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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Football => Topic started by: kso_FAN on November 23, 2013, 03:42:57 PM
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One again Stoops showed up his old boss in a number of ways.
1st, key offensive sequences.
1. The asinine Hubert Wildcat.
2. Waters' overthrow of Lockett on drive 2.
3. 1st drive of 2nd half, wind at our back, drive inside the 30 and 2 straight runs leading to FG.
4. Another 3 and out from inside the 5 on 3 straight pass calls all down the field.
5. The pick 6.
Needed more mix of Sams, should have been a plan to start with him if we lost the wind/toss. Clearly the game plan was throw to win with the wind, but a more diverse running game with Sams against the wind should have been in place. Instead we got Hubert/wildcat.
All that said, the key to the game was OU's offensive line completely dominating our front 7. They mixed the pass in well and Hayes tried about every blitz possible as the game went along, but once they established the line of scrimmage we needed perfect offense and special teams to win this game.
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24 rushing yards offends me.
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i lol'd @ the wildcat sequence. i mean good grief.
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The really awful thing about the hubert sequence is we were bailed out of it by the delay of game, but then the coaches somehow decided it was just as great a play call on 1st and 15. In the crowd, I heard Bill "outsmarted" himself. I think that's accurate here.
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Bill always outsmarts himself. He probably spent a ton of time scheming the Wildcat this week when he wasn't busy writing love notes for PR
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Sams not playing more was also unfortunate. There were a few situations he was needed, both tactically and to give us some swagger back.
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The really awful thing about the hubert sequence is we were bailed out of it by the delay of game, but then the coaches somehow decided it was just as great a play call on 1st and 15. In the crowd, I heard Bill "outsmarted" himself. I think that's accurate here.
Getting the delay was just as bad. We have Hubert in the wildcat, something he hasn't done often at all. The formation was set with plenty of time on the play clock, but then we have him adjust the fullbacks alignment and sent Thompson in motion while he looked oblivious to the play call, which is not unexpected since he is not a QB. They should have just put Sams on the field with Waters if they wanted to do that.
And a long FENCE post on the QBs (do with it what you want):
Waters clearly isn't a great runner because he has no burst and he can't make anyone miss. His speed is okay if he has time to get going and get into the open field as he's shown several times, but that's about it. His biggest struggle throwing is short/intermediate routes to the sideline because his tendency to throw high on those routes. I think its silly to knock him because not every deep ball is perfectly thrown and to give all the credit to the receivers. Yes, he clearly has a great receiver (probably K-State's best ever) and a couple other really good ones, but Waters does a great job of a) being patient with long developing routes, b) reading defenses to see when routes are open and c) putting the ball into spots for his receivers to make plays on down the field throws. I do not believe just average quarterbacks can do that as well as Waters has. I think its a decent skill that many take for granted.
Sams is also limited. He's a dynamic runner because of his strengths that Waters does not have; namely incredible quickness, burst, and ability to make tacklers miss. He's shown to be a very good thrower of short and intermediate routes and I really like the passion and energy he brings to the team when he's on the field. All are great skills, but I don't think he's shown the ability to put the ball into spots like Waters has on down the field throws to Lockett/Thompson. I also don't think he's patient in the pocket nor do I think he makes the reads to get those down the field throws. I know he hasn't played much the last 3 games, but I think the season as a whole (and the lack of those types of double move/longer developing pass plays when he plays) has shown that he's not there yet with this faze of the offense.
As a result I think the staff struggles with when/where to use each, and I don't think they've done a great job of diversifying the offense for Sams. Its come to the point were over half his plays are going to be QB lead/power runs and that isn't going to allow him to be successful. I don't know why the staff has chosen to limit both his playing time and the offense he run, but that is a problem. I think the staff gets stuck on that ability to get the ball to Lockett (and Thompson to a degree) and that shows up in games, but I also think that Snyder's running game in nearly each season that he's been back has generally gotten worse as the season goes along. That could be part of the reason they seem to be going back to the passing game.
