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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: KITNfury on February 05, 2011, 07:55:47 PM

Title: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: KITNfury on February 05, 2011, 07:55:47 PM
It seemed to me that he goes in, we lose a 7 point lead and turn it into a 6 point deficit. Then he goes to the bench and we barely climb back and sneak out a win. I really don't like him but hate that we HAVE to play him.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: steve dave on February 05, 2011, 08:03:34 PM
+/- used to be what pro-JO's hung their hats on
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 05, 2011, 08:05:55 PM
+/- used to be what pro-JO's hung their hats on

Pro Sprads too.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Immaculate1 on February 05, 2011, 08:08:07 PM
I think it's more a product of the other players production requiring his presence on the court, as opposed to him specifically being on the court.

Wally just left. The sample size seems small so far. Going forward, your point may be validated though.

I don't think you can fault JO for CK and Jam sucking it up requiring him to enter the game and attempt to be a meaningful post. (I'm not sure how much of a meaningful post this is the more that I type.  :))

JO is who he is. Someone we shouldn't have to count on.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: michigancat on February 05, 2011, 08:22:30 PM
No, but I noticed when JHR dunked in your face.  Losers.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kougar24 on February 05, 2011, 08:27:32 PM
JO with an RR of -5 today (+/- of -2).

With him, we scored 2 ppm and gave up 2.2 ppm
Without him, we scored 2.2 ppm and gave up 2.1 ppm.

Does that mean anything at all? Don't know. Ask _FAN. The whole JO story isn't truly told, though, until we get a stat for # of rebounds that bounce off his hands/head and end up with the opponent.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kougar24 on February 05, 2011, 08:30:44 PM
Speaking of correlation, 'Tay with an RR of +23 today. Big night for my 'Tay Crusade!

Pullen with an RR of -15. :eek:
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: steve dave on February 05, 2011, 08:45:15 PM
iirc someone posted a HBBIQ piece the other day that showed +/- wasn't really valid
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kougar24 on February 05, 2011, 08:47:37 PM
iirc someone posted a HBBIQ piece the other day that showed +/- wasn't really valid

Yep, just throwing that out there since +/- was brought up earlier.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: steve dave on February 05, 2011, 08:48:12 PM
iirc someone posted a HBBIQ piece the other day that showed +/- wasn't really valid

Yep, just throwing that out there since +/- was brought up earlier.

yeah, I brought it up, dummy
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: sys on February 05, 2011, 08:48:50 PM
The whole JO story isn't truly told, though, until we get a stat for # of rebounds that bounce off his hands.

he has really bad hands.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: steve dave on February 05, 2011, 08:50:29 PM
The whole JO story isn't truly told, though, until we get a stat for # of rebounds that bounce off his hands.

he has really bad hands.

awful
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kso_FAN on February 05, 2011, 08:50:41 PM
Speaking of correlation, 'Tay with an RR of +23 today. Big night for my 'Tay Crusade!

Pullen with an RR of -15. :eek:

Yeah, and Russell's was -11.  95's was -13.

iirc someone posted a HBBIQ piece the other day that showed +/- wasn't really valid

Obviously. Pullen -15, Russell -11, 95 -13, JHR -5. We needed to get all those guys off the court.

But I do know JHR had 4 blocks and 3 Oboards in 12 whole minutes. Its obvious he stunk today.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: gatoveintisiete on February 05, 2011, 08:50:49 PM
I would rather have  JO than not have him, if you dissagree you should be tested and watched closely.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: steve dave on February 05, 2011, 08:52:17 PM
I would rather have  JO than not have him, if you dissagree you should be tested and watched closely.

We would be in a world of crap if we didn't have him.  I'm not going to stop mentioning his shitty hands just because of that fact though.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: CNS on February 05, 2011, 08:53:45 PM
He does have shitty hands, but that same time period in the game saw two guards in at the same time who usually never see the court. 

If we are going to talk about correlations, we should probably start there.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kso_FAN on February 05, 2011, 08:54:07 PM
I would rather have  JO than not have him, if you dissagree you should be tested and watched closely.

Yeah, who is going to play when (not if) Kelly and Samuels get in foul trouble.

Again, he played 12 minutes. Most of those b/c Frank had to put him in b/c he had no other options.

