The Thread for Democratic Socialists/AOC watch with 24/7 AOC updates

[catastrophe]

What is the approach to fixing skyrocketing tuition costs that doesn't involve heavy-handed intervention from the government? Is there anything that can happen other than a lot of people just deciding not to go to college?

Well not to mention the federal government is probably the biggest cause of the tuition increases. Broad availability of loans and inability to discharge them through bankruptcy is probably the single greatest cause of rate increases.

[michigancat]

here are some more concrete discussions of "housing as a human right":

https://www.nesri.org/programs/what-is-the-human-right-to-housing

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-housing-rights-human-rights-1.4414854

as vague as that is, it mostly sounds not good.  much better just to give people money.

yeah, and that looks like a major part of Canada's plan (I get that straight cash is more efficient, but still).

In general, I think our laws place greater value on the rights of property owners over the safety and well being of people who can't afford to own property but need housing. Which makes sense given how the country was started, but becomes a big problem in places with crazy concentrations of jobs/wealth but scarce housing. I obviously need to think about it more, but I think another good start (beyond handing people cash) would be to dramatically overhaul restrictive zoning laws, which were racist to begin with and now exist primarily to protect the wealth of property owners.


I'm not sure if you followed this but to me it seemed like a good idea that was completely destroyed:

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/04/californias-transit-density-bill-stalls/558341/

[Rage Against the McKee]

What is the approach to fixing skyrocketing tuition costs that doesn't involve heavy-handed intervention from the government? Is there anything that can happen other than a lot of people just deciding not to go to college?

Well not to mention the federal government is probably the biggest cause of the tuition increases. Broad availability of loans and inability to discharge them through bankruptcy is probably the single greatest cause of rate increases.

Yeah. I'm just not sure what can be done about that now. I think a reasonable start would be to not loan any freshman or sophomore money that isn't attending an accredited community college with a class schedule that is transferable to a 4 year university. We also shouldn't give loans to any student attending a university with tuition over $10k. Maybe $10k is too high.

[8manpick]

Why is the government in the business of loaning money to students anyway?

[star seed 7]

Because an educated population is very positive

[michigancat]

Because an educated population is very positive

Yeah the government and economy clearly benefit. Really, it's the same reason the government builds roads.

[wetwillie]

Because an educated population is very positive

It’s the next housing bubble 2008 all over again.  People are getting degrees for 80k and getting 40k jobs and basically zero chance of repayment.  However we can incent people to go to trade schools etc would be good.

[star seed 7]

Those should be free too

[wetwillie]

Are you ok with a system that puts people into tracks relatively early in life in terms of what their end game educationally would be? I don’t see free education working if you give everyone an equal crack at all options.  I do like the idea of removing the obstacle of cost to talented people that wouldn’t normally have education opportunities but it would come at the cost of less talented  people having the option removed from them that isn’t today.

[star seed 7]

No, I wouldn't like that.

[michigancat]

Are you ok with a system that puts people into tracks relatively early in life in terms of what their end game educationally would be?

I don't see how that has anything to do with free higher education.

[wetwillie]

Are you ok with a system that puts people into tracks relatively early in life in terms of what their end game educationally would be?

I don't see how that has anything to do with free higher education.

I think in some form countries with free education currently do this, maybe I’m wrong though. I would think you would have to use some criteria if the government is footing the bill for everyone.

[michigancat]

I would think you would have to use some criteria if the government is footing the bill for everyone.

you mean like admissions standards and performance requirements to remain enrolled? I guess I don't understand why you would need to implement something like the German style of an 8th grade test determining your trade for life.

[star seed 7]

Yeah, I see no reason to remove admission requirements

[wetwillie]

yea the German model is really what I think of when free education model is discussed, does anyone currently offering free Education do it differently?

[michigancat]

yea the German model is really what I think of when free education model is discussed, does anyone currently offering free Education do it differently?

one model would be NYC Public schools that give 8th graders a test for admission to their "elite" high schools. In theory something similar could be done at the university level, like it already is. you're being really weird about this.

[sys]

yea the German model is really what I think of when free education model is discussed, does anyone currently offering free Education do it differently?

most countries in the world charge what we would consider nominal prices for higher education (iirc, mexico charges like 5 cents/semester to attend the national university in mexico city).  i'm not super up on how they all handle educational tracks earlier on, but i don't think most of them (definitely not all of them) have explicit trade/university tracks early on.  although, many would have sort of admissions reqs that would defacto eliminate almost everyone that hadn't been preparing for them through the equivalent of high school.

[sys]

I'm not sure if you followed this but to me it seemed like a good idea that was completely destroyed:

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/04/californias-transit-density-bill-stalls/558341/

i hadn't followed it, but agree with you that it seems like it was a good idea.

[michigancat]

yea the German model is really what I think of when free education model is discussed, does anyone currently offering free Education do it differently?

most countries in the world charge what we would consider nominal prices for higher education (iirc, mexico charges like 5 cents/semester to attend the national university in mexico city).  i'm not super up on how they all handle educational tracks earlier on, but i don't think most of them (definitely not all of them) have explicit trade/university tracks early on.  although, many would have sort of admissions reqs that would defacto eliminate almost everyone that hadn't been preparing for them through the equivalent of high school.

yeah that's a major criticism of the NYC admissions test. Families that can pay for tutors and test prep have a huge edge.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Because an educated population is very positive

Yeah the government and economy clearly benefit. Really, it's the same reason the government builds roads.

It depends on what the education is, just like it depends where the road goes.

The money being poured into higher education happens to coincide with stagnant wage growth, but individual debt continues to grow. The implication being higher education may not be worth the squeeze in the majority of instances.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Why is the government in the business of loaning money to students anyway?

It's highly profitable and creates generational indentured servitude. What government wouldn't want to be involved in that?

Want to borrow $200k to get a ph.d in [inser trivial liberal arts degree], no problem. Just pay us back 30% of your take home over the next 30 years. In any other context it would be couned predatory and regulated like payday lending.

[michigancat]

Because an educated population is very positive

Yeah the government and economy clearly benefit. Really, it's the same reason the government builds roads.

It depends on what the education is, just like it depends where the road goes.

The money being poured into higher education happens to coincide with stagnant wage growth, but individual debt continues to grow. The implication being higher education may not be worth the squeeze in the majority of instances.

are you implying that stagnant wage growth is caused by investment in higher education?  Of course it makes sense that it's a factor causing individual debt to grow. I have an idea that could help with that!

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Because an educated population is very positive

Yeah the government and economy clearly benefit. Really, it's the same reason the government builds roads.

It depends on what the education is, just like it depends where the road goes.

The money being poured into higher education happens to coincide with stagnant wage growth, but individual debt continues to grow. The implication being higher education may not be worth the squeeze in the majority of instances.

are you implying that stagnant wage growth is caused by investment in higher education?  Of course it makes sense that it's a factor causing individual debt to grow. I have an idea that could help with that!

You said the govt and economy benefit from higher education as if it were a fact. I'm not sure that's necessarily true. It's almost certainly limited to the type of higher education.

[Kat Kid]

We should have a debt jubilee every 25 years. This is a very Christian solution to this problem.

[420seriouscat69]

https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1022852142682570752