Author Topic: capitol riot  (Read 132898 times)

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1900 on: January 07, 2022, 11:29:44 AM »
Anyone that thinks January 6 was some sort of “crisis for democracy” assumes our country’s politics were somehow not already in shambles.

And Mitt Romney and Chris Coons having to cower while an 80 IQ football coach tries to strategize with Trump is funny, you can’t make me be sad or mad about it sorry.

i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on if democracy still has any value if it can't be used to force people to pay for your kids.

Does democracy have value when the people within it don't have equal opportunity to participate in it, nor have equal representation in said democracy?
I think the answer has to be yes. Starting with 100% true representative democracy and maintaining that for hundreds of years is some real fan fiction crap.

Our system has always allowed for incremental changes to push the scales off balance one way or the other.

This seems to me like you're saying that after 245 years of this democracy the fact that we still need a voting rights act is just the cost of doing business. Please tell me I'm reading this wrong and help me see what you see.

When I read something like this
Quote
A 2019 report published by the Electoral Integrity Project, an independent project based out of Harvard University, found that U.S. elections from July 2012 through December 2018 rated "lower than any other long-established democracies and affluent societies." Each country in the index was given a score out of 100 based on assessments of the quality of each of its elections – including categories such as electoral laws, voter registration and voting process – one month after polls closed.

The U.S. score of 61 – the same score as Mexico and Panama – is the second-lowest among liberal democracies and much lower than other countries in the Americas region, including Costa Rica, Uruguay and Chile. Denmark, Finland and Norway are among the top-ranked countries in the index, all with scores in the 80s.
I really struggle with the concept of incremental change to equal access to the supposed democracy, particularly from a protected class that has literally never had to deal with said incremental change.
You did misread what I was saying because I simply answered your question of whether a democracy has value if it’s still deeply flawed. I’m not even saying we’re steadily going in the right direction, just that the system itself has immense value over pretty much any other alternative.

If I had to guess, I’d say most of the issues highlighted in that study stem from long-standing racially motivated policies that undeniably still exist in the US (I’d argue more than a lot of other developed nations). I’d love to hear what system of government you think is better suited to address that.

Glad to see that I misread that and thank you for clarifying your stance for me.

I do think democracy is the best system to address inequality, the problem is that what we call a democracy here in America is a bastardized version of that in all other places worldwide that have an actual democracy. States rights have now and always have been mechanisms for oppression. Throw in the fact that our elections are up for sale, federal for sure but now trickling all the way down to small town school board elections. The will of the people can easily be usurped by cash and gerrymandering. We have a system to elect our president that was rooted in slavery and one that places geographical weight on the votes cast, and we still use that method. The American political system is unique, I would say it's democracy adjacent.

Offline chum1

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1901 on: January 07, 2022, 12:31:24 PM »
And that's not a dems/pubs critcism

When I read what you wrote, it brings to mind an FDR view vs. a Regan view. Both were a result of having a democratic system. Each had differing political systems applied at different times.

What needs to be changed? Having a democratic system? Or a particular political system? I think it's the latter. At bottom, the riot was about the former.

Online BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1902 on: January 07, 2022, 01:17:53 PM »
And that's not a dems/pubs critcism

When I read what you wrote, it brings to mind an FDR view vs. a Regan view. Both were a result of having a democratic system. Each had differing political systems applied at different times.

What needs to be changed? Having a democratic system? Or a particular political system? I think it's the latter. At bottom, the riot was about the former.
to answer the bolded part...i guess the answer to that is also what is so frustrating...what needs to change is a bunch of rules/policies would have to be undone but they were put there by people who want to make sure things stay the way they are, so ultimately its a moot point b/c its so unrealistic. But for the sake of argument, a good start would be things like lobbies. To make a very specific example, i'll mention the gun lobby. I find it interesting that the vast majority of pro-gun folks have no objections whatsoever to the restrictions proposed by the stricter gun control folks, so you have like 90+% of the people in agreement on a path foward, but it goes nowhere because a powerful gun lobby is making sure that it goes nowhere.

That's just one example, but i'd say a very glaring example of the overwhelming will of the people is not being represented because of a small select few that it would work counter to their interest. A democratic system in theory is completely fine, but once it becomes for sale it is no longer democratic. I think it would be great if elected senators/congresspersons were required to vote based on the will of their constituents, but when you have to spend the vast majority of your time fundraising (speaking specifically of congresspersons) instead of lawmaking you will undoubedly be obliged to the will of your biggest donor(s).

I guess another example would be whatever form of late-stage capitalism we seem to have here. Everyone is so afraid that we're going to turn into a communist nation anytime something threatens capitalism but like...is that what we have? I'm no economic philosopher but I thought one of the mainstays of capitalism was that the free market would drive competition, which would benefit the consumer either through lower prices or innovation to create a superior product. Do we have that? Does insulin need to cost $1000? And if so, why are people able to get it for $10 in Canada? If all the companies agree to stifle innovation or competition (which they do) then the consumer is effed. Its the reason there is virtually no way that you can get the TV channels you want for less than you were paying before all the streaming services started. True capitalism would mean one of these cable companies would offer what the people really want...an actual choice of channels at a fair price, but as long as they all agree not to then they can just keep finding new ways to make sure the consumer is paying just as much, if not more, than they were before to get the same goods and services. If amazon offers a product but then another company comes along that offers the same product at a lower cost or a better version of that product, amazon can just lower their prices and take a (very small) hit for a while in order to run the other guy out of business and then acquire that company when they have no position but to sell, and once they do the price will go back up to what it was.

But how do you take on amazon? you cant. there is too much already in place to ensure that amazon will win and there is nothing anybody can do about it.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1903 on: January 07, 2022, 03:11:44 PM »
Anyone that thinks January 6 was some sort of “crisis for democracy” assumes our country’s politics were somehow not already in shambles.

And Mitt Romney and Chris Coons having to cower while an 80 IQ football coach tries to strategize with Trump is funny, you can’t make me be sad or mad about it sorry.

i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on if democracy still has any value if it can't be used to force people to pay for your kids.

Does democracy have value when the people within it don't have equal opportunity to participate in it, nor have equal representation in said democracy?
I think the answer has to be yes. Starting with 100% true representative democracy and maintaining that for hundreds of years is some real fan fiction crap.

Our system has always allowed for incremental changes to push the scales off balance one way or the other.

This seems to me like you're saying that after 245 years of this democracy the fact that we still need a voting rights act is just the cost of doing business. Please tell me I'm reading this wrong and help me see what you see.

When I read something like this
Quote
A 2019 report published by the Electoral Integrity Project, an independent project based out of Harvard University, found that U.S. elections from July 2012 through December 2018 rated "lower than any other long-established democracies and affluent societies." Each country in the index was given a score out of 100 based on assessments of the quality of each of its elections – including categories such as electoral laws, voter registration and voting process – one month after polls closed.

The U.S. score of 61 – the same score as Mexico and Panama – is the second-lowest among liberal democracies and much lower than other countries in the Americas region, including Costa Rica, Uruguay and Chile. Denmark, Finland and Norway are among the top-ranked countries in the index, all with scores in the 80s.
I really struggle with the concept of incremental change to equal access to the supposed democracy, particularly from a protected class that has literally never had to deal with said incremental change.
You did misread what I was saying because I simply answered your question of whether a democracy has value if it’s still deeply flawed. I’m not even saying we’re steadily going in the right direction, just that the system itself has immense value over pretty much any other alternative.

If I had to guess, I’d say most of the issues highlighted in that study stem from long-standing racially motivated policies that undeniably still exist in the US (I’d argue more than a lot of other developed nations). I’d love to hear what system of government you think is better suited to address that.

Glad to see that I misread that and thank you for clarifying your stance for me.

I do think democracy is the best system to address inequality, the problem is that what we call a democracy here in America is a bastardized version of that in all other places worldwide that have an actual democracy. States rights have now and always have been mechanisms for oppression. Throw in the fact that our elections are up for sale, federal for sure but now trickling all the way down to small town school board elections. The will of the people can easily be usurped by cash and gerrymandering. We have a system to elect our president that was rooted in slavery and one that places geographical weight on the votes cast, and we still use that method. The American political system is unique, I would say it's democracy adjacent.
I agree with a lot of this, and I sincerely wish SCOTUS showed more of a scrotum when it came to gerrymandering. It’s unfortunate but I do think we rely heavily on the court system to keep things from going off the rails.

Offline sys

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1904 on: January 07, 2022, 08:36:42 PM »
Not a 3rd party recruiting firm.

my mistake.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1905 on: January 07, 2022, 09:06:37 PM »
Not a 3rd party recruiting firm.

my mistake.
No worries. I think most ppl think recruiters are 3rd parties trying to work off of commission. I drink the koolaide for the company I work for. They’ve treated me very well & I care about their bottom line. That’s all.

Offline steve dave

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1906 on: January 08, 2022, 12:30:56 PM »

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1907 on: January 13, 2022, 01:32:17 PM »

Offline Institutional Control

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1908 on: January 13, 2022, 01:35:25 PM »
Mods, can we change the title of this thread from capitol riots to captial unguided tours?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 01:38:56 PM by Institutional Control »

Offline LickNeckey

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1909 on: January 13, 2022, 01:38:39 PM »
 :bwpopcorn:

Offline Katpappy

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1910 on: January 13, 2022, 01:51:35 PM »
Mods, can we change the title of this thread from capitol riots to captial unguided tours?

 :lol:
Hot time in Kat town tonight.

Offline Institutional Control

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1911 on: January 13, 2022, 04:39:48 PM »
Nearly 12 months in and not a soul charged with insurrection or sedition.


welp
https://www.businessinsider.com/oath-keepers-leader-arrested-in-january-6-capitol-riot-investigation-2022-1
I feel like Dax may have overlooked this post.


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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1912 on: January 13, 2022, 04:44:24 PM »
Man, it's good to see Garland's crack storm troopers hunted down that band of hardcore terrorists.


Offline Spracne

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1913 on: January 13, 2022, 04:48:18 PM »
This is a pretty big deal. You don't see sedition charges very often. Hard to prove, and fraught with First Amendment difficulties. They must have felt they've established a good case.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1914 on: January 13, 2022, 04:48:36 PM »
I'm just happy to know that those guys, ingenious master minds one and all are off the streets and our Democracy . . . fighting, scratching, crawling its way from the abyss of inevitable destruction, will survive that which was worse than 9/11, worse than Pearl Harbor . . .worse than the Civil War. 


Offline Phil Titola

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1915 on: January 13, 2022, 05:40:15 PM »
This is a pretty big deal. You don't see sedition charges very often. Hard to prove, and fraught with First Amendment difficulties. They must have felt they've established a good case.

I'm sorry I know you are like a professional law man but it can't be a big deal.  It's not even mentioned on a major news website: https://www.foxnews.com/

Now a soap star being fired for not getting vaccinated is.  THAT my friend is a big deal.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1916 on: January 13, 2022, 05:51:22 PM »
This is a pretty big deal. You don't see sedition charges very often. Hard to prove, and fraught with First Amendment difficulties. They must have felt they've established a good case.

If they are found guilty, what happens to them? Hopefully it's some weird punishment from the revolutionary era, like getting blown out of a cannon.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1917 on: January 13, 2022, 05:55:04 PM »
I can't imagine the onslaught these guys were planning next to go up against our multi-trillion dollar defense-domestic law enforcement-intelligence complex.


Offline Spracne

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1918 on: January 13, 2022, 05:55:13 PM »
This is a pretty big deal. You don't see sedition charges very often. Hard to prove, and fraught with First Amendment difficulties. They must have felt they've established a good case.

If they are found guilty, what happens to them? Hopefully it's some weird punishment from the revolutionary era, like getting blown out of a cannon.

20 years.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1919 on: January 13, 2022, 05:57:22 PM »
This is a pretty big deal. You don't see sedition charges very often. Hard to prove, and fraught with First Amendment difficulties. They must have felt they've established a good case.

If they are found guilty, what happens to them? Hopefully it's some weird punishment from the revolutionary era, like getting blown out of a cannon.

20 years.

Getting blown out of a cannon every day for 20 years seems a little excessive to me.

Offline Brock Landers

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1920 on: January 13, 2022, 07:41:47 PM »
MAGAs yesterday:  the fact that nobody has been charged with anything proves it wasn't an insurrection.

MAGAs today:  these bogus charges are just a distraction from other stuff like inflation.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1921 on: January 13, 2022, 07:56:37 PM »
Arrest Somebody!   Ron Klain to Herr Garland just before slamming down the phone

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1922 on: January 13, 2022, 08:14:12 PM »
A few suggestions for a defense team.  This team of laser sharp terrorists were moments away from toppling our democracy and they need a laser sharp defense.   

1/6 worse than 9/11

https://www.michaelrataj.com

https://www.sworlaw.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/todd-shanker-5a91904

A good core team with experience in these matters.

Offline Spracne

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1923 on: January 13, 2022, 08:21:37 PM »
Sounds like a job for Albert Watkins, to me.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: capitol riot
« Reply #1924 on: January 13, 2022, 09:13:44 PM »
He'll be next, gotta get some pelts up their to keep the #blueanon Gestapo and their supporters (millions strong) happy.