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Offline ArchE_Cat

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #450 on: March 25, 2011, 09:01:55 AM »
So "religious experiences" are a means to test for God, and those "experiences" cannot be trusted because emotions are a chemical function of our brains. Or more simply, human observations about something non-human as interpreted by the human brain.

Science is based on the observation (by humans) of the natural world. These observations are interpreted by the human brain. The interpretations are refined (testing) until they match the observed behavior of the natural world.

So our brains are to be fully trusted in one instance and not at all in another? This is especially interesting in light of things such as the use of Newtonian physics is many applications when Einstein's theories are much more accurate. Seriously, we use to think the earth was flat. But, human brains have yet to cure cancer or explain with absolute certainty how the world came to be. In fact, we believe that we can't even use the full capacity of our own brains. 99.99999999992% is not 100%. Science throughout history has been "close enough" until we figure just how off we really are (for example see Kepler, Newton & Bohr).

Let's face it, people's interpretation of science and religion are governed more by their world view than anything else. People completely accepting of Darwin's generally have an agenda not science related (see world view). And, people that completely reject all of Darwin's observations also have an agenda (again, see world view).

My point to all of this is that we are flawed and our world is flawed. Neither is perfect, and to dismiss belief in God due to science is ignorant; as is dismissing science due to a belief in God.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #451 on: March 25, 2011, 09:19:22 AM »
How do you scientifically prove what happens to your soul when you die?

Offline KSU187

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #452 on: March 25, 2011, 09:28:53 AM »
Very well put ArchE...

Dohminator obviously has some resentment and bitterness towards religion and/or God. I will be praying for you.

Just remember, what is scientifically accepted today will be completely different in 50 years.  We are nowhere near the pinnacle of our understanding of God's Universe.  

I want to address the "cult" issue though because it gets thrown around all the time.

Many times, the only difference between a religion and a cult, is the number of followers.  :thumbsup:

The etymology of the word "cult"

1610s, "worship," also "a particular form of worship," from Fr. culte (17c.), from L. cultus "care, labor; cultivation, culture; worship, reverence," originally "tended, cultivated," pp. of colere "to till" (see colony). Rare after 17c.; revived mid-19c. with reference to ancient or primitive rituals. Meaning "devotion to a person or thing" is from 1829.

I have no problem with "cultish" religion.  It is thrown around as a dismissive platitude though, and for good reason in many cases, as some "cults" are indeed batcac crazy.  But there are also non-religious groups that meet the definition of a cult that are equally as crazy.  Therefore, simply saying "sounds kinda cultish" in no way says anything about said group or religion, other than you disagree with it and are trying to dismiss its claims by using a word with a loaded connotation.

Offline KSU187

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #453 on: March 25, 2011, 09:42:15 AM »
Also, we could not prove DNA until Johann Friedrich Miescher, or Watson and Crick...

Did that mean that DNA never existed until it was scientifically proven?  Following your logic, you would have probably said back then "DNA doesn't exist!! We can't test it! We can't prove it scientifically!!"

Obviously, this says nothing about its existence.

Offline CNS

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #454 on: March 25, 2011, 10:09:50 AM »
Very well put ArchE...

Dohminator obviously has some resentment and bitterness towards religion and/or God. I will be praying for you.

Just remember, what is scientifically accepted today will be completely different in 50 years.  We are nowhere near the pinnacle of our understanding of God's Universe.  

I want to address the "cult" issue though because it gets thrown around all the time.

Many times, the only difference between a religion and a cult, is the number of followers.  :thumbsup:

The etymology of the word "cult"

1610s, "worship," also "a particular form of worship," from Fr. culte (17c.), from L. cultus "care, labor; cultivation, culture; worship, reverence," originally "tended, cultivated," pp. of colere "to till" (see colony). Rare after 17c.; revived mid-19c. with reference to ancient or primitive rituals. Meaning "devotion to a person or thing" is from 1829.

I have no problem with "cultish" religion.  It is thrown around as a dismissive platitude though, and for good reason in many cases, as some "cults" are indeed batcac crazy.  But there are also non-religious groups that meet the definition of a cult that are equally as crazy.  Therefore, simply saying "sounds kinda cultish" in no way says anything about said group or religion, other than you disagree with it and are trying to dismiss its claims by using a word with a loaded connotation.


