This Team is not being coached well

[ksu_FAN]

As bad as the offense is I think the biggest problem is on D.  Over and over high major teams shoot 50 plus percent on us.  We're over aggressive and extend our defense way to far on the floor which spreads us out.   IT's either a lay up in the lane or a wide open 3 and it's been happening all year going back to the Kentucky game.  I mean Kentucky shot like 70% against us or something stupid like that.  Every team we've played at some point has started dialing stuff up to take advantage of our blind aggression.  Oregon is awful I mean flat awful and they started back dooring us like crazy in the second half.

Frank always talks about the way he wants to guard and how it's takes longer to learn but at some point it just gets stupid.  Either his players are not good enough for system, he's not coaching the system well enough, or the system just plain doens't work.  My guess is it's a combination of all three things; his system requires really good players we don't have, he does a poor job of coaching and teaching it, and it's not the best system to defend teams that have big 12 level talent.  

Frank is not a "great coach".  No doubt.  They're rare.

And I agree with most of this assessment, definately doesn't have the complete roster to defend the way he wants and now teams are pretty much dicing us up.  So he has a choice; go to some half court based defense with some ball pressure but mainly defend the paint man (like Wooly essentually) or continue to try to coach like he believes.  Its pretty clear Frank is choosing to sink or swim with what he believes and fortunately for him he's got some guys coming to buy him time.  We'll see if it works long term, but clearly its going to be a long one this year.  I'll give him some time.

[steve dave]

Would be nice to have another great coach someday -- the kind that can lead us to the Final Four.  Oh well.

What do you mean "another"?  Huggins is by far the best we've had in my lifetime and that was a very special situation that lasted one year.  Hartman never made a final 4.  Kruger never made a final 4.  Altman (55% winning percentage) and everyone after him until Hugs sucked balls.  Does your time machine go back to Winter?

[jthutch]

Good lord folks, Frank is in only his 2nd year as a major division 1 college coach.  And yes I don't think he is doing the greatest job at gameplanning or changing what's not working but there has to be a learning curve and last year gets thrown out due to the Beasley/Walker factor.  Any retard on a message board could win games with those guys on the floor.  Martin is learning and I hope in the next 2-3 years will know what to do with a bunch of average players when that situation comes around. 

I can think of a perfect example of where coaching is not the whole problem.  last night Celmente jumps into the air at the top of the arch and throws a rocket to the ankles of pullen who is 3 ft away.  Now in all the camps and coaches I have been to or around none have ever shown me that pass so I'm assuming Clemente did this on his own.  This is only one example of things I'm sure Martin did not teach these players, and by the look on his face after such plays only further solidifies my feeling on the subject.

On a good note we held our turn overs down last night.   Baylor is just a lot better then us!

[dubnation]

when I say coaching is the problem I mean when what you want to do is not working what do you do to adapt to the team your playing because pressing a team with 4 ballhandlers is rather dumb, doubling down off of the hottest shooter in the game is dumb, everyone did it so that had to be coaching what they was told to do, and your best guard and scorer is not heavily involved in the offense plays aren't ran for him until the clock runs down under 10sec. if a team is pick and rolling you to death and getting to the basket at will and you don't tell the team to jump the screen or hedge the dribbler but in stead you do the same thing the whole game that wasn't working thats coaching. believe me I can go on. and who ever said it is only 5 coaches that can coach needs to watch other teams play and watch there schemes and see changes during the game and then come back to the board and apologize

[michigancat]

when I say coaching is the problem I mean when what you want to do is not working what do you do to adapt to the team your playing because pressing a team with 4 ballhandlers is rather dumb, doubling down off of the hottest shooter in the game is dumb, everyone did it so that had to be coaching what they was told to do, and your best guard and scorer is not heavily involved in the offense plays aren't ran for him until the clock runs down under 10sec. if a team is pick and rolling you to death and getting to the basket at will and you don't tell the team to jump the screen or hedge the dribbler but in stead you do the same thing the whole game that wasn't working thats coaching. believe me I can go on. and who ever said it is only 5 coaches that can coach needs to watch other teams play and watch there schemes and see changes during the game and then come back to the board and apologize

He defended the pick and roll multiple ways...going under the pick, hedging, and trapping.  He also tried zone.

