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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: kso_FAN on January 26, 2013, 03:25:41 PM

Title: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kso_FAN on January 26, 2013, 03:25:41 PM
Total   Pace   PPP   eFG%   TO%   OR%   FTR
KSU   64   1.05   57.3%   18.8%   17.2%   16.4%
Opp   64   1.14   58.3%   15.7%   32.4%   40.7%

ISU uses a crappy live stats site, so no split stats yet. I'll get them up later.

ISU won the battle in all 4 categories, so its not suprising that they won the game. 2nd half was worse in TO% and OR% than the totals, but the Cats actually outshot ISU in the 2nd.

Wasted opportunity to win a road game.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: CHONGS on January 26, 2013, 03:30:34 PM
I think we played particularly poor defense.  Not about giving up 3's, but super easy points in the lane.  This is just my memory so the stats might make a liar. 
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: The Whale on January 26, 2013, 03:33:22 PM
Who needs backdoor cuts when teams can spread it out and isolate on Will
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: Powercat Posse on January 26, 2013, 03:36:40 PM
Isu had 11 offensive boards and got 18 2nd chance pts out of them

We went 5 1/2 minutes without scoring in the 1st half and then shot 21-32 (75 eFG%) the rest of the game

We had 3 TOs final 8 poss of 1st half... and then had 7 2nd half TOs (not sure how many poss yet)

Our 3 bigs got ZERO off boards in 39 minutes of action
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kso_FAN on January 26, 2013, 03:40:17 PM
Defense wasn't good, but neither was there's. TO% weren't helped by Angel only playing 18 because of fouls. ISU's Oboarding was inexcusable though.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: Powercat Posse on January 26, 2013, 03:45:23 PM
Shane and Nino and even Rod a little ....  all 3 had a very difficult time with Clyburn.    I think we when we play them again, we need to put Rod on him as much as possible. 

JO and Gip both had serious issues guarding Niang, but our help defense wasnt very good.   How many times did he do a spin move in the lane and there was no one trying to go for the steal or perhaps draw a charge
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: SleepFighter on January 26, 2013, 03:54:11 PM
Defense wasn't good, but neither was there's. TO% weren't helped by Angel only playing 18 because of fouls. ISU's Oboarding was inexcusable though.

Their defense being bad doesn't excuse our defense being bad.  Third bad rebounding game in a row.  We'll finish somewhere in the second tier of this conference, but we're really super low on the SleepFighter fun to watch scale.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: sys on January 26, 2013, 03:59:43 PM
We'll finish somewhere in the second tier of this conference.

i know the ku's record suggests they deserve a tier unto themselves, but their play is on the same tier as the other not horrible teams.  i'd call it a 3 tier league.  6 teams on the 1st tier, then wvu and ut in the 2nd, and tech and tcu comprising the 3rd.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: Powercat Posse on January 26, 2013, 04:04:18 PM
Iowa St was 8-15 in the 2nd half from 3pt......
But more importantly, they got 14 of their 18 2nd chance pts in the 2nd half (off 7 ORs).   And they got back to back dunks off of TOs.   1 of those dunks, Isu had a 4 on freaking 0 because none of our guys hustled back
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 04:05:27 PM
I think we played particularly poor defense.  Not about giving up 3's, but super easy points in the lane.  This is just my memory so the stats might make a liar.

yep, no one guarded the ball well & as bad as the transition d has been this year it was horrendous today
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 04:07:53 PM
Who needs backdoor cuts when teams can spread it out and isolate on Will pretty much everyone
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kso_FAN on January 26, 2013, 04:10:53 PM
1st   Pace   PPP   eFG%   TO%   OR%   FTR   
KSU   31   A 0.88   45.0%   16.2%   17.6%   6.7%   
Opp   31   A 0.84   50.0%   22.7%   23.5%   43.5%   

2nd   Pace   PPP   eFG%   TO%   OR%   FTR   
KSU   33   1.23   72.0%   21.5%   16.7%   28.0%   
Opp   33   1.45   64.5%   9.2%   41.2%   38.7%   

As bad as I thought.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 04:11:32 PM
Shane and Nino and even Rod a little ....  all 3 had a very difficult time with Clyburn.    I think we when we play them again, we need to put Rod on him as much as possible. 

JO and Gip both had serious issues guarding Niang, but our help defense wasnt very good.   How many times did he do a spin move in the lane and there was no one trying to go for the steal or perhaps draw a charge

I think home team advantage in all sports is overrated, however in cbb a good home court absolutely gives defenders an energy & effort boost. This will be much better in Manhattan.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: sys on January 26, 2013, 04:20:53 PM
super easy points in the lane.

well, at least johnson gave us an offensive advantage on the other end. 
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kso_FAN on January 26, 2013, 04:22:14 PM
Pretty amazing to get outscored by 7 on a half where you shoot 72% and have 1.2 ppp.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: Cartierfor3 on January 26, 2013, 04:24:18 PM
Is crappy FTR just who we are now?
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 04:25:52 PM
super easy points in the lane.

well, at least johnson gave us an offensive advantage on the other end.

he's not very tall BTW. He's not going to be a rim protector like I thought he had the potential to be. Loved his game today though, bad sign for Diaz.
Title: Re: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kso_FAN on January 26, 2013, 04:27:55 PM
Is crappy FTR just who we are now?

Maybe, but we can overcome that easily with shooting. we must be even on the boards and win the TO battle.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: Powercat Posse on January 26, 2013, 04:28:38 PM
Very frustrating loss.

Just a bummer when you can shoot 75.0 eFG% over the final 26 minutes and not get a win

That 1.45ppp for Isu in the 2nd half  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: sys on January 26, 2013, 04:29:13 PM
Loved his game today though, bad sign for Diaz.

i hated it.  he's a mid-major big, and the sooner he finds a team at that level the better.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 04:30:04 PM
Is crappy FTR just who we are now?

yes, I've been saying this for 2 months now. We're jump shooters. We only ha e one player with ability to get to the rim. Gip would shoot more if he weren't in perpetual foul trouble
Title: Re: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kso_FAN on January 26, 2013, 04:32:28 PM
Is crappy FTR just who we are now?

yes, I've been saying this for 2 months now. We're jump shooters. We only ha e one player with ability to get to the rim. Gip would shoot more if he weren't in perpetual foul trouble

Yeah, it's no surprise, but not a concern for me.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 04:33:26 PM
Loved his game today though, bad sign for Diaz.

i hated it.  he's a mid-major big, and the sooner he finds a team at that level the better.

jesus man, he's a high energy player who will need time to develop. His role is perfect, it isn't his fault he was forced into that position because JO & Gip stunk today & Weber doesn't trust Diaz
Title: Re: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: catzacker on January 26, 2013, 04:45:44 PM
Is crappy FTR just who we are now?

Maybe, but we can overcome that easily with shooting. we must be even on the boards and win the TO battle.

Isn’t this the issue though – we can’t.  Like, relying on jump shots inherently de-emphasizes OR and all but eliminates FTR.  The only thing left is TO.



Title: Re: Re: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kso_FAN on January 26, 2013, 04:48:05 PM
Is crappy FTR just who we are now?

Maybe, but we can overcome that easily with shooting. we must be even on the boards and win the TO battle.

Isn’t this the issue though – we can’t.  Like, relying on jump shots inherently de-emphasizes OR and all but eliminates FTR.  The only thing left is TO.

Defensive rebounding and TO%. Still doable.
Title: Re: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 04:48:05 PM
Is crappy FTR just who we are now?

Maybe, but we can overcome that easily with shooting. we must be even on the boards and win the TO battle.

Isn’t this the issue though – we can’t.  Like, relying on jump shots inherently de-emphasizes OR and all but eliminates FTR.  The only thing left is TO.

you can be a jumpshooting team and draw fouls if you present the threat of penetration, drive & kick
Title: Re: Re: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kso_FAN on January 26, 2013, 04:49:01 PM
Is crappy FTR just who we are now?

Maybe, but we can overcome that easily with shooting. we must be even on the boards and win the TO battle.

Isn’t this the issue though – we can’t.  Like, relying on jump shots inherently de-emphasizes OR and all but eliminates FTR.  The only thing left is TO.

you can be a jumpshooting team and draw fouls if you present the threat of penetration, drive & kick

With only 18 minutes of Angel that threat is really diminished.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 04:50:51 PM
Is crappy FTR just who we are now?

Maybe, but we can overcome that easily with shooting. we must be even on the boards and win the TO battle.

Isn’t this the issue though – we can’t.  Like, relying on jump shots inherently de-emphasizes OR and all but eliminates FTR.  The only thing left is TO.

you can be a jumpshooting team and draw fouls if you present the threat of penetration, drive & kick

With only 18 minutes of Angel that threat is really diminished.

with 36 minutes of Angel its hard to bear that burden alone
Title: Re: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: catzacker on January 26, 2013, 04:55:50 PM
Is crappy FTR just who we are now?

Maybe, but we can overcome that easily with shooting. we must be even on the boards and win the TO battle.

