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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: J on October 13, 2011, 12:20:06 PM
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Are we going to suck or be good this year. Frank seems pretty excited about this team...why?
I hope we are good.
Please respond.
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I think we may suck.
Hope I'm wrong. Just seems like we've got a lot of nice role players, but no stars or clutch players.
MacG - solid player. nice shot. seems like a Cartier Martin clone. struggles to create his own looks.
Sprad - solid. Not Pullen.
Southwell - long, above average defender. offense is below average.
JHR - Came on late last season. played really well in spurts. Don't know how that will translate to an entire season.
Jones - No idea.
Bench: very little size. excited to see Gipson and Diaz. Hope Jamar regained his sanity. I don't see a lot of points off of the bench.
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good JYC type of year. 11 seed? Might "get hot" at the end of the year.
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This team should be fun to watch. :bball:
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I can't wait to see what kind of junkyard tats sprads unveils for this new season.
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Expect Sprad and Southie to improve quite a bit overast year.
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That's not a basketball question. It's a Frank question. Frank says things like he's shocked that Pullen isn't NBA material. He has his own agenda.
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Frank says its the fastest team he's had. Had trouble last year in transition, look for that to change.
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Frank says its the fastest team he's had. Had trouble last year in transition, look for that to change.
1) understatement of the century
2) really hard to tell if this is actually going to improve, because it is difficult to understate how talented Denis was on the break and providing tempo in general.
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That's not a basketball question. It's a Frank question. Frank says things like he's shocked that Pullen isn't NBA material. He has his own agenda.
I asked LBBIQ'ers not to read.
tia
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Frank says its the fastest team he's had. Had trouble last year in transition, look for that to change.
1) understatement of the century
2) really hard to tell if this is actually going to improve, because it is difficult to understate how talented Denis was on the break and providing tempo in general.
I knew I'd draw out some real HBBIQ'rs with that statement :gocho:
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That's not a basketball question. It's a Frank question. Frank says things like he's shocked that Pullen isn't NBA material. He has his own agenda.
I asked LBBIQ'ers not to read.
tia
that's everyone on the board.
hth
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That's not a basketball question. It's a Frank question. Frank says things like he's shocked that Pullen isn't NBA material. He has his own agenda.
I asked LBBIQ'ers not to read.
tia
that's everyone on the board.
hth
You're just mad someone called you a dumbass after you posted something reasonable..
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Having Frank seem so positive about this team kinda freaks me out.
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DScott tweeted yesterday that frank mentioned that the speed and shooting ability of this group gives him what he wants to go back to the offense that we used to run before this last season. Said that he will start there, but that he will keep last year's Undie's offense in his back pocket in case we still suck at Frank's offense.
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frank needs to realize he's not an offensive coach and that his offense sucks.
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frank needs to realize he's not an offensive coach and that his offense sucks.
Ok, Bobby.
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frank needs to realize he's not an offensive coach and that his offense sucks.
Frank's Offense= totally random movement and passes among guards/combos with practically no movement in low post, crossing fingers to hope a PG will sprint in and loft a teardrop jumper (Denis) or jump straight into a defender and loft something that passes for a shot at the last second to get to the line (Jake).
Yeah. Sucks, but I love it. :bball:
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DScott tweeted yesterday that frank mentioned that the speed and shooting ability of this group gives him what he wants to go back to the offense that we used to run before this last season. Said that he will start there, but that he will keep last year's Undie's offense in his back pocket in case we still suck at Frank's offense.
:emawkid: :ksu:
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Frank's offense got us to a Sweet 16 so I love the crap out of it.
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Frank's offense got us to a Sweet 16 so I love the crap out of it.
The success of Frank's "offense" depends on the play-making ability of the individuals on the court. Points are not created as a product of his offense. If players have a hot hand (See Clemente and Pullen '10) we are tough to stop. If players are cold, our offense looks painfully awful.
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Frank's offense got us to a Sweet 16 so I love the crap out of it.
Elite 8, actually. On the other hand, if we didn't switch to Undy's offense last year, we could have missed the tournament all together.
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Man, the E8 was such a magical experience I still can barely believe it actually happened.
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The success of Frank's "offense" depends on the play-making ability of the individuals on the court. Points are not created as a product of his offense. If players have a hot hand (See Clemente and Pullen '10) we are tough to stop. If players are cold, our offense looks painfully awful.
a) bullshit. b) that's every offense.
