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I think everyone is assuming oscar is gone/should be gone and putting his time here in perspective.Is there anyone out there (not on Wildcat Salute) claiming oscar deserves more time?
Quote from: Shooter Jones on February 02, 2021, 11:14:58 PMQuote from: nicname on February 01, 2021, 05:08:01 PMWhen it’s all said and done, oscar will go down as a below average KSU b-ball coach.Quote from: nicname on February 02, 2021, 12:24:49 PMSince WWII......Quote from: nicname on February 02, 2021, 12:28:58 PMSince WWII......Genuinely curious why you chose WWII as the start date for your "below average" argument?I shouldn’t have said all time. It’s a harder argument to make, but still a case. There is a lack of measurables the further back you go. I started using Post-WWII because that’s when KSU basketball began to set its standard, and I was trying to show that oscar wasn’t up to snuff. Here is some all-time. oscar is 12th of 20 all time in conference winning percentage. He’s 6th out of 20 all time in conference title percentage. He’s 12th out of 20 all time in *adjusted avg conference finish.*there were 4 coaches who were very bad, but played in a 6 team big 12. I’ve adjusted for this and placed them below oscar. Unadjusted oscar is 16th of 20 in average conference finish. All Time NCAA Tournament Achievement Rating:1. Gardner 4.82. Winter 3.733. Kruger 34. Martin 2.85. Hartman 2.6256. Fitzsimmons 27. Webber 1.338. Altman .259. Asbury .1714-T (5 coaches) .0
Quote from: nicname on February 01, 2021, 05:08:01 PMWhen it’s all said and done, oscar will go down as a below average KSU b-ball coach.Quote from: nicname on February 02, 2021, 12:24:49 PMSince WWII......Quote from: nicname on February 02, 2021, 12:28:58 PMSince WWII......Genuinely curious why you chose WWII as the start date for your "below average" argument?
When it’s all said and done, oscar will go down as a below average KSU b-ball coach.
Since WWII......
Quote from: Shooter Jones on February 03, 2021, 10:06:29 AMIs there anyone out there (not on Wildcat Salute) claiming oscar deserves more time?I'd keep him over someone who finishes in the middle of the pack every year.
Is there anyone out there (not on Wildcat Salute) claiming oscar deserves more time?
Quote from: nicname on February 03, 2021, 02:19:58 AMQuote from: Shooter Jones on February 02, 2021, 11:14:58 PMQuote from: nicname on February 01, 2021, 05:08:01 PMWhen it’s all said and done, oscar will go down as a below average KSU b-ball coach.Quote from: nicname on February 02, 2021, 12:24:49 PMSince WWII......Quote from: nicname on February 02, 2021, 12:28:58 PMSince WWII......Genuinely curious why you chose WWII as the start date for your "below average" argument?I shouldn’t have said all time. It’s a harder argument to make, but still a case. There is a lack of measurables the further back you go. I started using Post-WWII because that’s when KSU basketball began to set its standard, and I was trying to show that oscar wasn’t up to snuff. Here is some all-time. oscar is 12th of 20 all time in conference winning percentage. He’s 6th out of 20 all time in conference title percentage. He’s 12th out of 20 all time in *adjusted avg conference finish.*there were 4 coaches who were very bad, but played in a 6 team big 12. I’ve adjusted for this and placed them below oscar. Unadjusted oscar is 16th of 20 in average conference finish. All Time NCAA Tournament Achievement Rating:1. Gardner 4.82. Winter 3.733. Kruger 34. Martin 2.85. Hartman 2.6256. Fitzsimmons 27. Webber 1.338. Altman .259. Asbury .1714-T (5 coaches) .0I'm not going to question your numbers here, but goodness you went really niche with these stats to find some metrics that show oscar as below average. I have a media guide, a subscription to kenpom, and look at college basketball and/or football reference or Warren Nolan damn near every day and I've never heard of any of those stats.