He's doing fine for what he's asked to do. Yes, the balls that go off his hands can be maddening and his missed bunnies (6 shots was too many for JHR) were frustrating, but overall he did some nice things on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: steve dave on February 05, 2011, 08:54:29 PM
He does have shitty hands, but that same time period in the game saw two guards in at the same time who usually never see the court. 

If we are going to talk about correlations, we should probably start there.

yeah, as has been mentioned, the stat really isn't very relevant.  
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: steve dave on February 05, 2011, 08:55:40 PM
You know who would make this team ridiculously better?  Darren Kent.  Speaking of, got a pic of one of our posters basically slow dancing with him in the concourse  :surprised:
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kougar24 on February 05, 2011, 08:55:59 PM
I would rather have  JO than not have him, if you dissagree you should be tested and watched closely.

I agree, but that's an indictment on our recruiting, not an endorsement of JO. Just because we need him doesn't mean he's good.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kso_FAN on February 05, 2011, 08:56:46 PM
I would rather have  JO than not have him, if you dissagree you should be tested and watched closely.

I agree, but that's an indictment on our recruiting, not an endorsement of JO. Just because we need him doesn't mean he's good.

Do you expect us to have 4 posts that each score 15 points a game?
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kougar24 on February 05, 2011, 08:58:38 PM
I would rather have  JO than not have him, if you dissagree you should be tested and watched closely.

I agree, but that's an indictment on our recruiting, not an endorsement of JO. Just because we need him doesn't mean he's good.

Do you expect us to have 4 posts that each score 15 points a game?

Of course not. Don't act like he's even in that ballpark.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: sys on February 05, 2011, 09:03:27 PM
Do you expect us to have 4 posts that each score 15 points a game?

best frontcourt in america.  how will the coaches find enough minutes for samuels?
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kso_FAN on February 05, 2011, 09:04:21 PM
I would rather have  JO than not have him, if you dissagree you should be tested and watched closely.

I agree, but that's an indictment on our recruiting, not an endorsement of JO. Just because we need him doesn't mean he's good.

Do you expect us to have 4 posts that each score 15 points a game?

Of course not. Don't act like he's even in that ballpark.

I'm not, but I don't expect him to be. But I do expect him to block shots and get rebounds. Even with the frustrating balls off his poor hands, he does this very well. I just want JHR to do what he needs to to be effective for us, and he does that.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: gatoveintisiete on February 05, 2011, 09:04:42 PM
wichita state had a project center during the turgeon years that would absolutely make you vomit his first two years, and then grew into his body and became the center piece of their sweet 16 run, paul miller.  My dream is that jo can improve every year he is here as much as he has this year.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kougar24 on February 05, 2011, 09:07:14 PM
I would rather have  JO than not have him, if you dissagree you should be tested and watched closely.

I agree, but that's an indictment on our recruiting, not an endorsement of JO. Just because we need him doesn't mean he's good.

Do you expect us to have 4 posts that each score 15 points a game?

Of course not. Don't act like he's even in that ballpark.

I'm not, but I don't expect him to be. But I do expect him to block shots and get rebounds. Even with the frustrating balls off his poor hands, he does this very well. I just want JHR to do what he needs to to be effective for us, and he does that.

I'll never be able to look past this.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kso_FAN on February 05, 2011, 09:08:54 PM
I'll never be able to look past this.

Fair enough. I beleive sys has said before that if this is the case, the problem is with the poster (you) and not with JHR.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kougar24 on February 05, 2011, 09:10:12 PM
I'll never be able to look past this.

Fair enough. I beleive sys has said before that if this is the case, the problem is with the poster (you) and not with JHR.

Psh, I don't care. I hate watching him play basketball. He can hate my posting. It's cool.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: steve dave on February 05, 2011, 09:10:30 PM
_FAN's brutal defense (brutal to other posters, not brutal BBSing) of JHR is very entertaining.  
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kso_FAN on February 05, 2011, 09:13:32 PM
_FAN's brutal defense (brutal to other posters, not brutal BBSing) of JHR is very entertaining. 

It is what it is. JHR isn't even one of the top 7 or 8 players on this team, but he's probably in the top 2 to 3 of doing what he's supposed to do. Every team needs guys that do that. That's all I'm trying to say on JHR and I hope people get that.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: wildfratcountry on February 05, 2011, 09:21:35 PM
more importantly, anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and increased confusion about his boyish man child body?
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: jtksu on February 05, 2011, 09:28:47 PM
I have no idea WTF that even means.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: hemmy on February 05, 2011, 10:04:04 PM
I have no idea WTF that even means.

