Official Car Thread

[jeffy]

Dealers are for suckers.

Craigslist!

You're more likely to get a piece of crap car from a private party than you are a reputable dealer.

That's why you should check carfax, look at maintenance records, check online reviews for maintenance histories of that model vehicle, and most importantly, have it thoroughly inspected by a 3rd party.

And as a vehicle owner, you should keep every receipt for repairs and maintenance.  It's even a good idea to record gas fill-ups and maintenance/repairs in a log book within the vehicle.

[FBWillie]

The 1.9% rate is steep?  Wow. 

And I like new.  And because I can do it.   You want someone else sloppy seconds.. be my guest.

Even Better when you get 0% for 60 months with a free 5 year 60K Bumper to bumper warranty.

People that claim "buying new is stupid" are dumb because they don't know when to buy.

I got the warranty from Dodge for free 5 year 100K miles, and 7 years 100K for the Equinox.

The engine in the Durango threw a rod at 86K miles.   Paid $67.00 for a new engine.

You can't beat the deals of having a new car and getting amenities you wouldn't get with a used car.

Unless of course, you buy that crap the used car salesman tells you.

Japanese cars don't break.

Not entirely true.

Just mostly true.

And the ability to put 200,000 miles on a vehicle without much problem is a real nice perk.

If you're so "rich" mr. rod, just go in there with a handful of cash and bargain them down a hell of a lot more.

Cash is not king.  Car dealers actually make more money when you finance.  Walking in with a fist full of cash only makes them try and rip you off more. 

Whenever a car dearler is asking for cash down, it's either because you have horrible credit or because no bank in the world will loan you more than a car is worth i.e. you are paying too much for your car. 

In fact, the only person in the dealership that likes cash buyers is the car salesman because he gets paid the same regardless.... Only problem is that the salesman has almost nothing to do with how good of a deal you get; unless the sales manager has absolutetly no balls and he lets his staff walk all over him.

Just by playing the averages, I know that 99% of every one of you guys that says they know how to negotiate and know how to get a good deal on a car are completely full of crap. 

That's only because people are too intent on buying NOW.  Cash tells the dealer you are ready to spend and that you would be glad to spend it there, but can just as soon take it down the street to the next dealer.  If you've done your research, you know of several similar vehicles from different area dealers and you can play them against each other.

And don't ever tell them you are trading in an old vehicle until you have negotiated a price on the one you are purchasing.

It also tells them they aren't going to make crap on the back end, therefore they are less likely to negotiate the price of the vehicle.  They won't give a crap if you walk if they're not going to make any money on you.  Look, I've been a sales manager before, I know how they think.  They also assume that everyone is there, ready to purchase a vehicle right now; If you weren't, why the &@#% are you worth their time?  They get paid on commission; not hourly. 

The first mistake everyone makes is believing that the Sales Consultant is in charge of negotiating the deal.  Most salespeople have no idea what they own vehicles for, so how do they know how far they can negotiate?  They ask the sales manager... Which usually gets paid on all facets of the car deal, including financing - back end gross.  Showing them the opportunity of making back end gross for the dealership will make them more likely to cut the price of the car you're buying. 

Also, if you're dealing with a salesperson that has any kind of training, one of the first things they will ask you is if you are trading in a vehicle.   I can't speak for everyone, but several salespeople I've known will try to &@#% you over out of spite for lying to them; and they certainly won't feel bad about lying to you.  And I know just about every salesperson working down Kellog.  I know what you're thinking.... They're car salesman, they're lying anyway.  Not all of them are liars.  Hell, When I was selling cars, I told more people that they were in no position to be purchasing a car and they needed to stay in their crap box until they got it paid off; because they were going to be so upside down in their car, they wouldn't be able to get rid of it for the life of their loan.  I never lied to a customer, and I always made sure they were happy and comfortable with their purchase.  There was only one person I felt bad about selling a car to after the fact, and It's because it was a VTI transmission that GM was Testing and I didn't know it was a piece of crap at the time.  BTW, Don't ever buy a vehicle with a VTI transmission.

[jeffy]

It's also good to hide the fact that you will be paying cash.  The less you can tell the salesschmuck, the better.  You're buying a vehicle.  That's all they need to know.  If they need to know if you are financing, then "you are thinking about it."  It's all a game.  All salesman would rather make some money rather than no money.

[FBWillie]

Dealers are for suckers.

Craigslist!

You're more likely to get a piece of crap car from a private party than you are a reputable dealer.

That's why you should check carfax, look at maintenance records, check online reviews for maintenance histories of that model vehicle, and most importantly, have it thoroughly inspected by a 3rd party.

And as a vehicle owner, you should keep every receipt for repairs and maintenance.  It's even a good idea to record gas fill-ups and maintenance/repairs in a log book within the vehicle.

Fact: Car fax only guarantee's that they will show records for incidents that are reported.  How many people do you know that have wrecked or flooded a car only to not turn it into insurance?  It happens more than you think. Car Fax won't save you every time.   One thing Car fax does is show you how many owners have had the vehicle.  You can draw your own conclusions from that info. 

And there's a lot of online reviews that totally contradict themselves.  It basically comes down to you believing what your want to believe about a car you want to buy.  You can find negative reviews about any car on the road right now.  If it's a car you like, I bet you'll find reviews that will justify you liking it.

You should have the car checked out by a mechanic.  But know that you're more likely to be lied to by a private party than a car dealership as a car dealership has a reputation to uphold, and doesn't want to be involved with any legal action.  If a car is found out to be a lemon by a dealership, wrecked or flooded, a reputable dealership will send it to auction because it's not worth selling it to an individual and pissing someone off.  Certainly not being sued over.  What protection do you have from a private party lying to you?  Good faith?  Let me ask you this, have you ever got rid of a car that you would have bought yourself?  How often does than scenario come about?  I'd say 60% of people that buy a new car, buy it because their old one is about to crap out.  And it's even harder to find someone that keeps records of maintenance to their vehicle.

Paying some mechanic $100 to tell you what's wrong with a car you're about to buy doesn't give you any warranty that something isn't going to happen within the next month.  It only tells you what kind of condition the car is in now.  How is that any different than buying a car from a dealer?  whoops... except the dealer usually has at least some sort of lot warranty... even if it's only 1 month or so, its more than you get from private party; and a problem vehicle will act up in the early stages of you buying it... If it's later, it's probably something you did or failed to do.

Look, It's all about getting a quality car for a good price.  You're more likely to get a good price from a private party, but you're more likely to get a quality car from a dealership.  It's a hell of a lot easier to get a good price from a dealer than it is to find a quality car from a private party.   I know, I know; You've had so many great cars from private parties - that luck will run out and it will cost you $$.

But whatever, go on believing that Car Salesman are pieces of crap and their ability to make a living doesn't rest upon making sure you're a happy customer.

[FBWillie]

It's also good to hide the fact that you will be paying cash.  The less you can tell the salesschmuck, the better.  You're buying a vehicle.  That's all they need to know.  If they need to know if you are financing, then "you are thinking about it."  It's all a game.  All salesman would rather make some money rather than no money.

You're right.  Salesman would rather make some money than no money.  Unfortunately, the Salesman has little ability to negotiate price and certainly doesn't have any control over how good of a deal you get. The only thing showing cash does is get the Salesperson on your side when it comes to beating up the sales manager w/ negotiating.  That's really hit or miss, as some sales managers won't budge depending on how much they like that salesperson.

Forget Salespeople, you're just using the salesperson as an intermediary between you and the sales manager.

[Saulbadguy]

Ok, it looks like there is quite a bit of knowledge floating around this thread about buying a vehicle.  I'm in the market for a new one, and am looking for a small(ish) SUV.  Something like a Ford Escape, Hyundai Santa Fe, etc.  I don't want to spend a dime over $13,000. 

I'm going to look pretty hard this weekend, but is autotrader.com worth a crap?  Do dealers horribly inflate their prices on there?  It seems like they do.  How much negotiating room do I normally have when buying pre-owned?

[ECN]

cars.com is badass

[jeffy]

Ok, it looks like there is quite a bit of knowledge floating around this thread about buying a vehicle.  I'm in the market for a new one, and am looking for a small(ish) SUV.  Something like a Ford Escape, Hyundai Santa Fe, etc.  I don't want to spend a dime over $13,000. 

I'm going to look pretty hard this weekend, but is autotrader.com worth a crap?  Do dealers horribly inflate their prices on there?  It seems like they do.  How much negotiating room do I normally have when buying pre-owned?

Look at program cars.  Mostly new, but the first big hit of depreciation is gone.

There is more money to be made by a dealer on used cars than there is on new cars these days.  That should give you a lot more wiggle room.

I've never used any online site for purchasing, but looking up vehicles on various internet sites, like ebay, is always a good thing when it comes to negotiation.  edmunds.com is a good site for buyers of vehicles.  It's more representative of purchase prices than kbb.com.

[michigancat]

Ok, it looks like there is quite a bit of knowledge floating around this thread about buying a vehicle.  I'm in the market for a new one, and am looking for a small(ish) SUV.  Something like a Ford Escape, Hyundai Santa Fe, etc.  I don't want to spend a dime over $13,000. 

I'm going to look pretty hard this weekend, but is autotrader.com worth a crap?  Do dealers horribly inflate their prices on there?  It seems like they do.  How much negotiating room do I normally have when buying pre-owned?

craigslist.  I have rss feeds set up for cars I'm interested in below a certain price.  A lot of private sellers just want to get rid of cars ASAP and will put them on craigslist ridiculously cheap.

Also, get prefinanced through someone like Capital One.  They can give you a blank check that's good for 45 days so you can negotiate, and they have reasonable interest rates compared to the dealer scumbags.

[Saulbadguy]

http://briggsauto.com/used_vehicle_details.htm?vehicleId=26dabf324046381e01846aed97d6cd9b&url=&randomVideo=false%3fvehicleId=26dabf324046381e01846aed97d6cd9b

[chum1]

Scumbag dealer sales managers are desperate people.  And these scumbags have plenty of incentives to move inventory regardless of sales commission.  Their pride is your only real obstacle.

[FBWillie]

Make sure you have a car picked out before the new month begins, #1.  There's a lot of guys trying to hit Unit bonuses right before the month ends, and it would be worth it to them to make $100 on a car if it means the salesmanager and salesperson are going to get a little extra in their check with a bonus.

The dealership I work at doesn't mark up prices on Autotrader, but I know of several that do.  One thing it does usually do, depending on who maintains the inventory, is not stay up to date with the vehicle.  A lot of dealers will ask way to much for a car when it first hits the lot, and the price will slowly drop until it's gone. Autotrader gets these vehicles in their database by sending out one of their employees to photograph and list the vehicle as a service to the dealer.  From that point on, it is up to the dealer to list any updates (price changes) to the vehicle or remove it when it is sold. Well, when it is listed on Autotrader, It's listed at the initial price.  The price of the vehicle it could have dropped in price from the time it was listed to the time you saw it.  If you find a vehicle on Autotrader, drive to the dealership and act like you never saw it on Autotrader.  If you contact the dealer through Autotrader, the Sales Associate will know that you are looking at a price that may be higher than what is on it now, and may go throw the higher price on the car before you come to look at it.  I would Use it as a search tool and nothing else.


Here's a short list for SUV's w/ positives and negatives:

I would stay away from any Hyundai that's from 03-05; They're pieces of crap and don't hold value for anything.  From what I've seen though; Hyundai has really started to change over the last two years and Hyundai is becoming a respectable car.  An 07-08 would prob do just fine.

I don't know much about the Escape, but I do know that ford has a reputation of building one vehicle to run like a tank, and another made to fall apart within a year.  Example: Ford Ranger, prob the best car they ever made; Ford Taurus, If it ran long enough for you to ever get in a wreck, you'd prob die.  Sorry I don't know anything about the escape, It's been too long since I've had to sell cars and stay up to date with competitors. 

Honda CRV: Great car, but if you find one for $13, it prob has a ton of miles on it.

Chevy Equinox/Pontiac Torrent/Saturn VUE: All the same car really, Saturn's V6 from 04-06 is actually a 3.5L Honda Engine with ass loads of Horse Power and will get you 25MPG on the Highway.  The 4cyl that each of these vehicles use won't get you much better gas mileage than that.  DO NOT BUY AN AUTOMATIC 4CYL SATURN VUE FROM 03-06.  It has a Transmission (VTI) in it that WILL go out on you before 100,000 miles.  The negatives of each of these cars are they're kind of rinky dink interiors.  Not that anything will go wrong with them, but you'll probably have a lot of road noise, squeeks, rattles, and stuff from the interior of the vehicle that will be annoying.  They're good cars and a great option.  I love my Saturn VUE. 

Toyota Rav4;  It's a good car, comfortable; but it's going to look like crap in a year.  Toyota uses the thinnest sheet metal possible on the car.  You can dent it by pressing your thumb in the side of it.  May not be important, but if you're planning on selling it in the future, this will effect the value.  Also, like the CRV, if you find one for 13K, it also prob has a ton of miles on it.

[FBWillie]

Scumbag dealer sales managers are desperate people.  And these scumbags have plenty of incentives to move inventory regardless of sales commission.  Their pride is your only real obstacle.

The only dealers that are scum-bags are the ones that lie; Unfortunately, Lying is a characteristic that isn't only in Car dealerships.  If you can't figure out what dealers are scum bags and what ones are not, than you shouldn't be buying a car.

[FBWillie]

Ok, it looks like there is quite a bit of knowledge floating around this thread about buying a vehicle.  I'm in the market for a new one, and am looking for a small(ish) SUV.  Something like a Ford Escape, Hyundai Santa Fe, etc.  I don't want to spend a dime over $13,000. 

I'm going to look pretty hard this weekend, but is autotrader.com worth a crap?  Do dealers horribly inflate their prices on there?  It seems like they do.  How much negotiating room do I normally have when buying pre-owned?

Look at program cars.  Mostly new, but the first big hit of depreciation is gone.

There is more money to be made by a dealer on used cars than there is on new cars these days.  That should give you a lot more wiggle room.

I've never used any online site for purchasing, but looking up vehicles on various internet sites, like ebay, is always a good thing when it comes to negotiation.  edmunds.com is a good site for buyers of vehicles.  It's more representative of purchase prices than kbb.com.

Be careful with program cars, Alot of those are rental cars from enterprise; and anything with any mileage on it is prob. in worse shape than you'd imagine.  If it has pretty low miles, you won't find one that the dealer owns for less than $13,000

[chum1]

Scumbag dealer sales managers are desperate people.  And these scumbags have plenty of incentives to move inventory regardless of sales commission.  Their pride is your only real obstacle.

The only dealers that are scum-bags are the ones that lie; Unfortunately, Lying is a characteristic that isn't only in Car dealerships.  If you can't figure out what dealers are scum bags and what ones are not, than you shouldn't be buying a car.

Well, what's the work for trying to screw somone over without lying to them?  That's the one I want.  Has your paycheck ever been a bit short?  Don't lie, dude.  Dealers are pure evil.

[FBWillie]

Scumbag dealer sales managers are desperate people.  And these scumbags have plenty of incentives to move inventory regardless of sales commission.  Their pride is your only real obstacle.

The only dealers that are scum-bags are the ones that lie; Unfortunately, Lying is a characteristic that isn't only in Car dealerships.  If you can't figure out what dealers are scum bags and what ones are not, than you shouldn't be buying a car.

Well, what's the work for trying to screw somone over without lying to them?  That's the one I want.  Has your paycheck ever been a bit short?  Don't lie, dude.  Dealers are pure evil.

Not all of them are man.  I've worked with bad ones.  I'm currently working for one that's not bad.  Not saying everyone walks out of here with a great deal. Car dealers are going to make $$ on you.  They can do it without lying.  If a customer walks in, pays too much for a car without ever questioning the price, who's at fault?  The dealer for asking to much? or the Customer that made a bad decision. The problem is, that people don't see the service in what dealerships provide.  They think they can get equal quality from buying from someone else.  The truth is that reputable dealers are able to charge more because they have a product that is better.  They're there for you if you have trouble with the vehicle and they'll stand behind their product. And they help you find a car that is right for you; searching the globe over is not for everyone. 

Not only that, but how many people selling their cars private party, do an inspection on their car before they sell it to you, and fix anything that needs to be fixed?  A private party isn't going to get sued for selling you a piece of crap and lying to you; but that's the risk dealers run for lying to you.   

As for feeling like they're making too much $ on you; that's all on the customer.  There's not a business in this world that will try to convince a customer to not make a hasty decision.  Is XBOX ripping you off because they are selling a product for $500 that only cost them $50 in parts and production?  Why is it different with car dealers?  In fact, anymore with new cars, you can go online and see the exact price for what the dealer owns the vehicle for by looking at the invoice price on the manufacturers website. 

Bottom line, A car is worth what someone will pay for it.  Dealers will pay less for your trade, and customers will pay more for a car that's been inspected, certified, and backed by a warranty.  Somewhere in between is where all the money is made.

[chum1]

So you admit that dealers knowingly ask more for cars than what they're worth?  Evil scumbags.

[FBWillie]

You can look at it that way; but if you're willing to pay that amount, than isn't that the actual worth of the vehicle.  Something is only worth what people will pay; and there's an ass for every seat.  Just because I think it's overpriced doesn't mean someone else will think it's a good price.  That's the thing with cars.  There's no clear cut absolute price list for a used car.  Kelly Blue Book can be completely different from Black Book and N.A.D.A; yet the vehicle will be going for a completely different price from all of those other references at auctions.  There is no Black line between what is too much and what is not enough for a car.  It all depends on who is buying it and what they will pay.  If you won't pay what they're asking, they have the choice to come down to your level, or wait until someone else looks at the car.  Some one may come in, lay down and buy the same car you were offering less for with no complaints about the price.  Happens every day.

