capitol riot

[420seriouscat69]

Companies being desperate for talent and workers having more leverage than ever seems like it could be a bit of a positive also.

Depends on the industry you’re in.

[420seriouscat69]

Tech is fine, pharma, hospitals, law, etc. There are many industries that won’t be with this new norm tho.

[MakeItRain]

Anyone that thinks January 6 was some sort of “crisis for democracy” assumes our country’s politics were somehow not already in shambles.

And Mitt Romney and Chris Coons having to cower while an 80 IQ football coach tries to strategize with Trump is funny, you can’t make me be sad or mad about it sorry.

i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on if democracy still has any value if it can't be used to force people to pay for your kids.

Does democracy have value when the people within it don't have equal opportunity to participate in it, nor have equal representation in said democracy?

I think the answer has to be yes. Starting with 100% true representative democracy and maintaining that for hundreds of years is some real fan fiction crap.

Our system has always allowed for incremental changes to push the scales off balance one way or the other.

This seems to me like you're saying that after 245 years of this democracy the fact that we still need a voting rights act is just the cost of doing business. Please tell me I'm reading this wrong and help me see what you see.

When I read something like this

A 2019 report published by the Electoral Integrity Project, an independent project based out of Harvard University, found that U.S. elections from July 2012 through December 2018 rated "lower than any other long-established democracies and affluent societies." Each country in the index was given a score out of 100 based on assessments of the quality of each of its elections – including categories such as electoral laws, voter registration and voting process – one month after polls closed.

The U.S. score of 61 – the same score as Mexico and Panama – is the second-lowest among liberal democracies and much lower than other countries in the Americas region, including Costa Rica, Uruguay and Chile. Denmark, Finland and Norway are among the top-ranked countries in the index, all with scores in the 80s.

I really struggle with the concept of incremental change to equal access to the supposed democracy, particularly from a protected class that has literally never had to deal with said incremental change.

[sys]

Companies being desperate for talent and workers having more leverage than ever seems like it could be a bit of a positive also.

Depends on the industry you’re in.

i don't mean to tell you your business, wackycat, but i have been given to understand that your company is paid to procure workers for companies desperate for talent.

[MakeItRain]

I don't understand, "well, things aren't the greatest now, so I don't really care if they get worse." Trying not to move backward is important to moving forward.

The problem with this is in the following year there has been literally zero changes to the way things are done, the way we govern, the language used by those who do govern. It's hard for me to take this seriously when the people directly effected by what happened didn't use the event to make even the smallest changes to what led to the event.

I don't think it's accurate to say that there is no difference. Trump admin was doing its best to MAGAfy every policy. That effort would have continued had he still been in office.

But what would really haved sucked is if we went down a path like Russia where Trump just didn't leave, kept kicking the can down the road, and after a while elections stopped mattering altogether.

The events you mention in the first paragraph have ultimately netted the same result were at now though. No policies have moved that haven't been cabinet directives or executive orders. If anything you can say, in some ways things have gotten worse for our democracy because conservative state governors and legislators have taken the initiative to, by their own words, make it more difficult to vote. There have been a proliferation of these initiatives in the past year but no counter to them, at all, and there doesn't appear to be one coming.

The paragraph about Russia is interesting and I wish I could say that something like that happening here is completely outside the realm of possibility, but I can't say that. What's even more damning though is even with a democrat in the white house, can you say for certain that there will be steps taken to avoid something like a Putin situation from taking hold here in let's say 2026 or 2028?

[Kat Kid]

I don't understand, "well, things aren't the greatest now, so I don't really care if they get worse." Trying not to move backward is important to moving forward.

The problem with this is in the following year there has been literally zero changes to the way things are done, the way we govern, three language used by those who do govern. It's hard for me to take this seriously when the people directly effected by what happened didn't use the event to make even the smallest changes to what led to the event.

I don't think it's accurate to say that there is no difference. Trump admin was doing its best to MAGAfy every policy. That effort would have continued had he still been in office.

I think the verdict is out on punishment for officials. Nixon's people got in trouble.

But what would really haved sucked is if we went down a path like Russia where Trump just didn't leave, kept kicking the can down the road, and after a while elections stopped mattering altogether.

Nixons people populated the Reagan and two Bush admins.

[Kat Kid]

I don’t think it’s a bad thing for employees. I’m happy for them, but it definitely effects the bottom line for companies overall. Paying more to retain talent, while profits are down. I want a job I can go to which I love and continue growing in said company, but covid is killing company projections overall. I honestly care about our shareholders not freaking out during this time.

Corporate Profits are at record highs.

[michigancat]

Companies being desperate for talent and workers having more leverage than ever seems like it could be a bit of a positive also.

Depends on the industry you’re in.

i don't mean to tell you your business, wackycat, but i have been given to understand that your company is paid to procure workers for companies desperate for talent.

Yeah and in my experience, recruiters are also in high demand themselves. Wacks, eff your shareholders and find a new job for more money.

[chum1]

No policies have moved that haven't been cabinet directives or executive orders. If anything you can say, in some ways things have gotten worse for our democracy because conservative state governors and legislators have taken the initiative to, by their own words, make it more difficult to vote. There have been a proliferation of these initiatives in the past year but no counter to them, at all, and there doesn't appear to be one coming.

There is some DOJ initiative to protect voting rights. They've already filed lawsuits against a couple of states. That definitely doesn't happen with a second Trump term. I sort of assume that pos pubs would be doing their pos pub voting stuff regardless because they're deathly afraid that they're losing their country.

The paragraph about Russia is interesting and I wish I could say that something like that happening here is completely outside the realm of possibility, but I can't say that. What's even more damning though is even with a democrat in the white house, can you say for certain that there will be steps taken to avoid something like a Putin situation from taking hold here in let's say 2026 or 2028?

The people who have decided that not losing their country is more important than democracy right now happen to be Republicans. I do think there is an inherently conservative basis for that. I don't see any similar sort of basis for Democrats to be anti-democracy immediately on the horizon.

[Kat Kid]

The big dispute as I see it is that some people on here think the riot was an indication that the populace is not to be trusted and that we must strengthen our institutions to smooth out any waves of populist anger by suppressing them and another camp thinks ultimately, though misplaced, the riot was a representation of how little power people have to change things.

I think the funniest part of all of it were the people that were worried about where the ballots were when the capitol was invaded as though they were some sort of magical objects. I was hoping people would see that the emperor’s clothes weren’t there but it seems like people think we just need to change the lighting.

[Sandstone Outcropping]

Xpost Ted Cruz, xpost pos pubs, xpost posttrump pubs

https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1479265209734905858?s=20

[chum1]

The big dispute as I see it is that some people on here think the riot was an indication that the populace is not to be trusted and that we must strengthen our institutions to smooth out any waves of populist anger by suppressing them and another camp thinks ultimately, though misplaced, the riot was a representation of how little power people have to change things.

I can see your characterization of the second group. I don't think "populace is not to be trusted" that needs to be suppressed is fair for the first group. I would say the first group sees a *segment* of the populace doing something that is harmful to the populace as a whole without really saying much about what should be done about it.

[Kat Kid]

I guess the first group holds out hope that the system as currently constructed is capable of dealing with the onslaught of chaos that is coming from climate, technology, the ongoing crisis of inequality and the attending catastrophes attached to each of those broad categories. I think that delaying the inevitable collapse of the system is actively harmful to solving those problems and so let’s get on with it.  I don’t hope to be ruled by fascist idiots any more than you, but I know an opportunity for change when I see it.

I means sys is all upset about this but simultaneously thinks that climate is a huge problem and is still holding in his head the idea that this system will do anything about it.

[catastrophe]

Anyone that thinks January 6 was some sort of “crisis for democracy” assumes our country’s politics were somehow not already in shambles.

