Author Topic: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!  (Read 48830 times)

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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #325 on: December 06, 2017, 01:12:47 PM »
I have not been following the case very closely, but I can guarantee you the Supreme Court is not going to look at this narrowly unless it is a 5-4 decision leaning to the conservative side.  It is next to impossible for the Court to say that this instance of refusing to sell to a gay couple for their wedding is different than any other store/restaurant/establishment refusing to serve someone based on their sexuality.

I personally think this is the dumbest dispute in the world. 

To the baker: gmafb, you are not compromising your morals or religious beliefs by selling a rough ridin' cake to a same-sex couple.  Do you really ask all your customers what they are going to do with the stuff you are baking?

To the couple: is the cake that good that you are willing to deal with an obvious bigot?  Let your wallet do the talking and boycott the bakery out of business. (Of course I get that this was obviously set up for a legal battle)

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #326 on: December 06, 2017, 01:24:22 PM »
not confusing - the cake shop discriminated based on sexuality.
I totally agree if it's refusing to sell them like anything....like "no you can't buy that brownie cause gays"....this does have a little nuance to it.

Agreed, and that "nuance" is the whole point of the case. This isn't a tough issue. It is irrelevant whether or not gay marriage was legal in Colorado or legal now. Businesses are free to discriminate against activities, speech, or ideas they disagree regardless of whether they are legal.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #327 on: December 06, 2017, 01:25:55 PM »
Agreed, and that "nuance" is the whole point of the case. This isn't a tough issue. It is irrelevant whether or not gay marriage was legal in Colorado or legal now. Businesses are free to discriminate against activities, speech, or ideas they disagree regardless of whether they are legal.

lol what???

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #328 on: December 06, 2017, 01:26:35 PM »
This is like a white trash walking into the official apparel store of the black panthers and demanding they make him a klansman robe, and when they say no thanks filing a lawsuit.

It's rough ridin' absurd there's litigation over this.

No, it’s more like a gay guy going into a store that sells Klan robes and being unable to buy a Klan robe because he’s gay.

That's not what this is like. The owner says he sells to gay people all the time, and I believe him, though that obviously begs the fun exercise of proving which of your customers are gay....
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #329 on: December 06, 2017, 01:27:34 PM »
hypothetical: could a bakery owner legally refuse to make a cake with a swastika on it for a neo nazi's 40th bday bash?

not if they sold swastika cakes to non-neo nazis

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #330 on: December 06, 2017, 01:28:35 PM »
Agreed, and that "nuance" is the whole point of the case. This isn't a tough issue. It is irrelevant whether or not gay marriage was legal in Colorado or legal now. Businesses are free to discriminate against activities, speech, or ideas they disagree regardless of whether they are legal.

lol what???

Take the Westboro Baptist Church, for example. They express views that most people would find repugnant, but legal. They are engaged in lawful protest and advocacy. Should businesses have the right to refuse to provide services in support of these viewpoints that they rightly find offensive? Absolutely.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #331 on: December 06, 2017, 01:30:41 PM »
This is like a white trash walking into the official apparel store of the black panthers and demanding they make him a klansman robe, and when they say no thanks filing a lawsuit.

It's rough ridin' absurd there's litigation over this.

No, it’s more like a gay guy going into a store that sells Klan robes and being unable to buy a Klan robe because he’s gay.

That's not what this is like. The owner says he sells to gay people all the time, and I believe him, though that obviously begs the fun exercise of proving which of your customers are gay....
He would say the cute ones

Offline 8manpick

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #332 on: December 06, 2017, 01:31:52 PM »
First amendment. People should vote with their wallets and force these repugnant people out of business, but the government shouldn't force them to perform services against their beliefs.
:adios:

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #333 on: December 06, 2017, 01:33:05 PM »
Agreed, and that "nuance" is the whole point of the case. This isn't a tough issue. It is irrelevant whether or not gay marriage was legal in Colorado or legal now. Businesses are free to discriminate against activities, speech, or ideas they disagree regardless of whether they are legal.

lol what???

Take the Westboro Baptist Church, for example. They express views that most people would find repugnant, but legal. They are engaged in lawful protest and advocacy. Should businesses have the right to refuse to provide services in support of these viewpoints that they rightly find offensive? Absolutely.

A business could refuse to serve Westboro but it couldn't refuse to serve all Christians.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #334 on: December 06, 2017, 01:33:22 PM »
hypothetical: could a bakery owner legally refuse to make a cake with a swastika on it for a neo nazi's 40th bday bash?

Yes. But if a neo-nazi bought a plain cake and then drew a swastika on it himself, the bakery could not legally refuse to sell him the cake.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #335 on: December 06, 2017, 01:36:42 PM »
So presumably the couple was looking to purchase a cake from the options the baker had available.  There is no argument they were looking for something that was not in his portfolio, so no artistic element here.  They were simply looking to purchase something he likely made for many other people.

So the question is simply, can a business or person refuse to serve another person because they believe that person will use the item in a manner that is counter to their religious beliefs?  That is such a ridiculously difficult thing to parse.  If the Court answers yes to that question, you would end up with all kinds of crazy scenarios.  Probably even instances where the seller claims the buyer was going to use the item for a purpose that violated his/her religious beliefs and the buyer denies it.

And I would appreciate if any discussions about this case clarify that the baker is a "self-proclaimed Christian."  No real Christian actually believes their religious values are compromised by serving someone else--even if they disagree with that person's beliefs or practices.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #336 on: December 06, 2017, 01:39:06 PM »
I think it's likely the baker attends a church comprised of other like-minded bigots.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #337 on: December 06, 2017, 01:44:40 PM »
Agreed, and that "nuance" is the whole point of the case. This isn't a tough issue. It is irrelevant whether or not gay marriage was legal in Colorado or legal now. Businesses are free to discriminate against activities, speech, or ideas they disagree regardless of whether they are legal.

lol what???

Take the Westboro Baptist Church, for example. They express views that most people would find repugnant, but legal. They are engaged in lawful protest and advocacy. Should businesses have the right to refuse to provide services in support of these viewpoints that they rightly find offensive? Absolutely.

no, business should not have that right if they offer the same services to everyone. They should have to sell WBC their standard cakes.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #338 on: December 06, 2017, 01:46:40 PM »
hypothetical: could a bakery owner legally refuse to make a cake with a swastika on it for a neo nazi's 40th bday bash?

Yes. But if a neo-nazi bought a plain cake and then drew a swastika on it himself, the bakery could not legally refuse to sell him the cake.

Well yeah, actually they could. Being a neo-Nazi is not a protected classification.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline Trogdor

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #339 on: December 06, 2017, 01:48:04 PM »
The cake dude might allegedly win his case. He's claiming that his cake is art and therefore doesn't have to express his art if chooses so or something like that.

Basically the dude doesn't have a problem baking the cake, he just doesn't want to decorate it like how they want it.

So he might win.

#hottakes
@Trogdor_gE

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #340 on: December 06, 2017, 01:50:00 PM »
hypothetical: could a bakery owner legally refuse to make a cake with a swastika on it for a neo nazi's 40th bday bash?

Yes. But if a neo-nazi bought a plain cake and then drew a swastika on it himself, the bakery could not legally refuse to sell him the cake.

Well yeah, actually they could. Being a neo-Nazi is not a protected classification.

Does the baker have to have a sign that says "We reserve the right to refuse service to neo-nazis"?

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #341 on: December 06, 2017, 01:53:31 PM »
Agreed, and that "nuance" is the whole point of the case. This isn't a tough issue. It is irrelevant whether or not gay marriage was legal in Colorado or legal now. Businesses are free to discriminate against activities, speech, or ideas they disagree regardless of whether they are legal.

lol what???

Take the Westboro Baptist Church, for example. They express views that most people would find repugnant, but legal. They are engaged in lawful protest and advocacy. Should businesses have the right to refuse to provide services in support of these viewpoints that they rightly find offensive? Absolutely.

no, business should not have that right if they offer the same services to everyone. They should have to sell WBC their standard cakes.

Really? You really believe that? Hey, at least we're getting to the crux of the disagreement. The federal civil rights act of 1964 only prohibits discrimination based upon race, color, religion, or national origin. Some states have expanded this to other protected classifications. But no state has ever said that a business has no right to refuse service to any customer for any reason. Would you consider that freedom?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #342 on: December 06, 2017, 01:54:07 PM »
hypothetical: could a bakery owner legally refuse to make a cake with a swastika on it for a neo nazi's 40th bday bash?

Yes. But if a neo-nazi bought a plain cake and then drew a swastika on it himself, the bakery could not legally refuse to sell him the cake.

Well yeah, actually they could. Being a neo-Nazi is not a protected classification.

Does the baker have to have a sign that says "We reserve the right to refuse service to neo-nazis"?

Unless there any specific state laws I'm not aware of, those sorts of signs are completely unnecessary.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #343 on: December 06, 2017, 02:00:37 PM »
So, a business can refuse to serve someone because the person is wearing a red shirt, and the business owner does not like red?

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #344 on: December 06, 2017, 02:02:28 PM »
So, a business can refuse to serve someone because the person is wearing a red shirt, and the business owner does not like red?

Absolutely. I don't think they'll be in business long with that mindset, but it sure isn't illegal.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #345 on: December 06, 2017, 02:05:46 PM »
So, a business can refuse to serve someone because the person is wearing a red shirt, and the business owner does not like red?

Absolutely. I don't think they'll be in business long with that mindset, but it sure isn't illegal.

What if they just don’t like how red shirts look on black people. You know, like, they would totally serve black people, but wearing a red shirt with their skin tone just offends the baker’s fashion sense.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #346 on: December 06, 2017, 02:06:00 PM »


Agreed, and that "nuance" is the whole point of the case. This isn't a tough issue. It is irrelevant whether or not gay marriage was legal in Colorado or legal now. Businesses are free to discriminate against activities, speech, or ideas they disagree regardless of whether they are legal.

lol what???

Take the Westboro Baptist Church, for example. They express views that most people would find repugnant, but legal. They are engaged in lawful protest and advocacy. Should businesses have the right to refuse to provide services in support of these viewpoints that they rightly find offensive? Absolutely.

no, business should not have that right if they offer the same services to everyone. They should have to sell WBC their standard cakes.

Really? You really believe that? Hey, at least we're getting to the crux of the disagreement. The federal civil rights act of 1964 only prohibits discrimination based upon race, color, religion, or national origin. Some states have expanded this to other protected classifications. But no state has ever said that a business has no right to refuse service to any customer for any reason. Would you consider that freedom?

Well you'd be discriminating WBC based on their religion

Online star seed 7

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #347 on: December 06, 2017, 02:06:23 PM »
I have very conflicting feelings on this (and similar situations). Ultimately I don't really feel comfortable forcing business owners into transactions with people they don't want to do business with, but damn that leaves a lot open for horrible people like this baker.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #348 on: December 06, 2017, 02:09:14 PM »
I have very conflicting feelings on this (and similar situations). Ultimately I don't really feel comfortable forcing business owners into transactions with people they don't want to do business with, but damn that leaves a lot open for horrible people like this baker.

I have similar feelings, but we tried the totally free market approach in the 60s and 70s and it became obvious that too many people are just total assholes for it to work.

Offline Institutional Control

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Re: Freedom is really not applicable to Christian businesses!
« Reply #349 on: December 06, 2017, 02:13:21 PM »
A private business should absolutely be able to refuse to service to anyone they want for any reason.