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I've given Waters plenty of credit for his deep throws. Like I keep repeating, he's much better at that than Sams, while Sams is much better at everything else.
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That horse collar tackle that saved a touchdown on Lockett followed up with the pick six crushed me. You win stoops.
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That horse collar tackle that saved a touchdown on Lockett followed up with the pick six crushed me. You win stoops.
Yeah, I thought Lockett had it. 440 yards of total offense is just ridiculous.
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I think its silly to knock him because not every deep ball is perfectly thrown and to give all the credit to the receivers.
However
It is not silly to knock Sams for missing his one or two deep opportunities he's had to Lockett or Thompson all year.
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I think its silly to knock him because not every deep ball is perfectly thrown and to give all the credit to the receivers.
However
It is not silly to knock Sams for missing his one or two deep opportunities he's had to Lockett or Thompson all year.
That's dumb too. If I did that too much, I was wrong.
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Waters also does a great job of throwing to players who aren't even close to being open.
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I think its silly to knock him because not every deep ball is perfectly thrown and to give all the credit to the receivers.
However
It is not silly to knock Sams for missing his one or two deep opportunities he's had to Lockett or Thompson all year.
Meh. It's a fair-ish to criticism.
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ksu_FAN thinks Snyder is a good coach.
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ksu_FAN thinks Snyder is a good coach.
Nobody has argued that. It is idiots that argue that a good coach cannot be questioned that really piss me off. At least that is my position. I shouldn't try to speak for anyone else. gE is pretty sensitive lately...oscar's fault, but the prescription for that is more cowbell (LBSU).
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God I hate Bill sometimes. Just got clownsuited by Bob, again.
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I think ksu_fan has got a good point about how the coaches use Sams. It would have been a different game, if they would let Sams pass short swing and over the middle passes. They stacked the box the same a Texas did. To have him play wildcat or run first is stupid when it was obvious they were prepared for that. :th_twocents:
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one of the things i hate most about waters is that when i see a linebacker walk up to the line on 3rd and more than 4, i automatically know it's going to be a sack. he has no ability to quickly get rid of the ball, or feel pressure. combine that with his fainting goat/run straight to the defender run game and inability to throw even the simplest of short routes... it's just rough ridin' mind blowing that this idiot is our starting quarterback.
there is zero reason for him to play a single rough ridin' snap the entire season.
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one of the things i hate most about waters is that when i see a linebacker walk up to the line on 3rd and more than 4, i automatically know it's going to be a sack. he has no ability to quickly get rid of the ball, or feel pressure. combine that with his fainting goat/run straight to the defender run game and inability to throw even the simplest of short routes... it's just rough ridin' mind blowing that this idiot is our starting quarterback.
there is zero reason for him to play a single rough ridin' snap the entire season.
+1,0000000000x1,00000000000 :thumbs:
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ksu_FAN thinks Snyder is a good coach.
Yes I do, but like you and I, he is not above reproach.
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ksu_FAN thinks Snyder is a good coach.
Yes I do, but like you and I, he is not above reproach.
Reproach? Is that like sneaking up on him and kicking him in the ass, cause that's how I felt.
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one of the things i hate most about waters is that when i see a linebacker walk up to the line on 3rd and more than 4, i automatically know it's going to be a sack. he has no ability to quickly get rid of the ball, or feel pressure. combine that with his fainting goat/run straight to the defender run game and inability to throw even the simplest of short routes... it's just rough ridin' mind blowing that this idiot is our starting quarterback.
there is zero reason for him to play a single rough ridin' snap the entire season.
I think some of that is due to the routes we are running vs the defense we get in those situations. We like to blitz and play 40 ds off the receivers, whereas every other team in the country will press so that there aren't easy throws to be had.
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one of the things i hate most about waters is that when i see a linebacker walk up to the line on 3rd and more than 4, i automatically know it's going to be a sack. he has no ability to quickly get rid of the ball, or feel pressure. combine that with his fainting goat/run straight to the defender run game and inability to throw even the simplest of short routes... it's just rough ridin' mind blowing that this idiot is our starting quarterback.
there is zero reason for him to play a single rough ridin' snap the entire season.