Isn’t this the issue though – we can’t.  Like, relying on jump shots inherently de-emphasizes OR and all but eliminates FTR.  The only thing left is TO.

you can be a jumpshooting team and draw fouls if you present the threat of penetration, drive & kick

I agree you can be, however  the ball in this offense tends to make its way away from the basket for a “shot” instead of at the basket. 
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kso_FAN on January 26, 2013, 04:58:01 PM
Is crappy FTR just who we are now?

Maybe, but we can overcome that easily with shooting. we must be even on the boards and win the TO battle.

Isn’t this the issue though – we can’t.  Like, relying on jump shots inherently de-emphasizes OR and all but eliminates FTR.  The only thing left is TO.

you can be a jumpshooting team and draw fouls if you present the threat of penetration, drive & kick

With only 18 minutes of Angel that threat is really diminished.

with 36 minutes of Angel its hard to bear that burden alone

Point is he is really the only that to do that.

Angel's minutes changed our defense and offense a ton today. Significant impact on both TO%, fortunately we managed efficient offense without him. But today was a clear example that we need Angel on the floor. Might not have been the complete difference, but only 18 minutes was big.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 05:02:48 PM
Yes, his "motion" takes place at the free throw extended and up. Inferior competition can't take away the curl action that's essential to getting in the paint. He's got to find a way to get shots from 15 feet in when the curl action is taken away.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: sys on January 26, 2013, 05:05:55 PM
jesus man, he's a high energy player who will need time to develop.

"he tries".
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 05:07:05 PM
Point is he is really the only that to do that.

yeah man, I was agreeing with you. We're saying the same thing.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 05:10:59 PM
jesus man, he's a high energy player who will need time to develop.

"he tries".

Well yeah, that's very important for where he is in his development. He's an 18 year old undersized true freshman playing Big 12 basketball. It would be great if we only signed players who could come in and immediately play 24-35 minutes a night. Should we not sign anyone who doesn't fit that criteria?
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: catzacker on January 26, 2013, 05:12:38 PM
Yes, his "motion" takes place at the free throw extended and up. Inferior competition can't take away the curl action that's essential to getting in the paint. He's got to find a way to get shots from 15 feet in when the curl action is taken away.

“we keep telling them, take the open shot not the closer shot”

not exact, but this is basically what oscar has stated over and over again.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 05:20:57 PM
Yes, his "motion" takes place at the free throw extended and up. Inferior competition can't take away the curl action that's essential to getting in the paint. He's got to find a way to get shots from 15 feet in when the curl action is taken away.

“we keep telling them, take the open shot not the closer shot”

not exact, but this is basically what oscar has stated over and over again.

I know we've discussed this before but its so frustrating that he is insisting these guys play this style that doesn't suit these players. Its his biggest coaching weakness, that he's a one trick pony. Also not to go too far off the rails, but its bizarre that he recruited and signed Orris. How does he fit with this system? His strongest asset is his ball handling, how in the world is that a fit?
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kcchiefdav on January 26, 2013, 05:21:51 PM
I think it's kinda fitting that this kind of game came against Iowa State because we are becoming ISU. From 2013 onward, we're going to be the type of team that "can beat anyone at home" but drops too many on the road. Perhaps that's all we've ever been, but it just feels a lot worse now.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: sys on January 26, 2013, 05:24:20 PM
Well yeah, that's very important for where he is in his development. He's an 18 year old undersized true freshman playing Big 12 basketball. It would be great if we only signed players who could come in and immediately play 24-35 minutes a night. Should we not sign anyone who doesn't fit that criteria?

he's not going to get better at trying with experience.  he has little upside, and kstate shouldn't be signing players like that.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kso_FAN on January 26, 2013, 05:37:37 PM
Well yeah, that's very important for where he is in his development. He's an 18 year old undersized true freshman playing Big 12 basketball. It would be great if we only signed players who could come in and immediately play 24-35 minutes a night. Should we not sign anyone who doesn't fit that criteria?

he's not going to get better at trying with experience.  he has little upside, and kstate shouldn't be signing players like that.

I've got to ask, what are you basing this on? Haven't you indicated you haven't watched a lot of the games this year?

I just haven't seen anything that leads me to believe he can't be a solid contributor. He's a bit different, but no reason he can't be similar to Gipson, who I think is solid (when he's not in foul trouble).
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 26, 2013, 05:49:14 PM
Well yeah, that's very important for where he is in his development. He's an 18 year old undersized true freshman playing Big 12 basketball. It would be great if we only signed players who could come in and immediately play 24-35 minutes a night. Should we not sign anyone who doesn't fit that criteria?

he's not going to get better at trying with experience.  he has little upside, and kstate shouldn't be signing players like that.

other than playing time how is freshman Gip better than freshman DJamer?
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: Skipper44 on January 26, 2013, 07:55:35 PM
DJamer at least had the body to set picks and has shown a little touch around the basket.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kso_FAN on January 26, 2013, 08:19:55 PM
It is interesting that this year's 2nd half in Ames was actually worse than last year's.

