Date: 29/07/25 - 08:01 AM   48060 Topics and 694399 Posts

Author Topic: LOL!!  (Read 3829 times)

January 23, 2008, 11:48:17 AM
Reply #30

PCR

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The Earth is a closed system.  Our addition of CO2 to the atmosphere has added up over time.  Remember we pulled all of this carbon out of the ground and burned it so it now resides in the atmosphere.  It's not going back in the ground by itself.  The shrinking amount of plant life on the Earth is not automatically capable of dealing with the extra carbon.  Eventually the system may figure a way to even things out, but it will cause great upheaval to human life in the meantime.  There's too many people anyway, so maybe this is just a "market correction." 

January 23, 2008, 02:06:58 PM
Reply #31

mjrod

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It's not the fact the earth is warming, it's the speed over the last several decades.

Speed compared to what?

avg temp increase over time.  Apparently or I guess the "say" they can tell this over thousands of years.

Seriously?  Who says that?

January 23, 2008, 02:18:37 PM
Reply #32

mjrod

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The Earth is a closed system.  Our addition of CO2 to the atmosphere has added up over time.  Remember we pulled all of this carbon out of the ground and burned it so it now resides in the atmosphere.  It's not going back in the ground by itself.  The shrinking amount of plant life on the Earth is not automatically capable of dealing with the extra carbon.  Eventually the system may figure a way to even things out, but it will cause great upheaval to human life in the meantime.  There's too many people anyway, so maybe this is just a "market correction." 

Explain this graph:



The blue line represents the average temperature of the earth over the last 600 million years.  The black line represents CO2 concentrations.

Notice anything weird about it?  Seems pretty concrete that CO2 concentrations apparently do not drive temperature.


If you consider that the average cycle of CO2 during any given year is approximately 2000 Gigatons, and we put in less than 1% of that amount, how long do you think it would take for us to reach the levels some 400 million years ago?

Here's the source of that graph..

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/Reference_Docs/Geocarb_III-Berner.pdf

You've been duped by people who know as much as you do about the climate.

I have no problems reducing CO2 emissions if it means reducing our dependence on oil.  That's a valid concern for humanity in of itself.  To suggest for a single moment that CO2 emissions are going to cause global catastrophe for humanity is ludicrous.



January 23, 2008, 02:54:21 PM
Reply #33

cireksu

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It's not the fact the earth is warming, it's the speed over the last several decades.

Speed compared to what?

avg temp increase over time.  Apparently or I guess the "say" they can tell this over thousands of years.

Seriously?  Who says that?


I read in a magazine, newsweek or us news that tried to dumb it down.

I've done absolutely no research on the topic so don't have much of an opinion but the article said essentially.

1.  Earth is warming now and has also warmed and cooled in the past.

2.  The warming of the last 100 years or essentially since the industrial revolution has occured at a faster rate than the other periods of warming in recorded history and in what has been observed studying things like Ice cores from antarctica.

3.  The article I read made it sound miniscule like as in the avg temp has increased 1 degree in 100 years recently while in a warming period pre industrial revolution would take several hundred years, but that is where I am hazy on it.

January 23, 2008, 03:14:03 PM
Reply #34

shaft3500

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so mj, do you work for conoco phillips or exxon mobil?

January 23, 2008, 03:30:34 PM
Reply #35

mjrod

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The Newsweek Magazine Article.

The Ice Core issue is a very controversial issue because some chemists have said that trying to extract CO2 information from them is not accurate at all, and in fact CO2 concentrations change over long periods of time within the ice itself.  In either event, the data from the ice cores used in AIT was misleading.   In actuality, CO2 has an 800 year lag after temperature rise based on the ice cores, meaning that CO2 does not drive temperature, but vice versa.   This fact is cleverly covered up by Al Gore.

At the same time, at the end of the sequence, it shows a large jump in the last half of the 20th century after several hundred thousand years.   The problem is, he spliced a temperature record onto a proxy record and the proxy record of just one set of ice cores.   Other ice cores from around the world do not match and therefore its hard to understand why Gore chose the work of just one scientist.. and this particular scientist has gone on record and stated that Gore used the graph incorrectly.

The key point to remember about the issue of relativistic warming in recorded history is knowing what is recorded history.  That recorded history is only 160 years old, and so while measuring 16 decades of warmth, the last three decades have the largest increase.   That increase has been overall, .3 degrees C.   Yet, there is substantial evidence that temperature increases in the climate may actually be due to urban expansion and ill placed temperature recording equipment.   In fact, the temperature grid used is a set called the GISS system which is a compilation of recording stations throughout the world.   In some of those locations, Brazil shows the largest increase in temperatures in South America, yet, Brazil only has six recorders in the entire country, five of them located inside urban locations.   The only rural recorder shows no warming over the last four decades.

And then there is the issue of record completeness and viability.  The United states had over 6000 recording stations during the 1940's through 1960's but that number has dropped to around 1200, yet the increase in temperature since 1960 is due to the fact that almost 70% of the recording equipment is located within urban settings.   In 1998, NOAA spent money replacing bad thermometers that were installed back in the 1980's because they gave biases of almost 1 to 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit and since many were in urban settings, the temperature rise seemed dramatic.   Rural locations have show little or no warming in their equipment.

In 2005, NASA released its top 10 warmest years showing that 2001 was the warmest on record and that 4 of the years after 1998 were in the top 10.  When the data was reviewed by a statistician, it was shown that NASA made a math error and promptly entered a retraction.   That retraction then showed that 1998 was no longer the warmest year, but 1934, and of the 10 warmest years, 6 were before 1950.

The point is really this simple.  The climate is still not well understood and the processes that have been going on for millions of years are hard to explain.  Observations have shown the link between CO2 and temperature are not well understood, and many in the climate community are becoming more vocal about the doomsday scenarios when in fact, it's just a lot of hot air.

If the planet has been markedly warmer in the past, and life has flourished, then why won't MAN be able to adapt?  It's not as easy as saying "We know CO2 holds heat" but to the person who refuses to actually understand science,  you cannot rely on the doomsday scenarios in the newsweek article to boil down science into a quick two sentence explanation.

The primary reason for the hype is that environmentalists and their anti-capitalistic means are trying to scare people back into the stone age.   This is a hot button issue that has no basis in fact.   The policy makers have decided that there is an issue, but if you asked them to explain how they arrived at their conclusion, you'll see that they do not understand the issue either.

There is no doubt we need a national energy policy to eliminate our dependence on oil.   We need a better way to develop dependable energy sources to support our voracious demand.   However, until we do, we should not be threatened by ignorance of the media and politics of a few scientists.  We really need more definitive answers before we start condemning man to a life of eternal hell.




January 23, 2008, 03:31:10 PM
Reply #36

mjrod

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so mj, do you work for conoco phillips or exxon mobil?

Neither.

January 23, 2008, 04:36:35 PM
Reply #37

chum1

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Al Gore is to climate change what Al Gore is to the internet.  WGAF.

Credible info about this stuff really isn't hard to find.

Quote
Greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere will increase during the next century unless greenhouse gas emissions decrease substantially from present levels. Increased greenhouse gas concentrations are very likely to raise the Earth's average temperature, influence precipitation and some storm patterns as well as raise sea levels (IPCC, 2007). The magnitude of these changes, however, is uncertain.
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/futurecc.html

January 23, 2008, 04:42:29 PM
Reply #38

mjrod

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Referencing the IPCC reports is tantamount to a tapout.   LOL @ anyone who sees the IPCC report as a "scientific" document.


January 23, 2008, 05:04:41 PM
Reply #39

ksuno1stunner

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Global warming?  &@#% that crap.

January 23, 2008, 05:16:38 PM
Reply #40

jeffy

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Thank you for taking care of all my light work, mj.  I was just about to put that chart up until I scrolled down and saw it.

But.... they are now talking about cow belches contributing to global warming.   :rofl:

I will now put on my coveralls and return to the frigid out-of-doors.

January 23, 2008, 05:18:54 PM
Reply #41

chum1

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I don't think anyone here has a good grasp of the science.  (Or of the politics.)  Given this, I'm not sure what would be more credible to more of us than a simple statement from our government.  

January 23, 2008, 05:21:20 PM
Reply #42

cireksu

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Personally I'm more interested as to what is causing the rise in Autism.

January 23, 2008, 06:50:44 PM
Reply #43

sam adams

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Referencing the IPCC reports is tantamount to a tapout.   LOL @ anyone who sees the IPCC report as a "scientific" document.



the geocraft.com site referenced above was put together by a guy who works for the West Virginia Miner's Health and Safety agency.  COAL miners.

just sayin'

January 23, 2008, 07:59:49 PM
Reply #44

jeffy

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Referencing the IPCC reports is tantamount to a tapout.   LOL @ anyone who sees the IPCC report as a "scientific" document.



the geocraft.com site referenced above was put together by a guy who works for the West Virginia Miner's Health and Safety agency.  COAL miners.

just sayin'

That graph may have come from that site, but it's hardly derived from that site.  Scotese is a geology professor at UT Arlington.  Berner is a professor of geology and geophysics at Yale.

January 23, 2008, 08:34:07 PM
Reply #45

GoldbrickGangBoss

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So we're back on the cycle to 22 degrees Celsius.
I'm telling you, this is not ANYTHING like the team from the beginning of conference play. You will see no more blowouts like what happened in OOC.  If we lose, it will not because these kids gave up, and it will be at the buzzer. -Rodless, before 97-70

January 23, 2008, 09:08:09 PM
Reply #46

mjrod

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Referencing the IPCC reports is tantamount to a tapout.   LOL @ anyone who sees the IPCC report as a "scientific" document.



the geocraft.com site referenced above was put together by a guy who works for the West Virginia Miner's Health and Safety agency.  COAL miners.

just sayin'

It's a specious argument to assume that because someone works for a coal company or a gas and oil company, or associated with one of those groups, that science is somehow different when doing climate reconstructions from geological study.


January 23, 2008, 09:56:40 PM
Reply #47

Houstoncat93

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Explain this graph:



The blue line represents the average temperature of the earth over the last 600 million years.  The black line represents CO2 concentrations.

Notice anything weird about it?  Seems pretty concrete that CO2 concentrations apparently do not drive temperature.




"This means that over the long term there is
indeed a correlation between CO2 and paleotemperature, as manifested by the
atmospheric greenhouse effect." - Conclusion from paper cited above

January 23, 2008, 10:15:09 PM
Reply #48

mjrod

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Explain this graph:



The blue line represents the average temperature of the earth over the last 600 million years.  The black line represents CO2 concentrations.

Notice anything weird about it?  Seems pretty concrete that CO2 concentrations apparently do not drive temperature.




"This means that over the long term there is
indeed a correlation between CO2 and paleotemperature, as manifested by the
atmospheric greenhouse effect." - Conclusion from paper cited above


Quote
In addition, because of the importance of plants to weathering, many more experimental studies under natural conditions are needed to determine how much different plants accelerate weathering and how the plants respond to change in atmospheric CO2. If nothing else, it is hoped that papers such as this one will act as a spur to more interaction between geologists, geochemists, geophysicists, biologists, and climatologists. The long term carbon cycle demands a multidisciplinary approach.


The paper also never tells us which is the driver, CO2 or temperature.    That is the key to the AGW position, that CO2 is a driver of planet temperatures.


January 23, 2008, 10:24:04 PM
Reply #49

Dirty Sanchez

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Referencing the IPCC reports is tantamount to a tapout.   LOL @ anyone who sees the IPCC report as a "scientific" document.



the geocraft.com site referenced above was put together by a guy who works for the West Virginia Miner's Health and Safety agency.  COAL miners.

just sayin'

It's a specious argument to assume that because someone works for a coal company or a gas and oil company, or associated with one of those groups, that science is somehow different when doing climate reconstructions from geological study.



I love that little lie.  Funny how pro-mmgw "scientists" never have their funding looked at.  Often, their funding derives from nations, companies, foundations, and benefactors that have a vested interest in the green business.  This is especially true of the ipcc "scientists".  The ipcc report is a political document for those of you not smart enough to see right through it to its motivations.

Of course, often ignored is the list of proposed "solutions" to the "problem."  They're really, really, really expensive and at best estimates will have a neglible result (what did I mention about those who have a vested interest in the green business?).  That and they all seem to tear down the top economies--the ones, like the US, that the world economy relies on for prosperity--in favor of "sharing" with developing nations like china.  Let's see now...where have I heard that before?  Robin Hood, yeah.  But more currently...oh yeah....marx, lenin, mao, clinton.

January 23, 2008, 10:54:10 PM
Reply #50

sam adams

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Referencing the IPCC reports is tantamount to a tapout.   LOL @ anyone who sees the IPCC report as a "scientific" document.

Quote
It's a specious argument to assume that because someone works for an intergovermental team of hundreds of actual scientists, or associated with one of those groups, that science is somehow different when doing climate reconstructions from geological study.



FYP

January 23, 2008, 11:00:49 PM
Reply #51

mjrod

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Referencing the IPCC reports is tantamount to a tapout.   LOL @ anyone who sees the IPCC report as a "scientific" document.

Quote
It's a specious argument to assume that because someone works for an intergovermental team of hundreds of actual scientists, or associated with one of those groups, that science is somehow different when doing climate reconstructions from geological study.



FYP
Works both ways.   Don't assume the IPCC is a scientific organization.   The do not perform any scientific work.


January 23, 2008, 11:25:25 PM
Reply #52

sam adams

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Referencing the IPCC reports is tantamount to a tapout.   LOL @ anyone who sees the IPCC report as a "scientific" document.

Quote
It's a specious argument to assume that because someone works for an intergovermental team of hundreds of actual scientists, or associated with one of those groups, that science is somehow different when doing climate reconstructions from geological study.



FYP
Works both ways.   Don't assume the IPCC is a scientific organization.   The do not perform any scientific work.


Right, it isn't.  I think it's an obviously bureaucratic group that try's to sift through the scientific data and build a consensus of what that data says.

The point is, the hundreds of scientist's who weighed in on what their data/models/theories say to the IPCC are much more relevant to this debate than the pair of amateur's (not a slam, just reality) who pick and choose the data to fit their own ideas.

January 23, 2008, 11:43:00 PM
Reply #53

mjrod

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Referencing the IPCC reports is tantamount to a tapout.   LOL @ anyone who sees the IPCC report as a "scientific" document.

Quote
It's a specious argument to assume that because someone works for an intergovermental team of hundreds of actual scientists, or associated with one of those groups, that science is somehow different when doing climate reconstructions from geological study.



FYP
Works both ways.   Don't assume the IPCC is a scientific organization.   The do not perform any scientific work.


Right, it isn't.  I think it's an obviously bureaucratic group that try's to sift through the scientific data and build a consensus of what that data says.

The point is, the hundreds of scientist's who weighed in on what their data/models/theories say to the IPCC are much more relevant to this debate than the pair of amateur's (not a slam, just reality) who pick and choose the data to fit their own ideas.

Amateurs?

Like who?

January 24, 2008, 08:03:39 AM
Reply #54

Dirty Sanchez

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Originally spouted by all the duped:
Quote
shills for big oil

stupid

amateurs

Let's see if this one sticks

January 24, 2008, 12:11:41 PM
Reply #55

sam adams

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Amateurs?

Like who?

West Virginia Miner's Health and Safety employees.

I suppose you and the rectally fascinated sock are as well, as am I.

January 24, 2008, 12:20:03 PM
Reply #56

mjrod

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Amateurs?

Like who?

West Virginia Miner's Health and Safety employees.

I suppose you and the rectally fascinated sock are as well, as am I.

Did you miss the part of the guys credentials as a professor and researcher?

What person would you consider to be NOT an amateur in this debate that would be considered credible?

January 24, 2008, 12:35:16 PM
Reply #57

sam adams

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Must be tough for him to hold down his engineer position and be a professor.

You don't consider working for the oil/coal sector an automatic disqualifier for someone?  Strange.

January 24, 2008, 12:38:06 PM
Reply #58

mjrod

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Must be tough for him to hold down his engineer position and be a professor.

You don't consider working for the oil/coal sector an automatic disqualifier for someone?  Strange.

He published a scientific paper that was accepted by his peers.   I guess if they don't have a problem with it, why would I?

January 24, 2008, 01:05:02 PM
Reply #59

shaft3500

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Must be tough for him to hold down his engineer position and be a professor.

You don't consider working for the oil/coal sector an automatic disqualifier for someone?  Strange.

He published a scientific paper that was accepted by his peers.   I guess if they don't have a problem with it, why would I?

if he indeed is funded by the power industry, that tends to make conclusions biased so that the proverbial tit doesn't get popped out of his mouth.
But more currently...oh yeah....marx, lenin, mao, clinton.
a little socalism never hurt anyone!




 :peek: