Author Topic: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread  (Read 20266 times)

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #150 on: January 15, 2018, 08:26:39 AM »
That is really disappointing. If he was just some guy 5 years ago acting like that, I would say that he is a product of our culture where men are encouraged to talk women into sex. But now in light of everything that has happened recently and his particular experience and knowledge, there is no excuse or reason for that behavior.

Although, why would you go ahead and perform oral on someone that you already decided was acting creepy/assaulting you?

The aspect of this whole movement that most miss is that there is a large swath of women who don't want men to essentially sit around and wait for explicit consent. Despite the me too movement taking hold, changing hundreds of years of bedroom dynamics will take a little more than a couple of months to change.

If we're putting this in the same category as Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby then we will always have this issue. Women, don't agree how the sensual interaction should ideally go so how should men know that? In this specific case these people had mutual oral sex, she did not consent, he didn't have intercourse with her. She leaves, expresses to him that she was not comfortable with how things went down, he apologized. Isn't this exactly what consent looks like? Yes, he was persistent, a lot more than I would be, but by definition he never violated consent. She definitely has the right to consent to oral but not sexual intercourse, I don't even think that's all that unusual.

I think the only unseemly part of this is that we know it happened and the out of control mob that fail to understand the consequences of not being able to apply context and nuance.

Honestly speaking, if this constitutes assault there are a lot of men and women who are assailants who previously thought nothing of the interaction. We probably shouldn't leave it up to twitter to redefine the legal definition of assault because this woman didn't want to feel pressure to have sex after oral.

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #151 on: January 15, 2018, 10:51:29 AM »
I don't think anyone is suggesting Aziz should be charged with anything. But that's a pretty cringeworthy story and very relevant.

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Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #153 on: January 15, 2018, 11:09:48 AM »
Yeah, I don't think anything he did was assault. I do think that with his history of speaking out on this kind of thing, I'd have expected more respectful behavior (i.e. not trying to get her to continue after she clearly said she was uncomfortable). But it worked (she blew him after the plan was to just chill on the couch), so.....

I definitely think women have to take responsibility for saying no when they mean no. If a guy asks if he can pull out his penis and you say yes, under no duress, you can't later claim that you felt like you couldn't say no because he was a big star.

And in Aziz's cause, the woman had lots of opportunities to leave. She made no mention of ever feeling threatened or like he would hurt her or anything if she attempted to leave. Also, all of her non-verbal cues mean nothing. Guys aren't paying attention enough to pick up on those. The only things that matter are when she actually told him she was uncomfortable and needed to slow down. (Now, how clear was she on that? I don't know. Did she mumble or did she say it clearly?) But his actions don't fit the image I previously had of him. (Maybe that's on me for thinking his real personally was in line with his public persona.)

Also, the culture that most men grew up with is that it is perfectly normal for the guy to talk a woman (or girl) into sex. As MIR says, this isn't going to change overnight. I recognize that. Also, I imagine it is kind of awkward to get consent at every step of the process especially for people who are not all that talkative during sex in the first place.
Hopefully the things happening now will change the mindset of the boys who are coming of age now. (Not sure if it will though.)

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #154 on: January 15, 2018, 11:38:08 AM »
The Aziz story is basically "Baby it's Cold Outside" played out irl.


Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #156 on: January 15, 2018, 11:50:22 AM »
The Aziz story is basically "Baby it's Cold Outside" played out irl.

Except that when Baby It's Cold Outside was written, women couldn't really say yes even if they meant it. Society would label them a whore if they indicated any inclination that they might be willing to have sex so they had to play at saying no. Now, women have the freedom to clearly say yes or no - whichever they actually mean.

Offline wetwillie

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #157 on: January 15, 2018, 11:56:19 AM »
MIR nailed it.  I sat at my desk and nearly clapped.
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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #158 on: January 15, 2018, 11:56:50 AM »
3,000 words of revenge porn, I like that description
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #159 on: January 15, 2018, 11:59:32 AM »
https://twitter.com/GeekyLyndsay/status/952573628301717510

Unless there has been some indication of violence, women should say no if they mean no.

Offline wetwillie

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #160 on: January 15, 2018, 12:01:24 PM »
Women don't use overt communication unless like every covert method has failed miserably
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Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #161 on: January 15, 2018, 12:07:34 PM »
Women don't use overt communication unless like every covert method has failed miserably

Just like society has conditioned men to try to talk women into sex, it has conditioned women not to rock the boat too much. But both of these things need to change.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #162 on: January 15, 2018, 12:10:01 PM »
I don't really think we need to hear about every cringe worthy sexual encounter or example of a guy being a jerk who doesn't pick up on non-verbal cues just because the guy happens to be a celebrity.

Offline mocat

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #163 on: January 15, 2018, 12:14:12 PM »
I don't think anyone is suggesting Aziz should be charged with anything. But that's a pretty cringeworthy story and very relevant.

do you think he should be able to get a netflix special again?

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #164 on: January 15, 2018, 12:36:01 PM »


I don't think anyone is suggesting Aziz should be charged with anything. But that's a pretty cringeworthy story and very relevant.

do you think he should be able to get a netflix special again?

