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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Jerome Tang Coaches Kansas State Basketball => Topic started by: kso_FAN on April 01, 2012, 08:17:57 PM
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Welp.
For 12 or so hours I had some hope.
Then to go from the Gottlieb anticipation to the Weber realization was tough. Real tough.
But I'm an optimist and a numbers guy, so off and on for the last day I've been looking at the numbers. And looking...
I've decided that if you took Asbury and combined him with Wooly pretty much what you get is oscar Weber. Instead of a good old boy from a mid-sized Oklahoma City, Weber is the upper midwest version from Milwaukee. And like Asbury, Weber worked up as an assistant, got a BCS job, and eventually forced his employer to fire him by completely losing his team.
First I always wonder about long time assistants becoming head coaches. Weber sat under Keady for nearly 20 years before heading out on his own. That itself is disconcerting.
However, his time at Southern Illinois featured some solid teams and success that he built himself. It looks like it was a fun style, 70 possessions per game, solid at oboarding and getting the the FT line, forcing TOs; actually not too much different than Frank's style.
Then Illinois came calling. With Bill Self's talent some things seemed to change. There was still an emphasis on oboarding early, but as his career went along that waned. His early teams had great guards and shooting was premium, but as more of his own players moved in the shooting got worse. Weber's best team at Illinois shot 39% from 3 and 39% of their shots were 3s. This year's team shot 30% from 3 for the season. Granted the Big 10 is slow in general, but the pace of his teams dropped to the mid to low 60s. The FT rate of his teams at Illinois was mediocre, way below average. TO rate forced only got worse during his tenure as well.
There was a point where it didn't seem like Weber was a SLTH in the style of basketball he played, but he certainly has evolved into one. The classic case of slowing down the game, not taking chances on the offensive glass, not attacking and thus forcing fouls, and not forcing turnovers at a high clip. Weber's defensive numbers are solid (besides when he lost this year's team), but its definitely a style that keeps the offense in front of you and seemingly bores the defense into missing shots. On the offensive end it becames a game of hoping you make shots. The last several years his offense has been characterized by being average at effective FG%, TO rate, and OR% while being terrible at FT rate.
Then you look at the fact that he completely lost his last team, a team he built, and a team with some solid talent. A team that sat at 15-3 and ranked in the Top 25 with adv stats that looked like this:
Total Pace PPP eFG% TO% OR% FTR
Illini 66 1.04 51.6 21.0 33.5 32.8
Opp 66 0.92 46.9 22.0 28.0 34.7
Then the wheels fell off. On the way to being fired and Weber claiming he "guessed" it was his fault, his team went 2-12 with these numbers:
Total Pace PPP eFG% TO% OR% FTR
Illini 63 0.96 46.8 19.7 27.7 28.3
Opp 63 1.07 53.3 18.2 28.5 41.2
So Currie has left us with a head scratching hire. I appreciate the angst of the board, but I leave that to the rest of you who are much better at it than me. Now I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to go back to watching this brand of basketball. Should most of the players stick around, Weber will be fine next year, he won't be able to coach out the toughness that Frank instilled in one year. But as time goes on I'll miss the tenacity, effort, and agressiveness I've comed to love the last 6 years. Many have called it ugly basketball, but its become the basketball I prefer.
Now I'm faced with going back to watching some combination of Asbury and Wooly.
Thanks John Currie.
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I'd rather just have 100% Wooly. They all 3 are going to put a crappy team on the floor, at least Wooly was likable and tried. Asbury cared about as much about the program as Currie, and it looks like Weber will stop giving a crap a soon as McGruder and JO are gone.
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:bawl:
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this ordeal is turning into a tragedy
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STRAIGHT TO THE BOTTOM.
:(
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I almost wish Rodney and JO would just leave that way we can hit the ground running on sucking and get Weber out sooner rather than later.
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So lots of perimeter passing, a jump shot, 4 back to guard against transition and no o-boards? Got it.
:bang:
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WHEN YOU LOSE _FAN, YOU LOSE THE WAR.
So long, John Currie.
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I almost wish Rodney and JO would just leave that way we can hit the ground running on sucking and get Weber out sooner rather than later.
That's the thing that's tough. Next year will actually probably be pretty good if they stay because I think Weber is smart enough not to mess them up and he can't coach the toughness out of them. Its after that things will likely get ugly in a hurry based on his track record at Illinois.
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Someone photoshop BW with a disturbingly red face and a neck brace. K thanks.
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So lots of perimeter passing, a jump shot, 4 back to guard against transition and no o-boards? Got it.
:bang:
I don't know if it will be that bad, he had several teams that oboarded at a clip in the upper 30s. I could live with that.
But based on being consistently terrible at getting to the FT line that the offense will feature a lot of jumpers.
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I was waiting for him to say "fools gold" during the press conference. That was my stroke word.
By the way, mods, I want to apologize for doubling my post count in 36 hours with an endless stream of hatred and anger...but right now this outlet is the only thing keeping me out of prison.
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I want someone who makes me uncomfortable to schedule a game @UMKC in year 4. Just to see.
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So lots of perimeter passing, a jump shot, 4 back to guard against transition and no o-boards? Got it.
:bang:
I don't know if it will be that bad, he had several teams that oboarded at a clip in the upper 30s. I could live with that.
But based on being consistently terrible at getting to the FT line that the offense will feature a lot of jumpers.
Well at least Rodney will turn in to Rip Hamilton. That will be kind of fun I guess.
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My issue with him is he is the opposite of Frank as far as intensity. He got fired, then took everyone out for chicken nuggets. He says "I guess its my fault." He just doesn't care. I can't stand that I care more than he does. He could be great at everything else, but he can't lead like that, and can't succeed like that. Players see that losing isn't a big deal, that the coach doesn't expect more.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
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I was waiting for him to say "fools gold" during the press conference. That was my stroke word.
Honestly this is one of the strangest things in following the trends of his teams. He has had several teams that shoot tons of 3s, with a 3PA% of 38-39%, and then some that don't shoot many at all, hovering between 29-30%.
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My issue with him is he is the opposite of Frank as far as intensity. He got fired, then took everyone out for chicken nuggets. He says "I guess its my fault." He just doesn't care. I can't stand that I care more than he does. He could be great at everything else, but he can't lead like that, and can't succeed like that. Players see that losing isn't a big deal, that the coach doesn't expect more.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
This is my biggest concern too, and probably a big reason he lost his team this year. I mean all of his players seemed to like him based on his last press conference, but not many respected him enough to play that hard for him.
Pretty much the exact opposite of Frank, so I guess Currie's choice shouldn't be that much of a surprise.
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I was waiting for him to say "fools gold" during the press conference. That was my stroke word.
By the way, mods, I want to apologize for doubling my post count in 36 hours with an endless stream of hatred and anger...but right now this outlet is the only thing keeping me out of prison.
:lol: I mean a good straight minute.
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I know your talking about style here fan, but I just wanted to clarify...are you saying you think the results for the next five years will be somewhere between those two eras?
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I know your talking about style here fan, but I just wanted to clarify...are you saying you think the results for the next five years will be somewhere between those two eras?
Yeah, probably. I'd guess if Weber is around for 5 years we'll go to an NCAA, probably next year, then mix in a couple .500 (or below) seasons with a couple of 19/20 win NIT seasons.
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No one really knows how Weber will do...just a matter of waiting and seeing. People Could be right and he could suck horribly. On the other hand, you don't know if he will be successful here or not. He COULD be great here. Sounds stupid, but a true statement
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No one really knows how Weber will do...just a matter of waiting and seeing. People Could be right and he could suck horribly. On the other hand, you don't know if he will be successful here or not. He COULD be great here. Sounds stupid, but a true statement
Of course. But I'm trying to judge based on his track record. Plus he's 55 years old, people don't change much in general, but especially when they are 55.
We'll see, I just hoped Currie would hire a coach that could perhaps equal the record Frank achieved, even if he couldn't match Frank's personality and national face for the program. I just don't see Weber doing that based on looking back at what he did at Illinois.
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_FAN! (http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=20419.msg506320#msg506320)
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I like Woolbury.
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_FAN! (http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=20419.msg506320#msg506320)
YOU KNOW ME. You know me.
I really tried to recover and approach Weber as positive as I could. I have a 6 sheet excel file breaking down his tenure as a head coach.
The problem was the more I looked, the worse it got.
Honestly, if we were getting Weber straight from Southern Illinois everyone would be excited; he had a fun team that played fast. I'm afraid Big 10 basketball and SLTH style has permeated his being though.
Sad really.
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_FAN! (http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=20419.msg506320#msg506320)
YOU KNOW ME. You know me.
I really tried to recover and approach Weber as positive as I could. I have a 6 sheet excel file breaking down his tenure as a head coach.
