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General Discussion => The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit => Topic started by: sonofdaxjones on September 30, 2014, 06:19:05 AM

Title: Corn?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on September 30, 2014, 06:19:05 AM
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2014/sep/27/ogallala-water-continues-pore-farm-fields-despite-/

Is corn the issue?

On a related note, I read an article in Pheasants Forever about Iowa.  Apparently as the new farm bill floundered around in Congress and CRP contracts ran out.   Bolstered by corn prices many farmers in Iowa (and probably elsewhere) put thousands of acres of marginal land into production, which in turn impacted the pheasant population dramatically (and the loss of pheasant habitat also means the loss of habitat for many other species of wildlife). 

It's criminal IMO how corn has been given the place its been given by our government, lobbyists, ag etc. etc.  There's simply no reason why the United States shouldn't be on a screaming train towards hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and things of that ilk.   

It is also interesting to me that the Mississippi and its tributaries run through the corn belt and that the summer "dead zone" in the Gulf is growing.  While I admit I haven't done the research, but it just seems like that the Gulf dead zone growth has come since corn production has skyrocketed.

Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on September 30, 2014, 06:23:16 AM
I love it on the cob. Also I love "popped" corn.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: CNS on September 30, 2014, 07:51:44 AM
Corn is super played out, imo.  Grow enough for my tortillas and put the rest in some other rotation crop, or something.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: OK_Cat on September 30, 2014, 08:44:49 AM
I like cream corn
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on September 30, 2014, 08:49:05 AM
The Ogallala water has no identified use other than agriculture, so unless somebody can find a better economic use of the water, I don't really see any issue with farmers growing corn with it, especially when the prices are as outrageous as they were a year or two ago.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on September 30, 2014, 09:07:49 AM
Mods, please change thread title to "ethanol."

Green energy is all about making poors poorer. Who do you think bears the brunt of higher fuel and food prices the most?
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Emo EMAW on September 30, 2014, 09:48:09 AM
The Ogallala water has no identified use other than agriculture, so unless somebody can find a better economic use of the water, I don't really see any issue with farmers growing corn with it, especially when the prices are as outrageous as they were a year or two ago.

I don't think people are opposed to the use of the water for agriculture.  It's about how much, when, and for what. 
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: steve dave on September 30, 2014, 10:05:58 AM
they don't even water the corn here. it just grows out there. very  :sdeek: to see as a sw kansan cow farm kid.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: _33 on September 30, 2014, 10:12:07 AM
I like cream corn

blech.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Emo EMAW on September 30, 2014, 11:26:03 AM
they don't even water the corn here. it just grows out there. very  :sdeek: to see as a sw kansan cow farm kid.

(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsnr.unl.edu%2Fcsd-esic%2FGWMapArchives%2F2007GWMaps%2FIrrWellDensity.jpg&hash=a759616eda1b39933c53d501d645ab62dc59dfb3)
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: slobber on September 30, 2014, 11:57:33 AM

they don't even water the corn here. it just grows out there. very  :sdeek: to see as a sw kansan cow farm kid.

(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsnr.unl.edu%2Fcsd-esic%2FGWMapArchives%2F2007GWMaps%2FIrrWellDensity.jpg&hash=a759616eda1b39933c53d501d645ab62dc59dfb3)
Great find. Do KS.


Gonna win 'em all!
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: EMAWican on September 30, 2014, 12:52:10 PM
Corn or blaming any other crop is not the issue.  The water usage is the issue, whether it's for farming, drinking, pumping on a golf course, or into the City pool.  Corn is the symptom, not the cause.  As a farmer you can make more money raising a failed corn crop than other typical crops (wheat, beans, milo, hay, etc.).  Corn insurance and subsidies are the highest out of all the typical Kansas crops.  Irrigated ground is completely different than the eastern/central Kansas dryland.

Each registered groundwater well has a water appropriation, or what amount of water you can pump/use per year.  This appropriation never changes and is set from the initial water right.  Your appropriation is based on the calendar year and does not carry over.  What incentive does anyone have to conserve water?  You use it or lose it.  As the water table declines, farmers have wells that could support a decent crop and make them decent profit start to struggle to support more drought tolerant crops (wheat, milo, etc.).  To be more profitable, farmers plant "irrigated" corn for insurance, use the crap out of their appropriation, and then get drought subsidies.  $$$  You can't blame them for following the system that's in place.

Use it until you lose it.  Problem solved. 
 
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: OK_Cat on September 30, 2014, 12:56:03 PM
So you're saying Orville Redenbacher was a nazi
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: EMAWican on September 30, 2014, 01:29:26 PM
Oh, and for you young GEers out there that want to be even more :kstategrad:  go into water law because there's going to be an absolute crapton of groundwater right infringement cases in the next couple years. 
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: star seed 7 on September 30, 2014, 09:35:28 PM
Water law sounds fascinating  :Ugh:
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: CNS on September 30, 2014, 09:39:11 PM
Sounds like a bunch of hayseeds mad at each other to me.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on September 30, 2014, 10:35:19 PM
My dad is a corn rancher (OMG lol), he called me to tell me he made a pot of gold growing corn and watering it a ton and then not selling and getting farm subsidies for it instead. THE KICKER all his corn keeps on growing and when it gets double tall he gonna harvest it and make double monies (plus the pot of gold subsidies). I was all like this story is totes boring, but thought I'd share to see what you guys think.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Tobias on September 30, 2014, 10:36:34 PM
one taco
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on September 30, 2014, 11:27:58 PM
My dad is a corn rancher (OMG lol), he called me to tell me he made a pot of gold growing corn and watering it a ton and then not selling and getting farm subsidies for it instead. THE KICKER all his corn keeps on growing and when it gets double tall he gonna harvest it and make double monies (plus the pot of gold subsidies). I was all like this story is totes boring, but thought I'd share to see what you guys think.

Your dad sounds like a typical welfare recipient.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on September 30, 2014, 11:33:12 PM
My dad is a corn rancher (OMG lol), he called me to tell me he made a pot of gold growing corn and watering it a ton and then not selling and getting farm subsidies for it instead. THE KICKER all his corn keeps on growing and when it gets double tall he gonna harvest it and make double monies (plus the pot of gold subsidies). I was all like this story is totes boring, but thought I'd share to see what you guys think.

Your dad sounds like a typical welfare recipient.

What's your problem, bad person?
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on October 01, 2014, 12:04:52 PM
Whelp, it sounds like American Agriculture is just as effed up as it was during my short stint working for the FCIC (USDA) many moons ago.   Sounds like a long term solution is a long way off.

Yep, the 2 trillion dollar industry surely wouldn't exist without the 40 billion dollars in conservation subsidies.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on October 01, 2014, 12:28:27 PM
Sorry,  that's 20 billion in subsidies.  About 1/3 of the identified fraud in medicare alone.  300 trillion in welfare entitlements doled out a year, and the libtards think AG subsidies are criminal.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: renocat on October 01, 2014, 05:34:30 PM
Demographics soon may shape farming for the future.  With the average age of farmers being 57, in a few years there will not be many family farms left.  Young people can’t afford to go into farming even with good crop prices and subsidies.   The cost of machinery and land are out of sight.  Koch, Conagra, Tyson and others will step into the void and we will have corporate farming or people farming for them on a contract basis.  These corporations will stick it to the public good as their goal is to make as much money as they can.  We need to keep farming in private hands and figure a way to get young people back into the industry.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: CNS on October 01, 2014, 07:04:41 PM
Seems like even fam farmers are trying to get  as much money as they can. :dunno:

I mean, if not, this may be part of the problem.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: michigancat on October 01, 2014, 07:18:30 PM
family farming has been a giant welfare program for white people since white people got here, (and let's be honest, "family farmers" are all about making as much money as they can). so there's fewer family farms and more "corporate farms". Boo hoo, go get a real job without inheriting land the government gave to your family.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: _33 on October 01, 2014, 08:22:48 PM
But seriously cream corn is awful.  It just spreads out all over your plate and gets into all your other food.  More like corn soup.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: 06wildcat on October 01, 2014, 09:59:07 PM
I suppose there are a few small farms out there not in some sort of corporate structure. Don't know of anyone who has more than a hundred acres that doesn't at least have the land in an llc tho.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on October 01, 2014, 10:25:33 PM
Corporate farming is illegal in like 41 states, including kansas.  If farming was a fool proof way to get rich, there'd be a bunch of hicks working at Goldman sachs and a bunch of Jewish guys farming.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: 06wildcat on October 02, 2014, 12:01:31 AM
Corporate farming is illegal in like 41 states, including kansas.  If farming was a fool proof way to get rich, there'd be a bunch of hicks working at Goldman sachs and a bunch of Jewish guys farming.

Corporate farming is restricted in 9 states, including Kansas. There are about 20 exemptions to corporate farms in Kansas law. Nothing in the law prohibits "family farms" from adopting corporate structures either, there's just residency requirements for agricultural corps, llcs etc.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: star seed 7 on October 02, 2014, 08:29:38 AM
Agites  :love:
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: slobber on October 02, 2014, 08:58:34 AM
A few people with ties to Ag have a boatload of money. OH NO!!!!


Gonna win 'em all!
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 02, 2014, 09:04:02 AM
I think the wealthy farmers get that way by owning massive amounts of ag land and being pretty good at farming it. The returns, percentage-wise, on farming usually aren't all that great, and without the government subsidies, the risk would be very high. The subsidies minimize risk, which basically ensures success, so if you are a big farmer, you will get rich, but without them, farming would be a lot more difficult.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: CNS on October 02, 2014, 09:14:35 AM
How many white cows would I have to pack on to the 20 acres, I have access to, in order to get a boat like that next year?  I am pretty close to pulling the trigger and just want to make sure I don't miss the boat.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: michigancat on October 02, 2014, 10:37:33 AM
I have no problem with farmers doing OK for themselves, I have a problem with them complaining about government handouts. I also never said it was a way to get rich, just that the entire foundation of American agriculture is a giant entitlement program that continues to this day.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: EMAWican on October 02, 2014, 11:00:17 AM
Jesus Christo.  What on earth.  The reason that "family" farms complain about handouts is because of sky-rocketing input costs and things that they don't have any control over.  Everyone here has complained about food costs, gas costs, beer costs, etc. or something they don't have control over. I don't agree with farmers pissing and moaning and a lot of them sure have a sense of entitlement, but if the system is in place of course everyone in their right mind will complain as their profit margins decrease.  Working class people would do the same thing if they had a paycut some years.  When's the last time any of you "non-farmers" paid a $30,000/month fuel bill or had to drop $250,000 for a piece of equipment? Or how about being -$50,000 on a circle of corn before you even see a plant grow?  Maybe $10,000 per month in equipment parts?  That $250 HVAC bill doesn't so bad.

There's one thing that you'll pick up with on a lot of farmers.  They're used to having loans, so just because they have the nicest speed boat, truck, etc. doesn't mean it's paid for. 
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: michigancat on October 02, 2014, 11:16:13 AM
Jesus Christo.  What on earth.  The reason that "family" farms complain about handouts is because of sky-rocketing input costs and things that they don't have any control over.  Everyone here has complained about food costs, gas costs, beer costs, etc. or something they don't have control over. I don't agree with farmers pissing and moaning and a lot of them sure have a sense of entitlement, but if the system is in place of course everyone in their right mind will complain as their profit margins decrease.  Working class people would do the same thing if they had a paycut some years.  When's the last time any of you "non-farmers" paid a $30,000/month fuel bill or had to drop $250,000 for a piece of equipment? Or how about being -$50,000 on a circle of corn before you even see a plant grow?  Maybe $10,000 per month in equipment parts?  That $250 HVAC bill doesn't so bad.

There's one thing that you'll pick up with on a lot of farmers.  They're used to having loans, so just because they have the nicest speed boat, truck, etc. doesn't mean it's paid for. 

I'm referring to farmers that complain about handouts for other people, especially poor people. It's incredibly hypocritical.

But honestly, with the government subsidizing crop insurance, it's really hard to lose money as a farmer today. Plus the reduction of the number of farms leads to larger, more efficient operations (and higher profit margins) for those that choose to remain.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: star seed 7 on October 02, 2014, 11:31:41 AM
There are costs related to running a business? What in the world is going on in this country?
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: EMAWican on October 02, 2014, 11:34:25 AM
There are costs related to running a business? What in the world is going on in this country?

They can raise the price of their good or service to offset those costs?  What is this, socialism? 
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: EMAWican on October 02, 2014, 11:39:11 AM
Jesus Christo.  What on earth.  The reason that "family" farms complain about handouts is because of sky-rocketing input costs and things that they don't have any control over.  Everyone here has complained about food costs, gas costs, beer costs, etc. or something they don't have control over. I don't agree with farmers pissing and moaning and a lot of them sure have a sense of entitlement, but if the system is in place of course everyone in their right mind will complain as their profit margins decrease.  Working class people would do the same thing if they had a paycut some years.  When's the last time any of you "non-farmers" paid a $30,000/month fuel bill or had to drop $250,000 for a piece of equipment? Or how about being -$50,000 on a circle of corn before you even see a plant grow?  Maybe $10,000 per month in equipment parts?  That $250 HVAC bill doesn't so bad.

There's one thing that you'll pick up with on a lot of farmers.  They're used to having loans, so just because they have the nicest speed boat, truck, etc. doesn't mean it's paid for. 

I'm referring to farmers that complain about handouts for other people, especially poor people. It's incredibly hypocritical.

But honestly, with the government subsidizing crop insurance, it's really hard to lose money as a farmer today. Plus the reduction of the number of farms leads to larger, more efficient operations (and higher profit margins) for those that choose to remain.

The same can be said for oil employees, bank workers, people who have 401ks/stocks/bonds, student loans, anyone that pays taxes, on and on.  Everyone is a hypocrite.   

Sounds like someone is just buddy buddy with a bunch of farm folks on the FaceBook. 
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: michigancat on October 02, 2014, 11:42:53 AM
There are costs related to running a business? What in the world is going on in this country?

They can raise the price of their good or service to offset those costs?  What is this, socialism? 

Every business is at the mercy of the commodity markets.

Jesus Christo.  What on earth.  The reason that "family" farms complain about handouts is because of sky-rocketing input costs and things that they don't have any control over.  Everyone here has complained about food costs, gas costs, beer costs, etc. or something they don't have control over. I don't agree with farmers pissing and moaning and a lot of them sure have a sense of entitlement, but if the system is in place of course everyone in their right mind will complain as their profit margins decrease.  Working class people would do the same thing if they had a paycut some years.  When's the last time any of you "non-farmers" paid a $30,000/month fuel bill or had to drop $250,000 for a piece of equipment? Or how about being -$50,000 on a circle of corn before you even see a plant grow?  Maybe $10,000 per month in equipment parts?  That $250 HVAC bill doesn't so bad.

There's one thing that you'll pick up with on a lot of farmers.  They're used to having loans, so just because they have the nicest speed boat, truck, etc. doesn't mean it's paid for. 

I'm referring to farmers that complain about handouts for other people, especially poor people. It's incredibly hypocritical.

But honestly, with the government subsidizing crop insurance, it's really hard to lose money as a farmer today. Plus the reduction of the number of farms leads to larger, more efficient operations (and higher profit margins) for those that choose to remain.

The same can be said for oil employees, bank workers, people who have 401ks/stocks/bonds, student loans, anyone that pays taxes, on and on.  Everyone is a hypocrite.   

Well, it's actually just wealthy people that complain about poor people receiving entitlements, but you're pretty much correct.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: steve dave on October 02, 2014, 01:02:32 PM

Demographics soon may shape farming for the future.  With the average age of farmers being 57, in a few years there will not be many family farms left.  Young people can’t afford to go into farming even with good crop prices and subsidies.   The cost of machinery and land are out of sight.  Koch, Conagra, Tyson and others will step into the void and we will have corporate farming or people farming for them on a contract basis.  These corporations will stick it to the public good as their goal is to make as much money as they can.  We need to keep farming in private hands and figure a way to get young people back into the industry.

Except young people can def. afford to go into farming. sdbro2 graduated from KState in cow farming and then bought a shitload of land on a subsidized gov loan and bought new sprinkler systems and a used tractor and has an operating note at essentially no interest. SW ks land is cheap as crap but there are amazing programs for anyone young that wants to do it. The problem isn't that they can't afford to it's that they don't want to.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: OK_Cat on October 02, 2014, 01:06:33 PM
_33 is full of crap.

Cream corn is second only to popcorn in the corn family
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on October 02, 2014, 01:32:36 PM
Two points:

1. Everyone is subsidized in one way shape of from by the federal govt. Its largess is systemically intertwined in everything we do. The fed had been using the tax code to socially engineer behavior since there was an income tax code.

2. It's not hypocritical for farmers to complain about handouts for poors, because poors don't produce anything other than more poors.  They just get stuff for being alive. A farmer produces food and fuel and it's a really rough ridin' risky venture despite what the troglodytes on this board have been told by the Huffington post.  Crop insurance does not make it a risk free endeavor, it makes it a one bad year doesn't cost you all of your accumulated wealth endeavor.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: michigancat on October 02, 2014, 01:43:27 PM
Two points:

1. Everyone is subsidized in one way shape of from by the federal govt. Its largess is systemically intertwined in everything we do. The fed had been using the tax code to socially engineer behavior since there was an income tax code.

The Homestead act was a far more lucrative subsidy than just about any other.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: michigancat on October 02, 2014, 01:52:39 PM
And who do you think buys the food the farmers produce? Poor people on government assistance. I mean food stamps are a dept. of Ag program
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Emo EMAW on October 02, 2014, 03:24:53 PM
Two points:

1. Everyone is subsidized in one way shape of from by the federal govt. Its largess is systemically intertwined in everything we do. The fed had been using the tax code to socially engineer behavior since there was an income tax code.