Yeah, probably.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #165 on: January 15, 2018, 12:37:20 PM »

Offline wELLsculptedbrows

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #166 on: January 15, 2018, 12:44:54 PM »
Should be stripped of his Golden Globe for the “cocktail chic” text alone.


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Offline cfbandyman

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #167 on: January 15, 2018, 01:13:33 PM »
Yeah, I also totally missed the apologized right away after she told him she felt uncomfortable, that right there should end it, digging it back up seems underhanded AF. Still something to discuss, but given how it was mutual oral and she felt pushed and eventually the whole thing stopped, really this seems more like a case of how something that could've been a lot worse ended up not being.
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Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #168 on: January 15, 2018, 02:18:25 PM »
I can see the point being for men to analyze some of their own past actions and the consequences on women.  I don't think Aziz is a terrible person or purposefully made her feel terrible.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #169 on: January 15, 2018, 02:25:45 PM »
We are truly in the dark age of dating. I think MIR’s post is completely accurate and completely obvious. Like 80% of women expect men to make the first move and are turned off if they don’t. And a good chunk of the reminder will act the exact same way but consider it nonconsensual if the man persists despite their being uncomfortable even if they do not make their discomfort clear.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #170 on: January 15, 2018, 06:26:56 PM »
Yeah, I don't think anything he did was assault. I do think that with his history of speaking out on this kind of thing, I'd have expected more respectful behavior (i.e. not trying to get her to continue after she clearly said she was uncomfortable). But it worked (she blew him after the plan was to just chill on the couch), so.....

I definitely think women have to take responsibility for saying no when they mean no. If a guy asks if he can pull out his penis and you say yes, under no duress, you can't later claim that you felt like you couldn't say no because he was a big star.

And in Aziz's cause, the woman had lots of opportunities to leave. She made no mention of ever feeling threatened or like he would hurt her or anything if she attempted to leave. Also, all of her non-verbal cues mean nothing. Guys aren't paying attention enough to pick up on those. The only things that matter are when she actually told him she was uncomfortable and needed to slow down. (Now, how clear was she on that? I don't know. Did she mumble or did she say it clearly?) But his actions don't fit the image I previously had of him. (Maybe that's on me for thinking his real personally was in line with his public persona.)

Also, the culture that most men grew up with is that it is perfectly normal for the guy to talk a woman (or girl) into sex. As MIR says, this isn't going to change overnight. I recognize that. Also, I imagine it is kind of awkward to get consent at every step of the process especially for people who are not all that talkative during sex in the first place.
Hopefully the things happening now will change the mindset of the boys who are coming of age now. (Not sure if it will though.)

As far as the nonverbal cues go, I'd be willing to bet that we'll find, in due time, that at some point of arousal there has to be some biology that comes into play that makes things like this a little more difficult to pick up on.

To speak to your last point, the actual last sentence, one part of this movement and newfound time of awareness is how the inexperience of young men come into play when dealing with all of this stuff. Again, it's important to parse all of this, as in most cases the line you don't cross is big, bold, and well defined. However, ensuring that you have full consent, every step of the way, can get confusing and cumbersome if you already don't know what in the hell you're doing in the bedroom. I don't want to make excuses for the dude, like I said, I never acted like Aziz did when I was single, but he doesn't strike me as a dude that got a lot of experience before he was famous, and just because he is now, that doesn't mean he is just raking it in every night, his behaviour doesn't speak to someone getting it in on the reg. And even for Aziz, this dude was just a regular guy, then he becomes famous, and the rules on how women interact with him gets completely flipped. How many times you think that guy is told no when he gets to that point?

It's all so complicated, maybe the religiously devout have it right, you won't have to worry about being confused if you're not getting it in until your wedding night.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/01/the-humiliation-of-aziz-ansari/550541/

Interesting that my FB friend who posted this an hour ago has already removed it....

The feminists mob are fighting that article hard. FWIW, I think race is a factor here, just maybe not in the way the author framed it. This guy grew up as a tiny Muslim Indian in South Carolina, he went from that to a wealthy celebrity that is still a tiny Muslim Indian man. How many meaningful sexual experiences did he have before he was famous and how does his sex as a famous dude informs his interactions with women in his condo?

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #171 on: January 15, 2018, 09:37:38 PM »


We are truly in the dark age of dating. I think MIR’s post is completely accurate and completely obvious. Like 80% of women expect men to make the first move and are turned off if they don’t. And a good chunk of the reminder will act the exact same way but consider it nonconsensual if the man persists despite their being uncomfortable even if they do not make their discomfort clear.

 Your takeaway from this story is that we are in "the dark age of dating"? Jeez some of y'all are coming off as real creeps ITT

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #172 on: January 15, 2018, 09:49:38 PM »
I would guess Aziz had a normal amount of sexual encounters before he was famous. He went to NYU and involved in comedy before parks and rec. And he's obviously a charismatic guy.

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Wackycat Harvey Weinstein Thread
« Reply #174 on: January 15, 2018, 11:13:35 PM »
I would guess Aziz had a normal amount of sexual encounters before he was famous. He went to NYU and involved in comedy before parks and rec. And he's obviously a charismatic guy.

He's a 5'5" Indian, the NYU crowd is exactly the type to look down on a 5'5", weird, dark skinned dude who isn't famous.