who should be #1 so Memphis vs. Kansas..discuss..

[The Manhatter]

Let's do this..


Coach: Calipari vs. Self

LOL..Calipari = Final 4 at two programs including UMass.  Self's teams just seem to miss something despite having superior talent and depth to nearly every team they face('cept this Memphis team which we will discuss).

Advantage?  Calipari >> Self



Point Guard: Rose vs. Robinson

LOL.  It's not even worth discussing.  Game over.

Advantage?  Rose >>> Robinson



Shooting Guard: Anderson vs. Chalmers

Chalmers is the better player but maybe not quite as diverse as Anderson who can play the 1, 2, and 3 spots.  And he's an evil defender who is much bigger(6-6) than most guards he faces.  But for the pure 2 slot Chalmers is better.

Advantage?  Chalmers > Anderson



Wing:  Douglas-Roberts vs. Rush

CD-R is a better long range shooter (52% from 3) and dribble drive playmaker than Rush.  Both are excellent athletes but CD-R is the better overall talent/player.

Advantage?  Douglas-Roberts >> Rush



Forward: Dozier vs. Arthur

Arthur is the better offensive player but Dozier might be a better defender(shot blocker) and rebounder but that margin would be next to non-existent.

Advantage?  Arthur > Dozier


Forward:  Dorsey vs. Jackson

The wide bodies of the two teams w/ Dorsey @ 6-9 265 and Jackson @ 6-8 250.  I believe Jackson is minimally a better offensive player but these two are put on the floor to hit the boards and defend.  Dorsey is better at both outrebounding Jackson by nearly 3 per game and possessing an astonishing 3.5 to 1 shot block ratio over Jackson.

Advantage?  Dorsey > Jackson


Bench:  I'm really tempted to go w/ Memphis due to Mack, Kemp, and Taggart but no player for either team off the bench has as much game changing ability as Collins.  I'm not a fan of Kaun but he gives them a very experienced big and Stewart is very handy as well.

Advantage?  ku > Memphis (but close)


Add it up?

It's easy to see why Memphis is the new #1.  Their backcourt is more versatile and has more dynamic scorers not to mention more size.  Dorsey is a beast in the paint and Calipari is simply a better coach than Self.


head to head?  Memphis 78 Kansas 71

thoughts?

[WildCatzPhreak]

ku, so it feels better when we beat them.

[michigancat]

AASAA!

[Bullfn33]

Kansas is the better overall team.  They have more balance.  Talent and depth is about the same.  Experience goes to Memphis, slightly. The fact that Kansas can beat you in so many ways is what would make the difference.  Memphis is atrocious from the outside and they pretty much just try to dribble drive.  They are the ultimate "get to the rim" team and it works because they have athletes that can blow by people and run the court.  Kansas is quick enough on defense to slow down this style of offense and since Memphis isn't very good from the outside, I think Kansas would win but it would be a tight game. 

Memphis 68   
Kansas 73

[BullHawkWheel]

well, not we're &@#%ed

[The Manhatter]

Bullfn,

ku certainly does have better shot selection but outside shooting advantage for ku is slim and Memphis holds their opponents to much worse outside shooting than Kansas due to the tall, long, and athletic guards.

Remember...while ku might shoot it a touch better from the outside vs. OTHER opponents how would they shoot it on a night they faced Memphis?  And vise versa?

[GoodForAnother]

As long as both teams are undefeated, ku should be #1 due to playing in a better conference.

Also, if we beat a #1 ku I will  

and maybe   later that night

[The Manhatter]

As long as both teams are undefeated, ku should be #1 due to playing in a better conference.

I would agree w/ you if it remains this way at the end of the season but...to this point, no, because Memphis played a tougher non-conference schedule.

[Kat Kid]

Solid analysis, but the fact of the matter is that Bill Self has the most talent of any coach in the country.  He's also a world famous "players coach."  Players make plays, Caliparis run full court presses (as the saying goes).

