Why I still have hope Prince will be a great coach

[fatty fat fat]

Big 12 coaches 1st 2 years conference record vs 2 years of previous coach

Stoops: 13-3 vs 5-11 +8
Brown: 12-4 vs 8-8 +4
Prince: 7-8 vs 4-12 +3
Pinkel: 5-11 vs 3-13 +2
Morris: 2-14 vs 1-15 +1
Mangino: 3-13 vs 3-13 0
Callahan: 7-9 vs 8-8 -1
Franchione: 7-9 vs 8-8 -1
Leach: 7-9 vs 9-7 -2
Gundy: 4-12 vs 8-8 -4
Hawkins: 5-10 vs 9-7 -4


Chizik: 2-5 vs 5-11 INC.



Now, why I am a bit worried?
1)Record will regress by about 1 game
2)Defense is slighty worse, than last year (where it wasn't very good)
3)Giving up 73...I don't know...that just screams red flag.

^^both of those are kind of a big deal^^


Prince had a real opportunity to show he can be a GREAT coach heading into the ISU and Nebraska combo. Despite, both being losses, he still shows promise imo if you look at the big picture. FOLKS YOU MUST CONCENTRATE ON THE BIG PICTURE HERE! Don't get caught up looking at one game. 

[michigancat]

agree w/ all

[Saulbadguy]

Something about Prince makes me have faith in him everytime he talks.  Dunno why.  He is an excellent speaker.

[michigancat]

I also like the Stacy Dean updates.  That DE from Butler has us #1, and so does that DT Burgess.

They're also in on good guys early...good evaluators IMO.

[sonofdaxjones]

I agree, I just wish we had an Athletic Director who thought in terms of the Big Picture more, but that's just me hatin on Timmy according to everyone else.

[Saulbadguy]

but that's just me hatin on Timmy according to everyone else.

Agreed.

[sonofdaxjones]

but that's just me hatin on Timmy according to everyone else.

Agreed.

Okay Mrs. Weiser.

[ksu_FAN]

Something about Prince makes me have faith in him everytime he talks.  Dunno why.  He is an excellent speaker.

That sounds like Wooly.  

Good post fatty.  The 73 points just is a head scratcher and hard to get past.

The last few weeks I'm not so sure what to think.  It seems Prince may have built some things into this team that once those opportunities were lost he's lost them a bit.  It seemed to start after the OSU loss and really hit after ISU.  When some of the players and Prince talked about losing the opportunity to play for a north championship and meaningful games in november was followed up by the debacle in Lincoln you have to wonder.  Had he got these guys so hyped to be in contention that once that was lost he lost them?  And if so, can he get them back?   He also talked about how tough he knew this year was going to be after we lost at ISU.  How he knew that year 2 could/would be the most difficult.  You have t wonder if some of the players heard this, how they interpreted it.  I think its becoming apparent in year two that besides fixing the defense, one other major thing Prince needs to work on is handling the emotions of his team from week to week.  

I have no problem with having those high expectations, but you've got to balance it with the "get better every day" talk.  It seems that went out the window when some of the big things were lost.  It will be interesting to see how we finish and what kind of fight we put up the next two weeks.

[fatty fat fat]

Speaking of Wooly

1st 2 years: 10-22
last 2 years (asbury): 10-22

heh.

[chum1]

Isn't the big picture that the DOD is clearly over?

[mjrod]

Isn't the big picture that the DOD is clearly over?

We're working on a quarter century of dominance... which would show great progress in the program.

[KSUTOMMY]

This Defense makes you wonder what Raheem did/say in concert with the 4-3 formation. Was all that jumping around and craziness worth while in the long run - who knows. My feeling is that eventually, you have to pull a Jordy Nelson - I want to get to the league and I am going to do MY THING to get there, even though the rest of these FPs wont. I just hope that we have more success with next year's recruiting class - this years looked so DAMNED good on tape. 

[ksu_FAN]

This Defense makes you wonder what Raheem did/say in concert with the 4-3 formation. Was all that jumping around and craziness worth while in the long run - who knows. My feeling is that eventually, you have to pull a Jordy Nelson - I want to get to the league and I am going to do MY THING to get there, even though the rest of these FPs wont. I just hope that we have more success with next year's recruiting class - this years looked so DAMNED good on tape. 

