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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: CHONGS on February 23, 2015, 09:06:54 AM
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I honestly don't know. I was thinking yesterday: if KSU gets to 19 losses, is this something that can be shrugged off as a bad year, you know every coach has them, kind of deal? Or is this a damning enough symptom in and of itself? Can you count on a bounce back? A small bounce back is very likely guaranteed, but how many good/great coaches have ever even had a 19 loss season? I honestly don't think very many have. Perhaps a few in the first few years of a massive rebuild, but a 19 loss season three years into a tenure (and 10+ years after starting DI coaching)?
Can anyone out there think of good/great coaches that have had a 19 loss season?
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Bad years are fine. Years below .500 arent, imo. Bad yr's happen and have to be expected every once in a while
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Huggins had a 19 loss season two years ago.
Jay Wright lost 19 games in 2012.
Mike Brey went 15-17 last year.
Roy Williams had 17 losses in 2010. (16-16 regular season)
Billy Donovan is 13-14 this year.
So yeah.
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There bad and there is "bad".
I could be wrong, I would just like to collect a list of good to great coaches with a 19 loss mark in their resume.
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Also, oscar has never missed the NCAA tournament 2 years in a row going back to 00-01 when he was at SIU. He has a knack for following up his bad years with decent seasons.
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Huggins had a 19 loss season two years ago.
Jay Wright lost 19 games in 2012.
Mike Brey went 15-17 last year.
Roy Williams had 17 losses in 2010. (16-16 regular season)
Billy Donovan is 13-14 this year.
So yeah.
See here we go. 17 is not 19 though, I want to be a bit of a stickler with 19.
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Here is a list (I will update as they are added):
Bob Huggins [2012-13] (13-19)
Jay Wright [2011-12] (13-19)
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Huggins had a 19 loss season two years ago.
Jay Wright lost 19 games in 2012.
Mike Brey went 15-17 last year.
Roy Williams had 17 losses in 2010. (16-16 regular season)
Billy Donovan is 13-14 this year.
So yeah.
all of those coaches have made the elite 8 with the schools they are at now except brey who has made the sweet 16. 2 have national championships.
they have earned a bad season. oscar has not.
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You should look at win % instead of number of losses. The number of games played really went up when they opened up the preseason tournaments
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those are some of the longest tenured coaches in the nation. its not a fair comparison, really. you cant fire those guys.
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Huggins had a 19 loss season two years ago.
Jay Wright lost 19 games in 2012.
Mike Brey went 15-17 last year.
Roy Williams had 17 losses in 2010. (16-16 regular season)
Billy Donovan is 13-14 this year.
So yeah.
all of those coaches have made the elite 8 with the schools they are at now except brey who has made the sweet 16. 2 have national championships.
they have earned a bad season. oscar has not.
I think a conference title is at least as valuable as an Elite Eight.
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You should look at win % instead of number of losses. The number of games played really went up when they opened up the preseason tournaments
I know, I though about that. Win % is not the best either because you usually get some lay-up teams in the first few rounds of these thing (if you are a good team). I mean 19 losses isn't any better probably, but I like a nice firm number psychologically.
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Huggins had a 19 loss season two years ago.
Jay Wright lost 19 games in 2012.
Mike Brey went 15-17 last year.
Roy Williams had 17 losses in 2010. (16-16 regular season)
Billy Donovan is 13-14 this year.
So yeah.
all of those coaches have made the elite 8 with the schools they are at now except brey who has made the sweet 16. 2 have national championships.
they have earned a bad season. oscar has not.
I think a conference title is at least as valuable as an Elite Eight.
On one hand: it's harder to get to the Elite Eight
On the other: a conference title is probably a better indicator of a consistently good season
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I don't think it's harder to make an Elite 8. Recent K-State history certainly doesn't support this.
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I don't think it's harder to make an Elite 8. Recent K-State history certainly doesn't support this.
Does it?
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I don't think it's harder to make an Elite 8. Recent K-State history certainly doesn't support this.
It just depends on the season. If you are in a conference where there are no legitimate top 10 teams, then a conference championship is much easier. That is why KU wins the Big 12 every year but makes it to the Elite 8 much less often.
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36 years between conference titles. We went to 3 Elite 8s during that time. Obviously both are tough for us.
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Of the seven major conference champs(American, ACC, Big 12, Big East, Big Ten, Pac-12, and SEC), how many make the Elite Eight each year?
but thats not a good measure, perhaps better is:
% of schools with a conference champ vs % of schools that have reached the Elite Eight.
I could be quite wrong, but I think living in B12 country has skewed our perceptions (maye even I am over compensating for it).
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Huggins had a 19 loss season two years ago.
Jay Wright lost 19 games in 2012.
Mike Brey went 15-17 last year.
Roy Williams had 17 losses in 2010. (16-16 regular season)
Billy Donovan is 13-14 this year.
So yeah.
None of those guys had recently been fired for being bad at their job.
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Three favorable matchups can get double digit seeds elite eights fairly easily. A conference title is a much better indicator of program strength.
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its not a question of which is tougher or means more, its a matter of those coaches have earned the right to have a bad season and oscar has not.
the difference between oscar having a bad season and those coaches having a bad season is what they have done for the school to earn it. i dont think a big 12 title with someone elses players is enough to say hes earned the right to a bad season.
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Scott Drew lost 21 and 19 games his 1st two years but that's a pretty extreme circumstance.
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Of the seven major conference champs(American, ACC, Big 12, Big East, Big Ten, Pac-12, and SEC), how many make the Elite Eight each year?
but thats not a good measure, perhaps better is:
% of schools with a conference champ vs % of schools that have reached the Elite Eight.
I could be quite wrong, but I think living in B12 country has skewed our perceptions (maye even I am over compensating for it).
Perhaps.
Over the last 20 years...
School Conf Champ Elite 8
Kentucky 9 11
UNC 8 10
Uconn 8 9
Kansas 16 8
Mich State 6 8
Arizona 6 7
Duke 8 6
Louisville 4 6
Florida 6 6
UCLA 4 5
Syracuse 4 4
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as you know, the answer to your question is that "how big of a deal" is different in every situation.
i think one of the biggest determinants in understanding how recoverable the program is, is what players are coming in to fix the problems that the current team is experiencing. i really think this team is a serviceable PG and a big man away having what most would have considered an acceptable season. PG in the b12 is tough and i don't think it's fair to expect a freshman to lead a team out of a 19 loss season. we will need to find a juco. DJamer will be back, hurt will have another year under him. we will be better next year, no doubt.
our non-con schedule is going to be easier next season too.
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Conference 'ship is probably a greater demonstration of consistently good generally, but in our conference 'ship year, 20% of teams in our conference won them.
When _FAN first pointed out recent KSU history would indicate a 'ship is harder, I initially agreed because my instant memory was that we've had an elite 8 more recently than a 'ship.
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oscar picked a great year to have a good team (2012-13, when the b12 was historically awful); and a terrible year to have a mediocre team (2014-15, when the big 12 is historically great).
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oscar picked a great year to have a good team (2012-13, when the b12 was historically awful); and a terrible year to have a mediocre team (2014-15, when the big 12 is historically great).
I will bet you a dollar not 1 of these teams makes the final four
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Rick Barnes had an 18 loss year in 12-13 (included loss in the CBI)
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Rick Barnes had an 18 loss year in 12-13 (included loss in the CBI)
I like Rick, but if I were a Texas fan, I'd want somebody else.
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as you know, the answer to your question is that "how big of a deal" is different in every situation.
i think one of the biggest determinants in understanding how recoverable the program is, is what players are coming in to fix the problems that the current team is experiencing. i really think this team is a serviceable PG and a big man away having what most would have considered an acceptable season. PG in the b12 is tough and i don't think it's fair to expect a freshman to lead a team out of a 19 loss season. we will need to find a juco. DJamer will be back, hurt will have another year under him. we will be better next year, no doubt.
our non-con schedule is going to be easier next season too.
All good points.
It is indeed context dependent. We will be better next year no doubt about it. But will it be better as in the program is healthier, or "better" as in we put a coat of new paint on rotted wood? I don't know. My fear is that we are treating the symptom rather than the disease. But then again I am coping with this season by being extremely pessimistic.
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Scott Drew lost 21 and 19 games his 1st two years but that's a pretty extreme circumstance.
yeah I think he gets a pass for that as a rebuilding job
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It is indeed context dependent. We will be better next year no doubt about it. But will it be better as in the program is healthier, or "better" as in we put a coat of new paint on rotted wood? I don't know. My fear is that we are treating the symptom rather than the disease. But then again I am coping with this season by being extremely pessimistic.
I've had the same coping method, this is as negative as I've been since "Turn Out the Lights".
oscar and the direction of the program has been awful this year. The excuses, mismanagement of the players, losing to bad teams, huge margin losses, and a terrible slow style that is hard to watch are just a few reasons. This season compared to expectations going in has been a disaster.
But I also tend to agree with Rusty that we aren't likely to make a better hire at this point. oscar bought himself another year with 2 good years to start his tenure here, his players or not. I don't think at a school like K-State firing a coach 2 years removed from a title sends a good message, besides the apprehensions of Currie making the hire. Its also very likely we'll be much better next year and perhaps an NCAA tournament team, even if that's hard to see right now.