I just don't see k-u losing a collegiate basketball game this year, imo.  IMO, ok?

[RU4KSU2]

I think Cole said all that could possibly be said about the issue in the TCJ article.

    

[Bullfn33]

Bullfn,

ku certainly does have better shot selection but outside shooting advantage for ku is slim and Memphis holds their opponents to much worse outside shooting than Kansas due to the tall, long, and athletic guards.

Remember...while ku might shoot it a touch better from the outside vs. OTHER opponents how would they shoot it on a night they faced Memphis?  And vise versa?

Memphis' long athletic guards could make it tough on ku's outside shooting but if you have an inside threat(they have a few) and can move the ball around quickly, you can get open looks regardless of who is defending you, assuming the defense would crash on the bigs.  When it comes down to it, either team could get hot and beat the other.  Kansas has just been more impressive to me this season.  I don't know how people can say otherwise at this point.  I'm by no means a ku fan, I can't stand them but that's my honest opinion.  I'd love to see them play this season.

[GoodForAnother]

As long as both teams are undefeated, ku should be #1 due to playing in a better conference.

I would agree w/ you if it remains this way at the end of the season but...to this point, no, because Memphis played a tougher non-conference schedule.

I suppose that's true.  Regardless, it won't matter after the 30th, right?!

Right?

...right?

[power4PURPLE]

As a Memphis fan all my life (born there) as well as a die hard K-Stater, maybe I can shed some light on this issue from both sides, cuz it's been killing me lately. Thanks 'Hatter for starting this thread!

Obviously I think Memphis is a more talented team athletically and very versatile at both ends of the floor. We've always had shooters and slashers, but never could find another big man inside to soften the load for Dorsey. With Taggart, we have that (not to mention Robert Dozier has really grown up and become a fine player for us, regardless of size). I believe our big men could definitely hang with ku in the post, but Arthur would create quite a problem with his abilities. As for the guards, there are a lot of toss-ups really. Anderson is a very underrated player, CDR is extremely gifted. But so are Robinson and Chalmers. The only problem for the Hawks here would be our size and length. Rush would help, but the kid's knee would get torn in two with the crossovers we pull. Off the bench, I don't even think it's a question- edge Memphis. Kemp, Mack, Allen, Taggart, Niles, Robinson. We have the capability of subbing 5 in-5 out and lose very little. Past Collins and maybe Kaun, who can ku put in for a breather?? Reed? Stewart? And don't even begin to say ALDRICH!

Basically, I think people overlook the Tigers length (I swear we've got players with 10 foot arms) and defensive pressure. Kansas is fundamentally sound and smart however. But in the big games, it helps to have depth and experience in big games. And did I mention a (bill raftery voice) KISS from a Rose....(thank you Seal).
Finally, enough with the conference nonsense. In case you forgot, we've been in that conference since it was dismantled and have still made the Elite 8 twice. The C-USA bologna is old now fellas. And I believe we beat a very good Big 12 team that upset ku last season in the sweet 16. Trust me, I'd love to see Memphis go elsewhere for the challenge. But I gotta admit, football isn't helping our case for an SEC, ACC, or Big East jump.

Anyway, my apologies for the long post. I'd love to see this matchup for the good of college basketball. But as a true Wildcat, I'd also love to see my Tigers fall for just 1 game in order to bring the Hawks in at the top slot and end the streak in true fashion.   

[JamesgangCat]

It doesnt matter. They are both undefeated and will get 1 seeds in the tourney

[michigancat]

Kansas is the better overall team.  They have more balance.  Talent and depth is about the same.  Experience goes to Memphis, slightly. The fact that Kansas can beat you in so many ways is what would make the difference.  Memphis is atrocious from the outside and they pretty much just try to dribble drive.  They are the ultimate "get to the rim" team and it works because they have athletes that can blow by people and run the court.  Kansas is quick enough on defense to slow down this style of offense and since Memphis isn't very good from the outside, I think Kansas would win but it would be a tight game. 

