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https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/05/us/jan-6-ray-epps-evidence.htmlBy Alan Feuer
Published May 5, 2022
Updated Oct. 13, 2022
Follow live updates on the House committee hearing on the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol.
Prominent Republicans — including former President Donald J. Trump — have for months promoted a conspiracy theory that an Arizona man named Ray Epps was a federal informant who helped to instigate the attack on the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.
The claims, made in congressional hearing rooms, on Fox News and at Mr. Trump’s political rallies, have largely been based on a video taken just before violence erupted at the Capitol, showing Mr. Epps at the barricades outside the building whispering into the ear of a man named Ryan Samsel.
Within moments of the brief exchange, Mr. Samsel, a Pennsylvania barber, can be seen moving forward and confronting the police in what amounted to the tipping point of the riot. Despite lacking proof for their claims, many Republicans have surmised that Mr. Epps instructed Mr. Samsel to antagonize the officers. They have also pushed the notion that because Mr. Epps has not been arrested, he must have been working for the government.
But for more than a year, well before the name Ray Epps was widely known in right-wing circles, federal authorities have had information — from both him and Mr. Samsel — suggesting that he was not a government agent and did not encourage the younger man to engage with the police that day.
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Just two days after the attack, when Mr. Epps saw himself on a list of suspects from Jan. 6, he called an F.B.I. tip line and told investigators that he had tried to calm Mr. Samsel down when they spoke, according to three people who have heard a recording of the call. Mr. Epps went on to say that he explained to Mr. Samsel that the police outside the building were merely doing their jobs, the people said.
Then in late January of last year, in an interview with the F.B.I., Mr. Samsel said much the same thing, telling investigators that a man he did not know came up to him at the barricades and suggested he relax, according to a recording of the interview obtained by The New York Times.
“He came up to me and he said, ‘Dude’ — his entire words were, ‘Relax, the cops are doing their job,’” Mr. Samsel said.
The theories surrounding Mr. Epps have been debunked before, most notably after he spoke last year to investigators working with the House select committee examining the Jan. 6 attack. During the interview, committee officials said, Mr. Epps said that he was not an F.B.I. informant and denied reports that he had urged protesters to go into the Capitol at the behest of federal law enforcement agencies.
The recording of Mr. Samsel appears to be a brief clip of a longer interview with the F.B.I. that took place in late January 2021 after he was arrested and charged with assaulting a police officer at the Capitol.
In the same interview, Mr. Samsel told the F.B.I. that another person in the crowd outside the Capitol, Joseph Biggs, a leader of the far-right group the Proud Boys, also pulled him aside that day and spoke to him just before he confronted the officers.
While Mr. Biggs has denied the account, Mr. Samsel told investigators that Mr. Biggs encouraged him to push at the barricades and that when he hesitated, the Proud Boys leader flashed a gun, questioned his manhood and repeated his request.