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frank needs to realize he's not an offensive coach and that his offense sucks.
Frank's Offense= totally random movement and passes among guards/combos with practically no movement in low post, crossing fingers to hope a PG will sprint in and loft a teardrop jumper (Denis) or jump straight into a defender and loft something that passes for a shot at the last second to get to the line (Jake).
Yeah. Sucks, but I love it. :bball:
Why do you need an offense with the low post running around everywhere?
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frank needs to realize he's not an offensive coach and that his offense sucks.
Frank's Offense= totally random movement and passes among guards/combos with practically no movement in low post, crossing fingers to hope a PG will sprint in and loft a teardrop jumper (Denis) or jump straight into a defender and loft something that passes for a shot at the last second to get to the line (Jake).
Yeah. Sucks, but I love it. :bball:
Why do you need an offense with the low post running around everywhere?
Because ku does it and lbbiqs use ku as our measuring stick.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk
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The success of Frank's "offense" depends on the play-making ability of the individuals on the court. Points are not created as a product of his offense. If players have a hot hand (See Clemente and Pullen '10) we are tough to stop. If players are cold, our offense looks painfully awful.
a) bullshit. b) that's every offense.
Haha. You obviously don't watch much K-State basketball. Or at least the '07-'10. Frank's "up-tempo" "transition" offense is exactly that... A transition offense. Frank doesnt have a half court offense. If we don't score by Beasley facing up or denis and Jake going insane, our half court offense is embarrassingly inept. Poor spacing, random non-sensical passes, slow ball movement.
On the other end of the spectrum is KU. Self is a scheme doctor in his own right. You want to see a half court offense, watch those guys. Then watch us. Then watch them again.
All of that being said, we can still succeed with a great transition offense. Again, see '09-'10. That's where JYC came from. Crazy good defense. Long athletes. Steals, block shots, rebound disparity, and the fastest point guard in D1.
It is what it is.
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Ps, whoever is in charge of teaching post moves should be fired. Or, if nobody is currently teaching post moves, we should hire such a coach.
Post Huggins, I have not seen a big man at KSU who has any true offensive skills in the post. Kelly would be the closest, but he was much more of PF who faced up from 7ft. out.
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Frank doesnt have a half court offense. If we don't score by Beasley facing up or denis and Jake going insane, our half court offense is embarrassingly inept. Poor spacing, random non-sensical passes, slow ball movement.
lol.
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Frank doesnt have a half court offense. If we don't score by Beasley facing up or denis and Jake going insane, our half court offense is embarrassingly inept. Poor spacing, random non-sensical passes, slow ball movement.
lol.
:facepalm:
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maybe watch some replays. live may be a little fast for you.
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maybe watch some replays. live may be a little fast for you.
oh man. highly underrated PI'r on board here.
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maybe watch some replays. live may be a little fast for you.
:sdeek:
What offense do we run? Just describe it for me. TIA.
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What offense do we run? Just describe it for me. TIA.
i'm not bb smart enough to know what to call it, or to describe it. ask _fan.
am smart enough to know that they had stacked posts, tons of set plays (like not a cont. motion o, called sets instead) and screens on top of picks on top of screens. i mean i can still see that play they ran all the time for both clemente and pullen (but more pullen) where he'd run the baseline then pop up to the 3 pt line at about the elbow. there were like 3 screens in that.
if you think that they had "poor" spacing, you weren't recognizing what they were doing. they weren't trying to spread the court out and open the interior. if you think they didn't run anything designed when they failed to get a shot off in transition you simply weren't watching.
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What offense do we run? Just describe it for me. TIA.
i'm not bb smart enough to know what to call it, or to describe it. ask _fan.
am smart enough to know that they had stacked posts, tons of set plays (like not a cont. motion o, called sets instead) and screens on top of picks on top of screens. i mean i can still see that play they ran all the time for both clemente and pullen (but more pullen) where he'd run the baseline then pop up to the 3 pt line at about the elbow. there were like 3 screens in that.
if you think that they had "poor" spacing, you weren't recognizing what they were doing. they weren't trying to spread the court out and open the interior. if you think they didn't run anything designed when they failed to get a shot off in transition you simply weren't watching.
This.
In some respects a critique of the offense would comment on this because I think Jamar struggled to board and get his own points which is part of what Frank demands. It isn't like we are going to give 8-10 hi-lo iso sets for our bigs every game like ku.
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Also, our posts do move. Frank actually uses his posts as screens for the off ball guard or our small forwards. That is how we prefer to run our set pick an roll plays many times to either exploit match ups or allow the on ball guard to dribble drive and allow the off guard or Rod to pick an pop. Just because we don't throw oops to the likes of Luis Colon or JHR doesn't mean they don't move. I would suggest you spend a couple hours watching movement within the paint from the blocks to the elbow of the paint.
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Ps, whoever is in charge of teaching post moves should be fired. Or, if nobody is currently teaching post moves, we should hire such a coach.
Post Huggins, I have not seen a big man at KSU who has any true offensive skills in the post. Kelly would be the closest, but he was much more of PF who faced up from 7ft. out.
I talked with a guy last year who is good friends with Underwood...I mentioned my frustration with our post play and he said Underwood coaches the bigs. I was surprised. I would love to see us hire a top notch bigs coach (preferably someone who's played the position, just my personal preference), especially if we land Cauley and Upshaw.
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Ps, whoever is in charge of teaching post moves should be fired. Or, if nobody is currently teaching post moves, we should hire such a coach.
Post Huggins, I have not seen a big man at KSU who has any true offensive skills in the post. Kelly would be the closest, but he was much more of PF who faced up from 7ft. out.
I talked with a guy last year who is good friends with Underwood...I mentioned my frustration with our post play and he said Underwood coaches the bigs. I was surprised. I would love to see us hire a top notch bigs coach (preferably someone who's played the position, just my personal preference), especially if we land Cauley and Upshaw.
I might be on board if they were going to recruit. Poor Tex has finally been relieved of GPC's "draft Tex" movement and I think this is kind of minutiae that is totally baseless speculation for outsiders because it is so difficult to measure the effectiveness of the coaching. I think a recruiter is nearly always a better option, but assuming a "bigs coach" would be helpful...
Any names in this discussion?
As much as I hated on Danny Manning when he was fetching stats for Bill, he is a constant sideline reporter/color guy go to for praise. He doesn't seem like he's all that interested in doing more than he's doing so it is kind of hard to guage how good he is based on interest/hc jobs, and he isn't taking a lateral move.
I know of zero other coaches that I can think of that would fit this mold except for Reggie Love.
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henriquez has been pretty well coached up for the last 2 years.
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Can't disagree that JHR is improved, but Asprilla, Judge, Colon (it could be argued) did not improve much (Colon made big time defensive progress, but zero offensively). Granted Asprilla and Judge bailed, but it could be argued that a good "bigs" coach may have made the difference between them bailing and them being good productive 5's....or maybe they were just head cases destined to wash out. I think Manning has done a fantastic job at KU...would love to find a clone. I love the idea of an undersized 5 that had success...those types that had to rely on their post moves, footwork, position and court savvy to get buckets.
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Haha. You obviously don't watch much K-State basketball.
this simultaneously made me :lol: and :sdeek:
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What offense do we run? Just describe it for me. TIA.
i'm not bb smart enough to know what to call it, or to describe it. ask _fan.
am smart enough to know that they had stacked posts, tons of set plays (like not a cont. motion o, called sets instead) and screens on top of picks on top of screens. i mean i can still see that play they ran all the time for both clemente and pullen (but more pullen) where he'd run the baseline then pop up to the 3 pt line at about the elbow. there were like 3 screens in that.
if you think that they had "poor" spacing, you weren't recognizing what they were doing. they weren't trying to spread the court out and open the interior. if you think they didn't run anything designed when they failed to get a shot off in transition you simply weren't watching.
This.
In some respects a critique of the offense would comment on this because I think Jamar struggled to board and get his own points which is part of what Frank demands. It isn't like we are going to give 8-10 hi-lo iso sets for our bigs every game like ku.