I think some of that is due to the routes we are running vs the defense we get in those situations. We like to blitz and play 40 ds off the receivers, whereas every other team in the country will press so that there aren't easy throws to be had.
No, the problem is only Waters. The only reason anything good happens when he's in the game is he just throws the ball up and Lockett bails him out. There is no other logical reason that he does anything well on the field.
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one of the things i hate most about waters is that when i see a linebacker walk up to the line on 3rd and more than 4, i automatically know it's going to be a sack. he has no ability to quickly get rid of the ball, or feel pressure. combine that with his fainting goat/run straight to the defender run game and inability to throw even the simplest of short routes... it's just rough ridin' mind blowing that this idiot is our starting quarterback.
there is zero reason for him to play a single rough ridin' snap the entire season.
I think some of that is due to the routes we are running vs the defense we get in those situations. We like to blitz and play 40 ds off the receivers, whereas every other team in the country will press so that there aren't easy throws to be had.
No, the problem is only Waters. The only reason anything good happens when he's in the game is he just throws the ball up and Lockett bails him out. There is no other logical reason that he does anything well on the field.
see! _FAN finally sees the light! :D
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one of the things i hate most about waters is that when i see a linebacker walk up to the line on 3rd and more than 4, i automatically know it's going to be a sack. he has no ability to quickly get rid of the ball, or feel pressure. combine that with his fainting goat/run straight to the defender run game and inability to throw even the simplest of short routes... it's just rough ridin' mind blowing that this idiot is our starting quarterback.
there is zero reason for him to play a single rough ridin' snap the entire season.
I think some of that is due to the routes we are running vs the defense we get in those situations. We like to blitz and play 40 ds off the receivers, whereas every other team in the country will press so that there aren't easy throws to be had.
No, the problem is only Waters. The only reason anything good happens when he's in the game is he just throws the ball up and Lockett bails him out. There is no other logical reason that he does anything well on the field.
ksu_fan, get off that fence; it's gotta be digging in your ass by now.
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lockett's second TD was a pretty good throw. i can't think of another where he wasn't bailed out (interestingly, a lot of his actual on target throws the last two weeks have been dropped, which is maddening as well). but i'm pretty biased since i hate waters.
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one of the things i hate most about waters is that when i see a linebacker walk up to the line on 3rd and more than 4, i automatically know it's going to be a sack. he has no ability to quickly get rid of the ball, or feel pressure. combine that with his fainting goat/run straight to the defender run game and inability to throw even the simplest of short routes... it's just rough ridin' mind blowing that this idiot is our starting quarterback.
there is zero reason for him to play a single rough ridin' snap the entire season.
I think some of that is due to the routes we are running vs the defense we get in those situations. We like to blitz and play 40 ds off the receivers, whereas every other team in the country will press so that there aren't easy throws to be had.
No, the problem is only Waters. The only reason anything good happens when he's in the game is he just throws the ball up and Lockett bails him out. There is no other logical reason that he does anything well on the field.
ksu_fan, get off that fence; it's gotta be digging in your ass by now.
Meh, Waters played a fantastic 2nd quarter, but wasn't anything special the rest of the game. I would've liked to see more Sams during stretches in the game. I think a 50-50 (or even 60-40) mix at QB is fine (and best) for this team. While he certainly contributed to the loss, I'm not going to pin a majority of this loss on the quarterback.
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oh yeah, how about that throw last week from sams that "waters would have made"... welp, waters overthrew the same pass today by more than sams last week.
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Waters was terrible at stopping the run
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Waters was terrible at stopping the run
add it to the list :curse:
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oh yeah, how about that throw last week from sams that "waters would have made"... welp, waters overthrew the same pass today by more than sams last week.
Who said that?
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Waters was terrible at stopping the run
You noticed that too. :surprised:
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Waters was terrible at stopping the run
Can't believe the way our stupid fanbase refuses to talk about this.