Well, you are Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) :dunno:
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: nicname on February 05, 2011, 10:10:21 PM
You know who would make this team ridiculously better?  Darren Kent.  Speaking of, got a pic of one of our posters basically slow dancing with him in the concourse  :surprised:

I remember watching DK shut down craig brackins in Ames a couple years ago.  Great night.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on February 05, 2011, 10:24:13 PM
I think JO has a higher ceiling than anybody else on the team. He's a 7 footer who is willing to attack the basket aggressively, and that is pretty rare. Will he ever reach his potential? Doubtful, but it seems pretty dumb to hate on him as a sophomore.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: 'taterblast on February 05, 2011, 10:46:49 PM
one dribble from beyond the free throw line. ONE rough ridin' DRIBBLE.
 :bball:
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Trim on February 05, 2011, 10:59:04 PM
I would rather have  JO than not have him, if you dissagree you should be tested and watched closely.

We would be in a world of crap if we didn't have him.  I'm not going to stop mentioning his shitty hands just because of that fact though.

Can't decide if this reminds me more of Carson Hate arguments or Huggs Hate arguments.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: sys on February 05, 2011, 10:59:29 PM
I think JO has a higher ceiling than anybody else on the team. He's a 7 footer who is willing to attack the basket aggressively, and that is pretty rare. Will he ever reach his potential? Doubtful, but it seems pretty dumb to hate on him as a sophomore.

if he was 6'6", 260 with great hands would you think he had a lower ceiling?
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: wabash909 on February 06, 2011, 12:21:58 AM
I would rather have  JO than not have him, if you dissagree you should be tested and watched closely.

Yeah, who is going to play when (not if) Kelly and Samuels get in foul trouble.

Again, he played 12 minutes. Most of those b/c Frank had to put him in b/c he had no other options.

He's doing fine for what he's asked to do. Yes, the balls that go off his hands can be maddening and his missed bunnies (6 shots was too many for JHR) were frustrating, but overall he did some nice things on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor.

Seriously, why the JO hate?  Yes, he sucks at basketball for the most part, but it's not his fault that the front line players we have on this team are insanely stupid and he's depended on to fill their minutes while they sit on the bench for a myriad of reasons, predominately foul trouble. 

All in all, JO did a comendable job today.  He is what he is - a minutes filler.  If he can continue to develop his game offensively, there are a lot of positives that he can bring for us.


Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on February 06, 2011, 02:32:42 AM
I think JO has a higher ceiling than anybody else on the team. He's a 7 footer who is willing to attack the basket aggressively, and that is pretty rare. Will he ever reach his potential? Doubtful, but it seems pretty dumb to hate on him as a sophomore.

if he was 6'6", 260 with great hands would you think he had a lower ceiling?

Yes. Having great hands already would leave less room for improvement, and he wouldn't have the same length advantage that he has now. Seriously, JO is very raw, but when he does something right, he looks really good doing it.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: catzacker on February 06, 2011, 08:07:40 AM
The whole JO story isn't truly told, though, until we get a stat for # of rebounds that bounce off his hands.

he has really bad hands.

awful

this is really the only thing I hate about him.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: CNS on February 06, 2011, 08:14:00 AM
I think JO has a higher ceiling than anybody else on the team. He's a 7 footer who is willing to attack the basket aggressively, and that is pretty rare. Will he ever reach his potential? Doubtful, but it seems pretty dumb to hate on him as a sophomore.

if he was 6'6", 260 with great hands would you think he had a lower ceiling?

Yes. Having great hands already would leave less room for improvement, and he wouldn't have the same length advantage that he has now. Seriously, JO is very raw, but when he does something right, he looks really good doing it.

I agree with this.  JO's height and mentality could make him the only eventual NBA'er on this team.  The NBA has had some real shitty 7'+'ers in the past. 
As far as career ceiling goes, I agree.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kougar24 on February 06, 2011, 08:22:14 AM
The whole JO story isn't truly told, though, until we get a stat for # of rebounds that bounce off his hands.

he has really bad hands.

awful

this is really the only thing I hate about him.

Me too, but I hate it a lot. Well, I also hate his repeated misses from 4 feet in.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: catzacker on February 06, 2011, 08:29:09 AM
The whole JO story isn't truly told, though, until we get a stat for # of rebounds that bounce off his hands.

he has really bad hands.

awful

this is really the only thing I hate about him.

Me too, but I hate it a lot. Well, I also hate his repeated misses from 4 feet in.

meh.  i'm fine with his colon-like offensive ability, just needs better hands (i.e. more rebounds).
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: EMAWzified on February 06, 2011, 10:06:52 AM
I've never really looked at his hands but got to believe they are huge but maybe not strong. Much more a problem of anticipation and playing at game speed, IMO.
I liked the two identical little forward-leaning hooks or floaters yesterday, neither of which went in. Promise in them, I think.
Anyway, I'm a JHR fan and always have been.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: SkinnyBenny on February 06, 2011, 11:17:37 AM
Jordan Henriquez-Roberts has coffee cups for hands.  (Stole that from kats65, my game buddy.)
 :dubious:
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: CrushNasty on February 06, 2011, 11:37:13 AM
His skill set reminds me of Luis.

Not body type, not being a starter vs. 4th off the bench, but the way he plays.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Clevey 2 Times on February 06, 2011, 11:50:16 AM
I think JO has a higher ceiling than anybody else on the team. He's a 7 footer who is willing to attack the basket aggressively, and that is pretty rare. Will he ever reach his potential? Doubtful, but it seems pretty dumb to hate on him as a sophomore.

if he was 6'6", 260 with great hands would you think he had a lower ceiling?

Yes. Having great hands already would leave less room for improvement, and he wouldn't have the same length advantage that he has now. Seriously, JO is very raw, but when he does something right, he looks really good doing it.

I agree with this.  JO's height and mentality could make him the only eventual NBA'er on this team.  The NBA has had some real cacty 7'+'ers in the past.  
As far as career ceiling goes, I agree.

Highest ceiling on the team? Wow, just wow.

NBA, umm no.

Also, there is really nothing on the basketball floor that he "looks really good doing". Henriquez will not be as good as Paul Miller was for the Shockers.

I thought he played well for a guy wearing clown shoes and spraying ISU fans with his trick, squirt gun flower pinned to his jersey during media timeouts.

Seriously, Pervis Pasco is better.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: CNS on February 06, 2011, 12:27:15 PM
I think JO has a higher ceiling than anybody else on the team. He's a 7 footer who is willing to attack the basket aggressively, and that is pretty rare. Will he ever reach his potential? Doubtful, but it seems pretty dumb to hate on him as a sophomore.

if he was 6'6", 260 with great hands would you think he had a lower ceiling?

Yes. Having great hands already would leave less room for improvement, and he wouldn't have the same length advantage that he has now. Seriously, JO is very raw, but when he does something right, he looks really good doing it.

I agree with this.  JO's height and mentality could make him the only eventual NBA'er on this team.  The NBA has had some real cacty 7'+'ers in the past.  
As far as career ceiling goes, I agree.

Highest ceiling on the team? Wow, just wow.

NBA, umm no.

Also, there is really nothing on the basketball floor that he "looks really good doing". Henriquez will not be as good as Paul Miller was for the Shockers.

I thought he played well for a guy wearing clown shoes and spraying ISU fans with his trick, squirt gun flower pinned to his jersey during media timeouts.

Seriously, Pervis Pasco is better.

yes he looks awkward.  the nba has had many shitty players on benches simply due to them being over seven foot tall.  not saying that he willbe remarkable, but his height could get him on a roster for a year or two.  especially if he develops more in the next two years.

I dont see anyone else on our team that will get some equivalent or better career oppy.  therefore, yes, it is possible for jordan to have the highest career ceiling on this team.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: michigancat on February 06, 2011, 12:50:38 PM
Pervis Pasco was really good. He would most likely be a starter on any KSU team since he left. :dunno:
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: sys on February 06, 2011, 02:01:21 PM
Pervis Pasco was really good. He would most likely be a starter on any KSU team since he left. :dunno:

yeah, he was.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: sys on February 06, 2011, 02:02:23 PM
Yes. Having great hands already would leave less room for improvement, and he wouldn't have the same length advantage that he has now. Seriously, JO is very raw, but when he does something right, he looks really good doing it.

thanks for helping me understand you people.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on February 06, 2011, 03:07:53 PM
Yes. Having great hands already would leave less room for improvement, and he wouldn't have the same length advantage that he has now. Seriously, JO is very raw, but when he does something right, he looks really good doing it.

thanks for helping me understand you people.