Memphis 68   
Kansas 73

LBBIQ.

Memphis's offense is brilliant, and their shot selection is excellent.  Watch Memphis more closely next time you see them play.  Pretty much every shot you see them take is either in the paint (with the lone big man's defender usually not boxing out because he's helping defend the dribble drive) or a three.  It's brilliant in it's relative simplicity.  (Spacing and developing skills are very important, and not easy to teach).

[tmramrod91]

Kansas is the better overall team.  They have more balance.  Talent and depth is about the same.  Experience goes to Memphis, slightly. The fact that Kansas can beat you in so many ways is what would make the difference.  Memphis is atrocious from the outside and they pretty much just try to dribble drive.  They are the ultimate "get to the rim" team and it works because they have athletes that can blow by people and run the court.  Kansas is quick enough on defense to slow down this style of offense and since Memphis isn't very good from the outside, I think Kansas would win but it would be a tight game. 

Memphis 68   
Kansas 73

LBBIQ.

Memphis's offense is brilliant, and their shot selection is excellent.  Watch Memphis more closely next time you see them play.  Pretty much every shot you see them take is either in the paint (with the lone big man's defender usually not boxing out because he's helping defend the dribble drive) or a three.  It's brilliant in it's relative simplicity.  (Spacing and developing skills are very important, and not easy to teach).

QFT
Callipari is an absolute genius coach. Memphis isn't weak at a single position this year. They are really fun to watch bc as street ball as they look they are very disciplined and well coached.
But ku is frackin good this yr too.

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

This thread is pathetic.

I hope that someday I'm reading a ku message board thread about why KSU should clearly be #2 in the nation as opposed to #1, while ku is among "others receiving votes". 

[pissclams]

This thread is pathetic.

I hope that someday I'm reading a ku message board thread about why KSU should clearly be #2 in the nation as opposed to #1, while ku is among "others receiving votes". 

it's a good discussion and one that a lot of basketball pundits are having right now.  can only fans from teams ranked #1 or #2 debate the question?

[Ben]

Let's do this..


Coach: Calipari vs. Self

LOL..Calipari = Final 4 at two programs including UMass.  Self's teams just seem to miss something despite having superior talent and depth to nearly every team they face('cept this Memphis team which we will discuss).

Advantage?  Calipari >> Self



Point Guard: Rose vs. Robinson

LOL.  It's not even worth discussing.  Game over.

Advantage?  Rose >>> Robinson



Shooting Guard: Anderson vs. Chalmers

Chalmers is the better player but maybe not quite as diverse as Anderson who can play the 1, 2, and 3 spots.  And he's an evil defender who is much bigger(6-6) than most guards he faces.  But for the pure 2 slot Chalmers is better.

Advantage?  Chalmers > Anderson



Wing:  Douglas-Roberts vs. Rush

CD-R is a better long range shooter (52% from 3) and dribble drive playmaker than Rush.  Both are excellent athletes but CD-R is the better overall talent/player.

Advantage?  Douglas-Roberts >> Rush



Forward: Dozier vs. Arthur

Arthur is the better offensive player but Dozier might be a better defender(shot blocker) and rebounder but that margin would be next to non-existent.

Advantage?  Arthur > Dozier


Forward:  Dorsey vs. Jackson

The wide bodies of the two teams w/ Dorsey @ 6-9 265 and Jackson @ 6-8 250.  I believe Jackson is minimally a better offensive player but these two are put on the floor to hit the boards and defend.  Dorsey is better at both outrebounding Jackson by nearly 3 per game and possessing an astonishing 3.5 to 1 shot block ratio over Jackson.

Advantage?  Dorsey > Jackson


Bench:  I'm really tempted to go w/ Memphis due to Mack, Kemp, and Taggart but no player for either team off the bench has as much game changing ability as Collins.  I'm not a fan of Kaun but he gives them a very experienced big and Stewart is very handy as well.

