excellent meltdown

[EllToPay]

best meltdown in quite a while. and yet we won.

can't imagine what the meltdown will be like after a 20+ loss saturday. actually looking forward to it.

[WillieWannabe]

i give it one more game like this and we get some fire frank threads 

[JTKSU]

i give it one more game like this and we get some fire frank threads 

QFT.  The depth of LBBIQ on this board is astounding.

[ksu_FAN]

i give it one more game like this and we get some fire frank threads 

QFT.  The depth of LBBIQ on this board is astounding.

Meh.  Often (often) a lot of the guys around here like to channel their inner-Whitlock and run with it.  One of the reasons this board is the best.  JMHO.

[pissclams]

i give it one more game like this and we get some fire frank threads 

QFT.  The depth of LBBIQ on this board is astounding.

Meh.  Often (often) a lot of the guys around here like to channel their inner-Whitlock and run with it.  One of the reasons this board is the best.  JMHO.

it is a hell of a lot easier to deal with that way, imo.
i am concerned but we did win despite our best efforts not to.

what i do find odd is the fact that this board, the OOD, has gone from criticizing everything to criticizing nothing, all in an effort to display more HBBIQ then the next guy.  there isn't one thread on here talking what lead to another poor performance out of this team, instead we've got a collection of ku fans saying we suck, and K-State fans telling each other they have LBBIQ.  the reality is that there's a lot of truth in both statements.

 

[ksu_FAN]

i give it one more game like this and we get some fire frank threads 

QFT.  The depth of LBBIQ on this board is astounding.

Meh.  Often (often) a lot of the guys around here like to channel their inner-Whitlock and run with it.  One of the reasons this board is the best.  JMHO.

it is a hell of a lot easier to deal with that way, imo.
i am concerned but we did win despite our best efforts not to.

what i do find odd is the fact that this board, the OOD, has gone from criticizing everything to criticizing nothing, all in an effort to display more HBBIQ then the next guy.  there isn't one thread on here talking what lead to another poor performance out of this team, instead we've got a collection of ku fans saying we suck, and K-State fans telling each other they have LBBIQ.  the reality is that there's a lot of truth in both statements.

 

True on all accounts. 

There is no doubt we aren't very good right now and despite his best efforts to wake up his team last night, we did nothing that was close to what regular "Frank-ball" should look like.  Terrible defense, terrible offensive rebounding, terrible effort (even much of the time by the guys we put in to wake up the other guys), etc.

It was pretty clear to me that we spent no time prepping for this game (which we shouldn't have to), but there is no excuse for a lack of any of the things we expect Frank's teams to display.  The entire team seemed to take a flyer on the game and they are all looking toward the 4 game stretch we have coming up.  I guess we'll see how that works out.

[chum1]

I don't care how we play against FHSU.  It's meaningless.  Stupid meltdown.

[pissclams]

I don't care how we play against FHSU.  It's meaningless.  Stupid meltdown.

the fact is that we've played similar games against the majority of our opponents, it's not just FHSU.
we're 7 games into the season and don't understand how to play back door defense.   

[chum1]

we're 7 games into the season and don't understand how to play back door defense.   

We had that meltdown three years ago.  Nothing's changed.  Now, a meltdown about how nothing has changed over the course of three years is one I could get behind.

[michigancat]

I agree we've looked sh*tty most games, I'm just not worried about it...yet.

Long season, and I'm a big picture guy, ya know?.

[steve dave]

I don't care how we play against FHSU.  It's meaningless.  Stupid meltdown.

the fact is that we've played similar games against the majority of our opponents, it's not just FHSU.
we're 7 games into the season and don't understand how to play back door defense.   

and yet we're 6-1

[pissclams]

we're 7 games into the season and don't understand how to play back door defense.   

We had that meltdown three years ago.  Nothing's changed.  Now, a meltdown about how nothing has changed over the course of three years is one I could get behind.

went that direction last night when i began with the Huggins/Martin connection.  their teams suffer from a similar problem.  they both play really fracking dumb.

[ksu_FAN]

went that direction last night when i began with the Huggins/Martin connection.  their teams suffer from a similar problem.  they both play really fracking dumb.

Martin's coaching definately had a very heavy influence from Huggs.

Given that, and watching the last 3 years of K-State basketball, I'm pretty sure the team will get better.  Probably much better.  And they can get better rather quickly, depending on how things go the rest of the week.  I'm not in any panic mode, I fully expect us (at worst) to split the next 4 games, but I can understand reasons for concern.

[michigancat]

we're 7 games into the season and don't understand how to play back door defense.   

We had that meltdown three years ago.  Nothing's changed.  Now, a meltdown about how nothing has changed over the course of three years is one I could get behind.

went that direction last night when i began with the Huggins/Martin connection.  their teams suffer from a similar problem.  they both play really fracking dumb.

Agree, they look like they're playing dumb, but their offensive and defensive numbers generally are pretty good.  It's weird.

[pissclams]

I agree we've looked sh*tty most games, I'm just not worried about it...yet.

Long season, and I'm a big picture guy, ya know?.

then look at the big picture.  our team suffers from the same things it has for the past 3 seasons.   nothing has changed and we'll be in the same place at the end of february that we were last february.

inability to understand back door defense
inability to capitalize in the paint/terrible floor spacing
martin's idiotic subbing
offense 100% relies on streaky and undersized 3 pt shooters

same crap that went on when Huggins was here

went that direction last night when i began with the Huggins/Martin connection.  their teams suffer from a similar problem.  they both play really fracking dumb.

Martin's coaching definately had a very heavy influence from Huggs.

Given that, and watching the last 3 years of K-State basketball, I'm pretty sure the team will get better.  Probably much better.  And they can get better rather quickly, depending on how things go the rest of the week.  I'm not in any panic mode, I fully expect us (at worst) to split the next 4 games, but I can understand reasons for concern.

i'm sure we'll get better too, we always have.  but to end up at the end of the season better than where we keep ending up (pretty good but not great), we have to have a higher starting point.  this team is experienced enough to understand the basics, like back door defense, how not to overcommit, and how to box out.  the simple things like a high low offense, which ran great w/ Henriquez.  instead, merriweather is getting minutes again, etc.

[michigancat]

I agree we've looked sh*tty most games, I'm just not worried about it...yet.

Long season, and I'm a big picture guy, ya know?.

then look at the big picture.  our team suffers from the same things it has for the past 3 seasons.   nothing has changed and we'll be in the same place at the end of february that we were last february.

inability to understand back door defense
inability to capitalize in the paint/terrible floor spacing
martin's idiotic subbing
offense 100% relies on streaky and undersized 3 pt shooters

same crap that went on when Huggins was here

I don't disagree w/ anything you said, but that doesn't change the fact that their system works in the long run.

[ksu_FAN]

i'm sure we'll get better too, we always have.  but to end up at the end of the season better than where we keep ending up (pretty good but not great), we have to have a higher starting point.  this team is experienced enough to understand the basics, like back door defense, how not to overcommit, and how to box out.  the simple things like a high low offense, which ran great w/ Henriquez.  instead, merriweather is getting minutes again, etc.

Good points.  

And our best high-lows are going to come with our best bigs, namely Hen-Rob and Kelly on the floor together.  And a little with Judge and Samuels.  Those guys seem to work pretty decent together.  By not having them on the floor last night any hope of that was basically taken away, and we likely could've scored a ton on that stuff against Hays.  I'll give a pass for Hen-Rob b/c he was sick, but IMO he should've picked a point during the 2nd half and gave Kelly/Judge a 5 minute stretch together or something.  But I suppose if he has to prove a point this was a good game to do it.

Back door D, again, that comes down to personnel.  So far our back door plan has been to have Hen-Rob, Kelly, or Judge in the paint to block a shot if someone got behind us and last night that wasn't an option.  Plus, FHSU did another one of those 4 or 5 out deals and took advantage of the fact that we are going to pressure at all spots on the floor once you cross half-court.

[catzacker]

I agree we've looked sh*tty most games, I'm just not worried about it...yet.

Long season, and I'm a big picture guy, ya know?.

then look at the big picture.  our team suffers from the same things it has for the past 3 seasons.   nothing has changed and we'll be in the same place at the end of february that we were last february.

inability to understand back door defense
inability to capitalize in the paint/terrible floor spacing
martin's idiotic subbing
offense 100% relies on streaky and undersized 3 pt shooters

same crap that went on when Huggins was here

this.  it's something that should be worriesome right now.  it's not just one game against FHS...it's not the 7 games we've played this year....it's the past 3 years which are almost identical to this one.  We have 4 games to prove this wrong or at least show that we're moving in a different direction, otherwise this is who Frank/this program are and will always be.  We'll muddle through the non-con, prolly get run a few games in conference, then somehow turn it on when our guards get hot, then when they don't get hot we'll get beat then cry at the end of the year because we're NIT bound again.  

[1/64th]

In regards to subbing during games.  First of all, I know that he was sending a message and that the opp. was FHSU and all that crap.  But if you look at Frank Martin's subbing history, he is HORRIBLE.  It seems that whenever we get a good combo in that is clicking he puts in DKent, or CMerr, or VOje.  He yanked Pullen near the end of the game last night while JPull was shooting free throws.  On TV you could see Pullen look over and ask why he was coming out.  I'm pretty sure it was soon after his 8 pt burst.  Seriously, the team needs to build chemistry and you can't do that with fracking CMerr and VOje hogging precious minutes. 

Anyway back to subbing flaws.  There is no flow to his subbing.  I think a lot of it is emotional.  SOmeone screws up once and he yanks them.  I'm cool with sending a message using PT and all this but c'mon.   

[pissclams]

I don't disagree w/ anything you said, but that doesn't change the fact that their system works in the long run.

if you're good with 1st round NIT exits, then yes, it works for you.

I'll give a pass for Hen-Rob b/c he was sick, but IMO he should've picked a point during the 2nd half and gave Kelly/Judge a 5 minute stretch together or something.  But I suppose if he has to prove a point this was a good game to do it.

100% agree.  Frank's defense doesn't lead to the transition offense his teams need.  So, he needs to quit yanking his best offensive players if they screw up a defense assignment, if for no other reason than to give the guys floor time together to figure out how the hell to score and what the hell they're supposed to be doing.

Back door D, again, that comes down to personnel.  So far our back door plan has been to have Hen-Rob, Kelly, or Judge in the paint to block a shot if someone got behind us and last night that wasn't an option.  Plus, FHSU did another one of those 4 or 5 out deals and took advantage of the fact that we are going to pressure at all spots on the floor once you cross half-court.

there is no amount of coaching strategy that FHSU should be able to implement that put us in the position we were in last night.  if what you're describing is the case, then Martin got out coached by a middle of the road D2 team/guy.

long run i'm sure the team will improve, I just had higher expectations for an experienced and talented team such as we have.

[ksu_FAN]

there is no amount of coaching strategy that FHSU should be able to implement that put us in the position we were in last night.  if what you're describing is the case, then Martin got out coached by a middle of the road D2 team/guy.

long run i'm sure the team will improve, I just had higher expectations for an experienced and talented team such as we have.

I'm just saying we have not done well against any team that throws out these perimeter based offenses that have 4 or 5 guys on the perimeter.  And that's going to be even more inflated when you take away 3 of the guys we have had in to protect the lane most of the time this year.  Big difference between an offense throwing it in and having shots challenged by Kelly and Hen-Rob to throwing it in and having shots challenged by Oj and Energy (or even Samuels).  Without our 3 athletic bigs, the defense that Frank has been trying to employ all year simply won't work very well, even against Hays, and that's why we gave up such pathetic offensive numbers.

[michigancat]

I don't disagree w/ anything you said, but that doesn't change the fact that their system works in the long run.

if you're good with 1st round NIT exits, then yes, it works for you.

[catzacker]

Franks fracking himself, imo.  He has been since he talked about "protecting the rim".  That's great and all, love me some blocked shots, but it's put us in terrible positions defensively which has led to our poor defensive rebounds, imo.  It's not that diffcult to get rebounds against us...Denis isn't going to box anyone out because once the shot goes up he's looking to get an outlet pass, we'll throw 2 guys to block the shot of whomever beat our guard off the dribble, so that's Denis, the guard getting beat, and two bigs who aren't rebounding....so WTF did Frank expect?  He's the one that put the emphasis on blocking shots.  

[michigancat]

Franks fracking himself, imo.  He has been since he talked about "protecting the rim".  That's great and all, love me some blocked shots, but it's put us in terrible positions defensively which has led to our poor defensive rebounds, imo.  It's not that diffcult to get rebounds against us...Denis isn't going to box anyone out because once the shot goes up he's looking to get an outlet pass, we'll throw 2 guys to block the shot of whomever beat our guard off the dribble, so that's Denis, the guard getting beat, and two bigs who aren't rebounding....so WTF did Frank expect?  He's the one that put the emphasis on blocking shots. 

Help defense from the bigs is probably co #1 for what Frank is pissed about (along with them being FP's).

I hope he gets a grainy video of the team practicing in football pads or something else gimmicky a la Eddie Sutton that will be shown on our espn games.

[WillieWannabe]

Franks fracking himself, imo.  He has been since he talked about "protecting the rim".  That's great and all, love me some blocked shots, but it's put us in terrible positions defensively which has led to our poor defensive rebounds, imo.  It's not that diffcult to get rebounds against us...Denis isn't going to box anyone out because once the shot goes up he's looking to get an outlet pass, we'll throw 2 guys to block the shot of whomever beat our guard off the dribble, so that's Denis, the guard getting beat, and two bigs who aren't rebounding....so WTF did Frank expect?  He's the one that put the emphasis on blocking shots.  

http://ow.ly/HLH7

Not sure he put the emphasis on blocking shots, unless you have seen a practice or quote somewhere i haven't.

[catzacker]

Franks fracking himself, imo.  He has been since he talked about "protecting the rim".  That's great and all, love me some blocked shots, but it's put us in terrible positions defensively which has led to our poor defensive rebounds, imo.  It's not that diffcult to get rebounds against us...Denis isn't going to box anyone out because once the shot goes up he's looking to get an outlet pass, we'll throw 2 guys to block the shot of whomever beat our guard off the dribble, so that's Denis, the guard getting beat, and two bigs who aren't rebounding....so WTF did Frank expect?  He's the one that put the emphasis on blocking shots.  

http://ow.ly/HLH7

Not sure he put the emphasis on blocking shots, unless you have seen a practice or quote somewhere i haven't.

Haven't been to practice, I just read newspapers and stuff.  I'm too lazy to go back and link the various articles prior to the start of the season which talked about this.  Here's one I quickly found.  He's also talked about it in the interviews he's done on radio as well.

http://cjonline.com/sports/basketball/2009-10-29/ksus_kelly_brings_new_york_flair

First and foremost, K-State is asking Kelly to be a post player. Last year's team lacked reliable scoring options in the frontcourt, and coach Frank Martin felt the Wildcats struggled to protect the rim.

[ksu_FAN]

On rebounding; I know its been a popular topic around here, but IMO the lack of rebounding concern has been a bit overblown.  Granted, it hasn't been good and we've allowed opponents an OR% of 35%, which is not good.  But against by far our best 3 opponents that rate was about 31%, which is typical of what we've seen that last 3 seasons, and I think it will probably work out to be around 31-33% which we can win with.  

To me what we really need to work on is position on defense, ie. not fouling and allowing so many FTs attempts by opponents.  And we need to work on rotations on the perimeter as allowing teams to shoot 37% from 3 is terrible.  Other than that, I see what we are doing defensively and I think we will get better.

As I said last week, I'm far more concerned about the issues we are having on offense, namely against zones and getting a maximum out of our post players.  

[mocat]

http://ow.ly/HLH7

The curious case of Dominique Sutton

lol

[pissclams]

I don't disagree w/ anything you said, but that doesn't change the fact that their system works in the long run.

if you're good with 1st round NIT exits, then yes, it works for you.

how do you judge their system to say that it works in the long run?

[pwrcat1]

I'm not gonna start worrying until these next four games are over with.
 We gotta stop following players on defense and cut these guys off before they get to the basket.  We're not preventing anything and are just reacting to what the offense is doing. Until we change that our guys are gonna be one step behind staring at a, less talented, guard's ass while he scores an easy back door lay up.