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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: CHONGS on April 05, 2012, 10:12:03 PM
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Below are four coaches, you can probably guess who they are if you try hard enough. I show their coaching as a function of time (their first year [at least that I have stats for] is the dot then just follow the arrow). The band of color are contour levels for expected winning percentage given the offensive and defensive efficiency. I can add more coaches as I go along, but I thought some might think this interesting.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fcoach_path01.png&hash=309ad18c44f19cae3b7ffe956d300a6d23a833cc)
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That makes my head hurt.
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Boy, I wouldn't want that blue guy anywhere around my team. Looks like a real heart breaker.
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Boy, I wouldn't want that blue guy anywhere around my team. Looks like a real heart breaker.
:cry:
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What arrows are the good ones?
T-Y Swifty
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What arrows are the good ones?
T-Y Swifty
Idk, but for whatever reason i feel like the blue line is the one we shouldn't associate ourselves with in any way shape or form.
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I'm guessing Black is FM. Blue is BW, and the other two are BW's new assistants.
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my guesses (w/o looking @kenpom):
blue: weber
black: self
purple: frank
red is tough: Mark Fox @ UGA?
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my guesses (w/o looking @kenpom):
blue: weber
black: self
purple: frank
red is tough: Mark Fox @ UGA?
eff. I think you're right. I didn't actually count the vectors. Bravo.
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maybe blue is Self and black is oscar. kind of makes more sense maybe
edit: just realized i was reading this wrong.
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OK, I looked at 2008 coaching changes and I'm pretty sure the red is Darrin Horn.
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rough ridin' Self. He's a monster.
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chings :love:
can't figure out who red is. Fox has been at UGA for 4 years. but here his OE is below 100. looking at the Chings chart it seems OE might be inflated. i'll go w/ michigancat and say it's fox.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/teams/georgia/team_stats?season=2011-2012&chart=efficiency&type=all#chart
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don't get it.
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the closer you are to the bottom right the better
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jamphat.com%2Frap%2Fjamphat_files%2Fimage026.jpg&hash=7123e3730dd1bc5ac6167642b777c54963204fc3)
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Black = Self
Purple = Frank
Blue = Webz
Red = DOC!!
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I miss Spirograph.
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The thing that made me think red wasn't doc was that he has many more years of data so I figured chingon would have used them. I like Rusty's Mark Fox call.
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is each change in direction a year?
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is each change in direction a year?
no
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I would actually like to see Doc's
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Since Chingon made it, the red coach is Tubberville
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Red Huggy?
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is each change in direction a year?
no
I thought each was a point was a year as well. If this is not the case, please explain it. It looks to me like there are 5 data points for the purple (Frank), 9 for the Black (Self), 9 for the blue (Weber), and 4 for the red (unknown). Also, I went back and looked at the coaching changes 4 years ago and I can't figure out who the red would be unless a datapoint is missing.
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Could red be one of our new assistants or past coaches? How many years was Asbury here?
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is each change in direction a year?
no
I thought each was a point was a year as well. If this is not the case, please explain it. It looks to me like there are 5 data points for the purple (Frank), 9 for the Black (Self), 9 for the blue (Weber), and 4 for the red (unknown). Also, I went back and looked at the coaching changes 4 years ago and I can't figure out who the red would be unless a datapoint is missing.
it's obviously years you dumbasses
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do doc do doc!
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Yes each vertex is a year. You read the plot by starting at the dot and moving in the direction of the arrows (the arrows are places in the middle of the path and at the end).
No has had the red on correct yet... how quickly we forget him.
*on preview I did Doc last night and will up load it here in a second
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No has had the red on correct yet... how quickly we forget him.
damn
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fcoach_path02.png&hash=e4f48ce2abddc0733e1ffca7f855989b2b91a72b)
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Red = wooly?
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Red=Greg McDermott?
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is each change in direction a year?
no
I thought each was a point was a year as well. If this is not the case, please explain it. It looks to me like there are 5 data points for the purple (Frank), 9 for the Black (Self), 9 for the blue (Weber), and 4 for the red (unknown). Also, I went back and looked at the coaching changes 4 years ago and I can't figure out who the red would be unless a datapoint is missing.
it's obviously years you dumbasses
:facepalm: I probably deserved that.
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This thread makes my head hurt. :clac:
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Red = wooly?
yes, I think this is correct. Kenpom only has 4 of Wooly's KSU seasons.
My initial guess for white is Asbury, but the kenpom thing for Wooly gives me pause.
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any requestos? I like making these
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what is with the impossibly bad arrow at the end of white?
