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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Football => Topic started by: The Manhatter on February 02, 2012, 10:44:18 AM
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The term was raised by a poster on the GPC board when discussing it.
I can't ignore the fact that Snyder signed 8 kids who are very young in age for their respective classes. That includes two of the greyshirts from last year. While I would doubt it is as deliberate as it appears as detailed of a guy Snyder has always been it wouldn't be something that he was unaware of when assessing a prospect. Whether it tipped the scales somewhat in the decision to offer a kid seems questionable to say the least but it's worth consideration. For kids in that 16-19 age range a time window a period of 6 months to a year can be HUGE in their development both physically and mentally.
Both Morgan Burns (May 19, '93) and Dante Barnett (June 14, '93), greyshirts from the '11 class, will not turn 19 until after spring ball this season.
Two wide receiver signees, Vernon Vaughn (August 26, '94) and DeAnte Burton (July 12, '94), are both extremely young for their class.
Bender (April 1, '94)
Epps (May 18, '94)
Leverett (April 24, '94)
Starks (June 6, '94)
something to ponder.
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That's a pretty cool thought. You've read the Outliers, right?
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That's a pretty cool thought. You've read the Outliers, right?
No. Copy and Paste please.
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Sometimes I wish Snyder would just recruit really good players.
It is fun to read some of these far reaching theories that people will come up with to rationalize why we don't, though. It is entertaining. Not like being entertained because our coach flew a helicopter to a recruiting visit. But fun and entertaining, in our own little way.
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honestly, given snyder's penchant for detail, I think you have to be blatantly ignorant to suggest this as mere coincidence.
I look at Burton on film...that is a legit D-1 prospect but he didn't look that way as a soph or junior. Snyder had to have taken his age into consideration. It's quite apparent to me that if Burton is a member of the '13 class he's got some bigs coming in on him because schools like Baylor were finding out about him and picking up interest...but by then it was far too late. His recruitment started a few years ago and KSU was on him the entire way...of course, two years ago, he was 6' 170lbs and nowhere near as fast as he is today. This coupled with that study done by ESPN which stated that Texas prospects, while graded higher during recruiting, are not more likely to develop into stars than kids from any other state. The suggestion was that kids from Texas have more polish coming out of the prep ranks and closer to their potential than kids from many other states. As detailed of a cat as Snyder is I bet you he didn't need such a study to make an educated guess of that being the case.
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That's a pretty cool thought. You've read the Outliers, right?
No. Copy and Paste please.
Most Canadian NHL players are born early in the year because of how their Youth Hockey system works
Hatter's thought made me think of that. Unlike hockey, the real transformation for MOST football players occurs once they're in a college weightroom and development, so there is more potential for improving an undervalued player.
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Hatter's thought made me think of that. Unlike hockey, the real transformation for MOST football players occurs once they're in a college weightroom and development, so there is more potential for improving an undervalued player.
That sounds really interesting. Is the whole book sports related or just outliers in general?
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Sometimes I wish Snyder would just recruit really good players.
It is fun to read some of these far reaching theories that people will come up with to rationalize why we don't, though. It is entertaining. Not like being entertained because our coach flew a helicopter to a recruiting visit. But fun and entertaining, in our own little way.
Hey man, we'd all love to see KSU sign a bunch of 4 and 5 star kids. That isn't going to happen under Snyder and never has but I'm quite certain the performance or end result on the field is FAR MORE IMPORTANT to you or I than how our team rankings look on February 1st. We went 10-2 for a reason this past year and not all of it is "scheme doctor" crap. He does have some players.
I look at Vernon Vaughn's video, for example. The kid makes a TON of great catches demonstrating body control, hands, and advanced skills in the passing game you can't teach. But he was injured this year and that video comes from the '10 season after he had just turned 16. That is very young. He doesn't look THAT fast or sudden and I'm quite certain Snyder was aware of that so why did he offer the kid so early? Probably because he knows the kid could advance quite a bit physically in the next few years. I know that ESPN scout is far more concerned about skill in the way they rate kids...Vaughn got high marks with them based on his skills that can't be taught.
If you want to complain and bitch about recruiting just for the sake of doing so then that's fine. The man will produce results that can be measured when it counts and you won't be bitching in Sept-Nov but then you can turn to Feb and forget what happened just a few months ago. I'm sure Snyder looks for every edge he can get and in so doing you have to consider what he may or may not be contemplating when he does offer a kid.
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That's a pretty cool thought. You've read the Outliers, right?
No. Copy and Paste please.
Most Canadian NHL players are born early in the year because of how their Youth Hockey system works
Hatter's thought made me think of that. Unlike hockey, the real transformation for MOST football players occurs once they're in a college weightroom and development, so there is more potential for improving an undervalued player.
yeah, the hockey numbers are just insane. stuff like that is super interesting to me. freakonomics has similar things but superfreakonomics or whatever was pretty much a steaming pile of self loving garbage.