The problem was the more I looked, the worse it got.
Honestly, if we were getting Weber straight from Southern Illinois everyone would be excited; he had a fun team that played fast. I'm afraid Big 10 basketball and SLTH style has permeated his being though.
Sad really.
OMG, CURRIE HAD THE WRONG CHARTS!
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Welp. I as hanging around kind of hoping _FAN could make me feel a little better about all of this. fml
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THERE IS NO GOD
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Sorry. :frown:
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Sorry. :frown:
Oh boy. I said on my podcast with KK today that I'd be willing to give Weber a chance, albeit very tentatively. I kinda want to revise that now.
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Sorry. :frown:
Oh boy. I said on my podcast with KK today that I'd be willing to give Weber a chance, albeit very tentatively. I kinda want to revise that now.
Honestly, as time goes along, I will give him a "chance".
I will continue to watch games, break down games, etc.
The issue is I think we'll probably have Asbury-ish success.
Postseason more often than not.
NITs more often than NCAAs.
And unless he pulls a fiasco like he did last year (not unlikely), Weber will hang around as long as Currie is here.
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Weber will hang around as long as Currie is here.
:excited:
Finally a ray of hope!!
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_FAN! (http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=20419.msg506320#msg506320)
YOU KNOW ME. You know me.
I really tried to recover and approach Weber as positive as I could. I have a 6 sheet excel file breaking down his tenure as a head coach.
The problem was the more I looked, the worse it got.
Honestly, if we were getting Weber straight from Southern Illinois everyone would be excited; he had a fun team that played fast. I'm afraid Big 10 basketball and SLTH style has permeated his being though.
Sad really.
OMG, CURRIE HAD THE WRONG CHARTS!
There weren't any charts or graphs at all. Currie was stroking it to the free Skinamax... over and over again. :jerk:
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OMG, CURRIE HAD THE WRONG CHARTS!
Well, at the very least, I think its pretty clear that Currie doesn't use kenpom.
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Sorry. :frown:
To your credit, it's by far the most well-articulated anti-Weber post I've seen.
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there is hope. there's a lot of evidence to support someone who makes me uncomfortable is going to lose and it's going to be a slow, boring death. But, like, he could learn. He could get a recruiter on staff. He could change for the better as a coach. Maybe he gets back to the things that worked at SIU w/ Lowery. I dunno. Those are all things that could happen. And if they did, KSU would be successful. I mean, we f'ing deserve something, don't we? We rough ridin' backed a Frank Martin with everything we had even when everyone called us dumbsticks. I dunno. People still believe in God and no one's seen him/her. Maybe I just haven't reached the acceptance part of grieving.
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Here's the deal oscar, John, and whoever else in the department is out there is reading this:
If Weber would hire _Fan as a analyst/strategist, and start working to correct all of the disturbing tendencies developed at Illinois, I'll give this train-wreck an honest chance.
Moneycatsketball.
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_FAN, why don't you drop some knowledge on those rationalizing powertards? You are far too silent over yonder.
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What's sad is Wooly never had a chance to live it up like BW has, yet he just might be able to out coach him.
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_FAN! (http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=20419.msg506320#msg506320)
YOU KNOW ME. You know me.
I really tried to recover and approach Weber as positive as I could. I have a 6 sheet excel file breaking down his tenure as a head coach.
The problem was the more I looked, the worse it got.
Honestly, if we were getting Weber straight from Southern Illinois everyone would be excited; he had a fun team that played fast. I'm afraid Big 10 basketball and SLTH style has permeated his being though.
Sad really.
Weber admitted after the Purdue loss this year that he changed the way he coached. He knew he was going to get fired, so he let a couple of things slip about how they had a culture of toughness at SIU, and he tried to please people too much at Illinois. He said if he could go back and do it all over again, he would have done it the way he did at SIU.
I'm not going to come out and say that Weber is in the middle of some post-epiphany reinvention of himself, but I think we are a much more 'comfortable' environment than Illinois. We don't have their expectations, which were already completely unrealistic before Self came. Illinois is a lot like Mizzou in the sense that they think they're this destination job, but when you compare them to the K-States of the world, historical success is pretty much even across the board. In fact, in terms of NCAA tournament success, KSU ties or beats them in all but one category (Final Fours), and oddly enough, it was Weber that put them ahead of us, and he's the only one that ever took them to a title game.
Anyway, I think if you go back and look at his tenure, and remove the statistical aspects, you see a guy that even at the height of his game there was being compared and deemed less than Self. Which is totally justified, but he did better than Self in his first three years, and they still loved Bill more. I think it screwed with him. He lived in Self's shadow for nine years, and I think it changed him.
My hope is that he comes in here with Lowery (which is a hire that I approve of, actually), and they regain that approach they took at SIU where they were tough defenders and rebounders that pushed the ball up the floor. The roster is here for that. There's no need to do what he did at Illinois because, well, there's plenty of evidence that it didn't work. If he didn't learn from it, he deserves to be canned from another high major job.
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_FAN! (http://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=20419.msg506320#msg506320)
YOU KNOW ME. You know me.
I really tried to recover and approach Weber as positive as I could. I have a 6 sheet excel file breaking down his tenure as a head coach.
The problem was the more I looked, the worse it got.
Honestly, if we were getting Weber straight from Southern Illinois everyone would be excited; he had a fun team that played fast. I'm afraid Big 10 basketball and SLTH style has permeated his being though.
Sad really.
Weber admitted after the Purdue loss this year that he changed the way he coached. He knew he was going to get fired, so he let a couple of things slip about how they had a culture of toughness at SIU, and he tried to please people too much at Illinois. He said if he could go back and do it all over again, he would have done it the way he did at SIU.
I'm not going to come out and say that Weber is in the middle of some post-epiphany reinvention of himself, but I think we are a much more 'comfortable' environment than Illinois. We don't have their expectations, which were already completely unrealistic before Self came. Illinois is a lot like Mizzou in the sense that they think they're this destination job, but when you compare them to the K-States of the world, historical success is pretty much even across the board. In fact, in terms of NCAA tournament success, KSU ties or beats them in all but one category (Final Fours), and oddly enough, it was Weber that put them ahead of us, and he's the only one that ever took them to a title game.
Anyway, I think if you go back and look at his tenure, and remove the statistical aspects, you see a guy that even at the height of his game there was being compared and deemed less than Self. Which is totally justified, but he did better than Self in his first three years, and they still loved Bill more. I think it screwed with him. He lived in Self's shadow for nine years, and I think it changed him.
My hope is that he comes in here with Lowery (which is a hire that I approve of, actually), and they regain that approach they took at SIU where they were tough defenders and rebounders that pushed the ball up the floor. The roster is here for that. There's no need to do what he did at Illinois because, well, there's plenty of evidence that it didn't work. If he didn't learn from it, he deserves to be canned from another high major job.
This is a good post. I noted the same thing re: Illinois yesterday after reading Weber's history on wiki. They're basically an indentical program to KSU all-time but have KU-like expectations.
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Weber admitted after the Purdue loss this year that he changed the way he coached. He knew he was going to get fired, so he let a couple of things slip about how they had a culture of toughness at SIU, and he tried to please people too much at Illinois. He said if he could go back and do it all over again, he would have done it the way he did at SIU.
I'm not going to come out and say that Weber is in the middle of some post-epiphany reinvention of himself, but I think we are a much more 'comfortable' environment than Illinois. We don't have their expectations, which were already completely unrealistic before Self came. Illinois is a lot like Mizzou in the sense that they think they're this destination job, but when you compare them to the K-States of the world, historical success is pretty much even across the board. In fact, in terms of NCAA tournament success, KSU ties or beats them in all but one category (Final Fours), and oddly enough, it was Weber that put them ahead of us, and he's the only one that ever took them to a title game.
Anyway, I think if you go back and look at his tenure, and remove the statistical aspects, you see a guy that even at the height of his game there was being compared and deemed less than Self. Which is totally justified, but he did better than Self in his first three years, and they still loved Bill more. I think it screwed with him. He lived in Self's shadow for nine years, and I think it changed him.
My hope is that he comes in here with Lowery (which is a hire that I approve of, actually), and they regain that approach they took at SIU where they were tough defenders and rebounders that pushed the ball up the floor. The roster is here for that. There's no need to do what he did at Illinois because, well, there's plenty of evidence that it didn't work. If he didn't learn from it, he deserves to be canned from another high major job.
Pan, I will admit I've had some of these thoughts as well, I'm just concerned that once you are 55 years old change can be tough. No doubt he will definitely need to change how he did things at Illinois, we'll see if he can do that here. I agree that Lowry is not a bad hire, I think bad head coaches can (and often are) really good assistants. I just hope he hasn't lost any recruiting credibility the last few years with his terrible teams at SoIll. Weber must find some solid recruiters to fill his last two spots, he doesn't need coaching help at this point. Young guys with energy that can recruit, either his old stomping grounds in Illinois or the south/Texas.
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Weber admitted after the Purdue loss this year that he changed the way he coached. He knew he was going to get fired, so he let a couple of things slip about how they had a culture of toughness at SIU, and he tried to please people too much at Illinois. He said if he could go back and do it all over again, he would have done it the way he did at SIU.
I'm not going to come out and say that Weber is in the middle of some post-epiphany reinvention of himself, but I think we are a much more 'comfortable' environment than Illinois. We don't have their expectations, which were already completely unrealistic before Self came. Illinois is a lot like Mizzou in the sense that they think they're this destination job, but when you compare them to the K-States of the world, historical success is pretty much even across the board. In fact, in terms of NCAA tournament success, KSU ties or beats them in all but one category (Final Fours), and oddly enough, it was Weber that put them ahead of us, and he's the only one that ever took them to a title game.
Anyway, I think if you go back and look at his tenure, and remove the statistical aspects, you see a guy that even at the height of his game there was being compared and deemed less than Self. Which is totally justified, but he did better than Self in his first three years, and they still loved Bill more. I think it screwed with him. He lived in Self's shadow for nine years, and I think it changed him.
My hope is that he comes in here with Lowery (which is a hire that I approve of, actually), and they regain that approach they took at SIU where they were tough defenders and rebounders that pushed the ball up the floor. The roster is here for that. There's no need to do what he did at Illinois because, well, there's plenty of evidence that it didn't work. If he didn't learn from it, he deserves to be canned from another high major job.
Pan, I will admit I've had some of these thoughts as well, I'm just concerned that once you are 55 years old change can be tough. No doubt he will definitely need to change how he did things at Illinois, we'll see if he can do that here. I agree that Lowry is not a bad hire, I think bad head coaches can (and often are) really good assistants. I just hope he hasn't lost any recruiting credibility the last few years with his terrible teams at SoIll. Weber must find some solid recruiters to fill his last two spots, he doesn't need coaching help at this point. Young guys with energy that can recruit, either his old stomping grounds in Illinois or the south/Texas.
Yea, but unfortunately he's gonna be coaching under a shadow here too, and have the problem that our coach didn't chose to leave us, he was run off. That's going to cause some to have a hard time accepting him. As soon as anything goes wrong he's going to have to deal with the Frank comparisons.
I will say right now, if we go to the championship game next year, I will be fine fully jumping on board with Weber, LOL.
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Yea, but unfortunately he's gonna be coaching under a shadow here too, and have the problem that our coach didn't chose to leave us, he was run off. That's going to cause some to have a hard time accepting him. As soon as anything goes wrong he's going to have to deal with the Frank comparisons.
I will say right now, if we go to the championship game next year, I will be fine fully jumping on board with Weber, LOL.
No doubt about that. Weber will never be Frank and that will absolutely hurt him with many fans when he starts struggling.
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Someone on GP made the comparison for Weber to Tubby Smith and Kentucky/Minnesota. That's pretty good.
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Weber admitted after the Purdue loss this year that he changed the way he coached. He knew he was going to get fired, so he let a couple of things slip about how they had a culture of toughness at SIU, and he tried to please people too much at Illinois. He said if he could go back and do it all over again, he would have done it the way he did at SIU.
I'm not going to come out and say that Weber is in the middle of some post-epiphany reinvention of himself, but I think we are a much more 'comfortable' environment than Illinois. We don't have their expectations, which were already completely unrealistic before Self came. Illinois is a lot like Mizzou in the sense that they think they're this destination job, but when you compare them to the K-States of the world, historical success is pretty much even across the board. In fact, in terms of NCAA tournament success, KSU ties or beats them in all but one category (Final Fours), and oddly enough, it was Weber that put them ahead of us, and he's the only one that ever took them to a title game.
Anyway, I think if you go back and look at his tenure, and remove the statistical aspects, you see a guy that even at the height of his game there was being compared and deemed less than Self. Which is totally justified, but he did better than Self in his first three years, and they still loved Bill more. I think it screwed with him. He lived in Self's shadow for nine years, and I think it changed him.
My hope is that he comes in here with Lowery (which is a hire that I approve of, actually), and they regain that approach they took at SIU where they were tough defenders and rebounders that pushed the ball up the floor. The roster is here for that. There's no need to do what he did at Illinois because, well, there's plenty of evidence that it didn't work. If he didn't learn from it, he deserves to be canned from another high major job.
Pan, I will admit I've had some of these thoughts as well, I'm just concerned that once you are 55 years old change can be tough. No doubt he will definitely need to change how he did things at Illinois, we'll see if he can do that here. I agree that Lowry is not a bad hire, I think bad head coaches can (and often are) really good assistants. I just hope he hasn't lost any recruiting credibility the last few years with his terrible teams at SoIll. Weber must find some solid recruiters to fill his last two spots, he doesn't need coaching help at this point. Young guys with energy that can recruit, either his old stomping grounds in Illinois or the south/Texas.
I'm more worried about the necessary change because he seemed so unaware of it in the press conference. He thinks he was fired for having 6 freshman and losing close games one season.
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Someone on GP made the comparison for Weber to Tubby Smith and Kentucky/Minnesota. That's pretty good.
This was the first thing i thought of.
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Someone on GP made the comparison for Weber to Tubby Smith and Kentucky/Minnesota. That's pretty good.
I'd rather have had Pitino than Frank.
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Weber admitted after the Purdue loss this year that he changed the way he coached. He knew he was going to get fired, so he let a couple of things slip about how they had a culture of toughness at SIU, and he tried to please people too much at Illinois. He said if he could go back and do it all over again, he would have done it the way he did at SIU.
I'm not going to come out and say that Weber is in the middle of some post-epiphany reinvention of himself, but I think we are a much more 'comfortable' environment than Illinois. We don't have their expectations, which were already completely unrealistic before Self came. Illinois is a lot like Mizzou in the sense that they think they're this destination job, but when you compare them to the K-States of the world, historical success is pretty much even across the board. In fact, in terms of NCAA tournament success, KSU ties or beats them in all but one category (Final Fours), and oddly enough, it was Weber that put them ahead of us, and he's the only one that ever took them to a title game.
Anyway, I think if you go back and look at his tenure, and remove the statistical aspects, you see a guy that even at the height of his game there was being compared and deemed less than Self. Which is totally justified, but he did better than Self in his first three years, and they still loved Bill more. I think it screwed with him. He lived in Self's shadow for nine years, and I think it changed him.
My hope is that he comes in here with Lowery (which is a hire that I approve of, actually), and they regain that approach they took at SIU where they were tough defenders and rebounders that pushed the ball up the floor. The roster is here for that. There's no need to do what he did at Illinois because, well, there's plenty of evidence that it didn't work. If he didn't learn from it, he deserves to be canned from another high major job.
Pan, I will admit I've had some of these thoughts as well, I'm just concerned that once you are 55 years old change can be tough. No doubt he will definitely need to change how he did things at Illinois, we'll see if he can do that here. I agree that Lowry is not a bad hire, I think bad head coaches can (and often are) really good assistants. I just hope he hasn't lost any recruiting credibility the last few years with his terrible teams at SoIll. Weber must find some solid recruiters to fill his last two spots, he doesn't need coaching help at this point. Young guys with energy that can recruit, either his old stomping grounds in Illinois or the south/Texas.
I'm more worried about the necessary change because he seemed so unaware of it in the press conference. He thinks he was fired for having 6 freshman and losing close games one season.
Yeah, I will 100% agree with this. I'd be much less concerned if he came out and said, "we lost our culture of toughness at UofI, and that's something I intend to bring back," etc. The bottom line is that if he runs things exactly like he did at UofI, we will fail, there's no doubt. But if he can change, we might have a shot.
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Weber admitted after the Purdue loss this year that he changed the way he coached. He knew he was going to get fired, so he let a couple of things slip about how they had a culture of toughness at SIU, and he tried to please people too much at Illinois. He said if he could go back and do it all over again, he would have done it the way he did at SIU.
I'm not going to come out and say that Weber is in the middle of some post-epiphany reinvention of himself, but I think we are a much more 'comfortable' environment than Illinois. We don't have their expectations, which were already completely unrealistic before Self came. Illinois is a lot like Mizzou in the sense that they think they're this destination job, but when you compare them to the K-States of the world, historical success is pretty much even across the board. In fact, in terms of NCAA tournament success, KSU ties or beats them in all but one category (Final Fours), and oddly enough, it was Weber that put them ahead of us, and he's the only one that ever took them to a title game.