When I was at KSU, there was some cult that met in the park a lot.  Were reported on in the local paper some.  Basically they invited rando people to the park for a bbq, and after hanging with them for a while they assigned an enforcer to a new member.  Enforcer literally beat you down if you strayed.  Paper reported on it because people were getting beaten up. 

Anyway, the cult inducted new followers, scared them into following blindly, then prayed on them by telling them that they needed to give their possessions to the cult and that they are not true followers if they can't give up their loved ones, etc. 

Not trying to lump all cults together with a single definition/connotation, but when it comes to Christianity(at least the most known forms of it to me), it seems pretty much exactly like the cult that was in Manhattan back then.  The only real diffs were the lack of popular acceptance and the use of brute force to apply the fear rather than mind rough ridin' it's members, and it should be noted that brute force is simply a faster way of accomplishing something rather than a mind eff, but ultimately has the same intent and result in many cases.

Should also note again that I do believe in a higher power, but think it is ridiculous that any one person can tell me that the way I choose to acknowledge/worship/celebrate/communicate/etc with such a higher power, and that doing so is nothing more than furthering the above described cult process whether intentionally or unintentionally. 

I find religion fascinating and genuinely like a lot of religious folks as I feel like their intentions are good.  However the whole "spreading the good news" thing is a line that I feel they have no right to cross.

Offline KSU187

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #455 on: March 25, 2011, 10:22:23 AM »
Quote
I do believe in a higher power, but think it is ridiculous that any one person can tell me that the way I choose to acknowledge/worship/celebrate/communicate/etc with such a higher power, and that doing so is nothing more than furthering the above described cult process whether intentionally or unintentionally. 

100 % agree. And it is because of this so-called "cult process" you mentioned that many dismiss God or religion entirely, which is a shame.

Offline Trim

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #456 on: March 25, 2011, 10:28:26 AM »
Barely skimmed the last month's worth of this.  Anybody figured out who's right yet?

Offline Fedor

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #457 on: March 25, 2011, 11:56:57 AM »
Barely skimmed the last month's worth of this.  Anybody figured out who's right yet?

In a stunning upset the Mulsims came out on top.  Who knew, right!  I'm going down to pick out a prayer rug this weekend, pm if you need a ride.
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Offline Trim

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #458 on: March 25, 2011, 12:20:24 PM »
Barely skimmed the last month's worth of this.  Anybody figured out who's right yet?

In a stunning upset the Mulsims came out on top.  Who knew, right!  I'm going down to pick out a prayer rug this weekend, pm if you need a ride.

Can't go with you, but I'll take 2 of whatever kind you pick out, in purple.

Offline the KHAN!

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #459 on: March 25, 2011, 12:34:13 PM »
Barely skimmed the last month's worth of this.  Anybody figured out who's right yet?

In a stunning upset the Mulsims came out on top.  Who knew, right!  I'm going down to pick out a prayer rug this weekend, pm if you need a ride.

No no no. Just because they blew up the judges and declared victory doesn't make it so. Buddha is going to be lodging a formal appeal to the committee when new members replaced those beheaded in the Intifada.
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Offline dohminator

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #460 on: March 25, 2011, 01:22:02 PM »
Very well put ArchE...

Dohminator obviously has some resentment and bitterness towards religion and/or God. I will be praying for you.