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Obviosuly Sndyer has a method of some type and obviously it works pretty well at finding under appreciated talent. Still it would be nice to win some recruiting battles now and then. I'm sure there are kids with BCS offers that were born in July too.
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Hatter's thought made me think of that. Unlike hockey, the real transformation for MOST football players occurs once they're in a college weightroom and development, so there is more potential for improving an undervalued player.
That sounds really interesting. Is the whole book sports related or just outliers in general?
very general
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Obviosuly Sndyer has a method of some type and obviously it works pretty well at finding under appreciated talent. Still it would be nice to win some recruiting battles now and then. I'm sure there are kids with BCS offers that were born in July too.
sure there are kids who signed elsewhere that are young. I'm more concerned about our signing class then the others. I think it's interesting to note that of the 20 high school signees in this class, 40% are pretty young for their respective classes. I am quite certain the number of high school seniors among the both the general high school population AND the number D-1 football prospects who turn 18 after April of their senior year is nowhere near 40%.
In addition to that I'm also fairly certain most college football coaches can look at a 16-18 year old and distinguish which kids are closer to their athletic or physical ceilings.
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That's some interesting analysis.
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i love that 'hatter walks a very thin line between gopowertard and goemawtard.
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by no means would i use this 1 example I'm about to mention as constituing anything conclusive in the way of a sample size rather just one example.
Jordy Nelson was a 2003 HS grad...born May 31, 1985. Obviously he was in a remote area from recruiting and was an option QB in high school. He was a good athlete all through high school but he really blossomed physically between his junior and senior years. I saw him run in the final of the boys 100 meter at State as both a junior and senior and the physical difference was noticeable. He ran an 11.2 as a junior and then as a senior he ran a 10.6 breaking his division's state meet record (also did it in the 200) that still stands today. It was obvious that the year's difference between 16 & 17 for Jordy was SIGNIFICANT in terms of speed. Now that doesn't happen to every kid but it certainly does happen. Now had he been 6-8 months older maybe he runs a 10.8 as a junior and more eyes are opened going into his senior season but that wasn't the case. He was also long jumping 23' as a senior opposed to 21' as a junior.
I know many on this board roll their eyes at track numbers...but coaches do pay attention to them or it can certainly cause them to look into a kid.
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Sometimes I wish Snyder would just recruit really good players.
It is fun to read some of these far reaching theories that people will come up with to rationalize why we don't, though. It is entertaining. Not like being entertained because our coach flew a helicopter to a recruiting visit. But fun and entertaining, in our own little way.
Hey man, we'd all love to see KSU sign a bunch of 4 and 5 star kids. That isn't going to happen under Snyder and never has but I'm quite certain the performance or end result on the field is FAR MORE IMPORTANT to you or I than how our team rankings look on February 1st. We went 10-2 for a reason this past year and not all of it is "scheme doctor" crap. He does have some players.
I look at Vernon Vaughn's video, for example. The kid makes a TON of great catches demonstrating body control, hands, and advanced skills in the passing game you can't teach. But he was injured this year and that video comes from the '10 season after he had just turned 16. That is very young. He doesn't look THAT fast or sudden and I'm quite certain Snyder was aware of that so why did he offer the kid so early? Probably because he knows the kid could advance quite a bit physically in the next few years. I know that ESPN scout is far more concerned about skill in the way they rate kids...Vaughn got high marks with them based on his skills that can't be taught.
If you want to complain and bitch about recruiting just for the sake of doing so then that's fine. The man will produce results that can be measured when it counts and you won't be bitching in Sept-Nov but then you can turn to Feb and forget what happened just a few months ago. I'm sure Snyder looks for every edge he can get and in so doing you have to consider what he may or may not be contemplating when he does offer a kid.
LOL...No. Wrong board Hatter.
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i love that 'hatter walks a very thin line between gopowertard and goemawtard.
I don't mind walking that line and I don't mind being a tard. Truth of it is I'm very unimpressed with some of the kids in this class but there are enough that I do like to give me reason not to go off the edge.
The one thing I do know for certain....Snyder only needs a few difference makers on either side of the ball mixed in with a lot of other 3rd, 4th, and 5th year blue collar guys to produce double digit 10 win seasons. That has been proven time and time again. I see enough "potential" difference makers in the past two classes to trust in Snyder and he's also stocking the necessary positions to have many of those 3rd, 4th, and 5th year kids that will be on the field.
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to Hatter's point staff is pumped about J. Jones being a 10.4 kid :emawkid:
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to Hatter's point staff is pumped about J. Jones being a 10.4 kid :emawkid:
He's one I'm not completely sold on. Great character kid, sure. But he's an average athlete and I don't buy that 10.4 (i know what a 10.4 looks like). I think he's a 10.8-10.9 which isn't bad at all but he isn't a 10.4 kid. He can be a solid player for us but Vaughn, West, and Burton are better prospects at wide receiver..in terms of Vaughn and West who are not as fast as Judah they are just simply more skilled.
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You may have a point, but I don't think age is very significant. In Snyder's early years when everyone we played was geared up to try to stop the NU & OU rushing attacks we had Paul Watson, Carl Straw, and Chad May chucking it all over the field. Now that everyone has switched to trying to defend the spread/pass happy style of OSU, OU, MU, TT we have a power running game.
Snyder is a contrarian ala Bill Belichik. If everybody else is recruiting based on NFL combine style measurables, Snyder is going to do something different. It sounded yesterday like he is actually looking at real football stats. Think about guys like Hubert. Or look at Donnie Starks who had 189 solo tackles this fall but doesn't have any of the measurables. That's a ridiculous number of tackles. As Snyder himself said yesterday about Marquez Clark: "“Certainly, the numbers tell you something. You can’t get that kind of yardage without having some skill."
I'm sure Snyder is looking beyond the numbers, but the numbers are a good starting point - especially when nobody else is looking at them.
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I'm so sick of "the examples" like Jordy Nelson and Aqib Talib, those are the rough ridin' exceptions. We suck at football and we definitely suck at recruiting. Eff moneyball analogies, they're Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We're not working with a salary cap. :DroppedMic: :UntuckingMyFuckingShirt: :shakesfist:
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I'm so sick of "the examples" like Jordy Nelson and Aqib Talib, those are the rough ridin' exceptions. We suck at football and we definitely suck at recruiting. Eff moneyball analogies, they're Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We're not working with a salary cup. :DroppedMic: :UntuckingMyFuckingShirt: :shakesfist:
But we don't suck at football.
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Everyone knows I've been one of the biggest assholes about Snyder, and I think Hatter might be onto something, and I think it's fascinating.
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You may have a point, but I don't think age is very significant. In Snyder's early years when everyone we played was geared up to try to stop the NU & OU rushing attacks we had Paul Watson, Carl Straw, and Chad May chucking it all over the field. Now that everyone has switched to trying to defend the spread/pass happy style of OSU, OU, MU, TT we have a power running game.
Snyder is a contrarian ala Bill Belichik. If everybody else is recruiting based on NFL combine style measurables, Snyder is going to do something different. It sounded yesterday like he is actually looking at real football stats. Think about guys like Hubert. Or look at Donnie Starks who had 189 solo tackles this fall but doesn't have any of the measurables. That's a ridiculous number of tackles. As Snyder himself said yesterday about Marquez Clark: "“Certainly, the numbers tell you something. You can’t get that kind of yardage without having some skill."
I'm sure Snyder is looking beyond the numbers, but the numbers are a good starting point - especially when nobody else is looking at them.
First, I think I clearly stated in the OP that "age" was NOT significant but given Snyder's detail it certainly has to be considered as being part of his evaluation. Again, 40% of his high school signees this year were born after April 1st...that is nowhere close to the population of high school seniors and/or D-1 prospects.
Second, the reason Snyder threw it around the yard initially is because he didn't have the horses to run the ball with Nebraska, Colorado, and OU. The short passing game he used could be equated to the 3 pt shot or "keep away" offenses employed by mid-majors in the NCAA tourney. It isn't that he didn't want to run then...he just couldn't run it well enough. Once he started playing those teams and saw their usage of the QB in terms of running the ball and controlling games he wanted that and has never steered away from it. He's not doing it now to be a contrarian...he does it because he feels it is the key to winning at KSU. He wants balance offensively...he doesn't always get it, especially with underclassmen starting at QB, but he wants it. I have researched it and with QBs that have started with him as both juniors and seniors Snyder's QBs will attempt 8 more passes per game as seniors than they did as juniors...so he does strive to throw it more than it appears.
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I'm so sick of "the examples" like Jordy Nelson and Aqib Talib, those are the rough ridin' exceptions. We suck at football and we definitely suck at recruiting. Eff moneyball analogies, they're Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We're not working with a salary cup. :DroppedMic: :UntuckingMyFuckingShirt: :shakesfist:
we suck at "football recruiting", not at "football". It's your ignorance of this very detail that illustrates your ignorance for considering the discussion in this post.
I now suggest you open the nearest window and yell at the top of your lungs. Come back when you feel better.
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I feel better now. I just wanted to see what it felt like to post like OK_Cat. I know we don't suck at football and i'm the guy who tries to make reason for why we recruit 2*'s and 3*'s. :TuckingShirtBackIn:
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You may have a point, but I don't think age is very significant. In Snyder's early years when everyone we played was geared up to try to stop the NU & OU rushing attacks we had Paul Watson, Carl Straw, and Chad May chucking it all over the field. Now that everyone has switched to trying to defend the spread/pass happy style of OSU, OU, MU, TT we have a power running game.
Snyder is a contrarian ala Bill Belichik. If everybody else is recruiting based on NFL combine style measurables, Snyder is going to do something different. It sounded yesterday like he is actually looking at real football stats. Think about guys like Hubert. Or look at Donnie Starks who had 189 solo tackles this fall but doesn't have any of the measurables. That's a ridiculous number of tackles. As Snyder himself said yesterday about Marquez Clark: "“Certainly, the numbers tell you something. You can’t get that kind of yardage without having some skill."
I'm sure Snyder is looking beyond the numbers, but the numbers are a good starting point - especially when nobody else is looking at them.
First, I think I clearly stated in the OP that "age" was NOT significant but given Snyder's detail it certainly has to be considered as being part of his evaluation. Again, 40% of his high school signees this year were born after April 1st...that is nowhere close to the population of high school seniors and/or D-1 prospects.
Second, the reason Snyder threw it around the yard initially is because he didn't have the horses to run the ball with Nebraska, Colorado, and OU. The short passing game he used could be equated to the 3 pt shot or "keep away" offenses employed by mid-majors in the NCAA tourney. It isn't that he didn't want to run then...he just couldn't run it well enough. Once he started playing those teams and saw their usage of the QB in terms of running the ball and controlling games he wanted that and has never steered away from it. He's not doing it now to be a contrarian...he does it because he feels it is the key to winning at KSU. He wants balance offensively...he doesn't always get it, especially with underclassmen starting at QB, but he wants it. I have researched it and with QBs that have started with him as both juniors and seniors Snyder's QBs will attempt 8 more passes per game as seniors than they did as juniors...so he does strive to throw it more than it appears.
Sure, he wants to be balanced. But when everybody else is unbalanced, he will take what he can get and he will appear to be unbalanced in the opposite direction. See Klein's game against Texas last year.
Same theory in recruiting. If everybody is chasing a small group of kids, he's going to look elsewhere. He even admitted this year that it's not worth his time to chase those kids. Of course nobody agrees with him, but it looks like it's working. Gary Pinkel may have a helicopter, but we have the scoreboard.
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I feel better now. I just wanted to see what it felt like to post like OK_Cat. I know we don't suck at football and i'm the guy who tries to make reason for why we recrruit 2*'s and 3*'s. :TuckingShirtBackIn:
I don't even reason 2 and 3 star commits. I watch the video I can find and make my own determinations. I was begging for us to offer Travis Britz when nobody was offering him and wasn't going to offer. I don't see Britz in the way the scouting services do...well, I do see him the way ESPN scout (BITB) rated him. If he plays defense he's not going to give you a pass rush and he's not going to dictate plays in the opponents' backfield but he also won't budge in the running game or make mistakes and he'll play with a motor every snap. He doesn't need to be a difference maker. Now if he's an OLineman then he's a tremendous prospect. He has value to a program and I could give a sh1t if he's a 2 star prospect.
and getting back to the point of the example of Nelson. I'm not saying everybody has to be or will be like Nelson. You can make great gains and be of value to your program and be nothing like Jordy Nelson (who has all pro ability)..those types are rare but serves as an illustration to this very topic.
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Sometimes I wish Snyder would just recruit really good players.
It is fun to read some of these far reaching theories that people will come up with to rationalize why we don't, though. It is entertaining. Not like being entertained because our coach flew a helicopter to a recruiting visit. But fun and entertaining, in our own little way.
Hey man, we'd all love to see KSU sign a bunch of 4 and 5 star kids. That isn't going to happen under Snyder and never has but I'm quite certain the performance or end result on the field is FAR MORE IMPORTANT to you or I than how our team rankings look on February 1st. We went 10-2 for a reason this past year and not all of it is "scheme doctor" crap. He does have some players.
I look at Vernon Vaughn's video, for example. The kid makes a TON of great catches demonstrating body control, hands, and advanced skills in the passing game you can't teach. But he was injured this year and that video comes from the '10 season after he had just turned 16. That is very young. He doesn't look THAT fast or sudden and I'm quite certain Snyder was aware of that so why did he offer the kid so early? Probably because he knows the kid could advance quite a bit physically in the next few years. I know that ESPN scout is far more concerned about skill in the way they rate kids...Vaughn got high marks with them based on his skills that can't be taught.
If you want to complain and bitch about recruiting just for the sake of doing so then that's fine. The man will produce results that can be measured when it counts and you won't be bitching in Sept-Nov but then you can turn to Feb and forget what happened just a few months ago. I'm sure Snyder looks for every edge he can get and in so doing you have to consider what he may or may not be contemplating when he does offer a kid.
LOL...No. Wrong board Hatter.
LOL at the people that think the DOD was built on the backs of classes like the one we just signed.
The DOD was built on solid classes with impact players like Jeff Kelly. And guys like Brent Venables recruiting guys like Jeff Kelly.
The notion that we don't or can't recruit 4 or 5 star talent is convenient fallacy that isn't true.
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Hatter's thought made me think of that. Unlike hockey, the real transformation for MOST football players occurs once they're in a college weightroom and development, so there is more potential for improving an undervalued player.
That sounds really interesting. Is the whole book sports related or just outliers in general?
very general
michigan-did you see when bissenger was just crushing gladwell on twitter a month ago...talking about how much crap outliers was. i didnt understand because i thought outliers was very well argued premise, but i love gladwell. is burton willing to put in his 10,000 hours..that is the real question. :crossfingers:
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Wabash sometimes I think we're so tuckish that we forget how emaw we are. I mean imagine for a second, you're really talented (Hard to imagine) at football. You have no ties to any school because you grew up poor. You live in texas, and you are effing elite (6'4", 4.4-40, 220, WR). Why and the eff would I leave Texas to go to the MIDDLE OF KANSAS? Seriously think about that. We grew to love Manhattan, why do I want to leave Texas for EFFING KANSAS? I think thats why i get excited whenever we sign anyone. Cause I mean thats kinda awesome.
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Sometimes I wish Snyder would just recruit really good players.
It is fun to read some of these far reaching theories that people will come up with to rationalize why we don't, though. It is entertaining. Not like being entertained because our coach flew a helicopter to a recruiting visit. But fun and entertaining, in our own little way.
Hey man, we'd all love to see KSU sign a bunch of 4 and 5 star kids. That isn't going to happen under Snyder and never has but I'm quite certain the performance or end result on the field is FAR MORE IMPORTANT to you or I than how our team rankings look on February 1st. We went 10-2 for a reason this past year and not all of it is "scheme doctor" crap. He does have some players.
I look at Vernon Vaughn's video, for example. The kid makes a TON of great catches demonstrating body control, hands, and advanced skills in the passing game you can't teach. But he was injured this year and that video comes from the '10 season after he had just turned 16. That is very young. He doesn't look THAT fast or sudden and I'm quite certain Snyder was aware of that so why did he offer the kid so early? Probably because he knows the kid could advance quite a bit physically in the next few years. I know that ESPN scout is far more concerned about skill in the way they rate kids...Vaughn got high marks with them based on his skills that can't be taught.
If you want to complain and bitch about recruiting just for the sake of doing so then that's fine. The man will produce results that can be measured when it counts and you won't be bitching in Sept-Nov but then you can turn to Feb and forget what happened just a few months ago. I'm sure Snyder looks for every edge he can get and in so doing you have to consider what he may or may not be contemplating when he does offer a kid.
LOL...No. Wrong board Hatter.
LOL at the people that think the DOD was built on the backs of classes like the one we just signed.
The DOD was built on solid classes with impact players like Jeff Kelly. And guys like Brent Venables recruiting guys like Jeff Kelly.
The notion that we don't or can't recruit 4 or 5 star talent is convenient fallacy that isn't true.
dear god. So everybody we signed back in the day was a Jeff Kelly? Nope. Things were a lot different then in soooooo many ways. For one, the access to information on recruits in 1997 was nothing like it is today. Not everybody would have known in '97 about a Jeff Kelly like they do today. Plus, the rankings were more inaccurate then because of that far less information. I think about some of the kids who we signed that were rated 4 and 5 star out of the jucos but had no video on rivals because there was very few, if any, until early 2000s. Many of those wouldn't be nearly as regarded today as they were then.
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The notion of moneyball was simply this: finding value when you are constrained more than your competitors. Bill has, to my knowledge, always held the belief in waiting to offer kids based upon their senior film (though he as waivered some from that tactic). If that is a base philosophy, then it will inherently lead to finding kids that were “late bloomers” (whether because of injury, age, or physical maturation), because everyone else in the free world is offering based upon junior film (thus you’d have to assume that they have a better shot at landing that HS kid). Also, Bill has always “saved” scholarships therefore this provides him with the ability (maybe moreso than others) to offer a kid who blew up during his senior year because he has the room .
Bill’s problem is that he hasn’t been able to get Arthur Brown out of HS (generally speaking). Or Jeff Kelly out of JUCO (anymore). These are high level athletes/recruits who provide the immediate and/or eventual elite talent which can be surrounded by the Moneyball/DITR players.
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Wabash sometimes I think we're so tuckish that we forget how emaw we are. I mean imagine for a second, you're really talented (Hard to imagine) at football. You have no ties to any school because you grew up poor. You live in texas, and you are effing elite (6'4", 4.4-40, 220, WR). Why and the eff would I leave Texas to go to the MIDDLE OF KANSAS? Seriously think about that. We grew to love Manhattan, why do I want to leave Texas for EFFING KANSAS? I think thats why i get excited whenever we sign anyone. Cause I mean thats kinda awesome.
wait am I poor because I'm black or because I grew up in Texas?
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Wabash sometimes I think we're so tuckish that we forget how emaw we are. I mean imagine for a second, you're really talented (Hard to imagine) at football. You have no ties to any school because you grew up poor. You live in texas, and you are effing elite (6'4", 4.4-40, 220, WR). Why and the eff would I leave Texas to go to the MIDDLE OF KANSAS? Seriously think about that. We grew to love Manhattan, why do I want to leave Texas for EFFING KANSAS? I think thats why i get excited whenever we sign anyone. Cause I mean thats kinda awesome.
wait am I poor because I'm black or because I grew up in Texas?
Both :opcat:
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10-2 is the outlier.
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If you enjoyed Outliers, you might give Scorecasting a try. It is similar in some ways, but is all about sports. I think it might be the book the GPC poster who said Spradling wasn't slumping cited.
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I'm imagining Ron Prince accidentally leaving a copy of Outliers in his desk. One day Bill briskly opens the drawer for another Werther's Original and the book slides forward. History is made.
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dear god. So everybody we signed back in the day was a Jeff Kelly? Nope. Things were a lot different then in soooooo many ways. For one, the access to information on recruits in 1997 was nothing like it is today. Not everybody would have known in '97 about a Jeff Kelly like they do today. Plus, the rankings were more inaccurate then because of that far less information. I think about some of the kids who we signed that were rated 4 and 5 star out of the jucos but had no video on rivals because there was very few, if any, until early 2000s. Many of those wouldn't be nearly as regarded today as they were then.
I didn't say everyone in those classes was like Jeff Kelly.
I was simply discounting your notion that Snyder or staff can't recruit impact 4 or 5 star players and needs to rely upon undervalued kids without interest from other top schools to sustain his program.
That's a fallacy.
We can recruit 4 or 5 star talent, we did when we actually had recruiters capable of doing so on the staff, and that was a major part of the success during the point in time when we were competing at a championship level.
Michael Bishop was a 4 or 5 star talent. Let's start there. Jeff Kelly, Quincy Morgan, Darnell McDonald, Frank Murphy, hell Josh Scobey, James McGill, Bobby Walker. All JUCO All American 4 or 5 star talent.
Josh Buhl and the Mesquite trio. Ell Roberson. All three and four star Parade All American talent from the prep route. Guys like Andrew Shull and Ben Leber were Parade All Americans out of high school. Jarrod Cooper, Rashad Washington and Monty Beisel were Parade All Americans.
This notion that the DOD was built on classes with 8 grayshirts is laughable. They weren't.
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Outliers is a great book. I'd recommend it to anyone, and michigan was right that this example is very comparable to the one in the book.
I also think Hatter is correct that this isn't a coincidence.
Finally, you only need to have 22 really awesome players at a time. That's 25% of your roster. If you can sign 6-8 potential studs in every class, that's enough to fill a two deep almost 1.5 times over and fill the rest of your team with quality depth to push the starters and backups in practice every day. And, ultimately, what you want if you're not a perennial power, like Bama, LSU, OU, etc., is a roster full of D1 athletes, and the guys in this class, for the most part, look like D1 athletes.
You have to remember that for a lot of these guys, they won't see the field for anything but special teams (if that) for almost three years. That's three years of S&C, practice, development, maturation, etc. That's an entire lifetime for an athlete. Imagine where you were at 18, physically, compared to where you were at 21 or 22? Now imagine if you had spent three, four, or five years doing intense, year-round physical training while eating at a training table?
And, while we knock Snyder for a lot of things, one thing he excels at is creating a structured environment that facilitates improving personal performance. You can't underscore how much his attention to detail and structured approach enhance that development as well.
/untucksshirtnow
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dear god. So everybody we signed back in the day was a Jeff Kelly? Nope. Things were a lot different then in soooooo many ways. For one, the access to information on recruits in 1997 was nothing like it is today. Not everybody would have known in '97 about a Jeff Kelly like they do today. Plus, the rankings were more inaccurate then because of that far less information. I think about some of the kids who we signed that were rated 4 and 5 star out of the jucos but had no video on rivals because there was very few, if any, until early 2000s. Many of those wouldn't be nearly as regarded today as they were then.
I didn't say everyone in those classes was like Jeff Kelly.
I was simply discounting your notion that Snyder or staff can't recruit impact 4 or 5 star players and needs to rely upon undervalued kids without interest from other top schools to sustain his program.
That's a fallacy.
We can recruit 4 or 5 star talent, we did when we actually had recruiters capable of doing so on the staff, and that was a major part of the success during the point in time when we were competing at a championship level.
Michael Bishop was a 4 or 5 star talent. Let's start there. Jeff Kelly, Quincy Morgan, Darnell McDonald, Frank Murphy, hell Josh Scobey, James McGill, Bobby Walker. All JUCO All American 4 or 5 star talent.
Josh Buhl and the Mesquite trio. Ell Roberson. All three and four star Parade All American talent from the prep route. Guys like Andrew Shull and Ben Leber were Parade All Americans out of high school. Jarrod Cooper, Rashad Washington and Monty Beisel were Parade All Americans.
This notion that the DOD was built on classes with 8 grayshirts is laughable. They weren't.
I think you're both right.
Hatter is correct that Snyder's approach, overall, works. The track record is there.
909 is right in the sense that we probably aren't maximizing the talent we 'could' pull should Snyder hire better recruiters.
The grayshirt strategy, preferred walk-on strategy, transfer strategy, etc. are all great things Snyder does. When you don't have the resources everyone else has, you need to go out there and find different ways to pull in talent. No matter how good you are at recruiting, you should never limit yourself to one or two avenues to pull players. You need to be open and diligent in finding talent wherever you can.
However, I think there is a great amount of truth to the fact that we probably could recruit better if we spent some additional money on staff, or overcame whatever limitation we seem to self-impose in terms of pulling in obvious candidates that could help us make an impact in finding better players (i.e. Ekeler).
The frustration on both sides of the argument is justified. We need to keep doing more of what we're doing, but we should be going out and getting better talent, staff wise, to increase the level of talent we're not finding through unconventional means. There's a balance there.
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Hatter's thought made me think of that. Unlike hockey, the real transformation for MOST football players occurs once they're in a college weightroom and development, so there is more potential for improving an undervalued player.
That sounds really interesting. Is the whole book sports related or just outliers in general?
very general
michigan-did you see when bissenger was just crushing gladwell on twitter a month ago...talking about how much crap outliers was. i didnt understand because i thought outliers was very well argued premise, but i love gladwell. is burton willing to put in his 10,000 hours..that is the real question. :crossfingers:
I didn't because bissinger is a moron and I don't follow him. Outliers isn't perfect by any stretch, but Bissinger is a Moron.
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Don't see how you can argue that Jeff Kelly was a better recruit than Will Davis is now. And Davis has a better HS resume than Simoneau. Way better.
Leber was rated higher because he was taller. Was he a better player at KSU than Simoneau or Kelly? Not really.
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Michael Bishop was a 4 or 5 star talent. Let's start there. Jeff Kelly, Quincy Morgan, Darnell McDonald, Frank Murphy, hell Josh Scobey, James McGill, Bobby Walker. All JUCO All American 4 or 5 star talent.
just to point out a few things
1) Bishop chose KSU because he couldn't get into Texas or aTm. Both recruited him but they had the Texas exit exam he had to pass to gain entrance into those schools.
2) We out muscled lowly Iowa State for Quincy Morgan. FACT.
3) Josh Scobey was a placement from having signed him out of high school when he wasn't highly recruited.
4) James McGill would have gone to Illinois but he couldn't get in there. It would be no different than if Cordarelle Patterson fell into our lap in August because he doesn't have the math course to get into Tennessee.
Sure, we won a few more battles then....but I emphasize a "few" more. One of the reasons was because schools didn't recruit the jucos as actively as they do today. Go figure?
Here is another reason....KSU could sign partial qualifiers up to about '97...that changed a few things as well. You wonder why Boise State has so much talent? They get a number of players who would not be permitted to sign with programs in BCS conferences.
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No use discussing this anymore, Snyder is not going to change, and frankly he seems pretty grumpy if anyone suggest otherwise.
It's probably not going to win any conference championships, but bowl appearences will likely occur every year . . . and that's good enough.
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:love: The ManHatter.
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i enjoyed this thread.
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i enjoyed this thread.
+1 :ksu:
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sounds all a bit dubious to me
would have to see (and have access) to the data for analysis
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I'm so sick of "the examples" like Jordy Nelson and Aqib Talib, those are the rough ridin' exceptions. We suck at football and we definitely suck at recruiting. Eff moneyball analogies, they're Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We're not working with a salary cup. :DroppedMic: :UntuckingMyFuckingShirt: :shakesfist:
we suck at "football recruiting", not at "football". It's your ignorance of this very detail that illustrates your ignorance for considering the discussion in this post.
I now suggest you open the nearest window and yell at the top of your lungs. Come back when you feel better.
I rough ridin' love the Manhatter. He's one the things that keeps my EMAW burning.
We are blessed to have him, and you rough ridin' retards need to give some respect.
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We are blessed to have him, and you rough ridin' retards need to give some respect.
:thumbs:
Love Hatter.
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I thought we'd already had this discussion before. I think it's incredibly relevant. We can't compete with deseret just buying up all the, um, preferably hued and bred stock. So we take some chances on some undersized or off-colored calves, lance a few pop eyes, and band them ourself. We have to maximize our maneuverability and operate in the corners and target our buys by identifying weights or regional markets currently undervalued that fit well within our operation. And pick up a few nuggets following the big boys through the cornfield. Then you get them started on harvesting championships as the final product.
Really, it's all spelled out by Allan nation in the stockman grass farmer.
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If felix rex wrote a book about anything I would read the crap out of it. More than once.
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Me too.
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shameless
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I thought we'd already had this discussion before. I think it's incredibly relevant. We can't compete with deseret just buying up all the, um, preferably hued and bred stock. So we take some chances on some undersized or off-colored calves, lance a few pop eyes, and band them ourself. We have to maximize our maneuverability and operate in the corners and target our buys by identifying weights or regional markets currently undervalued that fit well within our operation. And pick up a few nuggets following the big boys through the cornfield. Then you get them started on harvesting championships as the final product.
Really, it's all spelled out by Allan nation in the stockman grass farmer.
Bravo :gocho:
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We are blessed to have him, and you rough ridin' retards need to give some respect.
:thumbs:
Love Hatter.
Love all the true emawers on this board.
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I thought we'd already had this discussion before. I think it's incredibly relevant. We can't compete with deseret just buying up all the, um, preferably hued and bred stock. So we take some chances on some undersized or off-colored calves, lance a few pop eyes, and band them ourself. We have to maximize our maneuverability and operate in the corners and target our buys by identifying weights or regional markets currently undervalued that fit well within our operation. And pick up a few nuggets following the big boys through the cornfield. Then you get them started on harvesting championships as the final product.
Really, it's all spelled out by Allan nation in the stockman grass farmer.
Allan nation is a rough ridin' hack.
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I thought we'd already had this discussion before. I think it's incredibly relevant. We can't compete with deseret just buying up all the, um, preferably hued and bred stock. So we take some chances on some undersized or off-colored calves, lance a few pop eyes, and band them ourself. We have to maximize our maneuverability and operate in the corners and target our buys by identifying weights or regional markets currently undervalued that fit well within our operation. And pick up a few nuggets following the big boys through the cornfield. Then you get them started on harvesting championships as the final product.
Really, it's all spelled out by Allan nation in the stockman grass farmer.
Allan nation is a rough ridin' hack.
Meh. I'm pretty sure half of that was Bud Williams anyway. Point stands.
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I'm so sick of "the examples" like Jordy Nelson and Aqib Talib, those are the rough ridin' exceptions. We suck at football and we definitely suck at recruiting. Eff moneyball analogies, they're Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We're not working with a salary cup. :DroppedMic: :UntuckingMyFuckingShirt: :shakesfist:
we suck at "football recruiting", not at "football". It's your ignorance of this very detail that illustrates your ignorance for considering the discussion in this post.
I now suggest you open the nearest window and yell at the top of your lungs. Come back when you feel better.
I rough ridin' love the Manhatter. He's one the things that keeps my EMAW burning.
We are blessed to have him, and you rough ridin' retards need to give some respect.
-
I'm so sick of "the examples" like Jordy Nelson and Aqib Talib, those are the rough ridin' exceptions. We suck at football and we definitely suck at recruiting. Eff moneyball analogies, they're Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We're not working with a salary cup. :DroppedMic: :UntuckingMyFuckingShirt: :shakesfist:
we suck at "football recruiting", not at "football". It's your ignorance of this very detail that illustrates your ignorance for considering the discussion in this post.
I now suggest you open the nearest window and yell at the top of your lungs. Come back when you feel better.
I rough ridin' love the Manhatter. He's one the things that keeps my EMAW burning.
We are blessed to have him, and you rough ridin' retards need to give some respect.
agreed. he has really brought this board back from the arkansas mess.
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I'm so sick of "the examples" like Jordy Nelson and Aqib Talib, those are the rough ridin' exceptions. We suck at football and we definitely suck at recruiting. Eff moneyball analogies, they're Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We're not working with a salary cup. :DroppedMic: :UntuckingMyFuckingShirt: :shakesfist:
we suck at "football recruiting", not at "football". It's your ignorance of this very detail that illustrates your ignorance for considering the discussion in this post.
I now suggest you open the nearest window and yell at the top of your lungs. Come back when you feel better.
I rough ridin' love the Manhatter. He's one the things that keeps my EMAW burning.
We are blessed to have him, and you rough ridin' retards need to give some respect.
agreed. he has really brought this board back from the arkansas mess.
:thumbs: