State of the State - case closed, money is bad for schools

[Kat Kid]

Someone smart tell me what charter schools are

There is no set definition, but generally people mean Publicly funded schools run by corporations that are given wide latitude to make their own policies and usually pay more than public schools while running for longer hours.

[star seed 7]

Pros/cons?

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Someone smart tell me what charter schools are

There is no set definition, but generally people mean Publicly funded schools run by corporations that are given wide latitude to make their own policies and usually pay more than public schools while running for longer hours.

I'm not sure as to relevance of the legal entity (although corporations are evil boogie men ), but you forgot to mention the optional religion part, which the religious right loves.

[CNS]

I don't know a lot about charter schools,  but built a building for one a while back that had a cool thing going.  By the time their  students grad they have an associates as well as a HS diploma.  In MO, though.

[wetwillie]

I don't know a lot about charter schools,  but built a building for one a while back that had a cool thing going.  By the time their  students grad they have an associates as well as a HS diploma.  In MO, though.

that is cool, alot of kids come out of highschool with at least a year if not more of college credit from regular public schools.  I think if you were ambitious and started taking AP classes as soon as available to you in high school you could probably graduate from a four year university like kstate 2 years after high school. 

[Kat Kid]

Someone smart tell me what charter schools are

There is no set definition, but generally people mean Publicly funded schools run by corporations that are given wide latitude to make their own policies and usually pay more than public schools while running for longer hours.

I'm not sure as to relevance of the legal entity (although corporations are evil boogie men ), but you forgot to mention the optional religion part, which the religious right loves.

Yeah I was being broad.  Some are run by non-profits, some are religious private schools (this is pretty rare), the new model is for national organizations like KIPP to run them (not sure if that is for-profit or non-profit and not really sure on their business model).  The entire thing is a stalking horse for the privatization of schools with educational companies buying out public schools.

[Kat Kid]

Pros/cons?

Pros- can absolutely improve upon the worst run schools.

Cons- many don't accept students with special needs or behavior problems so public schools that are competing with the charters become the holding pen for the rejects. 

Many educational initiatives are driven by business interests, this is a great example.  I would be wrong to question the motives of everyone in the "school reform" movement because there are lots of people with good ideas and lots of people that have dedicated their lives to this cause, but there are also lots of self-interested actors that see enormous profit potential in declaring schools as failures.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Don't they rely on the "voucher system"

[Stellarcat]

Don't they rely on the "voucher system"

No.  Vouchers are taxpayers money mainly used to send kids to private schools, which is ridiculous in my opinion.  Private schools aren't held accountable at all for what they teach.  Charter schools are public schools that aren't held to the same standards as the districts are...they have to meet the criteria stated in their charter instead.

If charter schools weren't big cash cows for the for-profit companies (and even for the non-profit companies via tax breaks), I might feel differently about them.  As a public school teacher, there are a lot of things that I wish were not part of our education system, the biggest being high stakes testing.   

The data on charter schools shows that as a whole, they don't really perform much better than public schools.  A clarification of an earlier post:  they have to take everybody or do a lottery for acceptance.  However, they can weed out the lower performing students in a multitude of ways whereas public schools have to accept and KEEP all students.

[CNS]

Don't they rely on the "voucher system"

No.  Vouchers are taxpayers money mainly used to send kids to private schools, which is ridiculous in my opinion.  Private schools aren't held accountable at all for what they teach.  Charter schools are public schools that aren't held to the same standards as the districts are...they have to meet the criteria stated in their charter instead.

If charter schools weren't big cash cows for the for-profit companies (and even for the non-profit companies via tax breaks), I might feel differently about them.  As a public school teacher, there are a lot of things that I wish were not part of our education system, the biggest being high stakes testing.   

The data on charter schools shows that as a whole, they don't really perform much better than public schools.  A clarification of an earlier post:  they have to take everybody or do a lottery for acceptance.  However, they can weed out the lower performing students in a multitude of ways whereas public schools have to accept and KEEP all students.

So if the state wanted this to become the norm, they could legislate against the whole weed out kids thing.  Also, making money isn't a bad thing.  If my kid was at a charter school, I would want that to be a financially successful school.  If you want the ppl who have better ideas to get involved, there needs to be profit. 

[Stellarcat]

Because teachers don't have good ideas? 

[Mr Bread]

I would imagine a lot of them don't. 

[CNS]

I hope that isn't what you got out of that.  My wife is a teacher and from that perspective, it doesn't seem to matter if teachers have good ideas or not.  It seems like many of those in control(principals and up) are not qualified to manage their way in to anything much different than what they did last year, let alone do anything drastically different.  My wife's district may be an outlier, but when looking into decisions made at the highest level, you have to leave reason at the door. 

I am not for charters, nor against them.  Don't know enough about them.  What I do know is that often really good ideas come from ppl that have fresh perspective. 

[Stellarcat]

Scenario A:  Mrs. CNS gets fed up with the public school system and decides to start a charter school.  Because she is a teacher and knows a lot about child development, she structures her school appropriately and frees the kids from the pressures of testing, etc.  She makes a good profit and the kids benefit from her passion for teaching.  She pays her teachers appropriately and supports them by making sure that they have the materials that they need.

Scenario B:  Large for-profit charter school company rakes in big bucks.  The teacher turnover rate is really high because the pay isn't great and they are expected to be available to students and parents almost constantly.  Therefore, the teachers are pretty inexperienced because they either burnout or move on.   

I'm totally fine with scenario A.  Unfortunately, I think that those types of charters are the exception, not the norm. 

[Stellarcat]

I would imagine a lot of them don't.

Seriously?

[CNS]

Scenario A:  Mrs. CNS gets fed up with the public school system and decides to start a charter school.  Because she is a teacher and knows a lot about child development, she structures her school appropriately and frees the kids from the pressures of testing, etc.  She makes a good profit and the kids benefit from her passion for teaching.  She pays her teachers appropriately and supports them by making sure that they have the materials that they need.

Scenario B:  Large for-profit charter school company rakes in big bucks.  The teacher turnover rate is really high because the pay isn't great and they are expected to be available to students and parents almost constantly.  Therefore, the teachers are pretty inexperienced because they either burnout or move on.   

I'm totally fine with scenario A.  Unfortunately, I think that those types of charters are the exception, not the norm.

Scenario B is close to what is happening now in the lack of support for teachers and expectation of availability.  The teachers aren't run off, but they are worn down into not caring and being mediocre.  The ones that are passionate run themselves off because of the bullshit they have to deal with in the current system. 

[michigancat]

It's ridiculous to assume that good ideas only come when profit is a motivator.

[CNS]

It's ridiculous to assume that good ideas only come when profit is a motivator.

No one is saying that. 

[michigancat]

It's ridiculous to assume that good ideas only come when profit is a motivator.

No one is saying that.

Yeah, I read your post incorrectly. However, I wouldn't expect many good new ideas to come from those whose motive is profit.

[Cartierfor3]

It's ridiculous to assume that good ideas only come when profit is a motivator.

No one is saying that.

Yeah, I read your post incorrectly. However, I wouldn't expect many good new ideas to come from those whose motive is profit.

in general or just in education?

[michigancat]

It's ridiculous to assume that good ideas only come when profit is a motivator.

No one is saying that.

Yeah, I read your post incorrectly. However, I wouldn't expect many good new ideas to come from those whose motive is profit.

in general or just in education?

specifically education.

[CNS]

It's ridiculous to assume that good ideas only come when profit is a motivator.

No one is saying that.

Yeah, I read your post incorrectly. However, I wouldn't expect many good new ideas to come from those whose motive is profit.

in general or just in education?

specifically education.

What incentive is there to change then?

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

It's ridiculous to assume that good ideas only come when profit is a motivator.

No one is saying that.

Yeah, I read your post incorrectly. However, I wouldn't expect many good new ideas to come from those whose motive is profit.

in general or just in education?

specifically education.

This is what I like to call altruistic delusion.

[michigancat]

It's ridiculous to assume that good ideas only come when profit is a motivator.

No one is saying that.

Yeah, I read your post incorrectly. However, I wouldn't expect many good new ideas to come from those whose motive is profit.

in general or just in education?

specifically education.

What incentive is there to change then?

Are you serious? Your wife is a teacher and you can't understand how or why someone could have good ideas and work their hardest without profit as a motivator?

[CNS]

It's ridiculous to assume that good ideas only come when profit is a motivator.

No one is saying that.

Yeah, I read your post incorrectly. However, I wouldn't expect many good new ideas to come from those whose motive is profit.

in general or just in education?

specifically education.

What incentive is there to change then?

Are you serious? Your wife is a teacher and you can't understand how or why someone could have good ideas and work their hardest without profit as a motivator?

We are discussing more than an individual teacher here.  That should be plain.