I would say that I am very not resentful or bitter toward religion or god, and most atheists aren't.  To give you a better understanding of where I am coming from I'll give you guys a little bit of my history.  I was born and raised Catholic.  During my youth I spent probably more time than any kid usually would thinking about religion and I would spend times where I prayed a lot and was very strong in my faith to other times when I was much less strong, but still a believer throughout.  In my senior year of high school, I went through a period of questioning about my beliefs and recognized that there is no way to know for sure whether my religion was the correct one.  I acknowledged a level of agnosticism, just knowing that I couldn't be sure on anything, which led me to explore and learn about a wide variety of the religions that exist in this world and also to learn more about Catholic beliefs.  Once this period was over, I become much stronger in my Catholic faith, and to be honest, there are many beautiful things about the Catholic church and about the ritual of mass.  When I went to college I went to church weekly, and was very invested in my faith.  During my sophomore year, I was going to mass during the week several times a week.  To me, I definitely did get a lot out of it at the time, and I spent time considering whether I wanted to be a priest or even a monk.  However, I came to start having greater and greater doubts as some of the things that I learned about the world, how our brains work, how our psychology works began to really plant serious doubts in my head about the existence of God.  Many of those doubts being the ones that I have shared and will share.  As those doubts increased, I found it harder and harder to believe and even though I really wanted to, I just couldn't bring myself to do it anymore.  I went through a period of mourning the loss of my faith and spending a lot of time at night contemplating the fact that I was going to die some day and that would be it.  However, I have come to terms with this over time, and the more I learn the less reason I see for the existence of a god.  I spent a lot of time considering myself agnostic, until one day I just realized that I was pretty much an atheist and went through the day without any belief that there was a god out there watching everything I did.    

In the end, I don't hold any ill will to the Catholic church, and would probably still be a Catholic if I actually believed in God.  But having a belief in God is a pretty central tenet to hold in order to be a Catholic.  

I am very passionate, and probably the reason that I am posting so much in this thread is that I rarely get into these discussions in real life because a lot of people would have a hard time having this discussion in a positive way.  Most of the time if people ask, I'll just state that I'm an atheist and they'll make some comment like "there are no atheists in foxholes" and I'll just nod my head and move on with my life.  

And for a weird question, has anybody else in this thread really sat down and thought about what eternity really means and been very weirded out by it?   Or is that just me?

Edit:  To add the the discussion there are good things about religion and there are bad things.  Studies show that religious people that attend services have a higher sense of well-being, which comes from the communal aspect of attending church.  Also religious people tend to volunteer more and donate more.  These are very good things.  However, religion does have it's dark side.  It can convince people that they have the only hold to the truth which makes them self-righteous.  It can cause people to want to enforce their views on everyone else and to enact laws restricting the freedoms of others when those views do not match up with their own.  And it can cause people to justify their killing of other people in God's name. It can stop people from exploring the world around them and encourage ignorance about our world and other people. All pretty crappy.  Religion is definitely a mixed bag.  
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 01:28:21 PM by dohminator »

Offline dohminator

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #461 on: March 25, 2011, 01:38:16 PM »
Science!?

Please tell me why I love?!


http://www.youramazingbrain.org.uk/lovesex/sciencelove.htm

Here is a short article that overviews some of the changes that occur in our body and brain that produce the feeling of romantic love. 

There is no reason that the development of love requires a god.  Love has to do with our kinship bonds.  Those individuals and groups that experienced greater bonding with one another were better able to survive and pass along their genes.  But yes, the qualitative experience of love is complex and different and involves discussions of cognition and philosophy that I just honestly haven't investigated fully enough to give a detailed response to the question.  But if you are a curious person, I would encourage you to do some research.  Read about the psychology of love and philosophical discussions of love.  Report back some of what you learned. 

Offline dohminator

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #462 on: March 25, 2011, 01:50:16 PM »
So "religious experiences" are a means to test for God, and those "experiences" cannot be trusted because emotions are a chemical function of our brains. Or more simply, human observations about something non-human as interpreted by the human brain.
  No, religious experiences are not a means for testing for God because they can't be independently verified.  We all have lots of feelings about things that can be very untrue.  If someone you know doesn't acknowledge you as they pass by, you might have the feeling that they hate you or that they are an bad person.  This doesn't make it true, because you don't know if that person just found out that they have cancer and are walking shell shocked back to their car to drive home and tell their family.  Until you can verify it, your feeling is just a feeling.  I know that we can't always verify things like that and it would be huge burden to do so.  That's why our brains use all kinds of shortcuts that get us into trouble from time to time and lead to irrational thinking and behavior. 

Quote
Science is based on the observation (by humans) of the natural world. These observations are interpreted by the human brain. The interpretations are refined (testing) until they match the observed behavior of the natural world.

So our brains are to be fully trusted in one instance and not at all in another? This is especially interesting in light of things such as the use of Newtonian physics is many applications when Einstein's theories are much more accurate. Seriously, we use to think the earth was flat. But, human brains have yet to cure cancer or explain with absolute certainty how the world came to be. In fact, we believe that we can't even use the full capacity of our own brains. 99.99999999992% is not 100%. Science throughout history has been "close enough" until we figure just how off we really are (for example see Kepler, Newton & Bohr).
  It would be impossible for the brain to function at "100%"  The brain is finely tuned and delicate.  And the ability to turn parts of the brain off is every bit as important as being able to fire them off.  Culling unused connections in our brain is important to maintaining function.  Schizophrenia may actually be caused by our brain holding on to too many connections in the brain and not pruning enough to make it function correctly.  Also, science will never be finished, that's a feature, not a flaw. 

Quote
Let's face it, people's interpretation of science and religion are governed more by their world view than anything else. People completely accepting of Darwin's generally have an agenda not science related (see world view). And, people that completely reject all of Darwin's observations also have an agenda (again, see world view).

My point to all of this is that we are flawed and our world is flawed. Neither is perfect, and to dismiss belief in God due to science is ignorant; as is dismissing science due to a belief in God.

Thank you for the south park conclusion Stan

Offline dohminator

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #463 on: March 25, 2011, 02:10:27 PM »
How do you scientifically prove what happens to your soul when you die?

You can't.  That's the problem with believing in one or the afterlife.  There is no possible way to know if we have a soul or not.  There is no way to test for it, and even if someone tried to do a test, when they found a negative result they would just back away from it and give an excuse.  There is no way to prove that we do not have a soul.  Which means that we can never prove that there is one either.

Science requires that hypothesis be able to be proven wrong, it's what allows us to get a yes or no answer to questions and to learn more about the world.  When something is proven wrong, people go back to the drawing board and see if they can find a better explanation, which leads to more knowledge. 

This question always kinda messed with my mind when I was in undergrad, and I'm curious to see what answers the more religious people here have to it because I never was able to come to a satisfying conclusion.  We know that changes in our brain affect changes in our thinking.  Consciousness is very tied to our brain.  When someone experiences a brain injury it can affect not only their ability to carry out basic functions, but also their personality and beliefs about the world. 

So let's take a hypothetical situation, that has occurred at least a few times.  There is a terrible person.  A mean, uncaring, and disbelieving.  He has an accident that causes him to forget who he is and his entire past.  In this process he also has a change in his personality where he becomes much kinder and gentler, no longer an evil son of a bitch.  Someone preaches to him, and he is "saved".   In effect this person is now to seperate people.  There is no knowledge of the person before who was mean and would beat up this newer kinder person.  At the same time that old person has never paid for any of his sins.  What happens when he goes to heaven?  Is he reunited with his old self, which personality wins, does he get to go to heaven just because of that brain injury?  Did his soul change? 

What about the opposite situation.  A very nice lady has an industrial accident that disables her ability to control her impulses.  She now has sex like a fiend, is mean and roudy and hates on people.  She does goes away from religion because everyone shuns her for her wild behavior.  Is she condemned to hell because of the accident or does the nice person that was her before get to go on to heaven? 

What about schizophrenics who are not in control of their own mind.  Are they held responsible even though it is their mind that may have led them to not live a Christian life?  What about people with multiple personalities.  Does god judge them all differently? 

What about the karsakoff's syndrome people that have lost their ability to remember anything and the ability to even form new memories?

Obviously the consciousness does not reside in the soul or brain injury would never be able to cause people to change in such drastic ways except for lessened bodily function.  I just was never able to quite figure out the weird cases where people change. 

Offline KSU187

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #464 on: March 25, 2011, 02:17:53 PM »
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God is an bad person.  What kind of effing bad person.. etc.

Sounds a little resentful to me, but I get a better sense of where you are coming from and you seem pretty level headed.  It was just my initial impression.  Sounds like you became frustrated.  At first, this is very common.  