You're welcome.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Clevey 2 Times on February 07, 2011, 09:01:27 PM
Pervis Pasco was really good. He would most likely be a starter on any KSU team since he left. :dunno:

yeah, he was.

Except for the mental side of the game, yes he was good. My point was to say that if a guy like Pasco who is more athletic than Henriquez, couldn't sniff the League, then Jordan will have no chance.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: CNS on February 07, 2011, 10:03:53 PM
7' vs 6'-9"
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: MakeItRain on February 08, 2011, 03:03:48 AM
I think JO has a higher ceiling than anybody else on the team. He's a 7 footer who is willing to attack the basket aggressively, and that is pretty rare. Will he ever reach his potential? Doubtful, but it seems pretty dumb to hate on him as a sophomore.

if he was 6'6", 260 with great hands would you think he had a lower ceiling?

IMO his ceiling/upside, as I've mentioned several times, comes from his aggression.  His issues are correctable, will they be :dunno: the hands thing should have been fixed already. 
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: wabash909 on February 08, 2011, 06:00:17 AM
Pervis Pasco was really good. He would most likely be a starter on any KSU team since he left. :dunno:

yeah, he was.

Except for the mental side of the game, yes he was good. My point was to say that if a guy like Pasco who is more athletic than Henriquez, couldn't sniff the League, then Jordan will have no chance.

Stop the Pasco/JO comparisons please.

In terms of intelligence, he was no more stupid than Samuels or Kelly.

In terms of basketball ability, I'd actually take him 100% of the time over Jam Sam, who you ought to be comparing him to.


Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kso_FAN on February 08, 2011, 07:38:57 AM
Pervis Pasco was really good. He would most likely be a starter on any KSU team since he left. :dunno:

yeah, he was.

Except for the mental side of the game, yes he was good. My point was to say that if a guy like Pasco who is more athletic than Henriquez, couldn't sniff the League, then Jordan will have no chance.

Stop the Pasco/JO comparisons please.

In terms of intelligence, he was no more stupid than Samuels or Kelly.

In terms of basketball ability, I'd actually take him 100% of the time over Jam Sam, who you ought to be comparing him to.

Yeah, some of these comparisons are silly.

We've never really had a player like JHR on the roster. You have to consider his length, I mean really the only fair comparisons are Hughes or Bennett, but neither was nearly as athletic.

Pasco comparisons are tough b/c he was more of a back to the basket type player and a good athlete. Probably closest to Kelly on this team, not as skilled, but probably more of a banger/physical.

Samuels comparison is probably Massey b/c both are undersized guys that don't have a lot of perimeter skill. Massey was much more of a scorer, Samuels probably a better rebounder defender.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: wabash909 on February 08, 2011, 08:45:08 AM
Pervis Pasco was really good. He would most likely be a starter on any KSU team since he left. :dunno:

yeah, he was.

Except for the mental side of the game, yes he was good. My point was to say that if a guy like Pasco who is more athletic than Henriquez, couldn't sniff the League, then Jordan will have no chance.

Stop the Pasco/JO comparisons please.

In terms of intelligence, he was no more stupid than Samuels or Kelly.

In terms of basketball ability, I'd actually take him 100% of the time over Jam Sam, who you ought to be comparing him to.

Yeah, some of these comparisons are silly.

We've never really had a player like JHR on the roster. You have to consider his length, I mean really the only fair comparisons are Hughes or Bennett, but neither was nearly as athletic.

Pasco comparisons are tough b/c he was more of a back to the basket type player and a good athlete. Probably closest to Kelly on this team, not as skilled, but probably more of a banger/physical.

Samuels comparison is probably Massey b/c both are undersized guys that don't have a lot of perimeter skill. Massey was much more of a scorer, Samuels probably a better rebounder defender.


Pasco was a damn good player - loved the guy.

It's too bad his entire career was overshadowed by one boneheaded play, because he was a solid big man for us.






Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kougar24 on February 08, 2011, 09:18:28 AM
I think JO has a higher ceiling than anybody else on the team. He's a 7 footer who is willing to attack the basket aggressively, and that is pretty rare. Will he ever reach his potential? Doubtful, but it seems pretty dumb to hate on him as a sophomore.

if he was 6'6", 260 with great hands would you think he had a lower ceiling?

Yes. Having great hands already would leave less room for improvement, and he wouldn't have the same length advantage that he has now. Seriously, JO is very raw, but when he does something right, he looks really good doing it.

JO's hands aren't going to improve over the next two years. They are what they're always going to be.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: pissclams on February 08, 2011, 09:22:57 AM
i don't think his hands are bad enough to warrant a hands talking point.  bigger issue is what he tries to do with the ball when he catches. 

teach him to keep his elbows out and the ball up when he catches, and never really dribble, and the hands talking point will go away.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: CNS on February 08, 2011, 09:24:29 AM
Sometimes hands are more of an attention/focus issue, which is easily overcome with practice and experience.  Especially for big men.  Common for them to want to catch it and hurry up and do something with it as quick as possible when they are young. 

I am on the JO wagon until further notice.

Also, cannot overstate how I like his want to dribble drive.  Love this.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kougar24 on February 08, 2011, 09:24:29 AM
i don't think his hands are bad enough to warrant a hands talking point.  bigger issue is what he tries to do with the ball when he catches. 

teach him to keep his elbows out and the ball up when he catches, and never really dribble, and the hands talking point will go away.

That would be a big win in the JO Development Process, but I don't see him ever accepting that with his obvious adoration for dribbling basketballs.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Poster formerly known as jthutch on February 08, 2011, 09:34:28 AM
i don't think his hands are bad enough to warrant a hands talking point.  bigger issue is what he tries to do with the ball when he catches. 

teach him to keep his elbows out and the ball up when he catches, and never really dribble, and the hands talking point will go away.

That would be a big win in the JO Development Process, but I don't see him ever accepting that with his obvious adoration for dribbling basketballs.
Yeah and it makes it hard for him to dunk on bitches.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: yoga-like_abana on February 08, 2011, 09:48:06 AM
Likes: Tall, Great Dancer(teach me how to bernie), Anorexic Shaq, Goomba, 3pt contest @ Madness in Manhattan
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on February 08, 2011, 09:54:42 AM
JO's hands aren't going to improve over the next two years. They are what they're always going to be.

If he just spends an hour a day catching medicine balls that somebody chucks at him all offseason, the hands talking point will go away.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: michigancat on February 08, 2011, 10:26:36 AM
There's this guy at the Y, that every time a shot is missed, he yells "GRAB IT!" as if everyone on his team is not trying to. :jerk:
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 08, 2011, 10:43:01 AM
In terms of JO's hands, you do you form a saying in the same realm of "If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball"
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kougar24 on February 08, 2011, 12:24:36 PM
JO's hands aren't going to improve over the next two years. They are what they're always going to be.

If he just spends an hour a day catching medicine balls that somebody chucks at him all offseason, the hands talking point will go away.

Or he'll repeatedly break his nose and/or collarbone, and we'll have a whole new talking point in addition to his horrible hands.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: sys on February 08, 2011, 12:55:30 PM
We've never really had a player like JHR on the roster. You have to consider his length, I mean really the only fair comparisons are Hughes or Bennett, but neither was nearly as athletic.

hughes was considerably more athletic, unless perhaps you include endurance as an element of athleticism.  maybe not quite as long.


also suffered from poor hands relative to his other physical gifts.  i'm not aware of many/any players that developed from poor handed underclassmen to good handed upperclassmen.  i don't think that happens.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kso_FAN on February 08, 2011, 01:10:41 PM
We've never really had a player like JHR on the roster. You have to consider his length, I mean really the only fair comparisons are Hughes or Bennett, but neither was nearly as athletic.

hughes was considerably more athletic, unless perhaps you include endurance as an element of athleticism.  maybe not quite as long.

Yeah, I hedged on Hughes being less athletic, I don't know that I'd go so far to say he was considerably more though. And yes, his amazing lack of endurance was factored in.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Trim on February 08, 2011, 01:14:35 PM
We've never really had a player like JHR on the roster. You have to consider his length, I mean really the only fair comparisons are Hughes or Bennett, but neither was nearly as athletic.

hughes was considerably more athletic, unless perhaps you include endurance as an element of athleticism.  maybe not quite as long.


also suffered from poor hands relative to his other physical gifts.  i'm not aware of many/any players that developed from poor handed underclassmen to good handed upperclassmen.  i don't think that happens.

