Brian Butler

[Fausto]

"Why the obsession with Butler?"

Great question to ask yourself.  Why the obsession?

Why all the articles, why the website where he is prominantly featured with *his* recruits etc. etc.?  It seems there are obsessions beyond just this board and a few posters...some (one?) of which will go so far with their *obesssion* to feature them in their posting profile.

Yes, to answer the question before it comes out...I am obsessed with Richard Cheney!   

[mjrod]

First of all, the NCAA can't send you to prison.   They aren't the government.   In the case of Albert Means, there are laws about racketeering which his case fell under.

Secondly, as you alluded to earlier that there is no integrity in the recruiting process, why would having another avenue for such activity be a good thing?   I can agree that there is nothing to state such abuse would happen, but you never know.

I'll say it again, I'm not knocking Butler, just this kind of set up.   If he does it, others will.   Think of the future Rusty, not just this one.

[Fausto]

"It would be sad to find out that KSU could lose a recruit because this represented a violation of NCAA rules."

This, to me, goes so far past just K-State.

Hypothetical:

Butler:  "Gee, let's see what is in Arthur Brown's mail today.  Three letters from Alabama, one from USC, two from Florida, three from North Carolina, one from K-State"

later on in the day...

"Arthur, here is your mail for today.  Letters from Bama, SC, Florida and K-State.  Hey, I notice you haven't received any mail recently from North Carolina.  Maybe they have moved to other targets.  I really didn't like them when you and I visited the campus, it may be time to look elsewhere".

Something is deeply wrong with that simple of a hypothetical.

[mjrod]

According to Rusty, this happens at schools all the time.   According to KSU4ME, it's an apparent policy at JUCO's.  Nothing in the recruiting process has any integrity, so this really isn't a big deal.

I have no problem with it either if the hypothetical never happens.  I'm sure Butler recognizes that despite no oversight of being a proxy agent, he'll do nothing to keep himself from losing his NCAA certification to host events.

[FBWillie]

WHO CARES!?!

[mjrod]

WHO CARES!?!

OH GREAT!!

Another &@#%ing PETA barrage!!

What the hell did I ever do to you?

[catzacker]

According to Rusty, this happens at schools all the time.   According to KSU4ME, it's an apparent policy at JUCO's.  Nothing in the recruiting process has any integrity, so this really isn't a big deal.

I have no problem with it either if the hypothetical never happens.  I'm sure Butler recognizes that despite no oversight of being a proxy agent, he'll do nothing to keep himself from losing his NCAA certification to host events.

The oversight is there.  If Butler gets a job/money as part of the recruitment of the Browns, and the NCAA catches this, then he's in trouble with the NCAA.  The same goes for a parent or a HS coach; however, if he throws away the mail of the Browns he'll have to deal with the USPS. 

[steve dave]

OH GREAT!!

Another frackfing PETA barrage!!

What the hell did I ever do to you?

Ha, I remember when that Jackie Verago hairy pit lady from Peta e-mailed me this:

All beings tremble before violence. All fear death, all love life. See
yourself in others. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do? -
Buddha

[michigancat]

First of all, the NCAA can't send you to prison.   They aren't the government.   In the case of Albert Means, there are laws about racketeering which his case fell under.

The KSHSAA can't send you to prison either.

Secondly, as you alluded to earlier that there is no integrity in the recruiting process, why would having another avenue for such activity be a good thing?   I can agree that there is nothing to state such abuse would happen, but you never know.

This is a good thing because it:

1)  Gives Kansas High School recruits a structured training program.  (Some KS HS's have great training programs, most don't due to KSHSAA restrictions.)

2)  Gives Kansas High School recruits added visibility.  Not just the elites, but those that might have been overlooked by major programs could get noticed, and those that were destined to Juco could go to Wyoming, Air Force, or I-AA's.

3)  It gives KSU a standing relationship with a mentor for players from all around Wichita.  If say...Bluestem High has a D1 prospect that uses Butler's services, KSU has a head start on the recruit because they already have an "in" to gauge interest before investing time and money building a relationship with Bluestem's coaches.  Heck, at the very least it makes it easier to get contact info for Kansas players.

"It would be sad to find out that KSU could lose a recruit because this represented a violation of NCAA rules."

This, to me, goes so far past just K-State.

Hypothetical:

Butler:  "Gee, let's see what is in Arthur Brown's mail today.  Three letters from Alabama, one from USC, two from Florida, three from North Carolina, one from K-State"

later on in the day...

"Arthur, here is your mail for today.  Letters from Bama, SC, Florida and K-State.  Hey, I notice you haven't received any mail recently from North Carolina.  Maybe they have moved to other targets.  I really didn't like them when you and I visited the campus, it may be time to look elsewhere".

Something is deeply wrong with that simple of a hypothetical.

Yeah, you left out the part about Arthur Brown getting letters from UNC sent to his house and kicking Butler to the curb.

I have no problem with it either if the hypothetical never happens.  I'm sure Butler recognizes that despite no oversight of being a proxy agent, he'll do nothing to keep himself from losing his NCAA certification to host events.

Could you retype this in english, please?

Thanks.

[mjrod]

First of all, the NCAA can't send you to prison.   They aren't the government.   In the case of Albert Means, there are laws about racketeering which his case fell under.

The KSHSAA can't send you to prison either.

Thanks.  Glad you here to help clarify what I already clarified for you earlier.

Secondly, as you alluded to earlier that there is no integrity in the recruiting process, why would having another avenue for such activity be a good thing?   I can agree that there is nothing to state such abuse would happen, but you never know.

This is a good thing because it:

1)  Gives Kansas High School recruits a structured training program.  (Some KS HS's have great training programs, most don't due to KSHSAA restrictions.)

2)  Gives Kansas High School recruits added visibility.  Not just the elites, but those that might have been overlooked by major programs could get noticed, and those that were destined to Juco could go to Wyoming, Air Force, or I-AA's.

3)  It gives KSU a standing relationship with a mentor for players from all around Wichita.  If say...Bluestem High has a D1 prospect that uses Butler's services, KSU has a head start on the recruit because they already have an "in" to gauge interest before investing time and money building a relationship with Bluestem's coaches.  Heck, at the very least it makes it easier to get contact info for Kansas players.

Interesting.  You're a big cheerleader for all the wrong reasons.  You and I both know this was all started for the marketing aspect of getting kids in Wichita recognized for outstanding players.  I have no issue with that.  It if was specifically an avenue that promoted kids to anyone, then it would be fine. 

When you start to say it gives "KSU standing" that's where you should have stopped.  It shouldn't give KSU standing because we're nice to Butler.    I think that's where abuse of power starts to take hold.   We could essentially corner the market and use Butler as a means to prevent other schools from getting involved in the process.  Is that really fair?   It could just as easily change if KSU decides not to promote Butler and he decides to funnel to other schools.   That's where your conflict is, Rusty.   You promote the idea well, but you seem not to ask the hard questions of what happens if.  KSU should be allowed to have access to the players regardless of Butler as would any school for the services of a kid.   There should be no influence of standing involved.

I have no problem with it either if the hypothetical never happens.  I'm sure Butler recognizes that despite no oversight of being a proxy agent, he'll do nothing to keep himself from losing his NCAA certification to host events.

Could you retype this in english, please?

Thanks.

Sure.

I have no problem with it (Butler's program of intercepting mail) either if the hypothetical never happens.  I'm sure Butler recognizes that despite no oversight (from the NCAA or other sports group) of being a proxy agent (for recruits), he'll do nothing to keep himself from losing his NCAA certification to host events (such as Nike Sparq Camp).

[michigancat]

Interesting.  You're a big cheerleader for all the wrong reasons.  You and I both know this was all started for the marketing aspect of getting kids in Wichita recognized for outstanding players.  I have no issue with that.  It if was specifically an avenue that promoted kids to anyone, then it would be fine. 

When you start to say it gives "KSU standing" that's where you should have stopped.  It shouldn't give KSU standing because we're nice to Butler.    I think that's where abuse of power starts to take hold.   We could essentially corner the market and use Butler as a means to prevent other schools from getting involved in the process. Is that really fair?

That's part of recruiting!  You build relationships with coaches in the hope that they will help you land recruits in the future.  Of course it's fair (not so much funneling or preventing access to other schools, but a head start), just like having a good relationship with the coach at Rockhurst is fair, having a good relationship with Curtis Malone of DC Assault is fair, having a good relationship with the Brown's parents is fair.  With any coach or parent you run the risk of pissing them off and "funneling" their kids elsewhere. 

When you start to say it gives "KSU standing" that's where you should have stopped.  It shouldn't give KSU standing because we're nice to Butler.    I think that's where abuse of power starts to take hold.   We could essentially corner the market and use Butler as a means to prevent other schools from getting involved in the process.  Is that really fair?   It could just as easily change if KSU decides not to promote Butler and he decides to funnel to other schools.   That's where your conflict is, Rusty.   You promote the idea well, but you seem not to ask the hard questions of what happens if.  KSU should be allowed to have access to the players regardless of Butler as would any school for the services of a kid.   There should be no influence of standing involved.

Reread what I said.  I said "standing relationship".  What that means is we'll be there every year with Brian Butler (assuming he's successful).  USC, Florida, Notre Dame, etc. won't.  We should be rewarded for that relationship.  Not by "funneling", but by developing a rapport with kids earlier in the recruiting process.  Those schools will have a huge advantage with coaches closer to their campuses, why shouldn't we have the same close to home?

Butler doesn't have to act as "proxy" or a "funnel"

[pissclams]

[steve dave]

You know what sucks about threads like this?  When it's at the top of the board with a new post you have to check to make sure you're not missing anything.  You know it's going to be MJ, Rusty, etc. getting after each other with extremely well thought out and long/boring posts but, you just can't take the chance that it could be something interesting/funny/etc. and you have to look anyway. 

[Fausto]

"Butler doesn't have to act as "proxy" or a "funnel""

And yet, that appears to be what he is doing.  Why?

[michigancat]

"Butler doesn't have to act as "proxy" or a "funnel""

And yet, that appears to be what he is doing.  Why?

Insecurity/ignorance/excuse making from people that see things that way.