In an academic setting, which I am very familiar with, students who begin in Religious Studies have their faiths shaken pretty regularly as they become exposed to the overwhelming amount of belief systems and worldviews contrary to their own.  

To them, reconciling their sometimes narrow viewpoint on Truth is like trying to take a drink of water from a fire hydrant. Too much comes at them.  Too many questions they can't answer.  Too many doubts.  They get overwhelmed as concepts they have received through their theological and religious socialization come crashing down to the reality of the Big World we live in.  Sometimes this leads to an emphatic insistence on atheism, as they feel betrayed in a sense or feel like they have had the wool pulled over their eyes by the religion they grew up with. Almost as if, "I can't believe in anything anymore because I came to find out that my childhood religion just can't be true..." This is a quite common occurrence.

I will still be praying for you though dohminator.  We all have different paths, and different pre and post-natal karma to work out.  May God guide you in whatever system of faith or no faith you choose in this life.

As far as religion being a product of brain chemistry etc.  This says more about the person, than it says about the existence of God. Here is christian apologist Gregory Koukl speaking on the topic.



Listen to all five minutes, cause it takes him a bit to "get there."

Anyways, you described yourself as "passionate."  The source of you passion is coming from somewhere.  Seek the Source.  Maybe it is just the cold, robotic, physiological mechanisms of your brain chemistry afterall.  Or an ability to reason and scientifically negotiate reality. But maybe its not...

Finally, a way complicated answer made simple: Eternity is not of our space-time domain. Eternity is not linear, it is timeless, spaceless, and permeated with Bliss.  Although you might dismiss it or deny it, You can probably hear Eternity whispering to you at times. Still your mind, open your heart, and Listen.

Have a good weekend, and may God Bless everyone who has posted on this thread.



Offline ArchE_Cat

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #465 on: March 25, 2011, 02:21:37 PM »
You missed the point. Lots of people can independently arrive at the same conclusion regarding religion, having had exactly the same or an extremely similar experiences. Lots of people can have the same or extremely similar observations of the natural world and independently arrive at the same scientific conclusion. The common denominators here are the humans (brain) and the environment in which the observe/experience things. You can't say the brain is more reliable in one instance than it is another.

If science never ends, then it is safe to assume that science is approaching a mathematical limit of sorts. Science can continually perfection but never really reach it. The same exists with faith, you get closer and closer but never fully comprehend. This doesn't mean that the perfect equation doesn't exist, or that God doesn't exist. It means that we are limited in our ability to fully perceive either, because we and the word around us are inherently flawed, until an independent source outside of humanity or the world we see is able to verify it.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #466 on: March 25, 2011, 02:42:58 PM »
How do you scientifically prove what happens to your soul when you die?

You can't.  That's the problem with believing in one or the afterlife.  There is no possible way to know if we have a soul or not.  There is no way to test for it, and even if someone tried to do a test, when they found a negative result they would just back away from it and give an excuse.  There is no way to prove that we do not have a soul.  Which means that we can never prove that there is one either.

Science requires that hypothesis be able to be proven wrong, it's what allows us to get a yes or no answer to questions and to learn more about the world.  When something is proven wrong, people go back to the drawing board and see if they can find a better explanation, which leads to more knowledge. 

This question always kinda messed with my mind when I was in undergrad, and I'm curious to see what answers the more religious people here have to it because I never was able to come to a satisfying conclusion.  We know that changes in our brain affect changes in our thinking.  Consciousness is very tied to our brain.  When someone experiences a brain injury it can affect not only their ability to carry out basic functions, but also their personality and beliefs about the world. 

So let's take a hypothetical situation, that has occurred at least a few times.  There is a terrible person.  A mean, uncaring, and disbelieving.  He has an accident that causes him to forget who he is and his entire past.  In this process he also has a change in his personality where he becomes much kinder and gentler, no longer an evil son of a bitch.  Someone preaches to him, and he is "saved".   In effect this person is now to seperate people.  There is no knowledge of the person before who was mean and would beat up this newer kinder person.  At the same time that old person has never paid for any of his sins.  What happens when he goes to heaven?  Is he reunited with his old self, which personality wins, does he get to go to heaven just because of that brain injury?  Did his soul change? 

What about the opposite situation.  A very nice lady has an industrial accident that disables her ability to control her impulses.  She now has sex like a fiend, is mean and roudy and hates on people.  She does goes away from religion because everyone shuns her for her wild behavior.  Is she condemned to hell because of the accident or does the nice person that was her before get to go on to heaven? 

What about schizophrenics who are not in control of their own mind.  Are they held responsible even though it is their mind that may have led them to not live a Christian life?  What about people with multiple personalities.  Does god judge them all differently? 

What about the karsakoff's syndrome people that have lost their ability to remember anything and the ability to even form new memories?

Obviously the consciousness does not reside in the soul or brain injury would never be able to cause people to change in such drastic ways except for lessened bodily function.  I just was never able to quite figure out the weird cases where people change. 

Anybody who claims to have an answer to those questions is fooling you, themselves, or both. There really is no way that any human could tell you if somebody is going to heaven or hell. I wouldn't even claim to know where Hitler is.

Offline KSU187

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #467 on: March 25, 2011, 03:01:39 PM »
Quote
This question always kinda messed with my mind when I was in undergrad, and I'm curious to see what answers the more religious people here have to it because I never was able to come to a satisfying conclusion.  We know that changes in our brain affect changes in our thinking.  Consciousness is very tied to our brain.  When someone experiences a brain injury it can affect not only their ability to carry out basic functions, but also their personality and beliefs about the world. 

The answer to your question is: consciousness reflecting pre and post natal karma.  And in the scenarios you mentioned of life changing "accidents,"  they are usually tied to previous incarnations as opposed to karma in this life.

Offline CNS

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #468 on: March 25, 2011, 03:35:02 PM »
Quote
This question always kinda messed with my mind when I was in undergrad, and I'm curious to see what answers the more religious people here have to it because I never was able to come to a satisfying conclusion.  We know that changes in our brain affect changes in our thinking.  Consciousness is very tied to our brain.  When someone experiences a brain injury it can affect not only their ability to carry out basic functions, but also their personality and beliefs about the world. 

The answer to your question is: consciousness reflecting pre and post natal karma.  And in the scenarios you mentioned of life changing "accidents,"  they are usually tied to previous incarnations as opposed to karma in this life.

I would like to take a quick time out to say that I enjoy this thread because it includes a religion's p.o.v. other than Christianity.

Fascinating.  Tell me more.

Being serious.

Offline 1/64th

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #469 on: March 25, 2011, 03:44:04 PM »
Hey doh, you could have stopped at "I was raised Catholic."  Nuff said.  Thanks.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #470 on: March 25, 2011, 05:07:15 PM »
How do you scientifically prove what happens to your soul when you die?

You can't.  That's the problem with believing in one or the afterlife.  There is no possible way to know if we have a soul or not.  There is no way to test for it, and even if someone tried to do a test, when they found a negative result they would just back away from it and give an excuse.  There is no way to prove that we do not have a soul.  Which means that we can never prove that there is one either.

Science requires that hypothesis be able to be proven wrong, it's what allows us to get a yes or no answer to questions and to learn more about the world.  When something is proven wrong, people go back to the drawing board and see if they can find a better explanation, which leads to more knowledge. 

This question always kinda messed with my mind when I was in undergrad, and I'm curious to see what answers the more religious people here have to it because I never was able to come to a satisfying conclusion.  We know that changes in our brain affect changes in our thinking.  Consciousness is very tied to our brain.  When someone experiences a brain injury it can affect not only their ability to carry out basic functions, but also their personality and beliefs about the world. 

So let's take a hypothetical situation, that has occurred at least a few times.  There is a terrible person.  A mean, uncaring, and disbelieving.  He has an accident that causes him to forget who he is and his entire past.  In this process he also has a change in his personality where he becomes much kinder and gentler, no longer an evil son of a bitch.  Someone preaches to him, and he is "saved".   In effect this person is now to seperate people.  There is no knowledge of the person before who was mean and would beat up this newer kinder person.  At the same time that old person has never paid for any of his sins.  What happens when he goes to heaven?  Is he reunited with his old self, which personality wins, does he get to go to heaven just because of that brain injury?  Did his soul change? 

What about the opposite situation.  A very nice lady has an industrial accident that disables her ability to control her impulses.  She now has sex like a fiend, is mean and roudy and hates on people.  She does goes away from religion because everyone shuns her for her wild behavior.  Is she condemned to hell because of the accident or does the nice person that was her before get to go on to heaven? 

What about schizophrenics who are not in control of their own mind.  Are they held responsible even though it is their mind that may have led them to not live a Christian life?  What about people with multiple personalities.  Does god judge them all differently? 

What about the karsakoff's syndrome people that have lost their ability to remember anything and the ability to even form new memories?

Obviously the consciousness does not reside in the soul or brain injury would never be able to cause people to change in such drastic ways except for lessened bodily function.  I just was never able to quite figure out the weird cases where people change. 

OK, very interesting, but I do believe God will know who has control of their thoughts and actions and who does not.

I have personally had 2 experiences that have made me believe in the presence of a soul. My wife's father passed away after a fight with lung cancer. We were in his room at a hospice center where I was holding his dog, a Pomeranian. The dog was very quiet and still and I was standing about 10 feet from the bed. The moment he took his last breath, the dog stood up in my arms and started barking. The dog was barking directly at my father-in-law, then slowly moved his head upward while still barking until he was looking directly at the ceiling, barked for another few seconds, then just stopped and laid back down in my arms. It was obvious to everyone in the room what had just happened. The dog sensed something we couldn't see, and I believe it was his soul leaving.

Offline PoetWarrior

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #471 on: March 25, 2011, 05:12:01 PM »
http://www.youramazingbrain.org.uk/lovesex/sciencelove.htm

Here is a short article that overviews some of the changes that occur in our body and brain that produce the feeling of romantic love. 


Not one piece of that addresses anything that has anything to do with the love I'm talking about.

I'm talking about LOVE, man.

Offline KSU187

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #472 on: March 25, 2011, 05:50:02 PM »
CNS, this is a very complex topic and will be addressed admittedly extremely inadequately, as I am kinda in a hurry, but I will try to paint an overall picture.

First and foremost, We are not bodies that posses souls, we are souls that posses bodies.  This is a very subtle, but important distinction.

Secondly, everything is vibration. Conciousness is a reflection of vibration.  Here is an example of how someone with a reincarnationist perspective might view some of the scenario's mentioned.

Lets look at dohminator's first scenario.  You have someone who is obviously bitter and uncaring but gets changed in an instant because of an accident.  Dohminator points out how he hasn't "paid for any of his sins."  Yet when you look at it from a reincarnationist perspective, maybe he had.  Being mean and uncaring produce thier own negitive vibrations anyway and people who are that way are usually not very happy, and often times miserable.  Maybe that was payment for his sins.  Even still, he will have to face in one way or another the negative energy which he put out in to the universe, whether this is an astral realm that resembles the catholic purgatory, or an earthly incarnation.  Maybe the accident was an intersession of God to jolt him on the right path.  For his Love and Grace are VERY real.  Or maybe the accident was a result of his past karma which had set him up for a spectacular change.  Either way, karmic "jolts" like this and complete changes in conciousness, as I stated are usually set up by past incarnations.  Summer changes from fall to winter, even supernovas take time before they explode.  In God's Universe changes take time and buildup, hence dramatic events like these have been "in the works," so to speak, for a while.

When dohminator says "In effect this person is now to seperate people." He is wrong. Same body, same soul, different states of conciousness.  You could argue because my conciousness is different than it was when I was 10, that I am "two seperate people."  But in reality is the fluid and ever-moving state of my conciousness.

Next you have the "very nice lady has an industrial accident that disables her ability to control her impulses.  She now has sex like a fiend, is mean and roudy and hates on people."  This causes her to move away from religion.  This scenario has past life karma written all over it.  Perhaps in several previous lives she repressed her sexual impulses drastically, perhaps she was so reserved and wound so tight that it knawed on her soul, causing her feelings of guilt and self contempt. Now her self contempt is being projected by being mean and rowdy and "hating on people."  Thus, they do not like her back, and condemn her in the very way she condemned(s) herself.  She must face and overcome her karma.  However, she will have to deal with her promiscuity and mean and rowdyness in one way or another.  We must meet all our challenges that occur due to karma.  For example, a person who committs suicide (which is horrible, horrible, karma) will incarnate again and face that very same level of suffering, until he can overcome it.