[ksu_FAN]

when I say coaching is the problem I mean when what you want to do is not working what do you do to adapt to the team your playing because pressing a team with 4 ballhandlers is rather dumb, doubling down off of the hottest shooter in the game is dumb, everyone did it so that had to be coaching what they was told to do, and your best guard and scorer is not heavily involved in the offense plays aren't ran for him until the clock runs down under 10sec. if a team is pick and rolling you to death and getting to the basket at will and you don't tell the team to jump the screen or hedge the dribbler but in stead you do the same thing the whole game that wasn't working thats coaching. believe me I can go on. and who ever said it is only 5 coaches that can coach needs to watch other teams play and watch there schemes and see changes during the game and then come back to the board and apologize

Relative or former coach of Jake?

And granted you make some decent points about the coaching issues, but are the players ever at fault?  At least partially?  I've always been of the opinion that the fault lies somewhere in the middle between coaches and players.

[sys]

doubling down off of the hottest shooter in the game is dumb, everyone did it.

pretty sure that not a single 3 dunn got was off his man doubling down.  if there was, it was only once.


he got open off late rotations, poor rotations, in the zone when samuels got caught too far down, out of the broken press and off broken plays/off. boards.  pretty much every way except having his man double down.

[sys]

I think it's much simpler than that.  Teams w/ good players, or teams w/ bad players that run a "princeton" offense, are "well coached" in the eyes of the (dumb) fans.

fans like motion offenses and princeton type sets.  they love open posts and backdoors.  basically, they like movement and pretty.

[steve dave]

I think it's much simpler than that.  Teams w/ good players, or teams w/ bad players that run a "princeton" offense, are "well coached" in the eyes of the (dumb) fans.

fans like motion offenses and princeton type sets.  they love open posts and backdoors.  basically, they like movement and pretty.

It helps LBBIQ types know something is happening. 

[michigancat]

doubling down off of the hottest shooter in the game is dumb, everyone did it.

pretty sure that not a single 3 dunn got was off his man doubling down.  if there was, it was only once.


he got open off late rotations, poor rotations, in the zone when samuels got caught too far down, out of the broken press and off broken plays/off. boards.  pretty much every way except having his man double down.

He got a couple as a result of trapping the pick n roll.  but that was rotations, like you said.

[KSU4ME]

One more thing...

We have to remember the perception of "well coached" is going to vary a bunch depending on your background.  And most of that will come from your experience with coaches (if you even played), and otherwise you are probably just pulling stuff you heard from Vitale, etc.  But the style you played, the things they emphasized, and whether or not they were even a good coach themselves will dictate what you think is "good coaching".  Granted, there are certain fundamentals that will be pretty standard, but the scheme, style, and philosophy issues won't be.  I think for example many don't buy Wooly's uptempo style b/c most folks didn't play that way "when they played".  Or they played in a different uptempo style.  Or how a coach attacks pressure or inbounds plays, etc.  There are many, many successful ways to do this and most of the successful folks (as coaches) did it with better players than their opponents.

This isn't meant to be a grand defense of Wooly, there are probably things he could do better, but I think its important to remember as we read (and will read more of) these "Wooly sucks as a coach" posts.  And really in any comments you read on a message board.  Just b/c you played or were taught a certain way doesn't make it the "right way" to play or coach.

Did you recycle that?

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

[fatty fat fat]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

tells you nothing. we don't have players to execute the things needed to have a positive a-to ratio.

[jthutch]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

I disagree with that statment.  Martin is not out there dribbling off of his foot and throwing rocket passes to the ankles of fellow teammates.

[KSU4ME]

Last three games:

Baylor:
Pullen 2 of 8
Clemente 7 of 19
Brown 0 fer 1


Nebraska:
Pullen 1 of 7
Clemente 5 of 14
Brown 1 of 1


Kansas:
Pullen 5 of 15
Clemente 3 of 13
Brown 4 of 10


I'm SHOCKED the assist numbers sucked.

[michigancat]

Yeah, it's really hard to have more assists than turnovers when you have more turnovers than field goal makes.  It's practically impossible.

[dubnation]

Im not a friens or coach im a fan and you look at any team and you see there best players put i situations they can succeed at. show me a play that has been ran to get your guards open shots other then one on one drive and dishes thats not coaching thats sitting back watching aau ball when you have big men that can score you play sf and sg on wings pf and C on the blocks and when you are guard heavy and not post presence you run motion to get driving lanes for shots or passing lanes look at duke thats the type of movement we need we may not get their results all the time but the shots we get would be a lot better. hell you have kent anderson and colon they wouldn't see the court for any other big 12 team so why we running the same plays we did for beasley and walker. I don't hate frank but I think he is stubborn and needs to look into changing some things. everyone waiting for next year the coaching will be the same but the talent will be better then the coach so some of his dumb decisions will be over looked. and he has been here two years and still hasnt set his rotation we are not deep so we need our best players out there to compete

[doom]

As bad as the offense is I think the biggest problem is on D.  Over and over high major teams shoot 50 plus percent on us.  We're over aggressive and extend our defense way to far on the floor which spreads us out.   IT's either a lay up in the lane or a wide open 3 and it's been happening all year going back to the Kentucky game.  I mean Kentucky shot like 70% against us or something stupid like that.  Every team we've played at some point has started dialing stuff up to take advantage of our blind aggression.  Oregon is awful I mean flat awful and they started back dooring us like crazy in the second half.

Frank always talks about the way he wants to guard and how it's takes longer to learn but at some point it just gets stupid.  Either his players are not good enough for system, he's not coaching the system well enough, or the system just plain doens't work.  My guess is it's a combination of all three things; his system requires really good players we don't have, he does a poor job of coaching and teaching it, and it's not the best system to defend teams that have big 12 level talent.  

Frank is not a "great coach".  No doubt.  They're rare.

And I agree with most of this assessment, definately doesn't have the complete roster to defend the way he wants and now teams are pretty much dicing us up.  So he has a choice; go to some half court based defense with some ball pressure but mainly defend the paint man (like Wooly essentually) or continue to try to coach like he believes.  Its pretty clear Frank is choosing to sink or swim with what he believes and fortunately for him he's got some guys coming to buy him time.  We'll see if it works long term, but clearly its going to be a long one this year.  I'll give him some time.

I agree with your assessment.  And I think Frank plays a lot of games with a mind on the future and what his teams will need to do rather than what they need right now.  Kind of like how we complained about sub patterns last year or who got minutes or who sat, but all of those decisions seemed like they were more for what was on the horizon.  I wish they'd had a little more results, but this season is kind of a wash right now anyway. 

[ksu_FAN]

As bad as the offense is I think the biggest problem is on D.  Over and over high major teams shoot 50 plus percent on us.  We're over aggressive and extend our defense way to far on the floor which spreads us out.   IT's either a lay up in the lane or a wide open 3 and it's been happening all year going back to the Kentucky game.  I mean Kentucky shot like 70% against us or something stupid like that.  Every team we've played at some point has started dialing stuff up to take advantage of our blind aggression.  Oregon is awful I mean flat awful and they started back dooring us like crazy in the second half.

Frank always talks about the way he wants to guard and how it's takes longer to learn but at some point it just gets stupid.  Either his players are not good enough for system, he's not coaching the system well enough, or the system just plain doens't work.  My guess is it's a combination of all three things; his system requires really good players we don't have, he does a poor job of coaching and teaching it, and it's not the best system to defend teams that have big 12 level talent.  

Frank is not a "great coach".  No doubt.  They're rare.

And I agree with most of this assessment, definately doesn't have the complete roster to defend the way he wants and now teams are pretty much dicing us up.  So he has a choice; go to some half court based defense with some ball pressure but mainly defend the paint man (like Wooly essentually) or continue to try to coach like he believes.  Its pretty clear Frank is choosing to sink or swim with what he believes and fortunately for him he's got some guys coming to buy him time.  We'll see if it works long term, but clearly its going to be a long one this year.  I'll give him some time.

I agree with your assessment.  And I think Frank plays a lot of games with a mind on the future and what his teams will need to do rather than what they need right now.  Kind of like how we complained about sub patterns last year or who got minutes or who sat, but all of those decisions seemed like they were more for what was on the horizon.  I wish they'd had a little more results, but this season is kind of a wash right now anyway. 

Its just a weird situation with Frank.  In some ways this is sort of like his first year and he has to battle whether to fit the players to his system or fit his system to the players.  Last year you just fit everything to Beasley and to a lesser extent Walker, but this year its different.  So the question becomes is he inept or is he "getting worse to get better" and trying to make guys fit a system that doesn't fit their skills.