Quote from: chum1 on February 03, 2021, 10:28:59 AMQuote from: Shooter Jones on February 03, 2021, 10:06:29 AMIs there anyone out there (not on Wildcat Salute) claiming oscar deserves more time?I'd keep him over someone who finishes in the middle of the pack every year. Is there much chance we'd hire someone who'd be better than that?I think there's a chance. I mean we could 100% flub the next hire (and I am assuming oscar is here for a while), but that still doesn't mean that its impossible to hire a coach who does better than finish in the middle of the pack every year.BUT I think I get your point. Over simplifying, but let's say we can broadly but coaches into 4 groups.1. SLTH --- consistently finishes middle of the pack, never wins anything of value, but doesn't have disastrous seasons either2. The "Puncher" --- if things line up just right they can win the conference and make a deep run in the tournament, but they can also get knocked the eff out and have teams that completely suck. It's hard to tell when a Puncher will never get back up again.3. The "Winner" --- just consistently wins things of value, very rare to find 4. The "Loser" --- just consistently loses, always below .500 in conference and never sniffs the big dancePersonally, I really don't like 1 --- IMHO its a special kind of hell for a fan. Of course no one likes 4, and everyone wants 3. I *thought* oscar would be a 1 for us at KSU, but I was obviously wrong. He's a 2, and I am honest I preferred greatly to have a 2 at KSU over a 1, I always want to believe there is a chance for something great. The question for me is, can oscar get off the mat again? I don't know, but if he can then obviously he gives KSU a better chance to win than some derp from the 1 pool.
Quote from: Shooter Jones on February 03, 2021, 10:06:29 AMIs there anyone out there (not on Wildcat Salute) claiming oscar deserves more time?I'd keep him over someone who finishes in the middle of the pack every year. Is there much chance we'd hire someone who'd be better than that?
Quote from: MakeItRain on February 03, 2021, 06:54:59 PMQuote from: nicname on February 03, 2021, 02:19:58 AMQuote from: Shooter Jones on February 02, 2021, 11:14:58 PMQuote from: nicname on February 01, 2021, 05:08:01 PMWhen it’s all said and done, oscar will go down as a below average KSU b-ball coach.Quote from: nicname on February 02, 2021, 12:24:49 PMSince WWII......Quote from: nicname on February 02, 2021, 12:28:58 PMSince WWII......Genuinely curious why you chose WWII as the start date for your "below average" argument?I shouldn’t have said all time. It’s a harder argument to make, but still a case. There is a lack of measurables the further back you go. I started using Post-WWII because that’s when KSU basketball began to set its standard, and I was trying to show that oscar wasn’t up to snuff. Here is some all-time. oscar is 12th of 20 all time in conference winning percentage. He’s 6th out of 20 all time in conference title percentage. He’s 12th out of 20 all time in *adjusted avg conference finish.*there were 4 coaches who were very bad, but played in a 6 team big 12. I’ve adjusted for this and placed them below oscar. Unadjusted oscar is 16th of 20 in average conference finish. All Time NCAA Tournament Achievement Rating:1. Gardner 4.82. Winter 3.733. Kruger 34. Martin 2.85. Hartman 2.6256. Fitzsimmons 27. Webber 1.338. Altman .259. Asbury .1714-T (5 coaches) .0I'm not going to question your numbers here, but goodness you went really niche with these stats to find some metrics that show oscar as below average. I have a media guide, a subscription to kenpom, and look at college basketball and/or football reference or Warren Nolan damn near every day and I've never heard of any of those stats. I always know it’s a hit job when it’s spelled Webber, that crap is a dead giveaway.
Quote from: wetwillie on February 03, 2021, 07:03:05 PMQuote from: MakeItRain on February 03, 2021, 06:54:59 PMQuote from: nicname on February 03, 2021, 02:19:58 AMQuote from: Shooter Jones on February 02, 2021, 11:14:58 PMQuote from: nicname on February 01, 2021, 05:08:01 PMWhen it’s all said and done, oscar will go down as a below average KSU b-ball coach.Quote from: nicname on February 02, 2021, 12:24:49 PMSince WWII......Quote from: nicname on February 02, 2021, 12:28:58 PMSince WWII......Genuinely curious why you chose WWII as the start date for your "below average" argument?I shouldn’t have said all time. It’s a harder argument to make, but still a case. There is a lack of measurables the further back you go. I started using Post-WWII because that’s when KSU basketball began to set its standard, and I was trying to show that oscar wasn’t up to snuff. Here is some all-time. oscar is 12th of 20 all time in conference winning percentage. He’s 6th out of 20 all time in conference title percentage. He’s 12th out of 20 all time in *adjusted avg conference finish.*there were 4 coaches who were very bad, but played in a 6 team big 12. I’ve adjusted for this and placed them below oscar. Unadjusted oscar is 16th of 20 in average conference finish. All Time NCAA Tournament Achievement Rating:1. Gardner 4.82. Winter 3.733. Kruger 34. Martin 2.85. Hartman 2.6256. Fitzsimmons 27. Webber 1.338. Altman .259. Asbury .1714-T (5 coaches) .0I'm not going to question your numbers here, but goodness you went really niche with these stats to find some metrics that show oscar as below average. I have a media guide, a subscription to kenpom, and look at college basketball and/or football reference or Warren Nolan damn near every day and I've never heard of any of those stats. I always know it’s a hit job when it’s spelled Webber, that crap is a dead giveaway.I didn't want to call nic on that because he's my guy, but yeah, I thought the same thing.
I’d never stoop that low
Quote from: nicname on February 03, 2021, 08:01:09 PMI’d never stoop that lowEverything considered, no handpicked stats, just your opinion, rank those 11 coaches and their time at K-State 1-11.
Quote from: Shooter Jones on February 03, 2021, 08:08:02 PMQuote from: nicname on February 03, 2021, 08:01:09 PMI’d never stoop that lowEverything considered, no handpicked stats, just your opinion, rank those 11 coaches and their time at K-State 1-11.Everyone else----------------oscar---------------AltmanWooldridgeAsburyOnly oscar made me lose interest.
Just to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here.
What have oscar's grandchildren ever done for us?
Quote from: Shooter Jones on February 03, 2021, 10:42:05 PMJust to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here. Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.
Quote from: MakeItRain on February 03, 2021, 11:10:04 PMQuote from: Shooter Jones on February 03, 2021, 10:42:05 PMJust to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here. Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.Not excusing Jack's final seasons because they are bad, but oscar's last 56 include a conference championship season...
Quote from: Rage Against the McKee on February 04, 2021, 12:38:55 AMQuote from: MakeItRain on February 03, 2021, 11:10:04 PMQuote from: Shooter Jones on February 03, 2021, 10:42:05 PMJust to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here. Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.Not excusing Jack's final seasons because they are bad, but oscar's last 56 include a conference championship season...Jack was able to muster a W here and there amongst losing streaks of 4 and 5 games, with one 6 game L streak and one 7 game L streak in there.
Quote from: Woogy on February 04, 2021, 09:57:26 AMQuote from: Rage Against the McKee on February 04, 2021, 12:38:55 AMQuote from: MakeItRain on February 03, 2021, 11:10:04 PMQuote from: Shooter Jones on February 03, 2021, 10:42:05 PMJust to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here. Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.Not excusing Jack's final seasons because they are bad, but oscar's last 56 include a conference championship season...Jack was able to muster a W here and there amongst losing streaks of 4 and 5 games, with one 6 game L streak and one 7 game L streak in there.One thing to also remember about Hartman is that he had a heart attack just before Big 8 play started in the 84-85 season and the team was coached by Daryl Winston in his absence. I don't remember exactly how many games he missed, but it was at least half the big 8 season, probably not fair to include those games in his last 56. He probably would have gotten run at the end of the 85-86 season by the used car salesman Larry Travis that we had had as AD back then, but Hartman announced his retirement at the beginning of the Big 8 season in 85-86 and he coached out rest of the year. He was able to stay in town and be the King of Manhattan until Snyder emerged as our new hero. Things were bad those last 4 years, but they were nothing like the last 2, not even close. Weber needs to announce his retirement (like Hartman) immediately to allow KSU to move on without firing him and he can stay in town and be a hero.
Quote from: Reggie Singlegur on February 04, 2021, 11:52:04 AMQuote from: Woogy on February 04, 2021, 09:57:26 AMQuote from: Rage Against the McKee on February 04, 2021, 12:38:55 AMQuote from: MakeItRain on February 03, 2021, 11:10:04 PMQuote from: Shooter Jones on February 03, 2021, 10:42:05 PMJust to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here. Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.Not excusing Jack's final seasons because they are bad, but oscar's last 56 include a conference championship season...Jack was able to muster a W here and there amongst losing streaks of 4 and 5 games, with one 6 game L streak and one 7 game L streak in there.One thing to also remember about Hartman is that he had a heart attack just before Big 8 play started in the 84-85 season and the team was coached by Daryl Winston in his absence. I don't remember exactly how many games he missed, but it was at least half the big 8 season, probably not fair to include those games in his last 56. He probably would have gotten run at the end of the 85-86 season by the used car salesman Larry Travis that we had had as AD back then, but Hartman announced his retirement at the beginning of the Big 8 season in 85-86 and he coached out rest of the year. He was able to stay in town and be the King of Manhattan until Snyder emerged as our new hero. Things were bad those last 4 years, but they were nothing like the last 2, not even close. Weber needs to announce his retirement (like Hartman) immediately to allow KSU to move on without firing him and he can stay in town and be a hero.Fans werewantinghimtomoveonbecause everyone was eager to bring in Lon. Travis made a show of a coaching search, but it was a foregone conclusion Lon was coming back toManhattan. He immediately recruited Mitch, Henson, Scott and Bledsoe. I don't think he's had another recruiting year like that in his career and cetainly not at K-State.
Quote from: EMAWzifried on February 04, 2021, 12:14:59 PMQuote from: Reggie Singlegur on February 04, 2021, 11:52:04 AMQuote from: Woogy on February 04, 2021, 09:57:26 AMQuote from: Rage Against the McKee on February 04, 2021, 12:38:55 AMQuote from: MakeItRain on February 03, 2021, 11:10:04 PMQuote from: Shooter Jones on February 03, 2021, 10:42:05 PMJust to follow up, Jack Hartman went 18-38 in his last 56 conference games at K-State. When oscar loses the next 7, he will finish 20-36 in his last 56 conference games.2 K-State greats with poor finishes to their careers here. Dear God, Jack. I had no idea his finish was that horrific.Not excusing Jack's final seasons because they are bad, but oscar's last 56 include a conference championship season...Jack was able to muster a W here and there amongst losing streaks of 4 and 5 games, with one 6 game L streak and one 7 game L streak in there.One thing to also remember about Hartman is that he had a heart attack just before Big 8 play started in the 84-85 season and the team was coached by Daryl Winston in his absence. I don't remember exactly how many games he missed, but it was at least half the big 8 season, probably not fair to include those games in his last 56. He probably would have gotten run at the end of the 85-86 season by the used car salesman Larry Travis that we had had as AD back then, but Hartman announced his retirement at the beginning of the Big 8 season in 85-86 and he coached out rest of the year. He was able to stay in town and be the King of Manhattan until Snyder emerged as our new hero. Things were bad those last 4 years, but they were nothing like the last 2, not even close. Weber needs to announce his retirement (like Hartman) immediately to allow KSU to move on without firing him and he can stay in town and be a hero.Fans werewantinghimtomoveonbecause everyone was eager to bring in Lon. Travis made a show of a coaching search, but it was a foregone conclusion Lon was coming back toManhattan. He immediately recruited Mitch, Henson, Scott and Bledsoe. I don't think he's had another recruiting year like that in his career and cetainly not at K-State.Yea, probably helped Hartman to retire knowing his protégé was going to take over. Too bad we don't have that obvious candidate to take over now. All the more reason that Weber needs to announce now, so the search can begin.