Since Beas and Bill - other than Kelly we have not had another big that you'd want to get the ball to in a hi-lo set (unfortunately). Would have been nice if Sutton could have had any chance whatsoever to hit a 15 ft. jumper. Given our lack of scoring potential at other positions and our willingness to play defensive minded players over more offensively oriented, I think makes the set play offense (that sys describes) make sense. There is always a need for balance, but to centralize our offense to get a big with limited back to the basket skills the ball rather than running the "Pullen, 3 screen, get a jumper up" would have been a worse decision. Or, to run some motion offense could undermine the level of intensity that our guys must display on defense if they ever want to play major minutes. It is what it is, just enjoy it people.
All of that being said, without a Jake or Denis this year, we may have to mix up our sets a bit more.
Also, people that criticize "Frank's offense" by submitting the "we had to go to Underwood's offense last year to even make the tournament" argument....STFU...It is a credit to Frank that he made the effective change. Also, shows that we have a guy on the bench with some ability to change things up on offense when we may need it.
There will be a point in the future where we are back to Wooly era quality hoops. I hope this is not for a very long time, but the time will come. rough ridin' enjoy Frank while it lasts.
All of that being said, to reiterate, we don't have Jake or Denis anymore. :ohno:
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the problem with frank's offense is that most lbbiq fans cannot recognize set plays and want to see a variation of the motion offense they played in Jr High
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The problem is that "set plays" are not an offense. They are, in fact, set plays.
Every team will have a general, base motion offense or a few general motion offenses. No team runs a set play every trip down the floor.
Frank, however, doesn't have a motion offense that works. We may have some set plays that are effective, but our base offense is abysmal. Hence, Brad Underwood's "pinch post offense."
Without Denis Clemente running a torid, up-tempo transition break, our offense fell into traditional, half-court sets. And, as we may recall, our offense blew ass (for the most part) the first half of last season. Terrible spacing, turnovers, low productivity. Even Frank's amazing "set play" schemes couldn't save us. We needed an effective motion offense. So, Brad gave us one. And, magically, we were able to get more looks at the basket and our offense was more fluid. Here's a good article for morons to read if they're still struggling with the concept of fluidity and "creating shots" out of a motion offense.
http://www.kstatesports.com/blog/2011/02/new-pinch-offense-fits-wildcat-roster.html
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the problem with frank's offense is that most lbbiq fans cannot recognize set plays and want to see a variation of the motion offense they played in Jr High
actually, the problem with frank's offense is that it's just ugly. this isn't about recognizing set plays.
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i always understood our offense to be someone shoot it up and everyone else try to JYC it back in.
:dunno:
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Having Frank seem so positive about this team kinda freaks me out.
me too. almost like he's trying to sell tickets or something.
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Ps, whoever is in charge of teaching post moves should be fired. Or, if nobody is currently teaching post moves, we should hire such a coach.
Post Huggins, I have not seen a big man at KSU who has any true offensive skills in the post. Kelly would be the closest, but he was much more of PF who faced up from 7ft. out.
Somebody must have been sleeping when Jordan dunked on all those bitches last year.
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Ps, whoever is in charge of teaching post moves should be fired. Or, if nobody is currently teaching post moves, we should hire such a coach.
Post Huggins, I have not seen a big man at KSU who has any true offensive skills in the post. Kelly would be the closest, but he was much more of PF who faced up from 7ft. out.
Somebody must have been sleeping when Jordan dunked on all those bitches last year.
:bang: I can't believe I forgot about that. But, come on, that crap can't be taught. You're born with that.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa279%2Fmirak%2FJHR.jpg&hash=abd29852321b087563f72b045054d466a16a42da)
In all seriousness, I have high hopes for JHR. That dude is so tall/long (especially relative to other BigXII centers) that he could put up huge block, rebounding numbers.
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the problem with frank's offense is that most lbbiq fans cannot recognize set plays and want to see a variation of the motion offense they played in Jr High
actually, the problem with frank's offense is that it's just ugly. this isn't about recognizing set plays.
I believe this to be true... And I'm not even sure it's a problem in Franks eyes. I also think it was less ugly last year than it has been in previous seasons. Still, there is an offense there.
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i 100% agree with you, Super G. it took me a while to accept frank's-O and i do.
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I believe this to be true... And I'm not even sure it's a problem in Franks eyes. I also think it was less ugly last year than it has been in previous seasons. Still, there is an offense there.
Frank's "offense" = JYC + fast break + offensive rebounding + put backs.
It's ugly. But, like Clams, I'm fine with it. It took us to an Elite 8 in '09-'10.
But, you've got to have the right personnel for it. guys like Clemente, Colon, and Sutton. We didn't have the right personnel in '10-'11
Will we have JYC personnel in '11-'12???
I don't know. If not, we're gonna need a good half-court offense.
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jesus, christ. what a brutal thread.
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jesus, christ. what a brutal thread.
Edited the title for clarity. Hopefully that will clean some things up.
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I believe this to be true... And I'm not even sure it's a problem in Franks eyes. I also think it was less ugly last year than it has been in previous seasons. Still, there is an offense there.
Frank's "offense" = JYC + fast break + offensive rebounding + put backs.
It's ugly. But, like Clams, I'm fine with it. It took us to an Elite 8 in '09-'10.
But, you've got to have the right personnel for it. guys like Clemente, Colon, and Sutton. We didn't have the right personnel in '10-'11
Will we have JYC personnel in '11-'12???
I don't know. If not, we're gonna need a good half-court offense.
Your problem is that you are confusing high school basketball with college basketball.
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Your problem is that you are confusing high school basketball with college basketball.
http://beyondthearc.nbcsports.com/2010/11/24/can-kansas-state-be-a-transition-team/
:cheers:
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can someone explain the dorito offense to me?
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Your problem is that you are confusing high school basketball with college basketball.
http://beyondthearc.nbcsports.com/2010/11/24/can-kansas-state-be-a-transition-team/
:cheers:
I'm assuming you're referring to the Pullen quote and not the actual article. I don't know who in the eff Rob Dauster is and I'm not going to change my opinion on this because some rando blogger may not have the same view. If you don't understand what Pullen was saying with his quote and don't think that 95% of all college basketball teams think the same way then we have nothing to talk about.
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I'm assuming you're referring to the Pullen quote and not the actual article. I don't know who in the eff Rob Dauster is and I'm not going to change my opinion on this because some rando blogger may not have the same view. If you don't understand what Pullen was saying with his quote and don't think that 95% of all college basketball teams think the same way then we have nothing to talk about.
Nope. I was referring to the actual article as well. Basic premise -- if you can't rely on JYC transition offense, you'd better have a good half-court offense. [disclaimer - I'd love to see the JYC transition offense return this year]
And, you can't rely on a JYC transition offense unless you've got the right personnel. Pretty simple really. In '09-'10 we had the right players for the style. In '10-'11 we didn't. Again, pretty simple concept for non-retards.
"I don’t know if Kansas State is that good in transition. For starters, they don’t have a point guard. Will Spradling may end up being that guy, but he’s not all that quick and, as every freshman point guard in the country does, he makes too many mistakes with the ball. I love Jacob Pullen, but does he strike you as the kind of player that can lead a fast break? Is he going to be making 60 foot touch passes to Rodney McGruder streaking down the wing in stride? Does he have the court vision to see Curtis Kelly running to the rim and the passing ability to get the ball to him in the split second that he comes open?"
Pretty spot on.
"Their half court offense was pretty ugly last night. The Wildcats committed 21 turnovers last night. They shot 3-17 from beyond the arc. Players were getting ripped in the open floor. Pullen was losing the ball out of bounds. Passes were going through Kelly’s hands, and Kelly’s passes were going straight into the hands of a Duke defender. Outside of Pullen, can anyone on this Kansas State team create their own shot? Kelly can, at times, in the post. He was 8-11 for 19 points last night. He also had six turnovers. He’s not exactly what you would call reliable."
Again, pretty spot on. Until Underwood convinced Frank to abandon the '09-'10 concept and adopt an actual half court offense, our team struggled.
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man oh man, the Frank's Offense thread came early this year!
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might as well pin this so knuckleheads don't start a new thread after every game.
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consider how bad this thread could have become w/ half the football tards over here contributing.
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Any early verdicts?
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Any early verdicts?
Gonna be pretty good this year, imo
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Offense and transition game looked as good or better than it ever has - at this stage of the season - during the Martin era.
I know that isn't saying much, and the opponent blew, but it's still a positive sign.
Moved the ball really well around the perimeter and the bigs were active inside.
And Frank's "wtf r u doing" substitutions were fairly limited.
Hope this is a sign of good things to come.