. We knew this was a concern when DJamer went out, but there was still some hope at the beginning of the year that maybe Bolden or Hurt could protect the rim, which neither was able to do. Last year's team allowed opponents to shoot only 45.9% (45.7% Big 12) and the only major losses were Southwell and Spradling, so there was reason to believe even without a major shot blocker that we could be decent. However, this simply didn’t happen and as a result K-State ended allowing 49.7% eFG%, the worst we’ve seen at K-State since 2005 and oscar’s worst since he was at Southern Illinois.
The offensive 2PT% was just as bad. The Cats only shot 46.8% on 2s (44.6% in Big 12), the worst for any oscar coached team. Of course, for some reason oscar's K-State teams haven't been great at 2PT% in any season, shooting 46.8% and 48.3% his first 2 years here. His Illinois teams generally shot in the 50s for 2PT% and often finished in the Top 50 nationally. The -2.7% differential in 2PT% this year is the only season a oscar coached team finished in the red on 2PT%. Again, this impacted eFG% and oscar finished with his worst shooting team ever at 47.7%.
Shooting and defending this poorly on 2s when over 65% of the shots and half the points come from these categories has to be corrected for any hope of improvement next year. Unfortunately, the bigs for K-State are up in the air at best and a complete mess at worst. Guys like Edwards and Westicles along with the new guards will have to be much better at both getting to the rim and finishing once they get there. Statistically, this past year looks like a statistical anomaly when you compare to the rest of the years oscar has been a head coach; generally offensive or defensive 2PT% (if not both) are strengths of the system he coaches. However, the negative trend of 2PT% on offense along with the lack of bigs or a legit rim protector continue to make this a major area of concern going into next season.
-
"the worst for any oscar coached team"
This resonates. So, we not only witnessed a terrible year, but oscar's worst year to boot. Oh my. :facepalm:
-
Should we do more alley oops
-
1) We need to replace a lot of talent we ran off/graduated. I don't think the odds of this happening are good.
2) Nothing else matters until 1 happens
-
I have 3.5 words to fix it all:
Play
Above
(the)
Rim
-
This is why we are lucky to have _FAN. Most people would have typed EVERYTHING but he went ahead and provided a detailed, thoughtful analysis of just one item.
-
is oscar too passionate about this game? me thinks he is.
my note to oscar would be this- take a step back, relax a little. it's only a game. focus less on that round orange dimpled ball and get back to the things that made you fall in love with this goofy game in the first place. and lastly, just enjoy yourself out there- HAVE FUN!
-
This is why we are lucky to have _FAN. Most people would have typed EVERYTHING but he went ahead and provided a detailed, thoughtful analysis of just one item.
Even crazier, I'll have more points ITT. Just thought I'd spread them out a bit.
-
Thanks for the write up _FAN
-
Regarding defense, was our perimeter defense worse, which allowed opposing teams to get better shots in the lane, which resulted in a higher 2pt%?
I know there was a lot of harassment over Foster's defense, and he played a lot of minutes. Nigel was criticized for his defense as well.
It felt like guards got a lot more penetration this year as opposed to last, and the shots they were getting were cleaner looks. That may have something to do with it outside of just not having a strong rim protector. :dunno:
-
I don't know how this can be possibly done when we could be replacing as many as 7 of our top 10 players. Next season's team has nothing contextually in common with this seasons team other than the coach.
-
oscar had the worst eFG% of any KSU team since 00-01. 99-00 (Asbury's 9-win season) had a higher EFG.
-
I don't know how this can be possibly done when we could be replacing as many as 7 of our top 10 players. Next season's team has nothing contextually in common with this seasons team other than the coach.
Yeah, once everyone left I questioned the value of even doing this because the teams will be quite different, but it's the off-season and why not? I still think there is some value in comparing with oscar's past teams. Statistical trends still show up that highlight what he values on offense and defense.
-
It's going to be really bizarre.
-
Considering Big Meat is our best chance at rim protection, defensive 2 pt % may get worse. Maybe DJamer comes back in beast mode though.
Considering our best players scoring in the paint are not our bigs, instead they are slashers like Westicles and Edwards, who seem to have touch on the ball like middle schoolers, our offensive 2 pt % may get worse.
A reliable PG could minimize these obvious flaws, but that is yet to be seen.
-
This is not meant to be a knock on DJamer in any way, shape or form, but I have a hard time understanding why I keep seeing such high hopes for him. This is a guy who averaged 13.9 minutes per game with 3.5 pts and 3.5 reb per game as a sophomore. Plus, he's coming off a foot injury that kept him out an entire season and that some fear may end his career.
-
This is not meant to be a knock on DJamer in any way, shape or form, but I have a hard time understanding why I keep seeing such high hopes for him. This is a guy who averaged 13.9 minutes per game with 3.5 pts and 3.5 reb per game as a sophomore. Plus, he's coming off a foot injury that kept him out an entire season and that some fear may end his career.
+1
Maybe we're all 90% fueled by false hope in the era of oscar at this point?
-
Considering Big Meat is our best chance at rim protection, defensive 2 pt % may get worse. Maybe DJamer comes back in beast mode though.
Considering our best players scoring in the paint are not our bigs, instead they are slashers like Westicles and Edwards, who seem to have touch on the ball like middle schoolers, our offensive 2 pt % may get worse.
A reliable PG could minimize these obvious flaws, but that is yet to be seen.
Defense would be better if we bring every day. Also defensive rebounding is a great way to increase 2 PT %. I think we can be a better rebounding team next year.
-
Marinade on this for a bit. If Luis Colon were on the 15-16 roster he'd be the second most sought after returnee on the roster behind Malek Harris.
-
New players, new hope. With the turd purging out of the way, Ithink Edwars, Malek and Wes will have great growth this summer. I am still pumped about Wade. I will lay my wallies on the chopping block, and say 20 plus wins next year.
-
I'm pretty sure the crap ass effort given by our players on most nights contributed more to the 2pt% thing that talent. When we wanted to guard and help, we held teams to bad 2pt%. When we didn't feel like guarding, we were bad.
On offense, a modicum of effort screening and cutting would have helped 2's.
-
I'm pretty sure the crap ass effort given by our players on most nights contributed more to the 2pt% thing that talent. When we wanted to guard and help, we held teams to bad 2pt%. When we didn't feel like guarding, we were bad.
On offense, a modicum of effort screening and cutting would have helped 2's.
:thumbs:
Putting forth effort made the defense look better and led to chickenwingings from time to time
-
The village idiots always have their two cents...
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
The village idiots always have their two cents...
That talking point is rolled out daily. It's basically the tuck "Orange Bowl tho"
-
i would really like to see an actual in-bounds play. like a good one that we use well
-
i would really like to see an actual in-bounds play. like a good one that we use well
Jesus, you're greedy.
-
i would really like to see an actual in-bounds play. like a good one that we use well
Oh man that's a big one. It's embarrassing to watch other teams execute inbounds plays like it's no big deal.
I noticed we started using the "throw the ball clear back across the halfcourt line" inbounds play a little more often, which is a slight improvement over the previous year's "Spradling calls timeout just before a 5 second call" inbounds play.
-
i would really like to see an actual in-bounds play. like a good one that we use well
Jesus, you're greedy.
i would really like to see an actual in-bounds play. like a good one that we use well
Oh man that's a big one. It's embarrassing to watch other teams execute inbounds plays like it's no big deal.
I noticed we started using the "throw the ball clear back across the halfcourt line" inbounds play a little more often, which is a slight improvement over the previous year's "Spradling calls timeout just before a 5 second call" inbounds play.
seeeee...
-
I believe we were told the inbounds problem was specific to our previous coach and that the current coach would fix it.
-
I believe we were told the inbounds problem was specific to our previous coach and that the current coach would fix it.
I don't remember us having a big inbounds problem while Frank was here. It's been infuriating during oscar's tenure though.
-
I believe we were told the inbounds problem was specific to our previous coach and that the current coach would fix it.
I don't remember us having a big inbounds problem while Frank was here. It's been infuriating during oscar's tenure though.
It is our shitty length, that has compounded the problem.
-
I believe we were told the inbounds problem was specific to our previous coach and that the current coach would fix it.
I don't remember us having a big inbounds problem while Frank was here. It's been infuriating during oscar's tenure though.
It is our shitty length, that has compounded the problem.
The only continuity between Frank and oscar has been terrible inbounds plays.
-
been #daxdoor'd a few times too
-
I believe we were told the inbounds problem was specific to our previous coach and that the current coach would fix it.
I don't remember us having a big inbounds problem while Frank was here. It's been infuriating during oscar's tenure though.
good to see you come around, we need _33 to make a shirt
-
been #daxdoor'd a few times too
Very disappointed that he was missing from chat for most of them. :frown:
-
I'm feeling good about 15-16
my new and radically different perspective
Many factors have come together recently to give me a drastically new perspective on our hoops programs. (As I am primarily an Illinois fan and secondarily a KSU fan, I will include Illini-related comments.) The bottom line for me is that I have accepted a more realistic vision of the Illinois program. This also applies to the KSU program and, frankly, almost all non-blue blood P5 programs.