2nd   Pace   PPP   eFG%   TO%   OR%   FTR
KSU   31   1.10   53.8%   22.6%   33.3%   30.8%
Opp   31   1.39   58.9%   16.1%   50.0%   46.4%

http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=18907.msg453775#msg453775

The discussion points from last year's game in Ames are really familiar as well.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on January 26, 2013, 08:28:46 PM
We rebounded like pussies and got called for a ton of ticky tack fouls.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: Powercat Posse on January 26, 2013, 10:36:25 PM
When u allow ORs to occur, u don't know what the result will be.

Today, the result was costly. 14 2nd chance Pts off of 7 ORs in the 2nd hf alone. That's 2 Pts per OR. Can't run away from it....that was the biggest stat in the game.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: ednksu on January 26, 2013, 10:40:16 PM
Yes, his "motion" takes place at the free throw extended and up. Inferior competition can't take away the curl action that's essential to getting in the paint. He's got to find a way to get shots from 15 feet in when the curl action is taken away.

“we keep telling them, take the open shot not the closer shot”

not exact, but this is basically what oscar has stated over and over again.

I know we've discussed this before but its so frustrating that he is insisting these guys play this style that doesn't suit these players. Its his biggest coaching weakness, that he's a one trick pony. (edited)
Both Jake and Dennis revolutionized their game with a short/mid range pull up.  Angel would do well to have the same added to his game, see his tear drop over Withey.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: Cire on January 26, 2013, 10:43:24 PM
i effing hate the way we play basketball
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: kougar24 on January 26, 2013, 11:57:10 PM
I think home team advantage in all sports is overrated

SI (iirc) did a study a couple years back showing empirical proof that home field/court advantage is very real and actually understated, and the advantage is due almost entirely to officiating being influenced to varying degrees.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: sys on January 27, 2013, 12:36:10 AM
I've got to ask, what are you basing this on? Haven't you indicated you haven't watched a lot of the games this year?

I just haven't seen anything that leads me to believe he can't be a solid contributor. He's a bit different, but no reason he can't be similar to Gipson, who I think is solid (when he's not in foul trouble).

including today, i've probably seen him play 25-30 minutes of bball.  that's enough.  if he's starting as a jr or sr, kstate will either have fantastic guards or not be a very good bball team.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: sys on January 27, 2013, 12:39:05 AM
other than playing time how is freshman Gip better than freshman DJamer?

more skilled, stronger, bigger body, longer arms.  i'd like to say better hands too.  i haven't seen enough of johnson's hands, to evaluate him.  but i'd be very surprised if gip's weren't significantly better.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: Havs on January 27, 2013, 01:34:14 AM
i effing hate the way we play basketball

I said that from 2006-2010. Sorry.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: sys on January 27, 2013, 01:35:24 AM
I said that from 2006-2010. Sorry.

i paid good money to have you banned, and yet here you are.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: Havs on January 27, 2013, 01:36:26 AM
I said that from 2006-2010. Sorry.

i paid good money to have you banned, and yet here you are.

I've always loved you. Hope we can make things up.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: JohnnyJohnson on January 27, 2013, 02:24:36 AM
In all honesty, it was near domination for 35 minutes. The kitties are probably the most overrated team excluding Butler.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: Havs on January 27, 2013, 02:31:28 AM
In all honesty, it was near domination for 35 minutes. The kitties are probably the most overrated team excluding Butler.

Completely underrated. Kansas State is a title contender and we beat them.

Man ISU posters suck outside of me.
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: wetwillie on January 27, 2013, 11:01:19 AM
In all honesty, it was near domination for 35 minutes. The kitties are probably the most overrated team excluding Butler.

Completely underrated. Kansas State is a title contender and we beat them.

Man ISU posters suck outside of me.

A contender for which title? 
Title: Re: Cyclone sweep; ISU ADV
Post by: MakeItRain on January 27, 2013, 11:59:42 AM
In all honesty, it was near domination for 35 minutes. The kitties are probably the most overrated team excluding Butler.

Completely underrated. Kansas State is a title contender and we beat them.

Man ISU posters suck outside of me.

your fanbase is filled with socially awkward nerds. You're one of the rare cyclone fans who dare go to a road game so I'm sure you are aware of this having had an eye opening experience.