I'm not telling people that every car dealer is a saint, and there are definately places to stay away from; but It's a hell of a lot easier to know something about someone that has been doing business for years rather than, Grandma Smith that is selling her Buick Skylark that only has 20K miles on it that she "only drove to church in back in"  How do you know that Grandma smith isn't a crazy glue sniffer.  "building model airplanes" she says.  Well I'm not buying it. 

[ksuno1stunner]

Just buy a lexus, and nothing will ever go wrong.

[Saulbadguy]

How do you know that Grandma smith isn't a crazy glue sniffer.  "building model airplanes" she says.  Well I'm not buying it. 

[Saulbadguy]

Just buy a lexus, and nothing will ever go wrong.

[chum1]

Pretty much the entire auto industry is corrupt.

[Saulbadguy]

Pretty much the entire auto industry is corrupt.

[FBWillie]

Pretty much the entire auto industry is corrupt.

What industry isn't?

[Dan Rydell]

Learned to drive on:



College:



Except silver.

Law school / 1st job:



Except silver with a glass pack and split exhaust.  My roommate used to say when I would pull into the parking lot it sounded like "hell's dobermans being unleashed."

2nd job (now):

[Kat Kid]

bslimz:  why would a shiny new law degree inspire you to drive the most hillbilly truck you could bring yourself to indulge in?

[swish1]

What kind of cars do you guy's drive?

pics if you have them.  i'll post one of my 92 Honda Prelude in a bit.
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z74/odiotodo/asdfa314005.jpg?t=1190856703

i also drive a 92 prelude.  i didnt bother to read any farther in this thread than that.

[ksuno1stunner]

Also; The only car that I would honestly say is better than any other is Honda.   Toyota is crap... sorry but it is.  They were great cars in the 90's, but they are now crap.   KIA is a Korean piece of crap.  You're not an american if you buy a car built by a korea where the Name of the vehicle is also an acronym for Killed In Action.  Lexus  what Toyota used to be; nice cars.  But they are way overpriced for what you get.  You want a nice car and $$ is of no meaning to you?  Buy a Honda.

As for American made cars.  Alot of it is crap.  But it's all the same. 
Example: Saturn made the VUE after it was successful it was then turned into the Chevy Equinox and the Pontiac Torrent 2 years later.  They're identical cars.  Same engine, same transmission; same suspension; hell even the same interior. 

Chevy Impala; made in Kansas City.  The exact same assembly line as the Saturn Aura, in fact they come off the assembly line in the order of Chevy then Saturn, then Chevy then Saturn, etc. etc.   Same damn car, except The Aura is winning awards and the Chevy is not?  Odd.... 

The New Large SUV that GM is making?  Pontiac, Chevy, and Saturn all have that platform, same engines. 

But the Large SUV and the IMPALA and the Aura's are the only good cars that GM is putting out right now. 

Cobalt? crap.  Saturn ION? It's the same car as the Cobalt... what do you think... crap.   Vue's and whatever Chevy and Pontiac replaces their midsize SUV with next year?  Looks like it's going to be crap.  Minivan's that Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, and Saturn made for 2 years before they were discontinued?  crap. 

Ford does the same damn thing; everyone does. I'd go on, but you get the idea.  hell I doubt any of you are reading this any more.   

And by the way, I've seen just as many Honda's, which I believe is the best car on the road, not make it past 100k as I have GM's and Fords.  Everyday I see GM vehicles over 200,000 miles.   Hell, I saw a 91 Saturn SL1 with over 300,000 miles on it last month.  All original drivetrain.   Nothing but a few minor fixes and regular maintanence.   Know how the guy did it?  He took care of his car. 

How is Toyota crap?!?!?!

[Dan Rydell]

bslimz:  why would a shiny new law degree inspire you to drive the most hillbilly truck you could bring yourself to indulge in?

Got it in law school, actually.  A Jeep Wrangler totaled my first truck while it was sitting in a parking lot off Mass Street.  Wanted a Dodge Ram since the redesign when I was in high school, but couldn't afford it then.  Also wanted to drive a loud fracking truck for a while, especially around Lawrence, and figured that was about my last chance.   Figured I'd only drive it until I got my first job.

[FBWillie]

How is Toyota crap?!?!?!

Depends entirely on what year it is; If it's after 03 or so, it isn't what it used to be.  It's still nicer than a lot of cars out there.  The mid 90's to early 00's were good cars. 

Seriously; go up to a car dealership, find an 04-06 corolla and lightly press your thumb into the side of it.   You'll leave a dent.  That's the way the entire car seems to be built.  really "chincy"