Tyler Hughes' hands, or at least hand, was awesome when doing the horns-down sign.  When committing sex offenses, not so much.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: sys on February 08, 2011, 01:16:01 PM
Yeah, I hedged on Hughes being less athletic, I don't know that I'd go so far to say he was considerably more though. And yes, his amazing lack of endurance was factored in.

i include strength.  if it is restricted to just quickness/hops/balance, then i'd change it to slightly more athletic.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: mcmwcat on February 08, 2011, 02:11:21 PM
We've never really had a player like JHR on the roster. You have to consider his length, I mean really the only fair comparisons are Hughes or Bennett, but neither was nearly as athletic.

hughes was considerably more athletic, unless perhaps you include endurance as an element of athleticism.  maybe not quite as long.


also suffered from poor hands relative to his other physical gifts.  i'm not aware of many/any players that developed from poor handed underclassmen to good handed upperclassmen.  i don't think that happens.

yeah. i see good-soft-hands as more of a natural ability than learned.

you also have to have the ability to take a lot of contact and be able catch/grab the ball to be considered to have good hands.  doubt JHR will ever be that guy no matter how hard he works at it.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 08, 2011, 04:14:55 PM
Now a starter?   :surprised:
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: sys on February 08, 2011, 04:18:01 PM
:prayingthatthecorrelationnotedinthethreadtitleisspecious:
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Skipper44 on February 08, 2011, 04:18:46 PM
Starter? JHR is the mvp
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: michigancat on February 08, 2011, 04:19:51 PM
We've never really had a player like JHR on the roster. You have to consider his length, I mean really the only fair comparisons are Hughes or Bennett, but neither was nearly as athletic.

hughes was considerably more athletic, unless perhaps you include endurance as an element of athleticism.  maybe not quite as long.


also suffered from poor hands relative to his other physical gifts.  i'm not aware of many/any players that developed from poor handed underclassmen to good handed upperclassmen.  i don't think that happens.

yeah. i see good-soft-hands as more of a natural ability than learned.

you also have to have the ability to take a lot of contact and be able catch/grab the ball to be considered to have good hands.  doubt JHR will ever be that guy no matter how hard he works at it.

This is not true. Everything about JHR can be improved. It's ludicrous to think you can't improve your "hands".
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: sys on February 08, 2011, 04:35:27 PM
This is not true. Everything about JHR can be improved. It's ludicrous to think you can't improve your "hands".

sure.  everything can be improved.  at the same time, different traits have different ranges of improvement possible.  because, the range of possible variation is ultimately determined by physical characters.

it is rare to see a really bad ft shooter become a good ft shooter.  i think it is equally rare for a 20 year old with really bad hands to develop good hands.  i'm less confident of the latter though, partly because it is harder to measure.  i'd love to see empirical evidence either way.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: mcmwcat on February 08, 2011, 05:44:22 PM
We've never really had a player like JHR on the roster. You have to consider his length, I mean really the only fair comparisons are Hughes or Bennett, but neither was nearly as athletic.

hughes was considerably more athletic, unless perhaps you include endurance as an element of athleticism.  maybe not quite as long.


also suffered from poor hands relative to his other physical gifts.  i'm not aware of many/any players that developed from poor handed underclassmen to good handed upperclassmen.  i don't think that happens.

yeah. i see good-soft-hands as more of a natural ability than learned.

you also have to have the ability to take a lot of contact and be able catch/grab the ball to be considered to have good hands.  doubt JHR will ever be that guy no matter how hard he works at it.

This is not true. Everything about JHR can be improved. It's ludicrous to think you can't improve your "hands".

someone like Michael Beasley was born with stickem in his fingerprints.  you can't teach that.   not saying JHR can't improve his hands, but to expect him to catch everything or rebound like someone who is naturally blessed w/ sticky hands is unrealistic
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: michigancat on February 08, 2011, 06:35:08 PM
someone like Michael Beasley was born with stickem in his fingerprints.  you can't teach that.   not saying JHR can't improve his hands, but to expect him to catch everything or rebound like someone who is naturally blessed w/ sticky hands is unrealistic

I didn't expect him to be Michael Beasley, but you can improve hands or coordination or whatever just as much as you can anything else. Catching/ball handling are skills that can be practiced.

Also, I'm sure Mike Beasley played a eff of a lot more basketball than JHR, and therefore has developed superior skills (at everything). Part of it is because he was 6'7" when he was 12 or something, while JHR has probably grown at KSU, but a lot of Beasley's skill comes from hard work.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: MakeItRain on February 08, 2011, 07:39:54 PM
i don't think his hands are bad enough to warrant a hands talking point.  bigger issue is what he tries to do with the ball when he catches. 

teach him to keep his elbows out and the ball up when he catches, and never really dribble, and the hands talking point will go away.

That would be a big win in the JO Development Process, but I don't see him ever accepting that with his obvious adoration for dribbling basketballs.

Of all the talking points in the world this is by far the dumbest.  He doesn't dribble on the blocks, he repeatedly shoots that jump hook.  He dribbles when he catches facing up.  So essentially we have a large group of tards butt hurt because he goes to the rim and doesn't settle for jump shots.
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: Clevey 2 Times on February 08, 2011, 10:38:56 PM
Pervis Pasco was really good. He would most likely be a starter on any KSU team since he left. :dunno:

yeah, he was.

Except for the mental side of the game, yes he was good. My point was to say that if a guy like Pasco who is more athletic than Henriquez, couldn't sniff the League, then Jordan will have no chance.

Stop the Pasco/JO comparisons please.

In terms of intelligence, he was no more stupid than Samuels or Kelly.

In terms of basketball ability, I'd actually take him 100% of the time over Jam Sam, who you ought to be comparing him to.

Yeah, some of these comparisons are silly.

We've never really had a player like JHR on the roster. You have to consider his length, I mean really the only fair comparisons are Hughes or Bennett, but neither was nearly as athletic.

Pasco comparisons are tough b/c he was more of a back to the basket type player and a good athlete. Probably closest to Kelly on this team, not as skilled, but probably more of a banger/physical.

Samuels comparison is probably Massey b/c both are undersized guys that don't have a lot of perimeter skill. Massey was much more of a scorer, Samuels probably a better rebounder defender.

Your're right, Pasco-JHR comparisons aren't fair. This thread, IMO, just went into silly land when someone brought up the NBA and JHR.

FWIW, I'd take JHR over Bennett and Hughes. He seems tougher than the former and less of a sex offender than the latter.

God, wouldn't it be nice to have Pervis now and not CK? At least Perv busted his ass every game. Imagine the alley oop highlights Pasco would have had playing with Denis...
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: kougar24 on February 09, 2011, 12:52:22 PM
i don't think his hands are bad enough to warrant a hands talking point.  bigger issue is what he tries to do with the ball when he catches. 

teach him to keep his elbows out and the ball up when he catches, and never really dribble, and the hands talking point will go away.

That would be a big win in the JO Development Process, but I don't see him ever accepting that with his obvious adoration for dribbling basketballs.

Of all the talking points in the world this is by far the dumbest.  He doesn't dribble on the blocks, he repeatedly shoots that jump hook.  He dribbles when he catches facing up.  So essentially we have a large group of tards butt hurt because he goes to the rim and doesn't settle for jump shots.

This makes me think you haven't watched him play, at all. He dribbles from the low block constantly. Probably 90% of the time he's fed the ball down there (assuming he actually catches it first).
Title: Re: Anyone else notice the correlation of JO playing and losing the lead?
Post by: MakeItRain on February 09, 2011, 01:53:06 PM
i don't think his hands are bad enough to warrant a hands talking point.  bigger issue is what he tries to do with the ball when he catches. 

teach him to keep his elbows out and the ball up when he catches, and never really dribble, and the hands talking point will go away.

That would be a big win in the JO Development Process, but I don't see him ever accepting that with his obvious adoration for dribbling basketballs.

Of all the talking points in the world this is by far the dumbest.  He doesn't dribble on the blocks, he repeatedly shoots that jump hook.  He dribbles when he catches facing up.  So essentially we have a large group of tards butt hurt because he goes to the rim and doesn't settle for jump shots.

This makes me think you haven't watched him play, at all. He dribbles from the low block constantly. Probably 90% of the time he's fed the ball down there (assuming he actually catches it first).

crap busted