Advantage?  ku > Memphis (but close)


Add it up?

It's easy to see why Memphis is the new #1.  Their backcourt is more versatile and has more dynamic scorers not to mention more size.  Dorsey is a beast in the paint and Calipari is simply a better coach than Self.


head to head?  Memphis 78 Kansas 71

thoughts?

'Hatter, are you really trying to come off as objective with that nonsense?


Coaches:  Calipari vs. Self

First of all, Calipari has only been to one Final Four: with Umass.  He won the Sporting News National Coach of the Year award in 1996.  Bill Self won the award in 2000.  Along with Roy Williams and Bill Self, Calipari is the only other coach to lead two different teams to #1 seeds in the NCAA Tournament.  Bill Self is the only coach to take three different teams to the Elite Eight.  Bill Self has the highest winning percentage of any coach in Kansas basketball history. 


Advantage?  Push


Point guard: Robinson vs. Rose

Robinson is the best on ball defender in the country.  Kansas doesn't rely on him to score, but if he played on a team like K-State, he'd average double figures.  Robinson is Kansas' team leader as a senior and exemplifies what it means to be an all-around teammate.  Derrick Rose is more prolific on the offensive side of the court and will be an NBA lottery pick.  Still, if you watched the Kansas vs. USC game and saw the way that Robinson shut down OJ Mayo in the 2nd half, you'd have to think Russell could do the same vs. Rose.


Advantage?  Rose > Robinson


Shooting guard:  Chalmers vs. Anderson

I don't even know how you can make this matchup seem like its close.  Chalmers is superior in every aspect of the game.  He's Kansas' best overall player and one of the best defenders I've ever seen.  He has an instinct for where the ball is going to go and jumps the passing lanes better than any other player I've seen at the college level.  Not only is Chalmers an elite player on the defensive end of the court, but he's deceptively athletic and can shoot from anywhere on the court.  Anderson isn't even in the same league.   


Advantage?  Chalmers >>> Anderson


Small forward:  Douglas-Roberts vs. Rush

Douglas-Roberts is the best player on Memphis' team and can score in a variety of ways.  He's much more effective off of the dribble than Rush and also has the ability to take contact and finish strong inside.  Rush has the length and the athleticism over CDR, but that's about it.  If Rush were more aggressive this would be a closer matchup, but at this point, CDR is the superior player.


Advantage?  Doublas-Roberts >>  Rush


Power forward:  Dozier vs. Arthur

Arthur is the leading scorer on a Jayhawk team that's loaded with talent.  Arthur is also the best pro prospect on Kansas' team and will likely be an NBA lottery pick.  Dozier is slightly more physical than Arthur, but not by much.  Dozier is also a little more advanced on the defensive end of the court.  Still, Arthur's got more polish around the basket and can get up and down the court as fast as any big man in the country. 


Advantage?  Arthur > Dozier


Power forward:  Jackson vs. Dorsey

Before the season started this wouldn't have been a question.  However, Darnell Jackson is the most improved player on Kansas' team and plays with a lot of emotion.  The team feeds off of his energy.  Dorsey's a better rebounder and defender than Jackson, but Jackson is much more polished offensively and has been the main reason why Kansas is playing like the #1 team in the country.


Advantage?  Jackson > Dorsey


Bench:  Both Kansas and Memphis have good depth, but when you've got guys like Sherron Collins and Sasha Kaun coming off the bench, you're tough to beat.  There are only a handful of teams in the country with the kind of depth that Kansas has.  Both teams can go at least 9-deep, but I give the slight edge to Kansas based off of the quality and size of our bench players.