Those recruiting highlight videos are made to hype the fans.  They should make a video of the guys messing up/taking plays off.  That would balance things out.

[steve dave]

This Defense makes you wonder what Raheem did/say in concert with the 4-3 formation. Was all that jumping around and craziness worth while in the long run - who knows. My feeling is that eventually, you have to pull a Jordy Nelson - I want to get to the league and I am going to do MY THING to get there, even though the rest of these FPs wont. I just hope that we have more success with next year's recruiting class - this years looked so DAMNED good on tape. 

Those recruiting highlight videos are made to hype the fans.  They should make a video of the guys messing up/taking plays off.  That would balance things out.

They should make some sort of grading or reference system.  Like diamonds or orbs or something.  A great player gets five orbs while a really bad player (Prince recruit) gets 2 orbs.  Just IMHO.

[catzacker]

I've been worried since the OSU game.  We've played fairly bad in every game since, only Baylor's incompetence has helped.  The defese clearly has issues, but what bothers me almost as much is how inept our OL has looked the past 2 games, especially against NU.  We can't even block through simple line stunts.  It just looks like they have regressed.  And the defense, no matter what Prince has says, has quit.  It doesn't appear that they believe in themselves, their teammates, or the system and quite frankly, I think even they are coming to the same conclusion that we are which is that they aren't good enough players. 

[pissclams]

great players should get 7 (seven) orbs, just imo.

[ksu_FAN]

I've been worried since the OSU game.  We've played fairly bad in every game since, only Baylor's incompetence has helped.  The defese clearly has issues, but what bothers me almost as much is how inept our OL has looked the past 2 games, especially against NU.  We can't even block through simple line stunts.  It just looks like they have regressed.  And the defense, no matter what Prince has says, has quit.  It doesn't appear that they believe in themselves, their teammates, or the system and quite frankly, I think even they are coming to the same conclusion that we are which is that they aren't good enough players. 

Agreed.  Looking back, OSU definately seems to be a major turning point, and the only thing that helped mask it momentarily was Baylor.  You've got to be able to get your kids past losses like that and losing the opportunity at a north championship, etc.  73 points goes beyond injuries, players not fitting schemes, lack of talent, etc.

[catzacker]

I've been worried since the OSU game.  We've played fairly bad in every game since, only Baylor's incompetence has helped.  The defese clearly has issues, but what bothers me almost as much is how inept our OL has looked the past 2 games, especially against NU.  We can't even block through simple line stunts.  It just looks like they have regressed.  And the defense, no matter what Prince has says, has quit.  It doesn't appear that they believe in themselves, their teammates, or the system and quite frankly, I think even they are coming to the same conclusion that we are which is that they aren't good enough players. 

Agreed.  Looking back, OSU definately seems to be a major turning point, and the only thing that helped mask it momentarily was Baylor.  You've got to be able to get your kids past losses like that and losing the opportunity at a north championship, etc.  73 points goes beyond injuries, players not fitting schemes, lack of talent, etc.

What concerns me is that the KSU players will begin to see this as a system issue (although as I said, I think even they might realize they suck, which is kind of a bad thing, at the end of the day you still want them to have confidence in their abilities even if they have none).

The problem is first and foremost the players, then the system not being able to utilize the current roster.  The case study for this was the Chiefs defense under Greg Robinson.  Basically, the fans, the players, the media said "it's Greg's system" when in actuality it was the crappy players in the system.  Then the system changes (enter Gunther) and guess what?  same results.  They start to add young talent and magically the defense gets better. My only point about the 3-4 at KSU is that I think it's much more difficult to recruit to than a 4-3, therefore it's going to take longer/be tougher to fix. 

[Bullfn33]

Something about Prince makes me have faith in him everytime he talks.  Dunno why.  He is an excellent speaker.

That sounds like Wooly. 

Good post fatty.  The 73 points just is a head scratcher and hard to get past.

The last few weeks I'm not so sure what to think.  It seems Prince may have built some things into this team that once those opportunities were lost he's lost them a bit.  It seemed to start after the OSU loss and really hit after ISU.  When some of the players and Prince talked about losing the opportunity to play for a north championship and meaningful games in november was followed up by the debacle in Lincoln you have to wonder.  Had he got these guys so hyped to be in contention that once that was lost he lost them?  And if so, can he get them back?   He also talked about how tough he knew this year was going to be after we lost at ISU.  How he knew that year 2 could/would be the most difficult.  You have t wonder if some of the players heard this, how they interpreted it.  I think its becoming apparent in year two that besides fixing the defense, one other major thing Prince needs to work on is handling the emotions of his team from week to week. 

I have no problem with having those high expectations, but you've got to balance it with the "get better every day" talk.  It seems that went out the window when some of the big things were lost.  It will be interesting to see how we finish and what kind of fight we put up the next two weeks.

I posted this in another thread and I think this is a big reason for our collapse these last few weeks.  In other words, Prince set them up to fail by having nothing for them to play for once they were out of division contention.  The team has looked completely disinterested these last two games as evidence.  It's all mental IMO.

[Bullfn33]

I've been worried since the OSU game.  We've played fairly bad in every game since, only Baylor's incompetence has helped.  The defese clearly has issues, but what bothers me almost as much is how inept our OL has looked the past 2 games, especially against NU.  We can't even block through simple line stunts.  It just looks like they have regressed.  And the defense, no matter what Prince has says, has quit.  It doesn't appear that they believe in themselves, their teammates, or the system and quite frankly, I think even they are coming to the same conclusion that we are which is that they aren't good enough players. 

Agreed.  Looking back, OSU definately seems to be a major turning point, and the only thing that helped mask it momentarily was Baylor.  You've got to be able to get your kids past losses like that and losing the opportunity at a north championship, etc.  73 points goes beyond injuries, players not fitting schemes, lack of talent, etc.

What concerns me is that the KSU players will begin to see this as a system issue (although as I said, I think even they might realize they suck, which is kind of a bad thing, at the end of the day you still want them to have confidence in their abilities even if they have none).

The problem is first and foremost the players, then the system not being able to utilize the current roster.  The case study for this was the Chiefs defense under Greg Robinson.  Basically, the fans, the players, the media said "it's Greg's system" when in actuality it was the crappy players in the system.  Then the system changes (enter Gunther) and guess what?  same results.  They start to add young talent and magically the defense gets better. My only point about the 3-4 at KSU is that I think it's much more difficult to recruit to than a 4-3, therefore it's going to take longer/be tougher to fix. 

I disagree.  It's not the system.  It's lack of depth due to injures which we rely on to play a lot of guys and the big one right now, mental edge.  How you line up is so overrated.  Defense is all about playing with fire, emotion, determination and swagger.  Like I've said, if you are playing with a defeated mindset, it doesn't &@#%ing matter how you line up, you are going to get burned.  We could use better players up front but what we had to work with in August could have been pretty damn good as evidence at Auburn and Texas.  In their minds they just don't have anything to play for right now and that's because Prince set them up to fail if they weren't in contention for the north.  It started with losing at OSU.  That pretty much eliminated them from contention unless a lot of things happened for in the luck department and then losing at ISU was the ultimate back breaker.  Well, that's JMO.

[Legore]

Big 12 coaches 1st 2 years conference record vs 2 years of previous coach

Stoops: 13-3 vs 5-11 +8
Brown: 12-4 vs 8-8 +4
Prince: 7-8 vs 4-12 +3
Pinkel: 5-11 vs 3-13 +2
Morris: 2-14 vs 1-15 +1
Mangino: 3-13 vs 3-13 0
Callahan: 7-9 vs 8-8 -1
Franchione: 7-9 vs 8-8 -1
Leach: 7-9 vs 9-7 -2
Gundy: 4-12 vs 8-8 -4
Hawkins: 5-10 vs 9-7 -4


Chizik: 2-5 vs 5-11 INC.



Now, why I am a bit worried?
1)Record will regress by about 1 game
2)Defense is slighty worse, than last year (where it wasn't very good)
3)Giving up 73...I don't know...that just screams red flag.

^^both of those are kind of a big deal^^


Prince had a real opportunity to show he can be a GREAT coach heading into the ISU and Nebraska combo. Despite, both being losses, he still shows promise imo if you look at the big picture. FOLKS YOU MUST CONCENTRATE ON THE BIG PICTURE HERE! Don't get caught up looking at one game. 

I've calmed down and come off the ledge on Prince.  I still have concerns which are pretty much the same as you have above but I got to thinking about the starting lineup on Saturday.

Prince is in only his second year and vs NU we had:
offensive starters
3 of 5 olineman were Prince recruits- Vires, Alesana, Liu
Quarterback was a Prince recruit- Freeman
RB was a Prince recruit- Johnson
TE was a Prince recruit-Mastrud
1 of 3 WR's was a Prince recruit- Murhphey
a total 7 offensive starters that were Prince recruits

defensive starters
3 of 3 d-line were Prince guys- Jackson, Manu, Balkcom
3 of 4 LB's were Prince guys- Houlik, Roland, Patterson- (not entirely sure if Walker started or Houlik or if Patterson or Childs started)
1 of 4 DB's was a Prince guy- Carney
a total of 7 defensive starters that were Prince recruits

Basically 14 of 22 starters were in their first or second year in the program.  I'm not sure any coach could overcome that.  I think we over achieved early in the season and then reality set in.  Injuries and our lack of depth killed us.   We lose some key guys next year but at the same time depth should be much better across the board and the team as a whole should be much more experienced at most positions. 

[ksu_FAN]

Basically 14 of 22 starters were in their first or second year in the program.  I'm not sure any coach could overcome that.  I think we over achieved early in the season and then reality set in.  Injuries and our lack of depth killed us.   We lose some key guys next year but at the same time depth should be much better across the board and the team as a whole should be much more experienced at most positions. 

Great point.  Obviously we're not "as good" as we were in Austin, but probably not "as bad" as we were in Lincoln.  Somewhere in between.  Unfortunately the gap between those two performances is so enormous its really hard to tell where we are at. 

And again, for me its just hard to get past giving up 73 points.  To a bad Nebraska team.  Without turning the ball over.

[rjd27]

It's tough to really know why, but I think the team overachieved in Year 1. With the coaching change, new styles and the poor o-line and the QB situation, the fact the team made it to a bowl was more than unexpected. Or should have been. Unfortunately, it set up this season to be somewhat of a failure. I thought coming in, the team would be improved, but might not have a better W-L record due to the schedule. Ultimately, I think it's played out that way.
The defensive struggles are a concern, and I don't think those are reparable at this point in the season. We can hope that astute recruiting will begin the mending process.

As for Prince, he is still very much learning (not that coaches ever stop). I think one thing he needs to learn, is to get out of his own way from time to time. Another poster mentioned how much Prince likes to talk and how well he does so, but Prince needs to learn when to say certain things and how to say them.
The coaches were right in focusing on winning the North Division and so forth. I think that's how most teams approach these things. I do wonder how Prince worked in bowl eligibility and importance to winning the North. If the two were in correlation, that might explain why the team appears to be deflated and let-down.
R.J.

[ksuno1stunner]

It really does sound like it's a matter of personel.  Just like Mangino, once he gets everything together, we should do well.  It looks like our defensive line recruiting might be coming together, hopefully we can get Felder to bulk up to 270-280.

[tmramrod91]

Assuming most people on this board played competitive sports at one time, most understand as a player after you're chance to do something big (like win a north title) is gone, all you really have left to play for is pride. There are so many bowl games now that they arent as big of a deal as they were in years past. RP built up winning championships so much to this team(which he should) that after that was gone, they didn't have a whole lot to play for.  Most of Snyder's teams never quit because they had big things to play for. '04 and '05 those teams pretty much quit on him once the season was lost (sans his final game).
Some of it comes down to x's and o's, but some of it has to fall squarely on the shoulder's of the players and their character to keep working/playing hard despite not having much left to play for.
Given time, it will become clear if he has the right stuff to be a HC.