The Homestead act was a far more lucrative subsidy than just about any other.

60 percent of homesteads failed, though.  And the land was cheap, not even 2x the fed's annual budget. 
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: michigancat on October 02, 2014, 03:31:10 PM
Two points:

1. Everyone is subsidized in one way shape of from by the federal govt. Its largess is systemically intertwined in everything we do. The fed had been using the tax code to socially engineer behavior since there was an income tax code.

The Homestead act was a far more lucrative subsidy than just about any other.

60 percent of homesteads failed, though.  And the land was cheap, not even 2x the fed's annual budget. 

ok I guess giving away free land isn't more lucrative that goddam food stamps
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Emo EMAW on October 02, 2014, 03:39:22 PM
Two points:

1. Everyone is subsidized in one way shape of from by the federal govt. Its largess is systemically intertwined in everything we do. The fed had been using the tax code to socially engineer behavior since there was an income tax code.

The Homestead act was a far more lucrative subsidy than just about any other.

60 percent of homesteads failed, though.  And the land was cheap, not even 2x the fed's annual budget. 

ok I guess giving away free land isn't more lucrative that goddam food stamps

It took hard work to turn the free land into something lucrative.  It wasn't lucrative on its own. 
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: michigancat on October 02, 2014, 03:48:04 PM
Two points:

1. Everyone is subsidized in one way shape of from by the federal govt. Its largess is systemically intertwined in everything we do. The fed had been using the tax code to socially engineer behavior since there was an income tax code.

The Homestead act was a far more lucrative subsidy than just about any other.

60 percent of homesteads failed, though.  And the land was cheap, not even 2x the fed's annual budget. 

ok I guess giving away free land isn't more lucrative that goddam food stamps

It took hard work to turn the free land into something lucrative.  It wasn't lucrative on its own. 

yeah that still is an incredibly lucrative government handout (that wasn't available to blacks)
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Emo EMAW on October 02, 2014, 03:49:26 PM
Two points:

1. Everyone is subsidized in one way shape of from by the federal govt. Its largess is systemically intertwined in everything we do. The fed had been using the tax code to socially engineer behavior since there was an income tax code.

The Homestead act was a far more lucrative subsidy than just about any other.

60 percent of homesteads failed, though.  And the land was cheap, not even 2x the fed's annual budget. 

ok I guess giving away free land isn't more lucrative that goddam food stamps

It took hard work to turn the free land into something lucrative.  It wasn't lucrative on its own. 

yeah that still is an incredibly lucrative government handout (that wasn't available to blacks)

The blacks were able to get their Bankhead-Jones on tho!  :Woot:
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 02, 2014, 04:23:27 PM
The homestead act wasn't lucrative at all, really. The government had to dupe people into believing that they were moving into a railroad town to get people to take that free land in many cases. It was a direct ticket to poverty for the most part. The ancestors of the original settlers are definitely reaping the benefits of it, though.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: puniraptor on October 02, 2014, 04:24:35 PM
But seriously cream corn is awful.  It just spreads out all over your plate and gets into all your other food.  More like corn soup.

canned cream corn maybe. BUT LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT HOME COOKIN DELICIOUS CREAMED CORN
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: star seed 7 on October 02, 2014, 05:18:37 PM
Creamed corn is disturbing, now stop talking about it
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on October 02, 2014, 05:20:06 PM
The homestead act is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Stop being a dumbass.

If you want to talk about tangential crap, talk about people who made a fortune by being stupid and subsidized, talk about every Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) in So Cal who bought a house in 1990 with no expectation of owning anything other than a home, who watched it increase in value by a multiple of 10, who then decided they were a real estate investor and cashed out the equity to buy whatever (bigger house, more house, mercedes, motor cycle, boat), who defaulted on their mortgage in 2008 and then got a hamp mod so they could keep their house and got to keep all the stupid crap they bought.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on October 02, 2014, 05:22:11 PM
And who do you think buys the food the farmers produce? Poor people on government assistance. I mean food stamps are a dept. of Ag program

Hi demand, my name is supply, have we met?  I'm pretty someone in here has already pointed out input costs, as well.
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: renocat on October 02, 2014, 05:23:18 PM
A dark shadow from DC falls over corn country!

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Corn?
Post by: steve dave on October 02, 2014, 07:00:00 PM
lol