Debate 3

[Rage Against the McKee]

A lot of my product's high-value components come from Mexico or Canada even, because it's cheaper to make them there and ship them here.  Anecdotal, I know, and honestly I'm not sure of what the solution is, of it there is a good one.  But if those jobs were here they'd be good paying jobs.

I think one thing that is not considered often, is that these imported products are cheaper because these other countries don't have the safety and environmental regulations we have in this country.  So we pay less for the same widget we could have made ourselves, but it comes at a human cost (safety) of someone we don't care about because they live in a foreign country.  That's unfortunate.  And then there's the environmental cost.  I would even argue that the environmental cost is even higher because of the fossil fuels burned to get product here.

If trade were restricted and those jobs were here, your product would be more expensive, which might put your job in jeopardy.

[CNS]

I agree with you about the human and enviro cost.  Maybe they should extend our regulations so that any US biz has to ensure those regs are met as if they are being manufactured in the US.

That said, part of it is just plain old cheap labor due to living costs.

One of my manufacturers make all their components in MX as well.  MX is no dummy.  Many areas are forcing companies to provide all kinds of stuff as part of their starting up a plant.  For instance, they had to provide a certain standard of meals, child care, and even an onsite med clinic for use by all workers and their families.  Even given that, they still saved enough money to justify building a huge plant from scratch just across the boarder. 

Another of the manufacturers I use has a very similar story, but on a smaller scale.  However, the rest of his story is that he is not only saving a crap load of money, but the paint finish he provides is crazy superior to what he can do in his California plant because the material used was banned by our govt in the '60's, or something, according to him.  Our regulations don't prohibit a product having that finish, but prohibit the application of the finish to the product. 

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Posted this last time: podcast I heard a while back noted that 80% of jobs lost since NAFTA was signed have been lost to automation, not foreign labor.  We should outlaw robots and computers?

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

I think the other 20% is worth talking about.

Agreed.  However, discussing them like its going to take Detroit and make it what it was is silly.  Also, I don't think that it is something that can be made a primary issue in a campaign.  I mean, we are talking about taking very low paying jobs away from mexico.  What do you do then, make them high paying jobs making those products much more expensive?  I mean, Pubs lost their crap over the burger guys wanting $15/hr yet we will give it to someone who presses a button on the side of a sneaker making machine?  Are we going to dictate to biz where they can make product?  None of that is conservative in nature. 

Its all bullshit that makes ppl that don't think in detail say "eff yes!" and think about the four wheeler they want to buy with all their shoe maker button pressing money that they will have under President Trump.

Not an anti-free trade guy, but the vast majority of the jobs "created" during this so-called recovery are low paying part time jobs. That evident by the stagnant/declining wage growth. Obamacare and new flsa rules have contributed enormously to that problem, but also the lost of manf jobs overseas. When faced with a low paying job without benefits (e.g, waitresd) and a low paying steady 40 with benefits (e.g. rivet installer), the country stands to gain. Labor unions would have to have a come to jesus moment to get the jobs back to detroit, but the jobs could realistically be "decent paying" in smaller communities across the midwest and south.

[wetwillie]

Canada has more lax regulations and lower costs of labor?  I find that hard to believe.

[CNS]

What is "decent paying", though. 

I mean, there is a reason why immigrants risk everything to get to this country then are willing to work below min wage. 

I don't see how you can compete with that level of discrepancy and provide something any American will see as decent.   

[Emo EMAW]

Canada has more lax regulations and lower costs of labor?  I find that hard to believe.

I'm not sure why it is the way it is w.r.t. Canada, but we import a lot from them, stuff we used to do ourselves.

Anyway my comment on safety and environmental regulations apply to China and other places like that too.

[CNS]

The problem with the enviro stuff is that there would be no way to ensure it's being followed without simply telling the companies that China has crap emissions and you can't produce there.  Then you land on another country with gray area type behavior.  Then you need a mechanism to monitor that gray area to make sure it doesn't shift to make it's manufacturing more attractive.  Then you need a body to address that. 

I don't see how we do this in an open market system. 

Conservative business owners are the real globalists.  To try to reconcile that with wanting to bring jobs back would require conservatives to adjust their platform.  Either consent to more regulation(similar to the above), or be told who you can do biz with by the govt(and not for security reasons).  It would basically be us imposing economic sanctions on certain countries without any security issue having come up.  It would be pretty cluster-eff'ey.

Pubs need to be discussing ways to create new types of jobs rather than bringing back jobs we have lost.  The problem with that is it quickly leads to addressing education, and no Pub wants to go down that road.

[meow meow]

wacky, everything going alright for you?

he needs a sandwich

[Panjandrum]

Watching post-debate focus groups on ESPN make me lose faith in humanity.

ESPN is doing debate stuff? They need to get the eff out of politics

I was wondering if that was something that needed to be corrected, certainly he was wrong about what channel he was watching, right?

It was CNN. Brain freeze.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

What is "decent paying", though. 

I mean, there is a reason why immigrants risk everything to get to this country then are willing to work below min wage. 

I don't see how you can compete with that level of discrepancy and provide something any American will see as decent.   

$15 p/hr in dinkleberg, usa is decent paying enough to buy (finance) a house, used pickup and even a bass boat, and still have money left over for beer, smokes and beef. Particularly if mama works a couple night shifts.

When you factor in efficiencies, the value of skilled labor, and the cost of transporting manf goods, it's probably close from a cost standpoint.

[star seed 7]

31k a year is much harder to live on than you imagine

[star seed 7]

Also shipping costs are much lower than you imagine

[EMAWican]

The environmental cost in the U.S. is ridic when compared to other countries. Environmental costs are a small reason why the jobs are leaving and probably not the main one, but I find it interesting.  I had a rather large manufacturing client who was fined into bankruptcy by the EPA for incomplete paperwork. Were they hurting the environment or people? No. They just didn't have some paper together like they should and weren't following the "law." I realize that this is a random example, but I don't know of any other country where a manufacturing company would close for the same infractions. Why would companies in the U.S. want to put up with that kind of stuff?

[Trim]

trim was right

What happened when you posted this that made you come around?

[CNS]

Also shipping costs are much lower than you imagine

also, the cost of beef lately is much more than you imagine.

[star seed 7]

The environmental cost in the U.S. is ridic when compared to other countries. Environmental costs are a small reason why the jobs are leaving and probably not the main one, but I find it interesting.  I had a rather large manufacturing client who was fined into bankruptcy by the EPA for incomplete paperwork. Were they hurting the environment or people? No. They just didn't have some paper together like they should and weren't following the "law." I realize that this is a random example, but I don't know of any other country where a manufacturing company would close for the same infractions. Why would companies in the U.S. want to put up with that kind of stuff?

Sounds like it was run by idiots, not sure how you place the blame on the government when everyone else is able to fill out rough ridin' paperwork

[CNS]

The environmental cost in the U.S. is ridic when compared to other countries. Environmental costs are a small reason why the jobs are leaving and probably not the main one, but I find it interesting.  I had a rather large manufacturing client who was fined into bankruptcy by the EPA for incomplete paperwork. Were they hurting the environment or people? No. They just didn't have some paper together like they should and weren't following the "law." I realize that this is a random example, but I don't know of any other country where a manufacturing company would close for the same infractions. Why would companies in the U.S. want to put up with that kind of stuff?

Shitty implementation of "the right idea" is the problem.  We can't just eff off because some developing country somewhere else is ok with doing it.  That leads to a complete crap show. 

[EMAWican]

The environmental cost in the U.S. is ridic when compared to other countries. Environmental costs are a small reason why the jobs are leaving and probably not the main one, but I find it interesting.  I had a rather large manufacturing client who was fined into bankruptcy by the EPA for incomplete paperwork. Were they hurting the environment or people? No. They just didn't have some paper together like they should and weren't following the "law." I realize that this is a random example, but I don't know of any other country where a manufacturing company would close for the same infractions. Why would companies in the U.S. want to put up with that kind of stuff?

Sounds like it was run by idiots, not sure how you place the blame on the government when everyone else is able to fill out rough ridin' paperwork

Laws are only as good as enforcement. This company was the unlucky of the 0.0001% that got inspected and got caught. At the time we didn't know a single company that was complying with that law.

[star seed 7]

But everyone else was speeding too!!!

[EMAWican]

The environmental cost in the U.S. is ridic when compared to other countries. Environmental costs are a small reason why the jobs are leaving and probably not the main one, but I find it interesting.  I had a rather large manufacturing client who was fined into bankruptcy by the EPA for incomplete paperwork. Were they hurting the environment or people? No. They just didn't have some paper together like they should and weren't following the "law." I realize that this is a random example, but I don't know of any other country where a manufacturing company would close for the same infractions. Why would companies in the U.S. want to put up with that kind of stuff?

Shitty implementation of "the right idea" is the problem.  We can't just eff off because some developing country somewhere else is ok with doing it.  That leads to a complete crap show.

I'm not saying we should piss on environmental issues. You bet your ass that manufacturing companies relocate because labor and environmental compliance costs are so much lower.

[CNS]

Well, yeah.  See my post a few posts up.

[Tobias]

trim was right

What happened when you posted this that made you come around?

it was more in response to steve dave's "he quit" comment than any personal change of heart or anything.  think that was right around his concession

[Canary]

Best part for me:

NO PUPPET! NO PUPPET! YOU'RE THE PUPPET! YOU'RE THE PUPPET!

That was the point that has best defined Trump to me throughout the entire campaign.  I spent a part of my life working with young children; that point in the debate brought that experience back to me with me literally laughing out loud.  What would he do with other world leaders in meetings and conflict?

[EMAWican]

But everyone else was speeding too!!!

I'd equate it to a sign saying: "Speed Limit 45 MPH*"

*Refer to section 40.67.47.8.3333.6 part b for additional requirements**
**If you are in a 3 axle or more vehicle refer to ***
***Speed limit is 30.5679 MPH for 3+ axle vehicles, unless manufactured on or before August 30, 2015. Refer to section A.567.533.6.3 (c) (d) (1) (i) Compliance of this speed limit will be determined by taking the weighted average of travel speed over a period of consecutive rolling averages over a period not to exceed 15 second increments. Records of this determined travel speed shall be maintained and kept for a minimum of 5 years.

[CNS]

Pretty much any world leader should want Don to win.  It would be the easiest thing in the world to flatter that ego and lead him.

I mean, you could just throw out  big nonsense words/phrases like Cyber Modulator, or Ergonomic Insulation Intensifier, then end with something about how you wouldn't dare dream of moving forward with out the approval of such an informed leader, who you secretly respect more than (insert other leader here) and yet we need to move fast to bigly ensure hydro-static acoustical ambivalence is optimal for us and not ISIS. 

Boom, he would agree to what you told him to agree to.