Anyway, I think if you go back and look at his tenure, and remove the statistical aspects, you see a guy that even at the height of his game there was being compared and deemed less than Self. Which is totally justified, but he did better than Self in his first three years, and they still loved Bill more. I think it screwed with him. He lived in Self's shadow for nine years, and I think it changed him.
My hope is that he comes in here with Lowery (which is a hire that I approve of, actually), and they regain that approach they took at SIU where they were tough defenders and rebounders that pushed the ball up the floor. The roster is here for that. There's no need to do what he did at Illinois because, well, there's plenty of evidence that it didn't work. If he didn't learn from it, he deserves to be canned from another high major job.
Pan, I will admit I've had some of these thoughts as well, I'm just concerned that once you are 55 years old change can be tough. No doubt he will definitely need to change how he did things at Illinois, we'll see if he can do that here. I agree that Lowry is not a bad hire, I think bad head coaches can (and often are) really good assistants. I just hope he hasn't lost any recruiting credibility the last few years with his terrible teams at SoIll. Weber must find some solid recruiters to fill his last two spots, he doesn't need coaching help at this point. Young guys with energy that can recruit, either his old stomping grounds in Illinois or the south/Texas.
I'm more worried about the necessary change because he seemed so unaware of it in the press conference. He thinks he was fired for having 6 freshman and losing close games one season.
Yeah, I will 100% agree with this. I'd be much less concerned if he came out and said, "we lost our culture of toughness at UofI, and that's something I intend to bring back," etc. The bottom line is that if he runs things exactly like he did at UofI, we will fail, there's no doubt. But if he can change, we might have a shot.
The Illinois fans seemed to consistently criticize Weber for what they perceived as "excuse making."
He always has someone else to blame.
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One thing I have to add is that I did not find Weber to be a poor recruiter and his recruiting actually improved the last few years.
Since 09 he signed 9 Top 80 high school players and 4 were Top 50. One of them left early (went undrafted). This year's roster had 8 of those players and arguably his top 3 players.
If anything having that talent and losing his team this year is the concern, not that he lost with mediocre talent because he didn't. He recruited much better than Frank the last few years.
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Someone on GP made the comparison for Weber to Tubby Smith and Kentucky/Minnesota. That's pretty good.
I'd rather have had Pitino than Frank.
Umm, we're the Minnesota of that example.
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Someone on GP made the comparison for Weber to Tubby Smith and Kentucky/Minnesota. That's pretty good.
I'd rather have had Pitino than Frank.
Umm, we're the Minnesota of that example.
unfortunately.... :blindfold:
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_FAN, what do you think our peak is under Weber based on everything you know now and Angel is the only one currently leaving?
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_FAN, what do you think our peak is under Weber based on everything you know now and Angel is the only one currently leaving?
I think its likely he could replicate his last 6 years at Illinois while at K-State. A couple NCAAs, a couple NITs, a couple .500ish seasons.
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_FAN, what do you think our peak is under Weber based on everything you know now and Angel is the only one currently leaving?
I think its likely he could replicate his last 6 years at Illinois while at K-State. A couple NCAAs, a couple NITs, a couple .500ish seasons.
Looking at his record at Illinois, conference and overall, this is exactly what I thought. Probably at best 3rd in the conference (next year), at worst 8th. We'll probably sign him to a contract extension because he made a NCAA or two, then we'll fire him after 8 or 9 years, it will be a long slow death into SLTH-dom.
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Someone on GP made the comparison for Weber to Tubby Smith and Kentucky/Minnesota. That's pretty good.
I'd rather have had Pitino than Frank.
Umm, we're the Minnesota of that example.
Yeah, I guess I completely misunderstood. I was thinking it was like Tubby taking over for Pitino. Not Tubby ending up at Minnesota.
I think it's been pounded home time and time again that Illinois is not, if at all, more successful than KSU. So I didn't fathom anyone was comparing the Illini job to UK. That's just foolish.
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Someone on GP made the comparison for Weber to Tubby Smith and Kentucky/Minnesota. That's pretty good.
I'd rather have had Pitino than Frank.
Umm, we're the Minnesota of that example.
Yeah, I guess I completely misunderstood. I was thinking it was like Tubby taking over for Pitino. Not Tubby ending up at Minnesota.
I think it's been pounded home time and time again that Illinois is not, if at all, more successful than KSU. So I didn't fathom anyone was comparing the Illini job to UK. That's just foolish.
The point was a guy taking over a national program in excellent shape, having great success initially, then eventually getting run off because he didn't meet that program's expectations. That happened for both Tubby and oscar. Now we've seen what Tubby has done getting hired at a similar program as K-State, though K-State is much shape than Minnesota was when Tubby took over at Minnesota. I think its a pretty good comparison though.
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One thing I have to add is that I did not find Weber to be a poor recruiter and his recruiting actually improved the last few years.
Since 09 he signed 9 Top 80 high school players and 4 were Top 50. One of them left early (went undrafted). This year's roster had 8 of those players and arguably his top 3 players.
If anything having that talent and losing his team this year is the concern, not that he lost with mediocre talent because he didn't. He recruited much better than Frank the last few years.
the recruiting was better due to one man: Jerrance Howard. He came in during 08. Since then the recruiting got better. Illinois, KU and lol Weber are fighting for him (I assume Weber is).
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Someone on GP made the comparison for Weber to Tubby Smith and Kentucky/Minnesota. That's pretty good.
I'd rather have had Pitino than Frank.
Umm, we're the Minnesota of that example.
Yeah, I guess I completely misunderstood. I was thinking it was like Tubby taking over for Pitino. Not Tubby ending up at Minnesota.
I think it's been pounded home time and time again that Illinois is not, if at all, more successful than KSU. So I didn't fathom anyone was comparing the Illini job to UK. That's just foolish.
The point was a guy taking over a national program in excellent shape, having great success initially, then eventually getting run off because he didn't meet that program's expectations. That happened for both Tubby and oscar. Now we've seen what Tubby has done getting hired at a similar program as K-State, though K-State is much shape than Minnesota was when Tubby took over at Minnesota. I think its a pretty good comparison though.
He didn't have Saul Smith at Minnesota though....doomed to fail without him. At least Tubby got that title!
In all seriousness, I'm understand the analogy and it being warranted. I was half asleep when I made my initial preferring Pitino over Frank comment. Still mean it, but it's not worth replying to.
I'm just blue and unsure what to think, disregard my current postings.
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I think we are looking at more of an Altman level of performance than Woolly or Tan Tom. We will see a few NCAA bids and NIT bids. It won't be as bad as the depths of the dark days but we will become the epitome of mediocrity.
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I think we are looking at more of an Altman level of performance than Woolly or Tan Tom. We will see a few NCAA bids and NIT bids. It won't be as bad as the depths of the dark days but we will become the epitome of mediocrity.
I would tend to agree but Altman was able to recruit High major athletes from the juco ranks at that time, I am really concerned we will have Nebraska-esque athletes under Weber.
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I kind of like the ring to "Weberberryridge"
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I kind of like the ring to "Weberryridge"
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Weber in Big 10 play.
89-65 (58%) Overall
101-73 (58%) Including Big 10 Tournament
55-22 (71%) Home
34-43 (44%) Road
12-8 (60%) Big 10 Tournament
Last 6 years:
50-56 (47%) Overall
57-62 (48%) Including Big 10 Tournament
34-21 (63%) Home
16-35 (32%) Road
7-6 (54%) Big 10 Tournament
The one edge you see over Asbury/Wooly is that he did win some on the road, even the last 6 years. But again, he's going to be compared to Frank and Frank won 70% of his home games and 50% of his road games in conference play.
Also here's Weber's team by team Big 10 record (including Big 12 Tournament)
Minnesota 13 3 81.3%
Iowa 13 3 81.3%
Northwestern 13 4 76.5%
Indiana 11 6 64.7%
Penn St. 10 7 58.8%
Michigan 10 7 58.8%
Michigan St. 8 8 50.0%
Nebraska 1 1 50.0%
Wisconsin 9 12 42.9%
Purdue 7 11 38.9%
Ohio St. 6 11 35.3%
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This seems like as good a Weber thread as any for this.
Just got done listening to him on mad dog. They raved about how genuine he was. Weber said he wouldn't be rooting for KU (no TSC). Said he had a couple of other opportunities but K-State was the best (I assume the only major). Keady put a lot of this together. He is excited to see the players on the court today. Still has to put a staff together. Talked about some Purdue runs that ended due to injuries that are going to hurt Keady getting into HoF (bad luck).
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7275%2F6893440230_b34677b310_z.jpg&hash=88daa342eb6fcdc827afbad093beb528de53ab44)