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Red = wooly?
yes, I think this is correct. Kenpom only has 4 of Wooly's KSU seasons.
My initial guess for white is Asbury, but the kenpom thing for Wooly gives me pause.
White is Doc I thought
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what is with the impossibly bad arrow at the end of white?
Docs last year:
OE = 100.2
DE = 99.9
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any requestos? I like making these
Jack Hartman
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what is with the impossibly bad arrow at the end of white?
Docs last year:
OE = 100.2
DE = 99.9
lol doc
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any requestos? I like making these
Jack Hartman
you get me the data and I will
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any requestos? I like making these
I would like to see one for Pastner, Heath, Marshall and Buzz please
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dana altman at oregon, fox georgia
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any requestos? I like making these
I would like to see one for Pastner, Heath, Marshall and Buzz please
never mind I misread
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jank
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Jank
fox
Lowrey
webber
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Request:
Greg Mcdermott @ UNI
Greg Mcdermott @ ISU
Greg Mcdermott @ CU
Dana Altman @ CU
Dana Altman @ UO
all on one graph.
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Request:
Greg Mcdermott @ UNI
Greg Mcdermott @ ISU
Greg Mcdermott @ CU
Dana Altman @ CU
Dana Altman @ UO
all on one graph.
this is an interesting one
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:love: :love: :love: these.
Thanks, Chingon
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Chings, these things are great. Fantastic idea. Except for the part where Weber's plot makes me cry.
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Here is Dana@Oregon (purple), Mark Fox@UGA (blue), Jank (red)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_dmt.png&hash=5f1df7c6fb516a5f81178fc58536e464b3b0c094)
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nice recovery for the jankster. I like these a lot chings.
i will pay you for charts like this when I start my coaching search firm. Or maybe you can just join my coaching search form.
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pastner (purple), buzz@Marq (blue), Heath@USF (red), Gregg Marshall@WSU (black)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_jbsg.png&hash=0a479bea5d19bda80b6a8073796062d43ca817a0)
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marshall, wow.
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Blue -> Dana Altman (light @CU, dark @OU)
Red -> Greg McDermott (light @UNI, dark@ISU, darker@CU)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_dana_mcneck.png&hash=24a3852e30762d94a75e48ccf9049fbaf4034ebd)
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wow, dana @ Creighton is interesting.
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McNeck constantly getting better, then starting over at new school
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Bunch of nerds on here. Totally going to be stealing some lunch money next pak
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Blue -> Dana Altman (light @CU, dark @OU)
Red -> Greg McDermott (light @UNI, dark@ISU, darker@CU)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_dana_mcneck.png&hash=24a3852e30762d94a75e48ccf9049fbaf4034ebd)
Is it possible to have the paths change color when there's a coaching change? So we could see Wooly, Huggs, and Frank all in one path? I think something like Kelvin->Capel->Kruger would be interesting.
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Blue -> Dana Altman (light @CU, dark @OU)
Red -> Greg McDermott (light @UNI, dark@ISU, darker@CU)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_dana_mcneck.png&hash=24a3852e30762d94a75e48ccf9049fbaf4034ebd)
Is it possible to have the paths change color when there's a coaching change? So we could see Wooly, Huggs, and Frank all in one path? I think something like Kelvin->Capel->Kruger would be interesting.
yeah thats possible lemme work on it
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KSU Hoop since 2003
Blue = Wooly
Red = Bob
Purple = Frank
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_ksu.png&hash=28b7a8243334ceeadd9edee0583387e57323b2b4)
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People who felt Martin was reaching his limit as a coach have a pretty good picture to back it up here. His teams seemed to follow the same pattern every year. It would be interesting to chart his progress at SC once he gets his type of players in there.
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People who felt Martin was reaching his limit as a coach have a pretty good picture to back it up here. His teams seemed to follow the same pattern every year. It would be interesting to chart his progress at SC once he gets his type of players in there.
It's odd you don't think the trend oscar exhibited says anything meaningful.
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chingon, these are interesting. i think the magnitude of movements and the consistency of space occupied are more interesting/important than vector direction.
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Chingon, do you have numbers from when oscar was a coach and Lowry was his assistant at SIU?
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chingon, these are interesting. i think the magnitude of movements and the consistency of space occupied are more interesting/important than vector direction.
I had orginally made these with just magnitde (trying to see if coaches completed an orbit of sorts and then I was going calculate this area), but I noticed that putting the points in a order painted a picture of a direction within a program. There is a difference between a coach who trends to the lower left and one who trends to the upper right.
The middle left is the SLTH zone.
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Chingon, do you have numbers from when oscar was a coach and Lowry was his assistant at SIU?
All i have immediately is 2003
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Do Gottlieb :excited:
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Where is the data point at?
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KSU Hoop since 2003
Blue = Wooly
Red = Bob
Purple = Frank
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_ksu.png&hash=28b7a8243334ceeadd9edee0583387e57323b2b4)
this is fascinating. It looks like we really got screwed Huggins' year.
Could you do Gottfried -> Grant, Sendek -> Lowe -> Gottfried, Roberts -> Lavin, and Morgan -> McDermott -> Hoiberg?
I mean I really could look at this crap all day. If I give you too much don't feel bad by telling me to eff off.
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Where is the data point at?
White dot is SIU 2003
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_ksu_plus_SIU2003.png&hash=ea6959cb5ad86404d5af8c5a09b31e72faf38de2)
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Where is the data point at?
White dot is SIU 2003
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_ksu_plus_SIU2003.png&hash=ea6959cb5ad86404d5af8c5a09b31e72faf38de2)
:sdeek:
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Where is the data point at?
White dot is SIU 2003
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_ksu_plus_SIU2003.png&hash=ea6959cb5ad86404d5af8c5a09b31e72faf38de2)
:runaway:
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:sdeek:
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Where is the data point at?
White dot is SIU 2003
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_ksu_plus_SIU2003.png&hash=ea6959cb5ad86404d5af8c5a09b31e72faf38de2)
:sdeek:
We're so mumped.
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One point does not a path make, but I'm not so sure we want to see the rest of the story. I'm going to pretend I never saw this. I can't let it bring me down from my false sense of security Weber has lulled me into the past couple of days.
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chingon, these are interesting. i think the magnitude of movements and the consistency of space occupied are more interesting/important than vector direction.
I think this is particularly true of the Wooly/Hugs/Martin one. On the other hand, the coaches with consistent vector direction are interesting too, if just for how unusual they are (Marshall).
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chingon, these are interesting. i think the magnitude of movements and the consistency of space occupied are more interesting/important than vector direction.
I think this is particularly true of the Wooly/Hugs/Martin one. On the other hand, the coaches with consistent vector direction are interesting too, if just for how unusual they are (Marshall).
Yeah, it's cool how the general area shifts when Huggins is hired.
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Now I'm looking back at that first plot, and good grief, Weber is all over the damn place.
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_Bama.png&hash=38cc71952c1ff4774fe0aa2c5c65b6485152cf2f)
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If we can retain Angel, next years data point will hopefully be somewhere within the circle Martin was drawing. After that, all bets are off as our players will probably have transitioned fully away from Martin's style of ball.
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_NCState.png&hash=c0612670458c9bda82d2ddc59dd2e8fe2c7a8ced)
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Did we ever find out who red was on the first graph?
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Did we ever find out who red was on the first graph?
wooly, he didn't have data for all the years (SHOULD HAVE DISCLOSED THIS :curse: )
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_IowaSt.png&hash=a72fef98ea1715de5e76e5aa0e71da2a0b9e5e3c)
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How about one for SC the last several years?
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Large magnitude shifts that are more or less parallel with expected winning percentage strata are really weird, but they are awesome!
:excited:
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_Cocks.png&hash=1f1b3979ee5b4a4fec2ad30276b81721218eb671)
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my god, they are just as bad as nebraska.....FM left us for nebraska
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Thanks for your work Chingon. Top notch.
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between Chingon and _Fan I feel really dumb sometimes.
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my god, they are just as bad as nebraska.....FM left us for nebraska
To be fair, they've never made a commitment to basketball and I believe they are serious about giving it a try. Whether or not their fans are is a different story. It goes to show how bad things had gotten for Frank to leave everything he had going for him here.
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People who felt Martin was reaching his limit as a coach have a pretty good picture to back it up here. His teams seemed to follow the same pattern every year. It would be interesting to chart his progress at SC once he gets his type of players in there.
Except that the 12-13 team probably would have been similar to the 09-10 graph. That is a pretty good limit imo, and one that yields a high NCAA seed and a shot at a conference title every 4-5 years.
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Not really relevant to the discussion, but would be interesting to see. a group of K, Roy, Self, Cal, Calhoun, Donovan and maybe Izzo. Would also be interesting to see the NCAA champs from 2002-03 to present graphed.
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Can anyone think of another time a successful coach made a step down this drastic without being fired?
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Dana Altman was at Arkansas for a day before going to Creighton :dunno:
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_Champ.png&hash=dd3746a4ff8f182d28dc58d12351eb8471ecc1f5)
the arrow direction is simply to aid in determining which team is which (starting with 2003)
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My goodness, that '08 Kansas team was a monster. AND WE TOTALLY BEAT THEM ONCE!
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_Champ.png&hash=dd3746a4ff8f182d28dc58d12351eb8471ecc1f5)
the arrow direction is simply to aid in determining which team is which (starting with 2003)
I am I correct in stating the 2008 KU team is the best of all championship teams since 2003? :tsc:
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_Champ.png&hash=dd3746a4ff8f182d28dc58d12351eb8471ecc1f5)
the arrow direction is simply to aid in determining which team is which (starting with 2003)
I am I correct in stating the 2008 KU team is the best of all championship teams since 2003? :tsc:
I think it's the 2007 Florida Gators.
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_Cocks.png&hash=1f1b3979ee5b4a4fec2ad30276b81721218eb671)
lol, have fun frank!
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_Champ.png&hash=dd3746a4ff8f182d28dc58d12351eb8471ecc1f5)
the arrow direction is simply to aid in determining which team is which (starting with 2003)
I am I correct in stating the 2008 KU team is the best of all championship teams since 2003? :tsc:
I think it's the 2007 Florida Gators.
Well then, you'd be wrong. It matches KU from the first chart.
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_Champ.png&hash=dd3746a4ff8f182d28dc58d12351eb8471ecc1f5)
the arrow direction is simply to aid in determining which team is which (starting with 2003)
I am I correct in stating the 2008 KU team is the best of all championship teams since 2003? :tsc:
I think it's the 2007 Florida Gators.
Well then, you'd be wrong. It matches KU from the first chart.
Confirmed
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The band of color are contour levels for expected winning percentage given the offensive and defensive efficiency.
Where does this data come from?
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The band of color are contour levels for expected winning percentage given the offensive and defensive efficiency.
Where does this data come from?
its not data, but the band are a formula of my own accord based on log5 principles.
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its not data, but the band are a formula of my own accord based on log5 principles.
:thumbs: It seems to do alright.
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Don't know if its possible or not, but could you chart games from a singular season? Say, oscar before and after he lost the Illini?
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Don't know if its possible or not, but could you chart games from a singular season? Say, oscar before and after he lost the Illini?
I could sure
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_UI2012.png&hash=72f49e9a9a93df71b6222242bad51bfa65b980a6)
but remeber game to game there is a lot of variance.
blue = nonconf
orange = conf
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_KSU2012.png&hash=e00252960ccc30beb6b323d9220d7561efe6fe92)
Purple = noncon
yellow= conf+tourn
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_KSU2012.png&hash=e00252960ccc30beb6b323d9220d7561efe6fe92)
Purple = noncon
yellow= conf+tourn
LOL
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yeah I don't think its very useful to look at. Almost every team will end the year in the black area (because they lost). Too much variance between strength of opponent and what not.
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yeah I don't think its very useful to look at. Almost every team will end the year in the black area (because they lost). Too much variance between strength of opponent and what not.
I think the yearly trends are fantastic though. Thanks again for doing them. How about Norm Roberts -> Steve Lavin and FAU w/ Mike Jarvis and the guy before him?
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can I get the brad pitt role when the chingonball movie is made
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Siu...weber-painter-lowrey. Please. :popcorn:
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drew-barnes-ford
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yeah I don't think its very useful to look at. Almost every team will end the year in the black area (because they lost). Too much variance between strength of opponent and what not.
I think the yearly trends are fantastic though. Thanks again for doing them. How about Norm Roberts -> Steve Lavin and FAU w/ Mike Jarvis and the guy before him?
Yes, yearly trends are much better. Thanks for the chart though.
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what is with the impossibly bad arrow at the end of white?
Docs last year:
OE = 100.2
DE = 99.9
lol doc
Doc 80-Weber 57
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi95.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl150%2Finterficio%2Fpaths_Champ.png&hash=dd3746a4ff8f182d28dc58d12351eb8471ecc1f5)
the arrow direction is simply to aid in determining which team is which (starting with 2003)
I am I correct in stating the 2008 KU team is the best of all championship teams since 2003? :tsc:
I think it's the 2007 Florida Gators.
Obviously according to the metrics KU is numero uno, but you have to remember that the 06-07 Florida team kind of lollygagged through the regular season but was completely dominant in the tournament. KU did beat that FLA team with basically their same squad the year before (add Julian Wright).
I'm surprised that the 2004 UCONN team rated so poorly.
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Siu...weber-painter-lowrey. Please. :popcorn:
also all three for their whole hc careers, pretty please