[phagallenblowsballs]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

I disagree with that statment.  Martin is not out there dribbling off of his foot and throwing rocket passes to the ankles of fellow teammates.

Who recruited and brought DC and JP to Kstate you dumb f***?

Jesus this fanbase can make more f'n excuses than an out of work black person.

This is starting to remind me of the Princetards making "excuses" for the teams piss poor performance.

When its all said and done (after we finish 3-13) the blame will fall soley on FrackFaceFrank.

[steve dave]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

I disagree with that statment.  Martin is not out there dribbling off of his foot and throwing rocket passes to the ankles of fellow teammates.

Who recruited and brought DC and JP to Kstate you dumb f***?

Jesus this fanbase can make more f'n excuses than an out of work black person.

This is starting to remind me of the Princetards making "excuses" for the teams piss poor performance.

When its all said and done (after we finish 3-13) the blame will fall soley on FrackFaceFrank.

love reading this retards posts    so angry and stupid 

[Rick Daris]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

I disagree with that statment.  Martin is not out there dribbling off of his foot and throwing rocket passes to the ankles of fellow teammates.

Who recruited and brought DC and JP to Kstate you dumb f***?

Jesus this fanbase can make more f'n excuses than an out of work black person.

This is starting to remind me of the Princetards making "excuses" for the teams piss poor performance.

When its all said and done (after we finish 3-13) the blame will fall soley on FrackFaceFrank.

opcat?

[ksu_FAN]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

I disagree with that statment.  Martin is not out there dribbling off of his foot and throwing rocket passes to the ankles of fellow teammates.

Who recruited and brought DC and JP to Kstate you dumb f***?

Jesus this fanbase can make more f'n excuses than an out of work black person.

This is starting to remind me of the Princetards making "excuses" for the teams piss poor performance.

When its all said and done (after we finish 3-13) the blame will fall soley on FrackFaceFrank.

When you say crap like this do you really expect any fan to take you seriously.  I hope for your sake that you are someone's bad sock.

[phagallenblowsballs]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

I disagree with that statment.  Martin is not out there dribbling off of his foot and throwing rocket passes to the ankles of fellow teammates.

Who recruited and brought DC and JP to Kstate you dumb f***?

Jesus this fanbase can make more f'n excuses than an out of work black person.

This is starting to remind me of the Princetards making "excuses" for the teams piss poor performance.

When its all said and done (after we finish 3-13) the blame will fall soley on FrackFaceFrank.

love reading this retards posts    so angry and stupid 

Steve, if you wanna talk about stupid, how about your classic preseason bball prediction.

What was it again?

Oh, thats right, 12-4 conf. followed by a NCAA birth.

Next

[phagallenblowsballs]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

I disagree with that statment.  Martin is not out there dribbling off of his foot and throwing rocket passes to the ankles of fellow teammates.

Who recruited and brought DC and JP to Kstate you dumb f***?

Jesus this fanbase can make more f'n excuses than an out of work black person.

This is starting to remind me of the Princetards making "excuses" for the teams piss poor performance.

When its all said and done (after we finish 3-13) the blame will fall soley on FrackFaceFrank.

When you say crap like this do you really expect any fan to take you seriously.  I hope for your sake that you are someone's bad sock.

Nope, no sock here.  Just a ksu alumn that thinks Frank is so far in over his head.  Just like Prince.

Its a major gamble when you hire inexperienced coaches like Frank.  Hell even Prince had more experience than Frank

[ksu_FAN]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

I disagree with that statment.  Martin is not out there dribbling off of his foot and throwing rocket passes to the ankles of fellow teammates.

Who recruited and brought DC and JP to Kstate you dumb f***?

Jesus this fanbase can make more f'n excuses than an out of work black person.

This is starting to remind me of the Princetards making "excuses" for the teams piss poor performance.

When its all said and done (after we finish 3-13) the blame will fall soley on FrackFaceFrank.

When you say crap like this do you really expect any fan to take you seriously.  I hope for your sake that you are someone's bad sock.

Nope, no sock here.  Just a ksu alumn that thinks Frank is so far in over his head.  Just like Prince.

Its a major gamble when you hire inexperienced coaches like Frank.  Hell even Prince had more experience than Frank

I suppose I can handle that.  Just say that if that's your opinion; your need to reference race in nearly half your posts is dumb. 

And Prince didn't have 'Te.  The discussions about Frank must always have 'Te tied to them.  The two go together.

[jthutch]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

I disagree with that statment.  Martin is not out there dribbling off of his foot and throwing rocket passes to the ankles of fellow teammates.

Who recruited and brought DC and JP to Kstate you dumb f***?

Jesus this fanbase can make more f'n excuses than an out of work black person.

This is starting to remind me of the Princetards making "excuses" for the teams piss poor performance.

When its all said and done (after we finish 3-13) the blame will fall soley on FrackFaceFrank.

When you say crap like this do you really expect any fan to take you seriously.  I hope for your sake that you are someone's bad sock.

Nope, no sock here.  Just a ksu alumn that thinks Frank is so far in over his head.  Just like Prince.

Its a major gamble when you hire inexperienced coaches like Frank.  Hell even Prince had more experience than Frank

Yeah we should get Wooly back he has experience.  Who the frack are we going to get in here who has experience?  Bob Knight, you think he is looking for a job yet?  We have recruits comming next year give the guy a couple of years.  We need to see how he reacts and if he can start to turn the corner.

[steve dave]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

I disagree with that statment.  Martin is not out there dribbling off of his foot and throwing rocket passes to the ankles of fellow teammates.

Who recruited and brought DC and JP to Kstate you dumb f***?

Jesus this fanbase can make more f'n excuses than an out of work black person.

This is starting to remind me of the Princetards making "excuses" for the teams piss poor performance.

When its all said and done (after we finish 3-13) the blame will fall soley on FrackFaceFrank.

love reading this retards posts    so angry and stupid 

Steve, if you wanna talk about stupid, how about your classic preseason bball prediction.

What was it again?

Oh, thats right, 12-4 conf. followed by a NCAA birth.

Next

 

[phagallenblowsballs]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

I disagree with that statment.  Martin is not out there dribbling off of his foot and throwing rocket passes to the ankles of fellow teammates.

Who recruited and brought DC and JP to Kstate you dumb f***?

Jesus this fanbase can make more f'n excuses than an out of work black person.

This is starting to remind me of the Princetards making "excuses" for the teams piss poor performance.

When its all said and done (after we finish 3-13) the blame will fall soley on FrackFaceFrank.

love reading this retards posts    so angry and stupid 

Steve, if you wanna talk about stupid, how about your classic preseason bball prediction.

What was it again?

Oh, thats right, 12-4 conf. followed by a NCAA birth.

Next

 

Ur right Steve, we COULD go 12-0 from here on out.  The odds are in our favor for sure, right.

What excuse are we going to use when we dont win a game this year?

Blaming it on the schedule looks more pathetic as the season goes on.

But hey, were a smart fanbase, im sure we'll come up with another "excuse for sucking".

Has a HOF coach ever gone 0-16 in conf. before?

[Skydog]

For the first time in two weeks, the Wildcats finished with more assists (11) than turnovers (10). That brings their four-game assist-turnover ratio to 36-68.

This stat -- maybe more than any other -- positively reeks of lame-ass coaching.  It's shocking.

I disagree with that statment.  Martin is not out there dribbling off of his foot and throwing rocket passes to the ankles of fellow teammates.

Who recruited and brought DC and JP to Kstate you dumb f***?

Jesus this fanbase can make more f'n excuses than an out of work black person.

This is starting to remind me of the Princetards making "excuses" for the teams piss poor performance.

When its all said and done (after we finish 3-13) the blame will fall soley on FrackFaceFrank.

love reading this retards posts    so angry and stupid 

Steve, if you wanna talk about stupid, how about your classic preseason bball prediction.

What was it again?

Oh, thats right, 12-4 conf. followed by a NCAA birth.

Next

 

Ur right Steve, we COULD go 12-0 from here on out.  The odds are in our favor for sure, right.

What excuse are we going to use when we dont win a game this year?

Blaming it on the schedule looks more pathetic as the season goes on.

But hey, were a smart fanbase, im sure we'll come up with another "excuse for sucking".

Has a HOF coach ever gone 0-16 in conf. before?

Well... some of us are smart anyway.