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oh yeah, how about that throw last week from sams that "waters would have made"... welp, waters overthrew the same pass today by more than sams last week.
Who said that?
it was very strongly insinuated here:
http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=29890.msg966166#msg966166
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oh yeah, how about that throw last week from sams that "waters would have made"... welp, waters overthrew the same pass today by more than sams last week.
Who said that?
a lot of twitterers.
i didn't mean to attribute it to you. i'm just venting. you're right that it's not waters fault that the coaches don't put the team in a position to win... but i just hate him so much.
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Remember when SAMs "got his chance" against Baylor and all he did was dick around for 199 rushing yards while the D played awesome? Why can't the D bail Waters out like that?
Anyway, the important thing is that we know 1) the QB issue is settled and 2) the D cost us the game by giving up all those yards and points today.
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oh yeah, how about that throw last week from sams that "waters would have made"... welp, waters overthrew the same pass today by more than sams last week.
Who said that?
it was very strongly insinuated here:
http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=29890.msg966166#msg966166
You have to really read into what I said to think I was comparing Waters/Sams throwing there. I only said that the receiver was open and that the throws Waters had were more open than that one.
Then I said this: http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=29890.msg966175#msg966175
And this: http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=29890.msg966177#msg966177
I have never said Waters would have made a throw that Sams missed.
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Remember when SAMs "got his chance" against Baylor and all he did was dick around for 199 rushing yards while the D played awesome? Why can't the D bail Waters out like that?
Anyway, the important thing is that we know 1) the QB issue is settled and 2) the D cost us the game by giving up all those yards and points today.
I don't think this at all.
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oh yeah, how about that throw last week from sams that "waters would have made"... welp, waters overthrew the same pass today by more than sams last week.
Who said that?
it was very strongly insinuated here:
http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=29890.msg966166#msg966166
You have to really read into what I said to think I was comparing Waters/Sams throwing there. I only said that the receiver was open and that the throws Waters had were more open than that one.
Then I said this: http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=29890.msg966175#msg966175
And this: http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=29890.msg966177#msg966177
I have never said Waters would have made a throw that Sams missed.
perhaps
No one would fault Waters if he missed that pass.
I would have, you don't get guys that open often.
I think its silly to knock him [Waters] because not every deep ball is perfectly thrown and to give all the credit to the receivers.
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Remember when SAMs "got his chance" against Baylor and all he did was dick around for 199 rushing yards while the D played awesome? Why can't the D bail Waters out like that?
Anyway, the important thing is that we know 1) the QB issue is settled and 2) the D cost us the game by giving up all those yards and points today.
Remember Pete's thread about the Sams interception being the dumbest play in KSU history? Where is that loveable goof today?
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Remember when SAMs "got his chance" against Baylor and all he did was dick around for 199 rushing yards while the D played awesome? Why can't the D bail Waters out like that?
Anyway, the important thing is that we know 1) the QB issue is settled and 2) the D cost us the game by giving up all those yards and points today.
I remember when sams did nothing but turn it over at OSU in the 2nd half. I also remember Jake playing like crap too. Remembering one doesn't mean you forgot the other. They both play well and shitty. I rough ridin' hate Waters but I won't let that give sams a free pass.
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Remember when SAMs "got his chance" against Baylor and all he did was dick around for 199 rushing yards while the D played awesome? Why can't the D bail Waters out like that?
Anyway, the important thing is that we know 1) the QB issue is settled and 2) the D cost us the game by giving up all those yards and points today.
I remember when sams did nothing but turn it over at OSU in the 2nd half. I also remember Jake playing like crap too. Remembering one doesn't mean you forgot the other. They both play well and shitty. I rough ridin' hate Waters but I won't let that give sams a free pass.
sams is better than waters, he should be the one getting the majority of the snaps
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Remember when SAMs "got his chance" against Baylor and all he did was dick around for 199 rushing yards while the D played awesome? Why can't the D bail Waters out like that?
Anyway, the important thing is that we know 1) the QB issue is settled and 2) the D cost us the game by giving up all those yards and points today.
I remember when sams did nothing but turn it over at OSU in the 2nd half. I also remember Jake playing like crap too. Remembering one doesn't mean you forgot the other. They both play well and shitty. I rough ridin' hate Waters but I won't let that give sams a free pass.
sams is better than waters, he should be the one getting the majority of the snaps
Maybe. Maybe not.
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Remember when SAMs "got his chance" against Baylor and all he did was dick around for 199 rushing yards while the D played awesome? Why can't the D bail Waters out like that?
Anyway, the important thing is that we know 1) the QB issue is settled and 2) the D cost us the game by giving up all those yards and points today.
I remember when sams did nothing but turn it over at OSU in the 2nd half. I also remember Jake playing like crap too. Remembering one doesn't mean you forgot the other. They both play well and shitty. I rough ridin' hate Waters but I won't let that give sams a free pass.
sams is better than waters, he should be the one getting the majority of the snaps
Maybe. Maybe not.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.izismile.com%2Fimg%2Fimg4%2F20110801%2F640%2Ftwo_cats_one_fence_640_01.jpg&hash=36d6a04464f79b7cdb11af2ff6a202a8cbeaf5a1)
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Waters was terrible at stopping the run
Can't believe the way our stupid fanbase refuses to talk about this.
It's inexplicable.
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D's inability to get stops on 3rd and 4th down was the issue today. It was ridonckulous
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Remember when the same demographic that loves Waters used to blame Josh Freeman for our terrible defense.
Jake Waters is a less talented but white/Christian Freeman.
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I've never once said Waters is the better QB it just blows my mind how you guys can't comprehend riding the hot hand.
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I've never once said Waters is the better QB it just blows my mind how you guys can't comprehend riding the hot hand.
Man I thought we were gonna ride our hot hand after OSU and Baylor but instead Waters has received a huge majority of snaps since then.
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I've never once said Waters is the better QB it just blows my mind how you guys can't comprehend riding the hot hand.
Man I thought we were gonna ride our hot hand after OSU and Baylor but instead Waters has received a huge majority of snaps since then.
Won four straight :dunno:
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I've never once said Waters is the better QB it just blows my mind how you guys can't comprehend riding the hot hand.
Man I thought we were gonna ride our hot hand after OSU and Baylor but instead Waters has received a huge majority of snaps since then.
Won four straight :dunno:
well, yeah against 4 of the bottom 5 in the league
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I've never once said Waters is the better QB it just blows my mind how you guys can't comprehend riding the hot hand.
Man I thought we were gonna ride our hot hand after OSU and Baylor but instead Waters has received a huge majority of snaps since then.
Won four straight :dunno:
well, yeah against 4 of the bottom 5 in the league
Not too late to say you played that one wrong
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So we lined up Hubert in the wildcat, got a delay of game, then lined up again and lost a lot of yards.
I can't find a play by play of the 98 big 12 championship, but didn't a similar situation happen? We had Bishop run out to a WR spot, and Hickson (?) was left behind center, but there was a delay or false start? Then we tried it again, and the play was a total dud?
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Really a piss poor effort all the way around . . . and the Stoops brothers were outdone by Snyder-Miller-Dimel last year, they weren't going to get outdone by Team Paralysis by Analysis again, no way. On the offensive side they came out and did what everyone should have been doing all year and run it right at K-State.
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Has anyone ever seen a game where a team had less than 25 rushing yards offensively and their defense actually put up a good performance? I don't think that I have.
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we really should have thrown to the tight ends more
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We really should have run the ball more. We only had 3 drives the entire game that lasted more than 4 plays.
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Really a piss poor effort all the way around . . . and the Stoops brothers were outdone by Snyder-Miller-Dimel last year, they weren't going to get outdone by Team Paralysis by Analysis again, no way. On the offensive side they came out and did what everyone should have been doing all year and run it right at K-State.
:love: