goemaw.com
General Discussion => Essentially Flyertalk => Topic started by: Kat Kid on August 05, 2012, 11:35:06 PM
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Current situation:
Me--0something Nissan Versa (50,000 miles)
Her--'99 Green Saturn tiny tim sedan (115K)
The Saturn is mine, but wife recently offered to switch and cleaned it out. She drives in town, I commute. I think she wants me to sell it on craigslist but will just be the most subtle passive aggressive possible and wants me to grab this sitch by the horns.
Probably going to be a slow and steady search for the next year + while I stalk the contenders and slowly devise a plan before I make the move. Have been consulting edmunds and have been studying up on the ways of the car salesmen breed. I hope to gain the deep knowledge this website possesses on the subject (particularly now that I don't have to wade through DS/Jeffy posts in my thread). All that said, this car is for me. The wife is fine with the Versa and after some quality time with the Saturn will be thankful for its return.
The Budget: as of now, undetermined. Will depend upon the interest rates (are we back at 0%?), COH and assumes the Versa is paid off (which it almost is).
Objectives:
1) Find a car that will provide me more joy than a 99 saturn or a 0something Versa
2) Must be a sedan at best, wagon at worst
3) Must get better than 25 mpg highway
4) Under $25,000 new
5) Under $20,000 used
Some thoughts:
Have considered everything from a used Cadillac to a new Mini Cooper Countryman. The hard rules are above. Ingenuity is to be encouraged but this is not Property Virgins where the budget is the starting point. Coming under is a good thing. Godspeed.
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It may be worth your time to look at a Lincoln LS, Hyundai XG350 or Genesis, Jaguar S Type. All of them are pretty good cars but have depreciated like crazy and you can get a good low mile one for around or under 10k.
Saab has been shelved as a result the market has cooled. The 9-5 and the 9-3 are both pretty decent looking cars also wagons available. You can get one that's basically brand new in the high teens. Parts are largely GM and will continue to be distributed.
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http://www.ford.com/cars/fusion/2013/
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It may be worth your time to look at a Lincoln LS, Hyundai XG350 or Genesis, Jaguar S Type. All of them are pretty good cars but have depreciated like crazy and you can get a good low mile one for around or under 10k.
Saab has been shelved as a result the market has cooled. The 9-5 and the 9-3 are both pretty decent looking cars also wagons available. You can get one that's basically brand new in the high teens. Parts are largely GM and will continue to be distributed.
:lol: soo you not only know nothing about fashion but also cars lmao
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It may be worth your time to look at a Lincoln LS, Hyundai XG350 or Genesis, Jaguar S Type. All of them are pretty good cars but have depreciated like crazy and you can get a good low mile one for around or under 10k.
Saab has been shelved as a result the market has cooled. The 9-5 and the 9-3 are both pretty decent looking cars also wagons available. You can get one that's basically brand new in the high teens. Parts are largely GM and will continue to be distributed.
What the?
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2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited with Luxury Group II Package
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we have a 2008 Mercury Milan (Ford Fusion) and it's been a great car.
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2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited with Luxury Group II Package
This might (might) be over the budget limit. (Maybe)
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2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited with Luxury Group II Package
This might (might) be over the budget limit. (Maybe)
I didn't even read the post. I just posted what I bought.
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Canadian guy I know has to replace his wife's mini-van. It's not his fault, though. He doesn't WANT the mini-van, but that's just the cards he has been dealt.
KK, if you are in the market for a mini-van, my Canadian friend is pretty much an expert.
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Is there a place that can tell you exactly how much to offer a dealer and they will give you the car?
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Is there a place that can tell you exactly how much to offer a dealer and they will give you the car?
edmunds
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Can't go wrong with a Honda - :dunno:
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Here is how I got a good deal on a new car after I figured out exactly what I wanted. First, I went to the local place and got a qoute from them. Then I emailed every dealership that sold the same brand in about a 3 hour radius asking if they could beat that price. When I got a qoute that was significantly below kbb/edmunds/ etc I took it into the local place and they matched the price with no hassle.
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Here is how I got a good deal on a new car after I figured out exactly what I wanted. First, I went to the local place and got a qoute from them. Then I emailed every dealership that sold the same brand in about a 3 hour radius asking if they could beat that price. When I got a qoute that was significantly below kbb/edmunds/ etc I took it into the local place and they matched the price with no hassle.
For a new car?
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new cars are generally priced by the manufacturer - not the dealer.
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new cars are generally priced by the manufacturer - not the dealer.
sure, but nobody pays that
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just bought a new ford fusion a month ago, it's fantastic KK
american made!
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Nissan Altima.
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Fusion's are really good cars. Also the brand new Taurus's are nice.
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just bought a new ford fusion a month ago, it's fantastic KK
american made!
I love mine
but fwiw, they're mostly made in mexico
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either way, the fusion is the best car i've ever owned. love the hell out of it. :driving:
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For new cars I'd look at a Hyundai Sonata, a Ford fusion a Chevy Malbu or a Nissan Altima. All nice sedans with decent gas mileage that will fit in your price range. Just really a matter of peronal preference on which one you pick. Stay away from the used Saab that another poster mentioned those things are crap and cost a ton to repair.
The Mini Cooper is actually a decent option they are good cars with good gas mileage and they hold their value very well. Problem is they aren't real practicle if you have a family and they are really crappy in the snow. If you live in the MW you would probably need to have snow tires in the winter and that is just a pain in the ass.
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either way, the fusion is the best car i've ever owned. love the hell out of it. :driving:
yep I highly recommend it as well
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I'd have to PI you pretty bad if you bought a mini-cooper.
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new Ford Taurus is really nice fwiw.
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http://www.ford.com/cars/fusion/2013/
This, so much this. My next car.
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http://www.ford.com/cars/fusion/2013/
This, so much this. My next car.
lmao
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don't overthink this. just go get like a three year old camry or accord with under 50k on it. you won't be able to get 0% for a used, but you can get under 3% which is basically nothing. don't be a hero.
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don't overthink this. just go get like a three year old camry or accord with under 50k on it. you won't be able to get 0% for a used, but you can get under 3% which is basically nothing. don't be a hero.
you know what? good advice. Any good tips on negotiating?
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don't overthink this. just go get like a three year old camry or accord with under 50k on it. you won't be able to get 0% for a used, but you can get under 3% which is basically nothing. don't be a hero.
you know what? good advice. Any good tips on negotiating?
I wouldn't pay the premium for an Accord or Camry. Get a late model Fusion.
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don't overthink this. just go get like a three year old camry or accord with under 50k on it. you won't be able to get 0% for a used, but you can get under 3% which is basically nothing. don't be a hero.
you know what? good advice. Any good tips on negotiating?
I wouldn't pay the premium for an Accord or Camry. Get a late model Fusion.
Could be.
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don't overthink this. just go get like a three year old camry or accord with under 50k on it. you won't be able to get 0% for a used, but you can get under 3% which is basically nothing. don't be a hero.
you know what? good advice. Any good tips on negotiating?
sure... when you are ready to buy, look at the links below. set up a penfed account. then get preapproved for 20k used car loan first. they currently have them for 1.49%. then go around to local dealerships in mhk and ask to test drive a three year old camry and a three year old accord. you prob won't buy from them but you need to get behind the wheel and form and opinion about them. is the accord worth a little more? idk. you decide.
then look at the autotrader list and make a top five or top ten. don't go independant. also don't be afraid to buy a used honda accord from a from a ford or chevy dealer. once you have your list, get your phone. call the dealers and start negotiating. if the car is 19k, offer 16k. pit them against each other. negotiate. buy the best one that you think is the best deal. then move on. party. worry about more important stuff. :dance:
www.penfed.org
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/searchresults.xhtml?zip=66502&endYear=2013&modelCode1=ACCORD&startYear=1981&makeCode1=HONDA&listingType=used&searchRadius=200&firstRecord=51&Log=0
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don't overthink this. just go get like a three year old camry or accord with under 50k on it. you won't be able to get 0% for a used, but you can get under 3% which is basically nothing. don't be a hero.
you know what? good advice. Any good tips on negotiating?
I wouldn't pay the premium for an Accord or Camry. Get a late model Fusion.
there really isn't a premium when you compare three year old versions of those cars but sure, throw in fusion if you want. it's 'merican. also probably need to throw in sonata as well though and maybe even malibu. then something that should be easy starts to get hard. idk. go drive all five if you want kk and pick out the one you like best i guess.
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pro tip, heated leather seats.
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Www.kstatecars.com
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pro tip, heated leather seats.
also ventilated for ass cooling on hot summer days
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protip: do not buy a fusion (or any ford) before model year 2010
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I agree with the e-mail all dealers within a radius that you're willing to travel to see if they can beat a quoted price. That works pretty well. Another method that I like to use is find a truck/car that I want, have the dealer price two model choices-one the model you want, and one below that model, and then rip them to pieces when they don't discount the upper level model more of its percentage (they have a higher margin on the higher MSRP). The easiest way to negotiate on a vehicle that you want is to have a comparison to barter against. Then, since the stealership was close to work, I stopped in four or so times and hum-hawed around and kept asking money off on the one I was interested in. You never know if you actually got a good deal, but since the guy that sold my truck to me never talks to me when I go in for service (I say "hi") I view that as a positive. :dunno:
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protip: do not buy a fusion (or any ford) before model year 2010
we've got a 2008, it's been great.
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If you go the used Accord/Camry route, explore using a home equity loan instead of the typical used car financing for the tax deductible interest. I would think the way to make the most of the purchase is find a dealer that will let you buy the car on a cc for the miles then pay it off with the home equity loan.
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Get a truck.
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If you go the used Accord/Camry route, explore using a home equity loan instead of the typical used car financing for the tax deductible interest. I would think the way to make the most of the purchase is find a dealer that will let you buy the car on a cc for the miles then pay it off with the home equity loan.
no dealer will let you charge an entire car. The best I've ever heard of was $5k. Most will only allow $1-2k tops.
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If you go the used Accord/Camry route, explore using a home equity loan instead of the typical used car financing for the tax deductible interest. I would think the way to make the most of the purchase is find a dealer that will let you buy the car on a cc for the miles then pay it off with the home equity loan.
no dealer will let you charge an entire car. The best I've ever heard of was $5k. Most will only allow $1-2k tops.
I did 1/2 cash and 1/2 credit on a $16k vehicle. I am in the market for a new/different vehicle as well. It's minivan time!
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Kat Kid, I'm really good at selling cars on craigslist.org. If you need some tips just let me know.
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Malibu or Altima.
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Kat Kid, I'm really good at selling cars on craigslist.org. If you need some tips just let me know.
I'm thinking of doing this rather than trading my car in. Might be a hassle though. Tips?
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Pro tip: smash your current car into a median, claim that a huge black SUV was "about to smash into you" and drove away, and collect premium insurance money back to pay for your new car in full. :kstategrad: :gocho:
Oh and I'd go with a 2002 VW Pasat, hunter green, and only has 88,000 miles on it. :dance:
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ok, we're to the point now where we are going to make this a board project. kk, when you finally ready to buy, _33 will help you craigslist the current car and then all of us will coordinate the effort to help you purchase once you have specific vehicle in mind. we'll have people in charge of calling certain dealers and other people in charge of finding the best loan rate, etc. this is going to be great!
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fusion kills malibu fyi
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Pretty sure Jordy has alreasy done all the leg work for you simple minded losers.
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Kat Kid, I'm really good at selling cars on craigslist.org. If you need some tips just let me know.
I'm thinking of doing this rather than trading my car in. Might be a hassle though. Tips?
Price your car exactly what it is worth, or maybe even a little below. This will enable you to sell your car very quickly and not have to haggle with anyone over price. There are tons of idiots overpricing their cars by thousands of dollars on craigslist hoping someone will overpay. No one will overpay. Buyers are very educated. Price it right, get tons of people interested and you can stay firm on your price and still sell quickly.
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fusion kills malibu fyi
yep
we've got a 2008, it's been great.
shut up no it hasn't
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You could also get a nice Evo or Subaru for that money.
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fusion kills malibu fyi
yep
we've got a 2008, it's been great.
shut up no it hasn't
I guess I have had to do 2 things to it:
Replace the battery
Replace the driver's door inside handle($30 part)
The small oval trim bezel around the shifter button broke....haven't bothered replacing it.
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fusion kills malibu fyi
yep
we've got a 2008, it's been great.
shut up no it hasn't
I guess I have had to do 2 things to it:
Replace the battery
Replace the driver's door inside handle($30 part)
The small oval trim bezel around the shifter button broke....haven't bothered replacing it.
Yikes. Lemon law?
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ok, we're to the point now where we are going to make this a board project. kk, when you finally ready to buy, _33 will help you craigslist the current car and then all of us will coordinate the effort to help you purchase once you have specific vehicle in mind. we'll have people in charge of calling certain dealers and other people in charge of finding the best loan rate, etc. this is going to be great!
I knew I could count on team goEMAW.
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VW cc's are good looking cars that would fit your range as well
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make sure your car can be serviced in your area. ms tobias' VW was a total pita to get to wichita for service when it would break (often)
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he's not getting a vw you guys.
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http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0611
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http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0611
Fusion doesn't make it because final assembly is in Mexico.
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had a fusion rental car and it was a noisy POS. I wouldn't judge a car on a rental though.
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Pro tip: smash your current car into a median, claim that a huge black SUV was "about to smash into you" and drove away, and collect premium insurance money back to pay for your new car in full. :kstategrad: :gocho:
Oh and I'd go with a 2002 VW Pasat, hunter green, and only has 88,000 miles on it. :dance:
Interesting buy. Didn't like the Hummer you rented?
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Pro tip: smash your current car into a median, claim that a huge black SUV was "about to smash into you" and drove away, and collect premium insurance money back to pay for your new car in full. :kstategrad: :gocho:
Oh and I'd go with a 2002 VW Pasat, hunter green, and only has 88,000 miles on it. :dance:
I'd say go with this. Think of all the sweet coin your insurance agent will dole out for your 99 saturn.
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If you go the used Accord/Camry route, explore using a home equity loan instead of the typical used car financing for the tax deductible interest. I would think the way to make the most of the purchase is find a dealer that will let you buy the car on a cc for the miles then pay it off with the home equity loan.
no dealer will let you charge an entire car. The best I've ever heard of was $5k. Most will only allow $1-2k tops.
I did 1/2 cash and 1/2 credit on a $16k vehicle. I am in the market for a new/different vehicle as well. It's minivan time!
Nice, the dealer only let me put 5k on a card
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The Grand Cherokee is pretty badass.
Most people want a boring car, though. Were you serious you wanted something fun or are you looking for a Camry (which are great, but not fun)
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I think it's fun relative to a 99 saturn.
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I think it's fun relative to a 99 saturn.
basically any car will be more fun to drive than the car I currently drive. Just a CD player and cruise control will be immense.
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Pro tip: smash your current car into a median, claim that a huge black SUV was "about to smash into you" and drove away, and collect premium insurance money back to pay for your new car in full. :kstategrad: :gocho:
Oh and I'd go with a 2002 VW Pasat, hunter green, and only has 88,000 miles on it. :dance:
I'd say go with this. Think of all the sweet coin your insurance agent will dole out for your 99 saturn.
Oh man! Burn Fanning BURN! LOL!
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WRX Impreza's are fun
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I really want an Audi A3. #bayareaminivan
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Have you considered getting another versa?
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Nissan Juke?
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hopefully all of you are investing every penny you make and thats why you drive/recommend such shitty cars. very smart decision, cars are a waste of money.
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hopefully all of you are investing every penny you make and thats why you drive/recommend such shitty cars. very smart decision, cars are a waste of money.
Dunno kc, there is nothing like cruising around in a new (to you) vehicle. :driving:
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I really want an Audi A3. #bayareaminivan
Those are so gay.
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I really want an Audi A3. #bayareaminivan
Those are so gay.
yeah, now I really want one.
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Here is how I got a good deal on a new car after I figured out exactly what I wanted. First, I went to the local place and got a qoute from them. Then I emailed every dealership that sold the same brand in about a 3 hour radius asking if they could beat that price. When I got a qoute that was significantly below kbb/edmunds/ etc I took it into the local place and they matched the price with no hassle.
goEMAW.com user CanConfirm using this strategy as we speak to start a bidding war between a few dealers. goEMAW saves the day again. :gocho:
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I emailed every dealership that sold the same brand in about a 3 hour radius asking if they could beat that price. When I got a qoute that was significantly below kbb/edmunds/ etc I took it into the local place and they matched the price with no hassle.
my local dealer lolled @ me and told me the quote i had was a scam, so i had to drive 3 hours to buy a car.
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I like driving a long way to buy a car. Because then you get to drive a long way back in your brand new car. ;)
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I emailed every dealership that sold the same brand in about a 3 hour radius asking if they could beat that price. When I got a qoute that was significantly below kbb/edmunds/ etc I took it into the local place and they matched the price with no hassle.
my local dealer lolled @ me and told me the quote i had was a scam, so i had to drive 3 hours to buy a car.
I hope you drove it to their lot with proof of what you paid for it and told them you were going to tell everyone you know not to buy from them because they are over priced.
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Buy used, not new, but get something under 3 years / 36,000 miles.
I second the Ford Fusion recommendation. I have a 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid (bought it new, but at least I got a hefty tax credit at the time), and I love the hell out of it. Ford has come a long way. I get 40 mpg.
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I really just don't like the feel or look of pretty much any American car. There are a few exceptions, but mostly I prefer driving Japanese now I think. Now that our post-WWII advantage has been completely eliminated, woof.
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I really just don't like the feel or look of pretty much any American car. There are a few exceptions, but mostly I prefer driving Japanese now I think. Now that our post-WWII advantage has been completely eliminated, woof.
I really like the look and feel of most newer Fords. The Focus, Fusion, Edge, and Explorer all look good and are quality cars. They're by far the best American brand right now. Other American carmakers only make like one good car each. Jeep for example makes the amazing Grand Cherokee and then like six piece of crap cars that only an idiot would buy.
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I really just don't like the feel or look of pretty much any American car. There are a few exceptions, but mostly I prefer driving Japanese now I think. Now that our post-WWII advantage has been completely eliminated, woof.
I really like the look and feel of most newer Fords. The Focus, Fusion, Edge, and Explorer all look good and are quality cars. They're by far the best American brand right now. Other American carmakers only make like one good car each. Jeep for example makes the amazing Grand Cherokee and then like six piece of crap cars that only an idiot would buy.
Yeah the Ford Edge is rough ridin' HOT. Specially the Sport edition with those rims. Also the Ford Escape is pretty great.
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Kia optima
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Nobody really cares what you drive. I would just buy a cheap car and then use the leftover money to go on vacation in China or Turkey or the Czech Republic or Australia, or anyplace fun like that, really.
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I hope you drove it to their lot with proof of what you paid for it and told them you were going to tell everyone you know not to buy from them because they are over priced.
have no fear, the world will hear of this outrage.
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Buy used, not new, but get something under 3 years / 36,000 miles.
the market's upside down right now, at least on small cars. you can get a better deal on new than on a low-mileage used.
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Nobody really cares what you drive. I would just buy a cheap car and then use the leftover money to go on vacation in China or Turkey or the Czech Republic or Australia, or anyplace fun like that, really.
Who said anything about caring what other people think?
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I really just don't like the feel or look of pretty much any American car. There are a few exceptions, but mostly I prefer driving Japanese now I think. Now that our post-WWII advantage has been completely eliminated, woof.
I really like the look and feel of most newer Fords. The Focus, Fusion, Edge, and Explorer all look good and are quality cars. They're by far the best American brand right now. Other American carmakers only make like one good car each. Jeep for example makes the amazing Grand Cherokee and then like six piece of crap cars that only an idiot would buy.
Yeah the Ford Edge is rough ridin' HOT. Specially the Sport edition with those rims. Also the Ford Escape is pretty great.
:facepalm:
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Alright. Time to fire this back up. Wife is looking on her ipad.
Cars she has shown me:
Subaru, Jeep Patriot, Ford Fusion
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Alright. Time to fire this back up. Wife is looking on her ipad.
Cars she has shown me:
Subaru, Jeep Patriot, Ford Fusion
those are really different cars. jeeps are complete crap, too.
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How many more bambinos?
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Alright. Time to fire this back up. Wife is looking on her ipad.
Cars she has shown me:
Subaru, Jeep Patriot, Ford Fusion
those are really different cars. jeeps are complete crap, too.
yeah, I was like "wasn't that just recalled?" However, we just passed the Jeep manufacturing plant in Schaumburg and I think she is homesick.
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we just passed the Jeep manufacturing plant in Schaumburg and I think she is homesick.
lay down the law, kat kid.
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Cargurus.com will give you prices at a lot of local dealerships, once you know what you want. I'm looking for a car right now and I'm having trouble even getting sales people to call me back :(
I really like the look of the fusion
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You could get the Patriot and then get a tattoo of an eagle on your bicep,.
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I would highly highly recommend a Subaru. My wife rolls deep in a Tribeca and its wonderful.
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My gf has a '10 legacy. Awd is good and the space is ridiculous. Gas mileage really good for Awd.
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Cargurus.com will give you prices at a lot of local dealerships, once you know what you want.
this is pretty good for figuring out what you should pay.
http://www.truecar.com/
this is even better.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef17997/
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Cargurus.com will give you prices at a lot of local dealerships, once you know what you want.
this is pretty good for figuring out what you should pay.
http://www.truecar.com/
this is even better.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef17997/
awesome.
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buy an audi
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buy an audi
I would already have one if I was an Asian exchange student at K-State.
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buy an audi
I would already have one if I was an Asian exchange student at K-State.
As far as I'm concerned, you are an Asian exchange student at K-State until proven otherwise.
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Anybody have experience with late model Hyundai's? Generally have heard good things.
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Anybody have experience with late model Hyundai's? Generally have heard good things.
i have an elantra. basically happy with it, but i've only had it 6 months.
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Fiance has an 2013 Elantra. it's nice. great MPG. and apparently they messed up on the MPG calculations, so she gets a check for like $50 every few months. so, there's that.
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buy an audi
I would already have one if I was an Asian exchange student at K-State.
It's like a car show every day.
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Anybody have experience with late model Hyundai's? Generally have heard good things.
Their warranties are really something. Also, if you compare Hyundais to competitors with edmunds.com's True Cost To Own feature they usually come out on top.
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its time for me to get a new car. the 5 series window is just too much to bare.
looking for a small SUV type. nothing sucky, though. i dont want a RAV4 or CR-V. also it has to be nicer than a 2004 jetta (no reason).
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thanks for all the help, you guys!
time to get rid of the 5-series today :ksu:
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get the smallish lexus suv
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About a month ago I upgraded my piece of junk 2000 Ford Taurus with a 2013 Chevy Equinox LTZ. I spent a little more than I probably should have. I went with all the bells and whistles (via Transformer $). It was the one purchase I actually needed.
However, in hindsight, I could have gotten by with just an LT. I spent around 5k more than I wanted to originally, but oh well.
KSUBlumpkin gf has a 2013 Ford Fusion. I like that car more than my Equinox. I would highly recommend this car to anyone looking for an affordable sedan. My brother just got a 2014 Ford Focus and, while it is nice, it isn't as good as the fusion. He does love the 37 mpg the focus offers.
Buying a car sucks and I researched like crazy. I pinned one dealership against two others to get the best price possible. I would bring in offer sheets to each of the dealers and they did all the haggling for me.
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Anybody have experience with late model Hyundai's? Generally have heard good things.
we have an 08 Santa Fe and my parents have a 13 Santa Fe. Both have been very solid.
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we've had my car for almost ten years now and i want to keep it for another ten. will it make it? be sure to check this thread out in 2013 to find out! car dorks i swear it takes all types.
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we've had my car for almost ten years now and i want to keep it for another ten. will it make it? be sure to check this thread out in 2013 to find out! car dorks i swear it takes all types.
:D
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we've had my car for almost ten years now and i want to keep it for another ten. will it make it? be sure to check this thread out in 2013 to find out! car dorks i swear it takes all types.
:D
drugs
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This should be in a "how to sell a car" thread.
http://enid.craigslist.org/cto/4119280944.html%3C/div%3E
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i got a good laugh in :thumbs:
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Work like a Dickensian Orphan :love:
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Work like a Dickensian Orphan :love:
yes that was absolutely amazing.
also this one was pretty good.
-It leaks a little oil. How much? Not enough for me to care. It has 220,000 miles, Poindexter!
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Why are you such a dick?
Everything is relative; you should see my friends.
i should use thismore
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That piece of crap isn't even worth 1000. What a gross hick
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That piece of crap isn't even worth 1000. What a gross hick
honda civic owner outed
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That piece of crap isn't even worth 1000. What a gross hick
honda civic owner outed
volkwagon jetta owner outed
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That piece of crap isn't even worth 1000. What a gross hick
honda civic owner outed
volkwagon jetta owner outed
have i not taken you for a ride in the 5 series?