Advantage?  Kansas > Memphis


Add it up and you can see why guys like Fran Fraschilla and Jay Bilas are convinced that Kansas is the best team in the country.  Factor in common opponents and Kansas has played slightly better against similar competition.  Keep in mind that Memphis played 'Zona without Jerryd Bayless.  Also, Kansas beat USC in LA while Memphis played them on a neutral court.  Aside from Georgetown, Kansas' non-con schedule compares nicely with Memphis' and there isn't much difference between the two.  The remaining non-con games on Memphis' schedule are mainly because their conference is so bad.

[steve dave]

Aside from Georgetown

Why aside from Georgetown 

[Ben]

Aside from Georgetown

Why aside from Georgetown 

What's so confusing?  Aside from Georgetown, the non-con schedules are nearly identical.  Memphis has to play a team like Georgetown in the non-con given how pathetic their conference is.  Kansas also played DePaul (4-2 Big East), @ Boston College (3-1 ACC), and @ Georgia Tech (lost to UNC by 1).  Both teams played USC and Arizona, although Kansas played @ USC and Memphis played Arizona without Jerryd Bayless. 

[The Manhatter]

good stuff BMW and hard to argue most of that.  It just depends on how you look at it.  

As for Chalmers and Anderson.  I clearly stated that Chalmers is definitely the better shooting guard BUT I believe them to be closer than you think for the fact that Anderson is so versatile and he's much bigger.  Anderson is a very good defender, strong on the drive, and can play each of the three positions in the backcourt.  That is the only reason I have them closer.

On Jackson and Dorsey...I think any team's wide bodies are in there primarily to get boards(and put backs) and defend.  I really don't care if Jackson has a bit more polish offensively...Dorsey is clearly the better rebounder and defender and that is why I would take him over Jackson.  It's not that we're in disagreement about these two...it's the function they provide for a team and how we judge their importance.

Good discussion...I would love to see these two teams play.  

[steve dave]

Aside from Georgetown

Why aside from Georgetown 

What's so confusing?  Aside from Georgetown, the non-con schedules are nearly identical.  Memphis has to play a team like Georgetown in the non-con given how pathetic their conference is.  Kansas also played DePaul (4-2 Big East), @ Boston College (3-1 ACC), and @ Georgia Tech (lost to UNC by 1).  Both teams played USC and Arizona, although Kansas played @ USC and Memphis played Arizona without Jerryd Bayless. 

Isn't it easier to just say, "Memphis had a tougher non-con"? 

[fatty fat fat]

ku lacks the "it" factor, and a go to player.

[The Manhatter]

Isn't it easier to just say, "Memphis had a tougher non-con"? 

If it wasn't easier to say that for football what makes you think that will be the case for hoops?

[Hawkish]

ku lacks the "it" factor, and a go to player.

It cuts both ways, and I agree with you. We don't have an "IT" factor, but I am not convinced it hurts us.

Kevin Love gets a lot of fanfare for UCLA because he is a phenomenal freshman, but really, he's a great piece in a juggernaut of a basketball team.

Tennessee, Memphis, and ku share the behemoth-style of basketball. Each team is 7 to 9 players deep, and I am not sure other schools can really match up well with this come tournament time.

That isn't to say they don't have a guy who can't take over the game, but anyone on these teams could take over the game.

Yes, ku does not live through a single player, but neither does Memphis, Tennessee, or UCLA. These teams have 5 or 6 guys you cannot sleep on.

That isn't to knock on a team like K-State. I think K-State is very good, but you live and die through 1 or 2 players. If a team can contain those two it is pretty grim if you're looking for points or a shut down player.

I think ku v. Memphis is a push. I also think a combination of those 4 teams in any arrangement is a push. It's too close to call.

[Dr_KS]

ku lacks the "it" factor, and a go to player.

you don't need an "it factor" when you have not only a talented starting 5, but a talented bench

[doom]

Memphis deserves #1, because until they meet head-to-head, Memphis has the best odds of being unbeaten.  Kansas would be more battle tested through conference play.  Memphis has a better coach.