While it is a worthy aspiration, it is foolish for me to think Illinois or KSU has been or ever will consistently be a top hoops program. There is no evidence that the programs have ever been at that level. Miracles happen but the odds are very long against it. Izzo has managed to pull it off at Michigan State but, even so and despite prolonged consistent success, they are still clearly not in the same league as the blue bloods. With some breaks, it is highly likely that programs like Illinois and KSU will have occasional stretches of very nice success just like somewhat recent stretches by Butler, Wichita State, etc.
As a fan, it was simply subjectively inaccurate thinking to believe Illinois was anything beyond a good program. Since 1975, Illinois has had two Final Fours, two Elite Eights, four Sweet Sixteens; KSU has had three Sweet Sixteens and three Elite Eights. That's over 40 years. Good at best.
Illinois fans that hate Weber often cite his "total failure" at Illinois and how he "destroyed a great program". Puh-leeze. First, the program was never great. Not even close. Second, the numbers don't support that. In nine seasons, Weber had one losing record and two seasons with less than 20 wins. Kruger, whom most (including me) would be thrilled to have as coach, had one losing record at Illinois in four seasons and never got out of the second round. He also had two losing records at Florida and one losing record at Oklahoma.
As a rule, I am now convinced that programs like Illinois and KSU will never attract the very best players. With long term sustained success, that could change. Had Brad Stevens stayed at Butler, that program had a good chance to become something much bigger. Just a chance. Maybe that would be true for Wichita State and Marshall. Maybe. Coach Few at Gonzaga seems to have hit that even though they haven't made a Final Four. For programs like Illinois and KSU, it takes luck and patience. It's a long term project for which a revolving door at the coaching position is an impediment.
Like top players, top coaches aren't lining up for gigs at programs like Illinois and KSU. One could argue that the Texas job is the most appealing opportunity in the country. Shaka Smart? He has been a hot name but I am not convinced he's a special coach. But presumably that's a reflection of the pool of coaching talent. If Shaka Smart is the best Texas could do, that means candidates for Illinois and KSU would be well down the list of available coaches. There is evidence that Weber is a good, capable coach (along with some concerns). There was virtually nothing about his performance at Ohio that would suggest Groce is a good, capable coach. I haven't seen compelling evidence to the contrary since he took the job. However, I think both schools are better off sticking with their coaches for a good long time. It takes a lot of patience for programs like Illinois and KSU. Also barring a miraculously prescient hire, coaching turnover is simply another big setback. Ride 'em out. Support 'em. Hope they can turn it around with time. The odds are against the next coach being a better option.
It's discouraging for me to lose so much optimism but I think getting a more realistic perspective will be good for me overall.
Note: I hope I got the facts right (e.g. re NCAA tourney performances, W-L records) but I didn't make this my life's work with detailed research and fact-checking.
This is a really good and thought-provoking thread. I have a close family member in a high leadership position in a high level NCAA athletic department. We recently discussed how every league has schools that are, and I hate to use this term but can't think of a better one, "have's and have not's." Basically, every league has a couple of teams that have every resource necessary for success, whether it be money, location, love from the media, blah blah blah. We talked about how obviously in the Big 12, Texas and OU are the have's. KU is kind of in the middle, mainly because they only care about one sport. A school like KSU, like it or not, is in the have not category. He mentioned that Michigan State is in the have not category in the Big 10.
It is what it is. I personally like it. I personally like being a fan of a "blue-collar" program rather than a "blue-blood" program.
My KSU buddies and I talk often about how it is hard to be a KSU fan. That is why I love it. It is easy to be a KU basketball fan, no big deal, if things go to crap, just trot out the resume and brag about this, that or the other. But it is hard to be a KSU fan, lots of the old KITN theory at work. But man, does it make it sweet when we do things that no one thinks, or wants, us to do.
We can win at KSU and we can win big. However, it does take special players and special coaches. LHC Bill Snyder is special, we all know that. But even for him it is tough.
All I know, I love KSU, always have, always will.
:bball:
-
I read all of that looking for something that would make me feel good about 15-16 and couldn't find it?? :dunno: If anything it made me feel worse......
-
I read all of that looking for something that would make me feel good about 15-16 and couldn't find it?? :dunno: If anything it made me feel worse......
The take-home point is that you feel bad because you have unrealistic expectations. Adjust your expectations and then you won't feel bad anymore.
:bball:
-
Scary thought we only have basically 4 healthy scholarship players returning. Edwards, Hurt, Malek,, and Wes.
-
Scary thought we only have basically 4 healthy scholarship players returning. Edwards, Hurt, Malek,, and Wes.
At least one of those guys probably won't be on the team next year.
-
my new and radically different perspective
Many factors have come together recently to give me a drastically new perspective on our hoops programs. (As I am primarily an Illinois fan and secondarily a KSU fan, I will include Illini-related comments.) The bottom line for me is that I have accepted a more realistic vision of the Illinois program. This also applies to the KSU program and, frankly, almost all non-blue blood P5 programs.
While it is a worthy aspiration, it is foolish for me to think Illinois or KSU has been or ever will consistently be a top hoops program. There is no evidence that the programs have ever been at that level. Miracles happen but the odds are very long against it. Izzo has managed to pull it off at Michigan State but, even so and despite prolonged consistent success, they are still clearly not in the same league as the blue bloods. With some breaks, it is highly likely that programs like Illinois and KSU will have occasional stretches of very nice success just like somewhat recent stretches by Butler, Wichita State, etc.
As a fan, it was simply subjectively inaccurate thinking to believe Illinois was anything beyond a good program. Since 1975, Illinois has had two Final Fours, two Elite Eights, four Sweet Sixteens; KSU has had three Sweet Sixteens and three Elite Eights. That's over 40 years. Good at best.
Illinois fans that hate Weber often cite his "total failure" at Illinois and how he "destroyed a great program". Puh-leeze. First, the program was never great. Not even close. Second, the numbers don't support that. In nine seasons, Weber had one losing record and two seasons with less than 20 wins. Kruger, whom most (including me) would be thrilled to have as coach, had one losing record at Illinois in four seasons and never got out of the second round. He also had two losing records at Florida and one losing record at Oklahoma.
As a rule, I am now convinced that programs like Illinois and KSU will never attract the very best players. With long term sustained success, that could change. Had Brad Stevens stayed at Butler, that program had a good chance to become something much bigger. Just a chance. Maybe that would be true for Wichita State and Marshall. Maybe. Coach Few at Gonzaga seems to have hit that even though they haven't made a Final Four. For programs like Illinois and KSU, it takes luck and patience. It's a long term project for which a revolving door at the coaching position is an impediment.
Like top players, top coaches aren't lining up for gigs at programs like Illinois and KSU. One could argue that the Texas job is the most appealing opportunity in the country. Shaka Smart? He has been a hot name but I am not convinced he's a special coach. But presumably that's a reflection of the pool of coaching talent. If Shaka Smart is the best Texas could do, that means candidates for Illinois and KSU would be well down the list of available coaches. There is evidence that Weber is a good, capable coach (along with some concerns). There was virtually nothing about his performance at Ohio that would suggest Groce is a good, capable coach. I haven't seen compelling evidence to the contrary since he took the job. However, I think both schools are better off sticking with their coaches for a good long time. It takes a lot of patience for programs like Illinois and KSU. Also barring a miraculously prescient hire, coaching turnover is simply another big setback. Ride 'em out. Support 'em. Hope they can turn it around with time. The odds are against the next coach being a better option.
It's discouraging for me to lose so much optimism but I think getting a more realistic perspective will be good for me overall.
Note: I hope I got the facts right (e.g. re NCAA tourney performances, W-L records) but I didn't make this my life's work with detailed research and fact-checking.
What kind of a unicorn is this guy? I mean, we're talking about a oscar supporter that's been through the ringer with two programs. That has to be like a one-in-a-gazillion chance.
-
I think we need to focus on more intrinsic values and not just winning and losing. Enjoy the game for what it is. Put a competitive team on the floor that works hard and plays solid fundamental basketball and I will be proud. If we consistently do this we will occasionally have a very good team. I can live with that and be proud to be a Wildcat. If that makes me a loser in the minds of some on this board so be it. People that are only about winning at whatever the cost hold very little sway in my life.
-
Scary thought we only have basically 4 healthy scholarship players returning. Edwards, Hurt, Malek,, and Wes.
At least one of those guys probably won't be on the team next year.
Could you even imagine being Wes right now? I mean, the other guys are rough ridin' stoked, no doubt. But Wes.... :cry: