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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Football => Topic started by: Super PurpleCat on October 22, 2012, 06:38:11 PM
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How did that amazing 1998 team do, besides crash out of the title game and burn at the Alamo Bowl? Let's see the numbers:
PENALTIES (amount-yards):
8-60 Indiana State (W 66-0)
14-107 Northern Illinois (W 73-7)
10-70 Texas (W 48-7)
12-109 NE Louisiana (W 62-7)
11-99 @ Colorado (W 16-9)
5-36 Oklahoma State (W 52-20)
6-55 Iowa State (W 52-7)
12-111 @ Kansas (W 54-6)
6-68 @ Baylor (W 49-6)
8-83 Nebraska (W 40-30)
13-85 @ Mizzou (W 31-25)
13-110 @ Texas A&M (Big 12 title game) (L 36-33 2OT)
14-125 @ Purdue (Alamo Bowl) (L 37-34)
And as for turnovers? I'm sorry but the stats only show fumbles. Listed are (# fumbles - fumbles lost):
1-0 Indiana State
3-2 Northern Illinois
2-2 Texas
4-1 NE Louisiana
4-2 @ Colorado
0-0 Oklahoma State
1-0 Iowa State
2-1 @ Kansas
1-0 @ Baylor
6-4 Nebraska
2-0 @ Mizzou
5-2 @ A&M (Big 12 title game)
3-1 @ Purdue (Alamo Bowl)
1998 was an amazing year to be a fan, but face it. It was undisciplined and sloppy and finally killed us in the end. Bishop's fumble against A&M shouldn't have been a surprise.
1998 Big 12 box scores and recaps are all here (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/sfc/big12/sfcc98.htm)
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98 through 11 game reg season
105 for 808 yds
9.5 for 73.5 yds/game
98 through 13 game post season
132 for 1043 yds
10.2 for 80.2 yds/game :ohdear:
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From the game notes from the 1997 home win against Bowling Green:
"I'm pleased with the way our youngsters played," said Kansas State coach LHC Bill Snyder. "I'm unhappy about some of the
penalties we had. That's very undisciplined."
That's pretty much the summary of those fast and loose teams of the late 90s. Not even the case now. 2012 is probably the best image of HCBS in football team form.
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Our penalty "meltdown" game was ISU. Will we have a turnover meltdown game?
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And as for turnovers? I'm sorry but the stats only show fumbles. Listed are (# fumbles - fumbles lost):
I found season stats for 1998's turnovers on the NCAA website.
Average turnovers per game
1998: 1.5
2012: 0.6
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How did that amazing 1998 team do, besides crash out of the title game and burn at the Alamo Bowl? Let's see the numbers:
PENALTIES (amount-yards):
8-60 Indiana State (W 66-0)
14-107 Northern Illinois (W 73-7)
10-70 Texas (W 48-7)
12-109 NE Louisiana (W 62-7)
11-99 @ Colorado (W 16-9)
5-36 Oklahoma State (W 52-20)
6-55 Iowa State (W 52-7)
12-111 @ Kansas (W 54-6)
6-68 @ Baylor (W 49-6)
8-83 Nebraska (W 40-30)
13-85 @ Mizzou (W 31-25)
13-110 @ Texas A&M (Big 12 title game) (L 36-33 2OT)
14-125 @ Purdue (Alamo Bowl) (L 37-34)
And as for turnovers? I'm sorry but the stats only show fumbles. Listed are (# fumbles - fumbles lost):
1-0 Indiana State
3-2 Northern Illinois
2-2 Texas
4-1 NE Louisiana
4-2 @ Colorado
0-0 Oklahoma State
1-0 Iowa State
2-1 @ Kansas
1-0 @ Baylor
6-4 Nebraska
2-0 @ Mizzou
5-2 @ A&M (Big 12 title game)
3-1 @ Purdue (Alamo Bowl)
1998 was an amazing year to be a fan, but face it. It was undisciplined and sloppy and finally killed us in the end. Bishop's fumble against A&M shouldn't have been a surprise.
1998 Big 12 box scores and recaps are all here (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/sfc/big12/sfcc98.htm)
K-State was intercepted 8 times in the season, including 4 in the bowl game. Hint, the xx-xx-x format in a box score is completions-attempts-interceptions.
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And as for turnovers? I'm sorry but the stats only show fumbles. Listed are (# fumbles - fumbles lost):
I found season stats for 1998's turnovers on the NCAA website.
Average turnovers per game
1998: 1.5
2012: 0.6
4 lost fumbles against Nebraska, 2 against A&M... woof.
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K-State was intercepted 8 times in the season, including 4 in the bowl game. Hint, the xx-xx-x format in a box score is completions-attempts-interceptions.
Thanks. I consider the Alamo Bowl a lost cause anyway. I don't think anyone wanted to even acknowledge the game at that point, especially the players.
Do I think that 98 team could methodically march down the field, running clock off, and score when it wanted to? No. That is why I don't think that team could've won this year in Norman.
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I'm starting to love these comparisons.
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I'm starting to love these comparisons.
Here's the other thing that I'm REALLY enjoying about this season. Klein's a perfect fit for what Snyder wants to run. Bishop was more impressive in pure athleticism, but Klein is fantastic at checking plays at the line. You don't have to dumb the playbook down for him at all. Plus, Klein's ability to wait for his blocks is just stunning. You take that into account along with the fact that this team is much more disciplined, the defense doesn't get beat by big plays at all, and we have a lot of athleticism at receiver, and this team really starts to look pretty incredible.
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I'm starting to love these comparisons.
Here's the other thing that I'm REALLY enjoying about this season. Klein's a perfect fit for what Snyder wants to run. Bishop was more impressive in pure athleticism, but Klein is fantastic at checking plays at the line. You don't have to dumb the playbook down for him at all. Plus, Klein's ability to wait for his blocks is just stunning. You take that into account along with the fact that this team is much more disciplined, the defense doesn't get beat by big plays at all, and we have a lot of athleticism at receiver, and this team really starts to look pretty incredible.
Can't forget about our lines, both on offense and defense. Finney and Whitehair are going to play in the NFL for 10+ years, Lucas and Taylor ought to be drafted late. The defensive line is capable of consistently pressuring the QB and they do a good job at occupying blockers/gaps on running plays so Arthur and the rest of the linebackers can fly straight to the ball.
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I'm starting to love these comparisons.
Here's the other thing that I'm REALLY enjoying about this season. Klein's a perfect fit for what Snyder wants to run. Bishop was more impressive in pure athleticism, but Klein is fantastic at checking plays at the line. You don't have to dumb the playbook down for him at all. Plus, Klein's ability to wait for his blocks is just stunning. You take that into account along with the fact that this team is much more disciplined, the defense doesn't get beat by big plays at all, and we have a lot of athleticism at receiver, and this team really starts to look pretty incredible.
Klein checked a ton of plays against WVU.
And yeah, this is a great team.
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How many draft picks did the 98 team produce? How many will this one?
As a whole, the 98 team was far more talented. It was probably the best defense the cats have ever had. 98 had, by far, the best o line in k-state history.
As for comparing Klein and Bishop, they were different players. Bishop had a cannon for an arm and was much faster than Klein. Klein definately understands the game better. Remember though, if ricky williams wouldn't have set the career rushing record that year, Bishop would have won the heisman.
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How many draft picks did the 98 team produce? How many will this one?
As a whole, the 98 team was far more talented. It was probably the best defense the cats have ever had. 98 had, by far, the best o line in k-state history.
As for comparing Klein and Bishop, they were different players. Bishop had a cannon for an arm and was much faster than Klein. Klein definately understands the game better. Remember though, if ricky williams wouldn't have set the career rushing record that year, Bishop would have won the heisman.
Even if Williams hadn't broken that record and the Cats had won in St.Louis I don't think he would have won,the voting wasn't even close.
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Found an even more detailed 1998 stats sheet (http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/kansas-state/1998.html) with full roster by position.
Comparo between 1998 and 2012 (still in progress)
PASSING:
Player Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate
1998 Michael Bishop 164 295 55.6 2844 9.6 10.6 23 4 159.6
2012 Collin Klein 98 139 70.5 1397 10.1 10.8 10 2 175.8
RUSHING:
1998 RUSHING Att Yds Avg TD
1 Eric Hickson 169 902 5.3 9
2 Michael Bishop 177 748 4.2 14
3 Marlon Charles 59 342 5.8 5
4 Frank Murphy 55 257 4.7 5
2012 RUSHING Att Yds Avg TD
1 John Hubert 114 658 5.8 8
2 Collin Klein 110 551 5.0 14
3 Angelo Pease 27 164 6.1 0
4 Daniel Sams 22 198 9.0 3
RECEIVING:
1998 RECEIVING Rec Yards Avg TD
1 Darnell McDonald 75 1092 14.6 9
2 Aaron Lockett 44 928 21.1 6
3 Justin Swift 23 342 14.9 3
4 Gavin Peries 8 192 24.0 3
2012 RECEIVING Rec Yards Avg TD
1 Tyler Lockett 22 391 17.8 3
2 Chris Harper 24 345 14.4 2
3 Tremaine Thompson 19 302 15.9 3
4 Travis Tannahill 10 147 14.7 1
5 Curry Sexton 5 58 11.6 1
Unfortunately that site does not record tackles for 1998 so I can only compare interceptions:
DEFENSE INTERCEPTIONS:
1998 DEFENSE INTERCEPTIONS Int Yds Avg TD
1 Jeff Kelly 3 15 5.0 0
2 Jerametrius Butler 2 10 5.0 0
3 Dyshod Carter 2 30 15.0 0
4 Mark Simoneau 2 0 0.0 0
5 Monty Beisel 1 5 5.0 0
6 Lamar Chapman 1 15 15.0 0
7 Jarrod Cooper 1 15 15.0 0
8 Jon McGraw 1 0 0.0 0
9 Gerald Neasman 1 5 5.0 0
10 Milton Proctor 1 25 25.0 0
11 Devane Robinson 1 5 5.0 0
2012 DEFENSE INTERCEPTIONS Int Yds Avg TD
1 Ty Zimmerman 4 37 9.3 0
2 Nigel Malone 2 73 36.5 0
3 Allen Chapman 1 0 0.0 0
4 Arthur Brown 1 0 0.0 0
PUNT RETURNS
1998 PUNT RETURNS Ret Yds Avg TD
1 David Allen 33 729 22.1 4
2012 PUNT RETURNS Ret Yds Avg TD
1 Tremaine Thompson 6 166 27.7 1
KICK RETURNS
1998 KICK RETURNS Ret Yds Avg TD
1 Frank Murphy 8 210 26.3 0
2012 KICK RETURNS Ret Yds Avg TD
1 Tyler Lockett 11 340 30.9 1
PUNTING:
1998 PUNTING Punts Yds Avg
1 James Garcia 30 1278 42.6
2012 PUNTING Punts Yds Avg
1 Ryan Doerr 16 653 40.8
KICKING:
1998 KICKING XPM XPA XP% FGM FGA FG% Pts
1 Martin Gramatica 69 69 100.0 22 31 71.0 135
2012 KICKING XPM XPA XP% FGM FGA FG% Pts
1 Anthony Cantele 39 39 100.0 9 10 90.0 66
Draw your own conclusions.
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How did that amazing 1998 team do, besides crash out of the title game and burn at the Alamo Bowl? Let's see the numbers:
PENALTIES (amount-yards):
8-60 Indiana State (W 66-0)
14-107 Northern Illinois (W 73-7)
10-70 Texas (W 48-7)
12-109 NE Louisiana (W 62-7)
11-99 @ Colorado (W 16-9)
5-36 Oklahoma State (W 52-20)
6-55 Iowa State (W 52-7)
12-111 @ Kansas (W 54-6)
6-68 @ Baylor (W 49-6)
8-83 Nebraska (W 40-30)
13-85 @ Mizzou (W 31-25)
13-110 @ Texas A&M (Big 12 title game) (L 36-33 2OT)
14-125 @ Purdue (Alamo Bowl) (L 37-34)
And as for turnovers? I'm sorry but the stats only show fumbles. Listed are (# fumbles - fumbles lost):
1-0 Indiana State
3-2 Northern Illinois
2-2 Texas
4-1 NE Louisiana
4-2 @ Colorado
0-0 Oklahoma State
1-0 Iowa State
2-1 @ Kansas
1-0 @ Baylor
6-4 Nebraska
2-0 @ Mizzou
5-2 @ A&M (Big 12 title game)
3-1 @ Purdue (Alamo Bowl)
1998 was an amazing year to be a fan, but face it. It was undisciplined and sloppy and finally killed us in the end. Bishop's fumble against A&M shouldn't have been a surprise.
1998 Big 12 box scores and recaps are all here (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/sfc/big12/sfcc98.htm)
That team must have been all kinds of talented and awesome to overcome all that slopiness.
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Yeah that is really astounding. I wonder where the majority of those penalties occurred. Probably all over the board I guess
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Once again, pud schedule... vs Texas was the only good win.
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How many draft picks did the 98 team produce? How many will this one?
As a whole, the 98 team was far more talented. It was probably the best defense the cats have ever had. 98 had, by far, the best o line in k-state history.
As for comparing Klein and Bishop, they were different players. Bishop had a cannon for an arm and was much faster than Klein. Klein definately understands the game better. Remember though, if ricky williams wouldn't have set the career rushing record that year, Bishop would have won the heisman.
Even if Williams hadn't broken that record and the Cats had won in St.Louis I don't think he would have won,the voting wasn't even close.
it wasn't close because he broke the rough ridin' record.
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Yeah that is really astounding. I wonder where the majority of those penalties occurred. Probably all over the board I guess
If I remember correctly, false starts and a whole crap load of delays of game.
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Yeah that is really astounding. I wonder where the majority of those penalties occurred. Probably all over the board I guess
If I remember correctly, false starts and a whole crap load of delays of game.
Sounds about right. It seemed like with Bishop and Beasley and Kavanaugh and Roberson we were always rushing to the line of scrimmage and getting delay of games because of the confusion on the play calling. I think that last drive of the '96 Cotton Bowl against BYU where Kavanaugh throws the INT in the endzone because we took way too long getting the play out there and not having the discipline to call the timeout cost us that win.
So my observation is that for years Snyder has been trying to get our QBs up to the sophistication and discipline that Klein and the offense show out there. Some of our other squads, while very talented, would've racked up the false starts and delays of game and possibly killed sustained drives because of it. It's like for years we've been trying to run the offense we're finally seeing today. :thumbs:
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How many draft picks did the 98 team produce? How many will this one?
As a whole, the 98 team was far more talented. It was probably the best defense the cats have ever had. 98 had, by far, the best o line in k-state history.
As for comparing Klein and Bishop, they were different players. Bishop had a cannon for an arm and was much faster than Klein. Klein definately understands the game better. Remember though, if ricky williams wouldn't have set the career rushing record that year, Bishop would have won the heisman.
The 98 team had 6 players drafted, and this team will have 6 or 7 drafted.
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the amount of players drafted has little to do with the argument of 1998 vs 2012
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Yeah that is really astounding. I wonder where the majority of those penalties occurred. Probably all over the board I guess
If I remember correctly, false starts and a whole crap load of delays of game.
And holding and pass interference.
So my observation is that for years Snyder has been trying to get our QBs up to the sophistication and discipline that Klein and the offense show out there. Some of our other squads, while very talented, would've racked up the false starts and delays of game and possibly killed sustained drives because of it. It's like for years we've been trying to run the offense we're finally seeing today. :thumbs:
I agree this is possible, although it's tough to know for sure because Snyder's always been willing to build his offense around the talents of his players and what the league defenses are willing to give up. As he was building, that meant a passing offense that morphed into an option/run attack with lots of seam routes and P/A. But I've never seen a K-State team so melded to what Snyder wants them to do. It's like they're an actual extension of him. And I wonder if Snyder's ideal offense would be one that never had to throw and was guaranteed to pick up 3.5 yards on every play. I started to think this in the second half (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/playbyplay?gameId=233262306&period=3) of the 2003 Missouri game, when every play seemed to be a Sproles dive, interspersed with a few Ell runs up the middle, just sitting on our 21-7 halftime lead to clinch the North.
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I agree this is possible, although it's tough to know for sure because Snyder's always been willing to build his offense around the talents of his players and what the league defenses are willing to give up. As he was building, that meant a passing offense that morphed into an option/run attack with lots of seam routes and P/A. But I've never seen a K-State team so melded to what Snyder wants them to do. It's like they're an actual extension of him. And I wonder if Snyder's ideal offense would be one that never had to throw and was guaranteed to pick up 3.5 yards on every play. I started to think this in the second half (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/playbyplay?gameId=233262306&period=3) of the 2003 Missouri game, when every play seemed to be a Sproles dive, interspersed with a few Ell runs up the middle, just sitting on our 21-7 halftime lead to clinch the North.
2nd and 9 at MIZZ 44 Ell Roberson (KSU) pass left side intercepted by Nino Williams (MO). Returned for 23 yards. :sdeek:
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Remember how we'd score a TD on, like, every other kickoff return, and then they'd all get brought back because of a holding penalty?