And Mitt Romney and Chris Coons having to cower while an 80 IQ football coach tries to strategize with Trump is funny, you can’t make me be sad or mad about it sorry.

i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on if democracy still has any value if it can't be used to force people to pay for your kids.

Does democracy have value when the people within it don't have equal opportunity to participate in it, nor have equal representation in said democracy?

I think the answer has to be yes. Starting with 100% true representative democracy and maintaining that for hundreds of years is some real fan fiction crap.

Our system has always allowed for incremental changes to push the scales off balance one way or the other.

This seems to me like you're saying that after 245 years of this democracy the fact that we still need a voting rights act is just the cost of doing business. Please tell me I'm reading this wrong and help me see what you see.

When I read something like this

A 2019 report published by the Electoral Integrity Project, an independent project based out of Harvard University, found that U.S. elections from July 2012 through December 2018 rated "lower than any other long-established democracies and affluent societies." Each country in the index was given a score out of 100 based on assessments of the quality of each of its elections – including categories such as electoral laws, voter registration and voting process – one month after polls closed.

The U.S. score of 61 – the same score as Mexico and Panama – is the second-lowest among liberal democracies and much lower than other countries in the Americas region, including Costa Rica, Uruguay and Chile. Denmark, Finland and Norway are among the top-ranked countries in the index, all with scores in the 80s.

I really struggle with the concept of incremental change to equal access to the supposed democracy, particularly from a protected class that has literally never had to deal with said incremental change.

You did misread what I was saying because I simply answered your question of whether a democracy has value if it’s still deeply flawed. I’m not even saying we’re steadily going in the right direction, just that the system itself has immense value over pretty much any other alternative.

If I had to guess, I’d say most of the issues highlighted in that study stem from long-standing racially motivated policies that undeniably still exist in the US (I’d argue more than a lot of other developed nations). I’d love to hear what system of government you think is better suited to address that.

[Kat Kid]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/january-6-cheney/2022/01/06/72665baa-6f1e-11ec-974b-d1c6de8b26b0_story.html

This should be way more disturbing to people than the jan 6 riot. Holding powerful people to account is the test of a democracy not the weakest.

[steve dave]

[420seriouscat69]

Companies being desperate for talent and workers having more leverage than ever seems like it could be a bit of a positive also.

Depends on the industry you’re in.

i don't mean to tell you your business, wackycat, but i have been given to understand that your company is paid to procure workers for companies desperate for talent.

I work directly for a company that owns over 300+ dental offices and my job is to fill them with Dentist. It's a crap show out there right now. Not a 3rd party recruiting firm and we don't have a compensation plan for hires.

[420seriouscat69]

Companies being desperate for talent and workers having more leverage than ever seems like it could be a bit of a positive also.

Depends on the industry you’re in.

i don't mean to tell you your business, wackycat, but i have been given to understand that your company is paid to procure workers for companies desperate for talent.

Yeah and in my experience, recruiters are also in high demand themselves. Wacks, eff your shareholders and find a new job for more money.

I just got a huge promotion less than 2 weeks ago. They treat me pretty good. I do get hit up daily Linkedin tho. Staffing is just an issue in this market right now. That's all.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Rage, what do you do for work?

I'm an engineer. What do you consider a "good" economy to be, wacky? When I compare job openings at just about any company I'd want to work for, at higher pay than I am currently making to what things looked at in 2008, I'd be hard pressed to choose 2008, when most of the companies I wanted to work for were having mass layoffs. Are both economies bad in your mind? They are complete opposites.

[420seriouscat69]

Rage, what do you do for work?

I'm an engineer. What do you consider a "good" economy to be, wacky? When I compare job openings at just about any company I'd want to work for, at higher pay than I am currently making to what things looked at in 2008, I'd be hard pressed to choose 2008, when most of the companies I wanted to work for were having mass layoffs. Are both economies bad in your mind? They are complete opposites.

I graduated college in 2008 and my first job was 22K, so no crap, that was the worst. I just see this heading in a really bad place. Shits gonna pop.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Yeah, crap's always going to pop. That statement is always true until you start trying to guess the date that crap is going to pop.

[Phil Titola]

Rage, what do you do for work?

I'm an engineer. What do you consider a "good" economy to be, wacky? When I compare job openings at just about any company I'd want to work for, at higher pay than I am currently making to what things looked at in 2008, I'd be hard pressed to choose 2008, when most of the companies I wanted to work for were having mass layoffs. Are both economies bad in your mind? They are complete opposites.

I graduated college in 2008 and my first job was 22K, so no crap, that was the worst. I just see this heading in a really bad place. Shits gonna pop.

what specifically do you mean? what is a really bad place?  What is popping?  Do you extrapolate what is happening in the dental world across the broader economy?

[chum1]

I’d love to hear what system of government you think is better suited to address that.

I think the historical record shows that there are very many systems to make things worse for people overall and very few to make them better.

Here are two more groups of people.

A: things really can't get much worse than they are now
B: oh, no, things can absolutely get way, way rough ridin' worse

[MakeItRain]

No policies have moved that haven't been cabinet directives or executive orders. If anything you can say, in some ways things have gotten worse for our democracy because conservative state governors and legislators have taken the initiative to, by their own words, make it more difficult to vote. There have been a proliferation of these initiatives in the past year but no counter to them, at all, and there doesn't appear to be one coming.

There is some DOJ initiative to protect voting rights. They've already filed lawsuits against a couple of states. That definitely doesn't happen with a second Trump term. I sort of assume that pos pubs would be doing their pos pub voting stuff regardless because they're deathly afraid that they're losing their country.

I agree with this

The paragraph about Russia is interesting and I wish I could say that something like that happening here is completely outside the realm of possibility, but I can't say that. What's even more damning though is even with a democrat in the white house, can you say for certain that there will be steps taken to avoid something like a Putin situation from taking hold here in let's say 2026 or 2028?

The people who have decided that not losing their country is more important than democracy right now happen to be Republicans. I do think there is an inherently conservative basis for that. I don't see any similar sort of basis for Democrats to be anti-democracy immediately on the horizon.

you're correct here too, but my concern isn't democrats advocating for anti-democracy but for Democrats standing idly by while Republicans do whatever the hell they want

[BIG APPLE CAT]

I’d love to hear what system of government you think is better suited to address that.

I think the historical record shows that there are very many systems to make things worse for people overall and very few to make them better.

Here are two more groups of people.

A: things really can't get much worse than they are now
B: oh, no, things can absolutely get way, way rough ridin' worse

i think both of those things can be true depending on how you want to look at it. From an absolute standpoint, yes, there are most definitely places in this world where humans are treated much worse. But if we want to hold ourselves to the standard of a civilized first world country where basic humanity matters...where people are citizens and not subjects, its hard for me to come up with many other first world countries where the will of many is so badly under-represented.

And that's not a dems/pubs critcism...i think this is a system entirely set up to benefit a select few wealthy elites, and is set up in a way to ensure it stays that way in perpituity. Like seriously you guys, are there are of you who would say "yes i agree that the ultra wealthy deserve tax cuts and we'll just let the middle class shoulder the burden"? its ridiculous. And these systems are so thoroughly set in place that its hard to imagine anything happening that would even make the slightest dent, short of a total overhaul of the american system.

To America's credit...the system has done a magnificent job of convincing the average man that things are pretty great, and as long as you're willing to work hard and do the right thing, you'll do well in this country. And to a degree that's true, but nobody seems to realize or care that things don't need to be so difficult for so many people. Nobody in this country NEEDS to be in grinding abject poverty. The only people that need for others to be in that situation are billionaires who aspire to become trillionaires. And they do a fantastic job of convincing middle america that its the poor that are the problem, not the ultra wealthy.