The problem becomes being pessimistic and predicting the future. It seems likely we will become an every other year NCAA program, flipping between 7-10 seeds and NIT appearances with below .500 seasons mixed in. oscar isn't bad enough to put together a stretch like Wooly did, but its hard to say he'll ever get back to conference titles and Sweet 16s. However, its tough to fire someone based on stuff that hasn't happened yet. I fully expect oscar to back next year and it could be tough, but I also have no doubt next season will be better. Its how much better next year and beyond will be combined with the problems I've seen this year that makes having a positive outlook tough.
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I fully expect oscar to back next year and it could be tough, but I also have no doubt next season will be better. Its how much better next year and beyond will be combined with the problems I've seen this year that makes having a positive outlook tough.
on paper, which big 12 team(s) is k-state definitely better than next year?
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I think we will do better against the crappy teams next year but worse against the good teams. Overall, that's a worse season.
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I fully expect oscar to back next year and it could be tough, but I also have no doubt next season will be better. Its how much better next year and beyond will be combined with the problems I've seen this year that makes having a positive outlook tough.
on paper, which big 12 team(s) is k-state definitely better than next year?
Tech...maybe...probably.
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I fully expect oscar to back next year and it could be tough, but I also have no doubt next season will be better. Its how much better next year and beyond will be combined with the problems I've seen this year that makes having a positive outlook tough.
on paper, which big 12 team(s) is k-state definitely better than next year?
I don't know, I'm sure Illinois said the same thing.
If Foster is back, I think we can be a middle of the Big 12 team. We'll be counting on Brown/Wade coming in and being decent players. Improvement from guys like Jevon, Westicles, Edwards, Harris(s), Hurt.
Its not impossible.
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oscar bought himself another year with 2 good years to start his tenure here, his players or not.
I think oscar has had 1.5 good years. This year is in many ways a continuation of last season. I know the narrative is that "something" changed with Foster in the off-season, but we started sliding downhill last season once conference season started (.500 in the last 20 games last year).
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oscar bought himself another year with 2 good years to start his tenure here, his players or not.
I think oscar has had 1.5 good years. This year is in many ways a continuation of last season. I know the narrative is that "something" changed with Foster in the off-season, but we started sliding downhill last season once conference season started (.500 in the last 20 games last year).
Good point, the end of last year wasn't good. He still beat a Sweet 16 team in march and we made the tournament easily, so he gets the benefit of that.
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oscar bought himself another year with 2 good years to start his tenure here, his players or not.
I think oscar has had 1.5 good years. This year is in many ways a continuation of last season. I know the narrative is that "something" changed with Foster in the off-season, but we started sliding downhill last season once conference season started (.500 in the last 20 games last year).
Last years team was very consistent, schedule got harder and the team lost to better teams. Think you could say this year discredits last year because it was suppose to be something to build off of. Didn't do that.
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I don't know, I'm sure Illinois said the same thing.
If Foster is back, I think we can be a middle of the Big 12 team. We'll be counting on Brown/Wade coming in and being decent players. Improvement from guys like Jevon, Westicles, Edwards, Harris(s), Hurt.
Its not impossible.
i would say k-state is likely to be the eighth or ninth best team in the league next year talent wise, and going forward, my guess is that k-state will rarely be a top 5 most talented team. but to finish in the top half of the league, and to finish 10-8 or better in league play, they don't have to be in future seasons.
if k-state is a top 50 team in the country next year, as opposed to a fringe top 100 team like present, they'll be favored in every home game except kansas. they'll always have a very good chance of finishing 6-3 at home and the potential to finish 7-2. that obviously means they'll have to find a way to steal three or four road games every year - which is doable.
k-state's equalizer is its home court, which ranks top 3 in the league. not only has oscar only lost four big 12 games at home in three seasons, he's exceeded expectations in 16 of 25 of them (covering the spread is an objective measure of expectations).
it's clear that oscar's teams reach their motivational ceiling fairly consistently at home. if he can ever figure out how to get players to perform with the same intensity on the road, this program has a chance to hold its own in a league where they'll rarely have a talent advantage.
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if you want to fire a coach, it's pretty damn useful.
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k-state's equalizer is its home court, which ranks top 3 in the league. not only has oscar only lost four big 12 games at home in three seasons, he's exceeded expectations in 16 of 25 of them (covering the spread is an objective measure of expectations).
it's clear that oscar's teams reach their motivational ceiling fairly consistently at home. if he can ever figure out how to get players to perform with the same intensity on the road, this program has a chance to hold its own in a league where they'll rarely have a talent advantage.
Are you presuming the HCA will stay as is through the program's decline?
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My question is how do we get back to competitive asap:
1) Trying to bring a new coach - knowing it maybe hard after firing oscar 2 years removed from conference title?
2) Giving oscar another year knowing that the program maybe in worse shape for the next guy, but we don't have the stigma of being impatient?
A number of things have to improve for us to be legitimately good next season but the biggest would be for Foster to stay and be on the same page as the coach. At this point, I would genuinely surprised if he stayed.
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k-state's equalizer is its home court, which ranks top 3 in the league. not only has oscar only lost four big 12 games at home in three seasons, he's exceeded expectations in 16 of 25 of them (covering the spread is an objective measure of expectations).
it's clear that oscar's teams reach their motivational ceiling fairly consistently at home. if he can ever figure out how to get players to perform with the same intensity on the road, this program has a chance to hold its own in a league where they'll rarely have a talent advantage.
Are you presuming the HCA will stay as is through the program's decline?
if the fan base cares about k-state basketball, then i don't see why they wouldn't continue to support the team through an occasional down year, or even a string of them. my god, it's manhattan, kansas. what else is there to do once or twice a week during the winter?
seth child cinemas? a nice leisurely stroll down poyntz avenue? dinner at harry's?
the sense of entitlement is and always has been hilarious to me. this is a competitive sport and k-state is competing at the highest of levels. again, this year's big 12 is rated the fourth-toughest conference in the last 15 years. every school is trying to hire the best coaches, every school is trying to build better facilities, every school is trying to recruit at the highest level nationally. and k-state, because of its geography, is always going to be at a competitive disadvantage.
winning is hard.
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k-state's equalizer is its home court, which ranks top 3 in the league. not only has oscar only lost four big 12 games at home in three seasons, he's exceeded expectations in 16 of 25 of them (covering the spread is an objective measure of expectations).
it's clear that oscar's teams reach their motivational ceiling fairly consistently at home. if he can ever figure out how to get players to perform with the same intensity on the road, this program has a chance to hold its own in a league where they'll rarely have a talent advantage.
Are you presuming the HCA will stay as is through the program's decline?
if the fan base cares about k-state basketball, then i don't see why they wouldn't continue to support the team through an occasional down year, or even a string of them. my god, it's manhattan, kansas. what else is there to do once or twice a week during the winter?
seth child cinemas? a nice leisurely stroll down poyntz avenue? dinner at harry's?
the sense of entitlement is and always has been hilarious to me. this is a competitive sport and k-state is competing at the highest of levels. again, this year's big 12 is rated the fourth-toughest conference in the last 15 years. every school is trying to hire the best coaches, every school is trying to build better facilities, every school is trying to recruit at the highest level nationally. and k-state, because of its geography, is always going to be at a competitive disadvantage.
winning is hard.
What was our HCA like through Asbury and Wooly?
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as you know, the answer to your question is that "how big of a deal" is different in every situation.
i think one of the biggest determinants in understanding how recoverable the program is, is what players are coming in to fix the problems that the current team is experiencing. i really think this team is a serviceable PG and a big man away having what most would have considered an acceptable season. PG in the b12 is tough and i don't think it's fair to expect a freshman to lead a team out of a 19 loss season. we will need to find a juco. DJamer will be back, hurt will have another year under him. we will be better next year, no doubt.
our non-con schedule is going to be easier next season too.
These are all good points, although I'm not confident we will be better next year. Our record will certainly be better. I see DJamer mentioned quite a bit and I don't know what people expect of him but I would judge him a success if he averaged 6 and 6. He was 3 and 3 last season and I think there is reason to believe that he won't ever fully recover from his injury. The fact that he couldn't play this season is troubling to me.
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I liked the consistency that DJamer brought. He would rebound and pretty consistently finish around the rim. He isn't going to add a lot of range or do anything unusual but rebounds and layups are plenty.
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if the fan base cares about k-state basketball, then i don't see why they wouldn't continue to support the team through an occasional down year, or even a string of them. my god, it's manhattan, kansas. what else is there to do once or twice a week during the winter?
seth child cinemas? a nice leisurely stroll down poyntz avenue? dinner at harry's?
the sense of entitlement is and always has been hilarious to me. this is a competitive sport and k-state is competing at the highest of levels. again, this year's big 12 is rated the fourth-toughest conference in the last 15 years. every school is trying to hire the best coaches, every school is trying to build better facilities, every school is trying to recruit at the highest level nationally. and k-state, because of its geography, is always going to be at a competitive disadvantage.
winning is hard.
Good points. I agree that often the sense of entitlement is pretty ridiculous, but that's across the board for college sports.
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if the fan base cares about k-state basketball, then i don't see why they wouldn't continue to support the team through an occasional down year, or even a string of them. my god, it's manhattan, kansas. what else is there to do once or twice a week during the winter?
seth child cinemas? a nice leisurely stroll down poyntz avenue? dinner at harry's?
the sense of entitlement is and always has been hilarious to me. this is a competitive sport and k-state is competing at the highest of levels. again, this year's big 12 is rated the fourth-toughest conference in the last 15 years. every school is trying to hire the best coaches, every school is trying to build better facilities, every school is trying to recruit at the highest level nationally. and k-state, because of its geography, is always going to be at a competitive disadvantage.
winning is hard.
Good points. I agree that often the sense of entitlement is pretty ridiculous, but that's across the board for college sports.
It's not a sense of entitlement. It's wanting to compete for titles and win games. That is what competition is all about.
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What was our HCA like through Asbury and Wooly?
i was only around for the final wooly season, and it was terrible.
i'm not a k-state fan, don't know the history, don't care about the history, and don't have a strong understanding (clearly!) of the fan base. but i've observed that a certain level of pride in k-state hoops has been restored in recent years, and it seems to me that many fans have an interest in maintaining the momentum that has been built over the last decade.
as usual, fans will threaten to stay at home if the team stinks, which would be fine if the school was located in miami or san diego or somewhere else competing for your hard-earned entertainment dollars. but k-state is located in manhattan, quite possibly the most boring place on earth, but nonetheless a town that cares about the local university. there's no excuse for the level of fan apathy that was seen during the asbury and wooly years...and it would be a shame if the same occurs in the future.
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if the fan base cares about k-state basketball, then i don't see why they wouldn't continue to support the team through an occasional down year, or even a string of them. my god, it's manhattan, kansas. what else is there to do once or twice a week during the winter?
seth child cinemas? a nice leisurely stroll down poyntz avenue? dinner at harry's?
the sense of entitlement is and always has been hilarious to me. this is a competitive sport and k-state is competing at the highest of levels. again, this year's big 12 is rated the fourth-toughest conference in the last 15 years. every school is trying to hire the best coaches, every school is trying to build better facilities, every school is trying to recruit at the highest level nationally. and k-state, because of its geography, is always going to be at a competitive disadvantage.
winning is hard.
Good points. I agree that often the sense of entitlement is pretty ridiculous, but that's across the board for college sports.
It's not a sense of entitlement. It's wanting to compete for titles and win games. That is what competition is all about.
Yeah, I get that and agree, but its both.
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What was our HCA like through Asbury and Wooly?
many fans have an interest in maintaining the momentum that has been built over the last decade.
This is all I ever wanted from oscar. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.
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What was our HCA like through Asbury and Wooly?
i was only around for the final wooly season, and it was terrible.
i'm not a k-state fan, don't know the history, don't care about the history, and don't have a strong understanding (clearly!) of the fan base. but i've observed that a certain level of pride in k-state hoops has been restored in recent years, and it seems to me that many fans have an interest in maintaining the momentum that has been built over the last decade.
as usual, fans will threaten to stay at home if the team stinks, which would be fine if the school was located in miami or san diego or somewhere else competing for your hard-earned entertainment dollars. but k-state is located in manhattan, quite possibly the most boring place on earth, but nonetheless a town that cares about the local university. there's no excuse for the level of fan apathy that was seen during the asbury and wooly years...and it would be a shame if the same occurs in the future.
You're focusing on attendance, and while that will go down, I think the bigger impact will be on the atmosphere created by those in the fOOD. The OOD rage was motivated not just by the success of the team, but the style of the program.
And yeah, most of us would pick fOOD over movie given those 2 choices. But there's also booze.
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You're focusing on attendance, and while that will go down, I think the bigger impact will be on the atmosphere created by those in the fOOD. The OOD rage was motivated not just by the success of the team, but the style of the program.
And yeah, most of us would pick fOOD over movie given those 2 choices. But there's also booze.
frank lost 12 conference home games in five years against a league that was far less competitive than the big 12 oscar is competing in, and yet, with less talented teams, oscar has lost just four conference home games in three seasons.
i know that the rage and anger was fun for fans, but to the players on the floor, i think noise is noise - and the atmosphere during the oscar era to date has helped provide them with a sufficient amount of on-court energy.
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as you know, the answer to your question is that "how big of a deal" is different in every situation.
i think one of the biggest determinants in understanding how recoverable the program is, is what players are coming in to fix the problems that the current team is experiencing. i really think this team is a serviceable PG and a big man away having what most would have considered an acceptable season. PG in the b12 is tough and i don't think it's fair to expect a freshman to lead a team out of a 19 loss season. we will need to find a juco. DJamer will be back, hurt will have another year under him. we will be better next year, no doubt.
our non-con schedule is going to be easier next season too.
These are all good points, although I'm not confident we will be better next year. Our record will certainly be better. I see DJamer mentioned quite a bit and I don't know what people expect of him but I would judge him a success if he averaged 6 and 6. He was 3 and 3 last season and I think there is reason to believe that he won't ever fully recover from his injury. The fact that he couldn't play this season is troubling to me.
i think the biggest impact that DJamer could have had this season is taking the doubles off of gip. DJamer's not so skilled offensively that he demands a lot of attention but he is active on the boards and teams would pay for not having a man on him all the time. he and hurt will have to work well together next season. so i guess, i feel like his impact is more felt in the numbers of his teammates than his own.
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Yeah, I can't disagree that maybe oscar has something going with the players where they do better when getting to sleep at home or something that is independent of the in-fOOD atmosphere.
Saturday could be a look into what next year's crowd could be like.
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as you know, the answer to your question is that "how big of a deal" is different in every situation.
i think one of the biggest determinants in understanding how recoverable the program is, is what players are coming in to fix the problems that the current team is experiencing. i really think this team is a serviceable PG and a big man away having what most would have considered an acceptable season. PG in the b12 is tough and i don't think it's fair to expect a freshman to lead a team out of a 19 loss season. we will need to find a juco. DJamer will be back, hurt will have another year under him. we will be better next year, no doubt.
our non-con schedule is going to be easier next season too.
These are all good points, although I'm not confident we will be better next year. Our record will certainly be better. I see DJamer mentioned quite a bit and I don't know what people expect of him but I would judge him a success if he averaged 6 and 6. He was 3 and 3 last season and I think there is reason to believe that he won't ever fully recover from his injury. The fact that he couldn't play this season is troubling to me.
i think the biggest impact that DJamer could have had this season is taking the doubles off of gip. DJamer's not so skilled offensively that he demands a lot of attention but he is active on the boards and teams would pay for not having a man on him all the time. he and hurt will have to work well together next season. so i guess, i feel like his impact is more felt in the numbers of his teammates than his own.
I don't think they will see the floor together. oscar didn't play DJamer on the floor with Gip or JO his first two years, just as he refuses to play Bolden with Gip and Hurt this year.
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k-state's equalizer is its home court, which ranks top 3 in the league. not only has oscar only lost four big 12 games at home in three seasons, he's exceeded expectations in 16 of 25 of them (covering the spread is an objective measure of expectations).
it's clear that oscar's teams reach their motivational ceiling fairly consistently at home. if he can ever figure out how to get players to perform with the same intensity on the road, this program has a chance to hold its own in a league where they'll rarely have a talent advantage.
Are you presuming the HCA will stay as is through the program's decline?
if the fan base cares about k-state basketball, then i don't see why they wouldn't continue to support the team through an occasional down year, or even a string of them. my god, it's manhattan, kansas. what else is there to do once or twice a week during the winter?
seth child cinemas? a nice leisurely stroll down poyntz avenue? dinner at harry's?
the sense of entitlement is and always has been hilarious to me. this is a competitive sport and k-state is competing at the highest of levels. again, this year's big 12 is rated the fourth-toughest conference in the last 15 years. every school is trying to hire the best coaches, every school is trying to build better facilities, every school is trying to recruit at the highest level nationally. and k-state, because of its geography, is always going to be at a competitive disadvantage.
winning is hard.
GTFO, we're competing against Morgantown, Ames, Lawrence, Stillwater, Lubbock, and Waco; give me a break with this crap. And sense of entitlement is also a load of crap, there is no such thing as having unrealistic expectations. Fan bases that expect more from their programs are ALWAYS better and more attractive to coaches than the alternative. Every single successful long term college program in every single sport have one thing in common, the fans and boosters absolutely refuse to accept mediocrity. There is no reason for Alabama football, Oklahoma football, Kentucky basketball, UCLA basketball, UNC basketball etc to be as good as they are, they have no built in advantage over their peers. At some point a coach taught them how to win and the fans, boosters, and administration did not accept anything less. All of those programs had points where they fell and they all spared no expenses in fixing it and got them fixed. A sense of entitlement is wanting results but to not be willing to do what it takes to get those results. Bitching about oscar Weber and then supporting the program financially is not doing what it takes to correct the situation.
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as you know, the answer to your question is that "how big of a deal" is different in every situation.
i think one of the biggest determinants in understanding how recoverable the program is, is what players are coming in to fix the problems that the current team is experiencing. i really think this team is a serviceable PG and a big man away having what most would have considered an acceptable season. PG in the b12 is tough and i don't think it's fair to expect a freshman to lead a team out of a 19 loss season. we will need to find a juco. DJamer will be back, hurt will have another year under him. we will be better next year, no doubt.
our non-con schedule is going to be easier next season too.
These are all good points, although I'm not confident we will be better next year. Our record will certainly be better. I see DJamer mentioned quite a bit and I don't know what people expect of him but I would judge him a success if he averaged 6 and 6. He was 3 and 3 last season and I think there is reason to believe that he won't ever fully recover from his injury. The fact that he couldn't play this season is troubling to me.
i think the biggest impact that DJamer could have had this season is taking the doubles off of gip. DJamer's not so skilled offensively that he demands a lot of attention but he is active on the boards and teams would pay for not having a man on him all the time. he and hurt will have to work well together next season. so i guess, i feel like his impact is more felt in the numbers of his teammates than his own.
I don't think they will see the floor together. oscar didn't play DJamer on the floor with Gip or JO his first two years, just as he refuses to play Bolden with Gip and Hurt this year.
Yeah, last season DJamer exclusively spelled Gip, particularly at the end of the season.
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And sense of entitlement is also a load of crap, there is no such thing as having unrealistic expectations. Fan bases that expect more from their programs are ALWAYS better and more attractive to coaches than the alternative. Every single successful long term college program in every single sport have one thing in common, the fans and boosters absolutely refuse to accept mediocrity.
http://es.pn/1AmwCVw
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as you know, the answer to your question is that "how big of a deal" is different in every situation.
i think one of the biggest determinants in understanding how recoverable the program is, is what players are coming in to fix the problems that the current team is experiencing. i really think this team is a serviceable PG and a big man away having what most would have considered an acceptable season. PG in the b12 is tough and i don't think it's fair to expect a freshman to lead a team out of a 19 loss season. we will need to find a juco. DJamer will be back, hurt will have another year under him. we will be better next year, no doubt.
our non-con schedule is going to be easier next season too.
These are all good points, although I'm not confident we will be better next year. Our record will certainly be better. I see DJamer mentioned quite a bit and I don't know what people expect of him but I would judge him a success if he averaged 6 and 6. He was 3 and 3 last season and I think there is reason to believe that he won't ever fully recover from his injury. The fact that he couldn't play this season is troubling to me.
i think the biggest impact that DJamer could have had this season is taking the doubles off of gip. DJamer's not so skilled offensively that he demands a lot of attention but he is active on the boards and teams would pay for not having a man on him all the time. he and hurt will have to work well together next season. so i guess, i feel like his impact is more felt in the numbers of his teammates than his own.
I don't think they will see the floor together. oscar didn't play DJamer on the floor with Gip or JO his first two years, just as he refuses to play Bolden with Gip and Hurt this year.
Yeah, last season DJamer exclusively spelled Gip, particularly at the end of the season.
gip had shane last season. the double teams have killed our inside game this season, it's not unreasonable to think King DeBruce would utilize DJamer in an effort to increase gips production.
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I don't think DJamer would have had the same effect that Shane did for a variety of reasons. DJamer can only exist in the lane. So he's parked there 24/7/365 along with his man further clogging up the lane. I don't see that assisting Gip and his double-team issues.
I mean there are two more big guys standing around right where he wants to do his stuff. That's not helpful.
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And sense of entitlement is also a load of crap, there is no such thing as having unrealistic expectations. Fan bases that expect more from their programs are ALWAYS better and more attractive to coaches than the alternative. Every single successful long term college program in every single sport have one thing in common, the fans and boosters absolutely refuse to accept mediocrity.
http://es.pn/1AmwCVw
That kind of proves my point. Nebraska settled for something less than what they were accustomed to and they ended up with Mike Riley, they should have crap canned Bo long before they did and if they didn't switch conferences they may have. I do think they should have fired Solich, it was obvious that he fell behind K-State and Texas and if he didn't fall behind Mizzou it was very close to happening. Although the standard at Nebraska is lower, there is absolutely no way that Mike Riley will get the rope that Bo did.
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DJamer would have had more impact on the defensive end than offense and he would have helped this team.
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That kind of proves my point. Nebraska settled for something less than what they were accustomed to and they ended up with Mike Riley, they should have crap canned Bo long before they did and if they didn't switch conferences they may have. I do think they should have fired Solich, it was obvious that he fell behind K-State and Texas and if he didn't fall behind Mizzou it was very close to happening. Although the standard at Nebraska is lower, there is absolutely no way that Mike Riley will get the rope that Bo did.
what good coach expressed interest in the nebraska job, before or after bo pelini?
also, why is steve "NIT" alford the coach at ucla?
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Jesus. One bad season and some of the elites start re-accepting the "can't recruit to/win in Manhattan" meme as if Ames, Stillwater, Lubbock, and Waco don't rough ridin' exist.
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Jesus. One bad season and some of the elites start re-accepting the "can't recruit to/win in Manhattan" meme as if Ames, Stillwater, and Waco don't rough ridin' exist.
Who is accepting that?
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That kind of proves my point. Nebraska settled for something less than what they were accustomed to and they ended up with Mike Riley, they should have crap canned Bo long before they did and if they didn't switch conferences they may have. I do think they should have fired Solich, it was obvious that he fell behind K-State and Texas and if he didn't fall behind Mizzou it was very close to happening. Although the standard at Nebraska is lower, there is absolutely no way that Mike Riley will get the rope that Bo did.
what good coach expressed interest in the nebraska job, before or after bo pelini?
also, why is steve "NIT" alford the coach at ucla?
Nebraska would have had no trouble hiring Scott Frost or Jim Tressel. They just have too many fans with the same mindset you have, leading them to keep Bo for far too long and embrace the Riley hire.
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DJamer would have had more impact on the defensive end than offense and he would have helped this team.
Definitely. Do you think he would have played with Gip and would have helped Gip on offense?
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DJamer would have had more impact on the defensive end than offense and he would have helped this team.
Definitely. Do you think he would have played with Gip and would have helped Gip on offense?
Yes. I don't think oscar is that dumb.
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That kind of proves my point. Nebraska settled for something less than what they were accustomed to and they ended up with Mike Riley, they should have crap canned Bo long before they did and if they didn't switch conferences they may have. I do think they should have fired Solich, it was obvious that he fell behind K-State and Texas and if he didn't fall behind Mizzou it was very close to happening. Although the standard at Nebraska is lower, there is absolutely no way that Mike Riley will get the rope that Bo did.
what good coach expressed interest in the nebraska job, before or after bo pelini?
also, why is steve "NIT" alford the coach at ucla?
How much longer do you think Steve Alford will be at UCLA? They all hate him there and no one goes to games, he was on the hot seat the second he was hired. Do you even remember what your original point was? I didn't say these schools don't miss, I said they just don't say "oh well everyone loses, go team" when they do.
http://www.nbcsports.com/college-basketball/alfords-already-hot-seat-ucla
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DJamer would have had more impact on the defensive end than offense and he would have helped this team.
Definitely. Do you think he would have played with Gip and would have helped Gip on offense?
Yes. I don't think oscar is that dumb.
How does DJamer help Gip on offense exactly? I don't see it. I'm that dumb. It seems obvious to me he wouldn't.
Can't shoot, doesn't have post-moves. Must be in the paint. Him rebounding Gip's misses is helping Gip on offense? Is that it?
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DJamer would have had more impact on the defensive end than offense and he would have helped this team.
Definitely. Do you think he would have played with Gip and would have helped Gip on offense?
Yes. I don't think oscar is that dumb.
How does DJamer help Gip on offense exactly? I don't see it. I'm that dumb. It seems obvious to me he wouldn't.
Can't shoot, doesn't have post-moves. Must be in the paint. Him rebounding Gip's misses is helping Gip on offense? Is that it?
Also, I don't believe oscar has ever played two post-players together that were bruisers who couldn't shoot. Literally.
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Nebraska would have had no trouble hiring Scott Frost or Jim Tressel. They just have too many fans with the same mindset you have, leading them to keep Bo for far too long and embrace the Riley hire.
well, tressel has a five-year show-cause, and frost interviewed for the tulsa job (and didn't get it), but if you say so.
again, i'm all for k-state fans having high expectations. but for now, k-state hoops is probably the 35th best job in the country, meaning the top 34 coaches...all things being equal...would probably prefer to be elsewhere; and the up-and-coming coaches with aspirations of becoming great coaches will likely use k-state as a stepping stone to better jobs in better locations.
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Nebraska would have had no trouble hiring Scott Frost or Jim Tressel. They just have too many fans with the same mindset you have, leading them to keep Bo for far too long and embrace the Riley hire.
well, tressel has a five-year show-cause, and frost interviewed for the tulsa job (and didn't get it), but if you say so.
again, i'm all for k-state fans having high expectations. but for now, k-state hoops is probably the 45th best job in the country, meaning the top 44 coaches...all things being equal...would probably prefer to be elsewhere; and the up-and-coming coaches with aspirations of becoming great coaches will likely use k-state as a stepping stone to better jobs in better locations.
How did you reach that number?
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Nebraska would have had no trouble hiring Scott Frost or Jim Tressel. They just have too many fans with the same mindset you have, leading them to keep Bo for far too long and embrace the Riley hire.
well, tressel has a five-year show-cause, and frost interviewed for the tulsa job (and didn't get it), but if you say so.
again, i'm all for k-state fans having high expectations. but for now, k-state hoops is probably the 45th best job in the country, meaning the top 44 coaches...all things being equal...would probably prefer to be elsewhere; and the up-and-coming coaches with aspirations of becoming great coaches will likely use k-state as a stepping stone to better jobs in better locations.
How did you reach that number?
edited above, meant 35th.
forgot that football is 45th. :lol:
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DJamer would have had more impact on the defensive end than offense and he would have helped this team.
Definitely. Do you think he would have played with Gip and would have helped Gip on offense?
Yes. I don't think oscar is that dumb.
How does DJamer help Gip on offense exactly? I don't see it. I'm that dumb. It seems obvious to me he wouldn't.
Can't shoot, doesn't have post-moves. Must be in the paint. Him rebounding Gip's misses is helping Gip on offense? Is that it?
Also, I don't believe oscar has ever played two post-players together that were bruisers who couldn't shoot. Literally.
That's fair.
I think he would've been forced to play them together some, maybe 10 minutes a game max, but having a rotation of Gip or DJamer constantly at the 5 would have been the biggest benefit. Then Nino or Hurt rotate at the 4 and you get a much more stable rotation with your bigs.
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Nebraska would have had no trouble hiring Scott Frost or Jim Tressel. They just have too many fans with the same mindset you have, leading them to keep Bo for far too long and embrace the Riley hire.
well, tressel has a five-year show-cause, and frost interviewed for the tulsa job (and didn't get it), but if you say so.
again, i'm all for k-state fans having high expectations. but for now, k-state hoops is probably the 35th best job in the country, meaning the top 34 coaches...all things being equal...would probably prefer to be elsewhere; and the up-and-coming coaches with aspirations of becoming great coaches will likely use k-state as a stepping stone to better jobs in better locations.
the same is true for the rest of the Big 12 save Kansas and Texas. I mean literally every school has had successful coaches leave for greener pastures.
And I think you'll see fewer "stepping stone" moves from guys like Shaka Smart and Gregg Marshall and Archie Miller because rebuilding jobs are hard. (I think this would mean it would be more difficult for KSU to find an upgrade over oscar).
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this isnt ONE bad year. its two worse years. its about trends and bruces teams have been going downhill the more of his players have come through. no reason to think we will be any better next year...
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Nebraska would have had no trouble hiring Scott Frost or Jim Tressel. They just have too many fans with the same mindset you have, leading them to keep Bo for far too long and embrace the Riley hire.
well, tressel has a five-year show-cause, and frost interviewed for the tulsa job (and didn't get it), but if you say so.
again, i'm all for k-state fans having high expectations. but for now, k-state hoops is probably the 35th best job in the country, meaning the top 34 coaches...all things being equal...would probably prefer to be elsewhere; and the up-and-coming coaches with aspirations of becoming great coaches will likely use k-state as a stepping stone to better jobs in better locations.
the same is true for the rest of the Big 12 save Kansas and Texas. I mean literally every school has had successful coaches leave for greener pastures.
And I think you'll see fewer "stepping stone" moves from guys like Shaka Smart and Gregg Marshall and Archie Miller because rebuilding jobs are hard. (I think this would mean it would be more difficult for KSU to find an upgrade over oscar).
you're probably right. the big 12 (k-state included) also has at least helped itself out a bunch by being super competitive with salary. oscar had the 25th-highest salary of any coach in the ncaa tourney last year, ahead of coaches at uconn, tenn, colorado, iowa, nebraska, cincy, iowa st, etc.
k-state has become a more desirable program. i would coach there for 500k.
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Jesus. One bad season and some of the elites start re-accepting the "can't recruit to/win in Manhattan" meme as if Ames, Stillwater, and Waco don't rough ridin' exist.
Who is accepting that?
Good points. I agree that often the sense of entitlement is pretty ridiculous, but that's across the board for college sports.
Essentially j rake is saying that it's ridiculous to have a sense of entitlement (which translates to the belief that KSU should be in the top half of the Big 12 on a consistent basis) because we're poor little KSU stuck out in the middle of the nowhere of the plains. I argue that he vastly overestimates the role that geography plays in predicting future success.
Stillwater is even more isolated than MHK because of the lack of airport nearby, but they've built a consistently good program. Same with Morgantown. Waco is a complete shithole but they've bypassed us despite the Texas basketball talent pool not being nearly as deep as football. Ames is Ames, yet we all know what they've done. Kruger's built a consistent(ish) winner at OU despite their fanbase treating hoops only slightly better than Texas fans, and Norman has very little college town atmosphere to speak of. Tech and TCU should *always* be behind EMAW in hoops.
Brad Underwood's program, Stephen F. Austin, is 2.5 hours from any airport at all, yet he and Danny Kaspar have sustained a tradition of winning in a conference that has or once had Huntsville (close to Houston), San Marcos (within an hour of Austin and San Antonio, Hammond (close to New Orleans), and Conway (close to Little Rock). Meanwhile, Texas State, despite having one of the best budgets, recruiting bases, and college towns in the Southland/WAC/Sun Belt, has sucked complete ass since the late 90's because of terrible coaching and administrative support. I know Sun Belt =/ Big 12, but geography is not always the deciding factor in determining competitiveness. Coaching, winning tradition, administrative support/decision making for the program can also be incredibly important.
Outside of the lost 2 decades before Huggs, there's a solid tradition surrounding the EMAW program. The BTF is a fantastic facility and should be a major recruiting sell. MHK has an airport with flights to DFW and ORD. And, unlike OU/every single Texas school, the fans absolutely give a crap about the program. It's not *that* hard to turn EMAW hoops back around and put it in the top half of the Big 12 with the right coach. Sure, EMAW may have to get creative about it and do a Huggs/Sampson style hire and get someone who isn't scared of skirting NCAA rules/arbitrary shirt tuck standards of morality, but it can be done. That's why Currie's philosophy is such a problem, his obsession with doing things "the right way" and appealing to the gullible Midwestern ethos of bootstrapping robs KSU of the flexibility it needs to obtain the competitive advantage it could and should have. I mean, crap. Can you imagine what piece of stale toast is going to be our next football coach?
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Yeah, those are good points. I really don't disagree with anything you said.
BTW, I never said anything about not being able to win/recruit to Manhattan, KS. I agree that fans can be entitled, that's all I said. I meant it more as its our current sports culture everywhere, not just with our fans. If you were talking about me, you completely read something into my post that I didn't say at all.
:dunno:
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Yeah, those are good points. I really don't disagree with anything you said.
BTW, I never said anything about not being able to win/recruit to Manhattan, KS. I agree that fans can be entitled, that's all I said. I meant it more as its our current sports culture everywhere, not just with our fans. If you were talking about me, you completely read something into my post that I didn't say at all.
:dunno:
Ok, that's my fault then. I admittedly get annoyed as hell at the "can't recruit to MHK" meme that it seems that j rake's been peddling lately because it's utterly tired, so I read too much into your comment. My apologies.
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Yeah, those are good points. I really don't disagree with anything you said.
BTW, I never said anything about not being able to win/recruit to Manhattan, KS. I agree that fans can be entitled, that's all I said. I meant it more as its our current sports culture everywhere, not just with our fans. If you were talking about me, you completely read something into my post that I didn't say at all.
:dunno:
Our fans aren't entitled, though. Maybe at some other schools, but our fans are good, hardworking salt-of-the-earth types who just want to win a basketball national championship before they die and don't want oscar to be coach for 10% of their lifetime.
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Jesus. One bad season and some of the elites start re-accepting the "can't recruit to/win in Manhattan" meme as if Ames, Stillwater, and Waco don't rough ridin' exist.
Who is accepting that?
Good points. I agree that often the sense of entitlement is pretty ridiculous, but that's across the board for college sports.
Essentially j rake is saying that it's ridiculous to have a sense of entitlement (which translates to the belief that KSU should be in the top half of the Big 12 on a consistent basis) because we're poor little KSU stuck out in the middle of the nowhere of the plains. I argue that he vastly overestimates the role that geography plays in predicting future success.
Stillwater is even more isolated than MHK because of the lack of airport nearby, but they've built a consistently good program. Same with Morgantown. Waco is a complete shithole but they've bypassed us despite the Texas basketball talent pool not being nearly as deep as football. Ames is Ames, yet we all know what they've done. Kruger's built a consistent(ish) winner at OU despite their fanbase treating hoops only slightly better than Texas fans, and Norman has very little college town atmosphere to speak of. Tech and TCU should *always* be behind EMAW in hoops.
Brad Underwood's program, Stephen F. Austin, is 2.5 hours from any airport at all, yet he and Danny Kaspar have sustained a tradition of winning in a conference that has or once had Huntsville (close to Houston), San Marcos (within an hour of Austin and San Antonio, Hammond (close to New Orleans), and Conway (close to Little Rock). Meanwhile, Texas State, despite having one of the best budgets, recruiting bases, and college towns in the Southland/WAC/Sun Belt, has sucked complete ass since the late 90's because of terrible coaching and administrative support. I know Sun Belt =/ Big 12, but geography is not always the deciding factor in determining competitiveness. Coaching, winning tradition, administrative support/decision making for the program can also be incredibly important.
Outside of the lost 2 decades before Huggs, there's a solid tradition surrounding the EMAW program. The BTF is a fantastic facility and should be a major recruiting sell. MHK has an airport with flights to DFW and ORD. And, unlike OU/every single Texas school, the fans absolutely give a crap about the program. It's not *that* hard to turn EMAW hoops back around and put it in the top half of the Big 12 with the right coach. Sure, EMAW may have to get creative about it and do a Huggs/Sampson style hire and get someone who isn't scared of skirting NCAA rules/arbitrary shirt tuck standards of morality, but it can be done. That's why Currie's philosophy is such a problem, his obsession with doing things "the right way" and appealing to the gullible Midwestern ethos of bootstrapping robs KSU of the flexibility it needs to obtain the competitive advantage it could and should have. I mean, crap. Can you imagine what piece of stale toast is going to be our next football coach?
Word
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Nebraska would have had no trouble hiring Scott Frost or Jim Tressel. They just have too many fans with the same mindset you have, leading them to keep Bo for far too long and embrace the Riley hire.
well, tressel has a five-year show-cause, and frost interviewed for the tulsa job (and didn't get it), but if you say so.
again, i'm all for k-state fans having high expectations. but for now, k-state hoops is probably the 35th best job in the country, meaning the top 34 coaches...all things being equal...would probably prefer to be elsewhere; and the up-and-coming coaches with aspirations of becoming great coaches will likely use k-state as a stepping stone to better jobs in better locations.
the same is true for the rest of the Big 12 save Kansas and Texas. I mean literally every school has had successful coaches leave for greener pastures.
And I think you'll see fewer "stepping stone" moves from guys like Shaka Smart and Gregg Marshall and Archie Miller because rebuilding jobs are hard. (I think this would mean it would be more difficult for KSU to find an upgrade over oscar).
Also, good mid majors can now pay enough to make $$ a non factor. This is why letting oscar hang around is so dangerous, the lack of local talent and KU down the road make KSU a tougher job than most of the other football first P5 schools.
Once all the momentum Hugs started and Frank extended greater than anyone could of imagined is gone the only thing that distinguishes KSU from the Mississippi States, Nebraskas and Washington States of the world is that the fans do care. I was in school for all of the Asbury era and only the KU crowd would crack 10k (with hundreds of KU fans) and it was not uncommon to have 5k or less for a Sat. conference home game where a student could walk in at tip and find a spot 10 rows up at midcourt. I only went to a couple of Wooly games but it appeared slightly better than that and any time Wooly strung a stretch of play together they would get close to 10k for a Sat. conference home game. The talent on the floor was really not that much different between Asbury and Wooly but the fans hated Asbury and had checked out on the program after the 96-97 team completely flamed out.
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Yeah, those are good points. I really don't disagree with anything you said.
BTW, I never said anything about not being able to win/recruit to Manhattan, KS. I agree that fans can be entitled, that's all I said. I meant it more as its our current sports culture everywhere, not just with our fans. If you were talking about me, you completely read something into my post that I didn't say at all.
:dunno:
Our fans aren't entitled, though. Maybe at some other schools, but our fans are good, hardworking salt-of-the-earth types who just want to win a basketball national championship before they die and don't want oscar to be coach for 10% of their lifetime.
I'd say even the more zealtastic gE'ers here know that we likely won't ever surpass KU or Texas as a desirable basketball job because of tradition and location for those two programs, respectively. We just want a chance at a deep tournament run and the occasional conference title. If Iowa State can do that (and they have), why can't KSU?
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I'd say even the more zealtastic gE'ers here know that we likely won't ever surpass KU or Texas as a desirable basketball job because of tradition and location for those two programs, respectively. We just want a chance at a deep tournament run and the occasional conference title. If Iowa State can do that (and they have), why can't KSU?
We can. I don't think one bad season means we can't.
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trends, _FAN. were trending downward. what makes you think were going to get back to a tournament team with oscar weber as coach?
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I'd say even the more zealtastic gE'ers here know that we likely won't ever surpass KU or Texas as a desirable basketball job because of tradition and location for those two programs, respectively. We just want a chance at a deep tournament run and the occasional conference title. If Iowa State can do that (and they have), why can't KSU?
We can. I don't think one bad season means we can't.
Agreed. But I certainly don't think we can with oscar as coach, and j rake's premise is that we can't hire anyone better. I think we certainly could, we just won't until we have a different athletic director who isn't obsessed with being squeaky clean or Currie's hand is forced and he brings in Brad (who may or may not be better).
BTW--sidenote about Brad, he's been able to maintain and perhaps even improve on Kaspar's system in almost two years at SFA, while Kaspar has shown a little potential early in year two but has otherwise utterly struggled in San Marcos. So it's possible that Brad could be a very good hire.
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I'd say even the more zealtastic gE'ers here know that we likely won't ever surpass KU or Texas as a desirable basketball job because of tradition and location for those two programs, respectively. We just want a chance at a deep tournament run and the occasional conference title. If Iowa State can do that (and they have), why can't KSU?
We can. I don't think one bad season means we can't.
I could accept Oklahoma as a superior job to KSU but agree the other 6 are similar to worse. The Thunder have absolutely been a negative for OU and OSU but I don't think it will be that way forever, Ford and Capel have proved recruiting at a high level is possible both places.
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trends, _FAN. were trending downward. what makes you think were going to get back to a tournament team with oscar weber as coach?
History.
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trends, _FAN. were trending downward. what makes you think were going to get back to a tournament team with oscar weber as coach?
Because oscar hasn't had back to back non-NCAA teams since he was at SIU. I didn't consider last year a downward trend because we had a transition year (from Rodney to Marcus) and we weren't even really a bubble team, we were an NCAA lock at the end of the year.
Again, the problem is the ceiling for oscar. It could very well be consistent mid pack Big 12 teams with on again off again NCAA appearances as 7-10 seeds and then we have a problem. Plus, oscar is just a non-exciting whiny coach too often to be loved by fans.
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Because oscar hasn't had back to back non-NCAA teams since he was at SIU. I didn't consider last year a downward trend because we had a transition year (from Rodney to Marcus) and we weren't even really a bubble team, we were an NCAA lock at the end of the year.
fitting a trend to a group of data doesn't mean that there aren't other variables that explain those data points. the trend is descriptive, not explanatory.
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trends, _FAN. were trending downward. what makes you think were going to get back to a tournament team with oscar weber as coach?
History.
Wasn't it Jerrance's recruiting that gave oscar his "second wind"?
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Essentially j rake is saying that it's ridiculous to have a sense of entitlement (which translates to the belief that KSU should be in the top half of the Big 12 on a consistent basis) because we're poor little KSU stuck out in the middle of the nowhere of the plains. I argue that he vastly overestimates the role that geography plays in predicting future success.
Stillwater is even more isolated than MHK because of the lack of airport nearby, but they've built a consistently good program. Same with Morgantown. Waco is a complete shithole but they've bypassed us despite the Texas basketball talent pool not being nearly as deep as football. Ames is Ames, yet we all know what they've done. Kruger's built a consistent(ish) winner at OU despite their fanbase treating hoops only slightly better than Texas fans, and Norman has very little college town atmosphere to speak of. Tech and TCU should *always* be behind EMAW in hoops.
you might have missed what i've said in other threads, but i haven't dismissed the possibility of k-state having a good program and occasional (or even semi-frequent) success. what i've argued, and still maintain, is that k-state will be unable to have a consistent, sustained presence at the top half of the league. there are too many other better or similar programs.
just because k-state can't, doesn't mean that wvu can. or that okla state can. or that okla can. it just means that aside from ku (and arguably texas if barnes can ever get them back to where they were), you're likely to see lots of year-to-year shuffling among the rest of the league members.
year to year, wvu, okla, okla st, k-state, baylor, tcu, iowa st are all going to be interchangeable. when okla is senior heavy and has talent, they'll rise to top 3 in the league. when those players graduate, they'll fall to bottom 3 in the league while an upperclassmen heavy okla st team takes their place. when k-state has a loaded roster, they'll get near the top of the league, only to fall back down to the bottom half once they don't.
all of these teams are super similar, and will likely continue to be.
if oscar were to coach another 10 years at k-state, here's what i'd expect his league finishes to be:
5th, 4th, 7th, 8th, 2nd, 4th, 9th, 5th, 6th, 3rd.
i get the impression that the fan base expects or demands the following:
2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd.
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relevant link:
http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=22177.0
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DJamer would have had more impact on the defensive end than offense and he would have helped this team.
Definitely. Do you think he would have played with Gip and would have helped Gip on offense?
Yes. I don't think oscar is that dumb.
How does DJamer help Gip on offense exactly? I don't see it. I'm that dumb. It seems obvious to me he wouldn't.
Can't shoot, doesn't have post-moves. Must be in the paint. Him rebounding Gip's misses is helping Gip on offense? Is that it?
i literally can't think of a single time that a returning starter made another player better so nevermind, i just don't see it either let's /thread this /thread.
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trends, _FAN. were trending downward. what makes you think were going to get back to a tournament team with oscar weber as coach?
History.
Wasn't it Jerrance's recruiting that gave oscar his "second wind"?
The best team in his second wind wasn't Jerrance recruit dominated. His Jerrance recruits got him fired.
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relevant link:
http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=22177.0
those expectations were more realistic in the old big 12, where k-state could ride an easy schedule and steal some games against superior teams at home. in the big 12 of the present and the future, that's unlikely to happen.
those expectations are better for iowa state w/ hoiberg.
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i get the impression that the fan base expects or demands the following:
2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd.
you mean like Frank Martin's 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 5th finishes in his 5 seasons?
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DJamer would have had more impact on the defensive end than offense and he would have helped this team.
Definitely. Do you think he would have played with Gip and would have helped Gip on offense?
Yes. I don't think oscar is that dumb.
How does DJamer help Gip on offense exactly? I don't see it. I'm that dumb. It seems obvious to me he wouldn't.
Can't shoot, doesn't have post-moves. Must be in the paint. Him rebounding Gip's misses is helping Gip on offense? Is that it?
i literally can't think of a single time that a returning starter made another player better so nevermind, i just don't see it either let's /thread this /thread.
DJamer started at the end of last season? I do not recall that. If he did, then I agree that Gip would be much improved this year due to his having started before and now playing with Gip. You don't know that, you don't know hoops. #hoopsmaxims
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I call it the starter bump.
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i get the impression that the fan base expects or demands the following:
2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd.
you mean like Frank Martin's 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 5th finishes in his 5 seasons?
again, i'm fully aware of what's been done. but you're comparing two completely different leagues.
the big 12 of the present and the future is not the big 12 of the past.
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i get the impression that the fan base expects or demands the following:
2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd.
you mean like Frank Martin's 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 5th finishes in his 5 seasons?
again, i'm fully aware of what's been done. but now, you're comparing two completely different leagues.
the big 12 of the present and the future is not the big 12 of the past.
Yeah, it used to be harder to finish in the top 5 than it is now.
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i get the impression that the fan base expects or demands the following:
2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd.
you mean like Frank Martin's 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 5th finishes in his 5 seasons?
again, i'm fully aware of what's been done. but you're comparing two completely different leagues.
the big 12 of the present and the future is not the big 12 of the past.
i understand the the leagues are different. im pointing out that ksu hasnt finished in the bottom half of the big 12 in 7 years, there is a reason the fans expect to finish in the top half. we should be able to adapt with a changing league. its not crazy to think our expectations have been raised, and we shouldnt have to lower them because better teams joined the league.
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those expectations were more realistic in the old big 12.
you keep saying this, but there's little evidence to support it. going by conference kenpoms, this year is historically strong, but about on the same level as 2008 and 2010. the last couple of years were not among the strongest of the last decade. the last three years closely fit what was typical for the big 12 over the seven years previous to the membership change.
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Yeah, it used to be harder to finish in the top 5 than it is now.
frank's 2009-10 team, the one that finished tied for 2nd in the league with an 11-5 record, consisted of seven wins against the following:
Nebraska (90th best team)
Nebraska (90th)
Colorado (88th)
Colorado (88th)
Iowa St (74th)
Texas Tech (67th)
Oklahoma (111th)
this year, k-state has played exactly one team, texas tech (#168), rated as poorly as the teams listed above. frank's tenure largely featured wins against awful teams. you won't see much awful in the Big 12 of the present and the future, and you can't hide behind split scheduling anymore, either.
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i get the impression that the fan base expects or demands the following:
2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd.
you mean like Frank Martin's 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 5th finishes in his 5 seasons?
again, i'm fully aware of what's been done. but you're comparing two completely different leagues.
the big 12 of the present and the future is not the big 12 of the past.
I applaud your efforts to play devil's advocate right now but eff you are saying asinine crap attempting to do so. I have no idea how in the hell you think playing in a 10 team true round robin is harder for us to have respectable finishes than it was playing in a 12 team conference when we not only share the division but the state with the dominant team. There is no data that shows the south division was more difficult when we played in a 12 team conference.
Also that 30whatever best job is also total crap. You didn't need to correct the number because there's little to no difference between 17, 35, 48 on this stupid ass list. The difference is whatever bias the lister wants to emphasise to serve their pre-existing bias.
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frank's 2009-10 team, the one that finished tied for 2nd in the league with an 11-5 record, consisted of seven wins against the following:
Nebraska (90th best team)
Nebraska (90th)
Colorado (88th)
Colorado (88th)
Iowa St (74th)
Texas Tech (67th)
Oklahoma (111th)
this year, k-state has played exactly one team, texas tech (#168), rated as poorly as the teams listed above. frank's tenure largely featured wins against awful teams. you won't see much awful in the Big 12 of the present and the future, and you can't hide behind split scheduling anymore, either.
are you deliberately trying to mislead people? the 2010 team's strength of schedule was 0.7652, the current team's sos is 0.7133 (so far, it'll go up with the remaining games). that team went 29-8 against a more difficult schedule. more difficult. not easier.
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I can't believe some K-State basketball fans are claiming that K-State basketball fans are spoiled or expect too much.
I've watched K-State play on the second weekend of the tourney exactly ONE time since I was old enough to know what basketball is. ONE TIME. I don't expect that every year, or even expect down years not too happen. I was fine with 2008-09 based on the trajectory of the program. But right now as a fan I have no real hope other than stupid blind devotion to let me think I'll watch us play in a sweet 16, win a Dr. Pepper tourney, get a top 4 seed etc. I don't need or expect those things annually, all I want is hope that if things break right I can watch us cut down nets and play in a final four. I have no reason to hope that with the way the program is going. Honestly I could make a case for ANY other Big XII team (except Tech/TCU) to have hope for the future of their program to have a chance, just a chance, to be a final four team if things break right in the next few years.
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Yeah, it used to be harder to finish in the top 5 than it is now.
frank's 2009-10 team, the one that finished tied for 2nd in the league with an 11-5 record, consisted of seven wins against the following:
Nebraska (90th best team)
Nebraska (90th)
Colorado (88th)
Colorado (88th)
Iowa St (74th)
Texas Tech (67th)
Oklahoma (111th)
this year, k-state has played exactly one team, texas tech (#168), rated as poorly as the teams listed above. frank's tenure largely featured wins against awful teams. you won't see much awful in the Big 12 of the present and the future, and you can't hide behind split scheduling anymore, either.
Everyone else in the conference had the opportunity to play against those teams, too.
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I applaud your efforts to play devil's advocate right now but eff you are saying asinine crap attempting to do so. I have no idea how in the hell you think playing in a 10 team true round robin is harder for us to have respectable finishes than it was playing in a 12 team conference when we not only share the division but the state with the dominant team.
if any non-ku or iowa state big 12 team strings together four straight top-4 finishes from 2016 to 2019, i'll pick up the tab for fatty fest 2019.
if k-state does it, i'll lay down in the middle of aggieville and let you run me over with a bus until i'm dead.
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I applaud your efforts to play devil's advocate right now but eff you are saying asinine crap attempting to do so. I have no idea how in the hell you think playing in a 10 team true round robin is harder for us to have respectable finishes than it was playing in a 12 team conference when we not only share the division but the state with the dominant team.
if any non-ku or iowa state big 12 team strings together four straight top-4 finishes from 2016 to 2019, i'll pick up the tab for fatty fest 2019.
if k-state does it, i'll lay down in the middle of aggieville and let you run me over with a bus until i'm dead.
oh man oh man oh man I hope OU or someone finishes top 4 4 straight times before the '19FF
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if k-state does it, i'll lay down in the middle of aggieville and let you run me over with a bus until i'm dead.
i'll take this deal. but i'd like to use years 2-5 following weber's firing or retirement.
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If you lose a lot, then the teams you played against will appear stronger because you have added to their strength by being shitty.
If you win a lot, then the teams you played against will appear weaker because you have subtracted from their strength by not being shitty.
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I applaud your efforts to play devil's advocate right now but eff you are saying asinine crap attempting to do so. I have no idea how in the hell you think playing in a 10 team true round robin is harder for us to have respectable finishes than it was playing in a 12 team conference when we not only share the division but the state with the dominant team.
if any non-ku or iowa state big 12 team strings together four straight top-4 finishes from 2016 to 2019, i'll pick up the tab for fatty fest 2019.
if k-state does it, i'll lay down in the middle of aggieville and let you run me over with a bus until i'm dead.
:nono: you can't exclude ISU
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if k-state does it, i'll lay down in the middle of aggieville and let you run me over with a bus until i'm dead.
i'll take this deal. but i'd like to use years 2-5 following weber's firing or retirement.
you've got yourself a deal, but the bet is void if oscar pearl, kelvin sampson or anyone widely considered to be equal or greater than fred hoiberg takes the job.
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just what fattyfest needs, unlimited free booze instead of $1.50 bud daris'.
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J Rake really has a lot of contingencies going here.....
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:nono: you can't exclude ISU
if hoiberg coached k-state, i'd buy into the possibility of them finishing top 4 consistently every year.
the guy is just that good! :thumbs:
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J Rake really has a lot of contingencies going here.....
after all the baseless, senseless arguments i've made over the last three days, i could use the added insurance to help support my probably wrong, definitely terrible opinions. :frown:
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you've got yourself a deal, but the bet is void if oscar pearl, kelvin sampson or anyone widely considered to be equal or greater than fred hoiberg takes the job.
nope. deals a deal.
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hey guys, i may get to kill jrake! :Woot:
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hey guys, i may get to kill jrake! :Woot:
Need a Scott Drew version of this. :billdance:
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hey guys, i may get to kill jrake! :Woot:
the bonus is that because it's in writing on a message board, it will be 100% legal!
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I applaud your efforts to play devil's advocate right now but eff you are saying asinine crap attempting to do so. I have no idea how in the hell you think playing in a 10 team true round robin is harder for us to have respectable finishes than it was playing in a 12 team conference when we not only share the division but the state with the dominant team.
if any non-ku or iowa state big 12 team strings together four straight top-4 finishes from 2016 to 2019, i'll pick up the tab for fatty fest 2019.
if k-state does it, i'll lay down in the middle of aggieville and let you run me over with a bus until i'm dead.
While you're laying in the road can you explain why we excluded any team from that or why it's relevant to why the conference is harder or easier than it was 3 years ago?
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sherv.net%2Fcm%2Femoticons%2Ffighting%2Fsteamroller-crush-smiley-emoticon.gif&hash=80f388e286bf4ae0376fe00c5d906020de85454d)
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While you're laying in the road can you explain why we excluded any team from that or why it's relevant to why the conference is harder or easier than it was 3 years ago?
yes, but no promises, i'll probably be under a lot of stress.
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omg, remember when jrake excluded iowa state in his wager about perennial top 4 finishers in the big 12? :lol:
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omg, remember when jrake excluded iowa state in his wager about perennial top 4 finishers in the big 12? :lol:
2019 ChiCat sure will
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omg, remember when jrake excluded iowa state in his wager about perennial top 4 finishers in the big 12? :lol:
Yes, Iowa State and Kansas don't count, there's 20% of the conference excluded. TCU and TT are so bad that they don't factor at all so there's another 20%. WVU has yet to finish in the top 4 in the Big 12 and K-State is trending down so essentially the bet is, "OU, UT, OSU or Baylor won't finish in the top four, 4 years in a row." That bet takes courage, man rake is really laying it on the line with that one.
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Yes, Iowa State and Kansas don't count, there's 20% of the conference excluded. TCU and TT are so bad that they don't factor at all so there's another 20%. WVU has yet to finish in the top 4 in the Big 12 and K-State is trending down so essentially the bet is, "OU, UT, OSU or Baylor won't finish in the top four, 4 years in a row." That bet takes courage, man rake is really laying it on the line with that one.
i'll bet whatever you want (money, charity donation, etc) that "non-factor" tcu finishes tied or ahead of k-state in the league standings at least three of the next five years, and that texas tech does it at least twice.
please advise.
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i'll bet whatever you want (money, charity donation, etc) that "non-factor" tcu finishes tied or ahead of k-state in the league standings at least three of the next five years, and that texas tech does it at least twice.
let's just double down on your life.
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Yes, Iowa State and Kansas don't count, there's 20% of the conference excluded. TCU and TT are so bad that they don't factor at all so there's another 20%. WVU has yet to finish in the top 4 in the Big 12 and K-State is trending down so essentially the bet is, "OU, UT, OSU or Baylor won't finish in the top four, 4 years in a row." That bet takes courage, man rake is really laying it on the line with that one.
i'll bet whatever you want (money, charity donation, etc) that "non-factor" tcu finishes tied or ahead of k-state in the league standings at least three of the next five years, and that texas tech does it at least twice.
please advise.
Why the hell would I take that bet, what part of what I am posting leads you to believe that we don't blow? Again you are getting all twisted up in your talking points though as this does nothing to prove your theory,that you don't actually believe, that the Big 12 is now a harder conference than it was 3 years ago.
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Yeah, I can't disagree that maybe oscar has something going with the players where they do better when getting to sleep at home or something that is independent of the in-fOOD atmosphere.
Saturday could be a look into what next year's crowd could be like.
I just got the "this week in k-state" email.
K-State Men's Basketball Hosts Big Monday Showdown vs. #8 KU
K-State Men's Basketball hosts #8 KU at 8 pm tonight, in Bramlage Coliseum. Tickets to the game are still available - click here to purchase tickets. The game is Big Monday and will be broadcast nationally on ESPN.
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Why the hell would I take that bet, what part of what I am posting leads you to believe that we don't blow? Again you are getting all twisted up in your talking points though as this does nothing to prove your theory,that you don't actually believe, that the Big 12 is now a harder conference than it was 3 years ago.
we can disagree on the difficulty of the new big 12 compared to the old, but i'll still maintain that it's going to be much harder to sustain consistent success going forward given that the eight non ku and iowa state teams will be more or less interchangeable from one season to the next.
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Just look at what oscar is doing to you people :nono:
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rake, where do you rank oscar among Big 12 coaches?
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I don't think many people here know the history of rake.
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rake, where do you rank oscar among Big 12 coaches?
big 12 coaches ranked:
1. hoiberg
2. self
3. kruger
4. huggins
5. drew
6. johnson
7. barnes
8. tubby
9. weber
10. ford
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I don't think many people here know the history of rake.
did you see where i've entered into two contracts, either of which may give me the right to kill him in five years?
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I don't think many people here know the history of rake.
did you see where i've entered into two contracts, either of which may give me the right to kill him in five years?
I think when a contract incorporates something illegal it becomes invalid in whole. but I was barely awake for most of Kathy Seeberger's classes so maybe i'm wrong.
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the contact is also void if hoiberg wins a national title before k-state next makes the ncaa tourney.
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I think when a contract incorporates something illegal it becomes invalid in whole. but I was barely awake for most of Kathy Seeberger's classes so maybe i'm wrong.
there are a lot of lawyers here. if we need to leave the country or something before we execute the contract, i'm sure someone will let me know.
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the contact is also void if hoiberg wins a national title before k-state next makes the ncaa tourney.
obviously.
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Huggins had a 19 loss season two years ago.
Jay Wright lost 19 games in 2012.
Mike Brey went 15-17 last year.
Roy Williams had 17 losses in 2010. (16-16 regular season)
Billy Donovan is 13-14 this year.
So yeah.
all of those coaches have made the elite 8 with the schools they are at now except brey who has made the sweet 16. 2 have national championships.
they have earned a bad season. oscar has not.
Welp, the final 4 at IU doesn't count. Or for the matter the first Big 12 Championship in 44 years. What a rough ridin' loser... now who would I be talking about. :facepalm:
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rake, where do you rank oscar among Big 12 coaches?
big 12 coaches ranked:
1. hoiberg
2. self
3. kruger
4. huggins
5. drew
6. johnson
7. barnes
8. tubby
9. weber
10. ford
So what's the risk of firing Weber this year?
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I applaud your efforts to play devil's advocate right now but eff you are saying asinine crap attempting to do so. I have no idea how in the hell you think playing in a 10 team true round robin is harder for us to have respectable finishes than it was playing in a 12 team conference when we not only share the division but the state with the dominant team.
if any non-ku or iowa state big 12 team strings together four straight top-4 finishes from 2016 to 2019, i'll pick up the tab for fatty fest 2019.
if k-state does it, i'll lay down in the middle of aggieville and let you run me over with a bus until i'm dead.
can someone provide an estimated cost and let me know where to send? thanks.
@GoodmanESPN
VCU coach Shaka Smart has an 8 pm team meeting scheduled, sources told ESPN.
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I applaud your efforts to play devil's advocate right now but eff you are saying asinine crap attempting to do so. I have no idea how in the hell you think playing in a 10 team true round robin is harder for us to have respectable finishes than it was playing in a 12 team conference when we not only share the division but the state with the dominant team.
if any non-ku or iowa state big 12 team strings together four straight top-4 finishes from 2016 to 2019, i'll pick up the tab for fatty fest 2019.
if k-state does it, i'll lay down in the middle of aggieville and let you run me over with a bus until i'm dead.
can someone provide an estimated cost and let me know where to send? thanks.
@GoodmanESPN
VCU coach Shaka Smart has an 8 pm team meeting scheduled, sources told ESPN.
don't worry about it, you couldn't afford it anyway.