Every action in this universe has a reaction.  That is why raising our own vibration through prayer, meditation, chanting, devotion, etc. is important.  For me it is based on results.  When I meditate and pray regularly, I am more kind, loving, harmonious, patient, and peaceful. Qualities that burn away negative karmic vibrations, although, there is no way of getting rid of some things, other than facing them and conquering them.

This was admittedly rushed and incomplete, but I wanted to get you an answer before I chill out this weekend.  Here are some things that might interest you CNS:

This movie talks about things that Indian yogi's have known for millenia, it is a great film.



http://www.whatthebleep.com/crystals/

Offline dohminator

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #473 on: March 25, 2011, 10:04:29 PM »
Quote
God is an bad person.  What kind of effing bad person.. etc.

Sounds a little resentful to me, but I get a better sense of where you are coming from and you seem pretty level headed.  It was just my initial impression.  Sounds like you became frustrated.  At first, this is very common.  

In an academic setting, which I am very familiar with, students who begin in Religious Studies have their faiths shaken pretty regularly as they become exposed to the overwhelming amount of belief systems and worldviews contrary to their own.  

To them, reconciling their sometimes narrow viewpoint on Truth is like trying to take a drink of water from a fire hydrant. Too much comes at them.  Too many questions they can't answer.  Too many doubts.  They get overwhelmed as concepts they have received through their theological and religious socialization come crashing down to the reality of the Big World we live in.  Sometimes this leads to an emphatic insistence on atheism, as they feel betrayed in a sense or feel like they have had the wool pulled over their eyes by the religion they grew up with. Almost as if, "I can't believe in anything anymore because I came to find out that my childhood religion just can't be true..." This is a quite common occurrence.

I will still be praying for you though dohminator.  We all have different paths, and different pre and post-natal karma to work out.  May God guide you in whatever system of faith or no faith you choose in this life.

As far as religion being a product of brain chemistry etc.  This says more about the person, than it says about the existence of God. Here is christian apologist Gregory Koukl speaking on the topic.



Listen to all five minutes, cause it takes him a bit to "get there."

Anyways, you described yourself as "passionate."  The source of you passion is coming from somewhere.  Seek the Source.  Maybe it is just the cold, robotic, physiological mechanisms of your brain chemistry afterall.  Or an ability to reason and scientifically negotiate reality. But maybe its not...

Finally, a way complicated answer made simple: Eternity is not of our space-time domain. Eternity is not linear, it is timeless, spaceless, and permeated with Bliss.  Although you might dismiss it or deny it, You can probably hear Eternity whispering to you at times. Still your mind, open your heart, and Listen.

Have a good weekend, and may God Bless everyone who has posted on this thread.


The god is an bad person stuff really isn't out of resentment.  It was just an interesting thought that I had one day and I think it rings true in a lot of ways.  Either God exists and is just messing with us, or he doesn't exist and it doesn't matter.  

And my passion is more a function of my personality.  I have always been interested in the big questions and I love to talk about them and debate them.  So I look for truth and an understanding of the world and the universe.  I just think that science can give us such a great understanding of all of these huge questions and help us to discover more and more about the world and ourselves.  Whereas I think religion kind of stops some of that.  It says, ok, we've discovered all that we can, everything after this is god's doing and his mystery, yet as we find out more, we find less need for it.  I've definitely had a lot of fun posting like crazy in this thread and hopefully some of it might cause some people to question and to think and to grow a little.  

Hey doh, you could have stopped at "I was raised Catholic."  Nuff said.  Thanks.

Well, I had to try to preempt the  "*groan* raised catholic, now I understand.  You just need to go to a better church" responses

Offline the KHAN!

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #474 on: March 25, 2011, 10:05:54 PM »
To be honest, Catholicism is awful. The only reason I support their existence is they have exorcists and I may need one some day.
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